LDS Freedom Forum

The General Authorities have been exhorting members of the Church for many decades to store a year’s worth (or more) of food, clothing, and, where possible, fuel.

Why?

Certainly such a supply would be handy in case of job loss. However, the cost of food is only about 18% of the total cost needed to support a family each month (in my family’s case at least). Without savings, it wouldn’t take very many months for a family’s financial situation to become desperate. Let’s say that after 5 months, they ran out of money completely. Sure, they’d still have 7 month’s worth of food available, but they’d still need to do something and quick or face extreme financial difficulties. The food is not going to save them completely from that type of situation.

Then why have a year’s supply of food, clothing, and fuel?

Let’s first figure out what type of fuel we’re talking about here. Gasoline? So you can go to work every day for a year when almost no one else is able to? Businesses would shut down if almost no one showed up. How much gasoline would you need to store to last for a year? And at what cost? And what about safety concerns? And besides that, if gasoline is not available from gas stations, and therefore almost no vehicles are even out on the roads, then there would be no trucks shipping food to grocery stores, and society as we know it would then cease to exist. More on food shortage later.

We’re obviously not talking about gasoline. We’re talking about the type of fuel you would need to (1) cook food, (2) keep warm, and (3) provide light. Fuels like wood, charcoal, propane, butane, etc., and maybe even solar power with the right equipment.

Now why in the world would the Church recommend that we store fuel if we can just hunker down in our own houses and use electricity for cooking, warmth, and light? It’s because we won’t be using electricity. Either the electricity will be off for a very long time at our houses, or else we’ll be at some other location where no electricity is available. But it wouldn’t make sense to go somewhere else if the electricity was still available in our houses. So why not just stay put if the electricity is still on? And for that matter, why not just stay put in our houses, even if the electricity is off for months? That’s also addressed in the food shortage section below and in subsequent sections. You’ll see that no matter what scenario occurs, you’re most likely going to leave your houses anyway.

Food Shortage

Food shortage (famine) occurs when trucks stop delivering food to the grocery stores. There are all kinds of events that could cause the trucks to stop shipping food from the distribution centers to the grocery stores. All of these events, though apparently unlikely according to some people, are still possible. To name a few:

- Earth’s orbit goes through a comet’s tail, creating a hailstorm that destroys the crops of the earth (D&C 29:16).
- The great earthquake (Rev 6:12-17) hits, breaking up the roads.
- Yellowstone erupts, spewing ash on most of the United States and ruining food supplies.
- A huge asteroid hits the earth (nuff sed).
- The economy collapses, shutting down trucking companies.
- Chinese and Russian troops invade the United States, halting traffic.
- One or more EMP (electromagnetic pulse) events occur, ruining computer chips and therefore all computers, and therefore most vehicles and shipping.

The worst case scenario is that one or more of these events (or other events not even listed here) cause the power grid to be shut off everywhere indefinitely:

- Trucking companies would shut down, not having the ability to generate shipping schedules and reimbursement for their shipments.
- Grocery store shelves would then be emptied in a matter of hours (at those stores that had generators and were able to sell goods).
- At grocery stores without power, looting would cause the stores to be emptied anyway.
- Water treatment plants would not function, and therefore not provide fresh water to the public.
- Banks would not function: none of your account information would be available, so you couldn’t withdraw any money, and all your savings would be lost.
- No companies would stay in business; no one would be going to work or getting paid.

Okay, let’s say that the electricity didn’t go out after all, but that for some reason, trucks were still not able to deliver food to grocery stores. The food would soon run out, and rather than going to work at companies, people would spend their time looking for food. Businesses would still shut down. The economy would collapse even worse, and society would collapse.

So why have we been directed to obtain a year’s supply of food, clothing, and fuel?

Because we won’t be able to go to grocery stores. I’ve presented some scenarios below.

Scenario #1: Share Your Food

The grocery stores are empty, so no one is able to buy anything. It doesn’t take long for neighbors to find out which neighbors have food. The hungry neighbors go and ask for food. Gladly, the kind benefactor gives them a box of #10 cans, or a super pail. Other neighbors come in droves, and within days (if not within hours), their year’s supply is completely gone, except for a few cans, which they’ve decided to keep for themselves. They feel great about being able to help their neighbors, until their food is gone. They are then forced to leave their house and look for food or find a place of refuge. Either way, they end up leaving their house.

Scenario #2: Protect Your Food at Your House

No food exists at the grocery stores, and some individual has decided to set up a 24/7 perimeter around his house, protecting his precious food stores from would-be looters.

After a few weeks, after hunger has set in with a vengeance on the general populace, and people become desperate, they will do ANYTHING to obtain food, especially if their minds are filled with the images of their children lying on the floor, weakened, pained looks on their faces, and their faint voices pleading to their parents for something to eat.

Warning: The following paragraphs contain extremely graphic details of the horrors of such a scenario. Squeamish people should not read them and should instead skip to Scenario #3 below.

Suddenly some neighbors hear the sound of gunfire in their neighborhood. It’s like music to their ears. They know, instinctively, that food is nearby. Why else would there be rifle shots? It’s because someone is attempting to protect their food. People all over the neighborhood rush to the source of the sounds, like vultures circling around a new carcass. And they bring their own rifles and clubs and other weapons with them. The house with the food becomes immediately apparent, and one man with a rifle finds a spot on a nearby tool shed, waiting for the right moment. Then someone throws a rock through a window, and the home owner, the one trying to protect his food, fires his weapon from a hiding spot inside. But his hiding spot is not good enough, and the sniper on the tool shed gets his cross-hairs on the homeowner’s head. It’s a done deal. Well, at least the home owner was able to die a martyr, you might say, trying to defend his family. But then three dozen hungry, crazed, desperate men descend on that house and find the wife and daughters and sons unprotected. The sons are swiftly shot or clubbed to death. The wife and daughters, no matter what age, are …well, you get the idea… Oops. So much for the man of the house protecting and defending his family. He ended up leaving his house anyway, ending up in the spirit world. “Oh, c’mon,” you might say, “I would hide better than that, and I wouldn’t get hurt, no matter how many people surrounded my house.” You wanna bet? You’re underestimating their desperation.

The dozens of men now in the house run around looking for the food, like a demented Easter egg hunt. What does NOT happen next is that when they find the food storage room downstairs, they join in yelling “Hooray!” and then form a train, passing the cans and boxes and pails to each other out of the room, down the hall, up the stairs, and out on the front lawn, building a neat pile, which is then divided up evenly among the participants. Oh no. That’s NOT what happens. What happens is absolute violence and chaos. Those who find the food storage room first and attempt to grab a couple items from the shelves are accosted by others just entering the room. Everyone attempts to grab food and prevent everyone else from leaving with any of it. The #10 cans become weapons as they are smashed into the faces of others. Still other people, entering the melee and wielding clubs, bring them down on the faces and arms of those holding food, breaking bones and splattering blood everywhere. Broken bodies lie on the floor of the food storage room, getting trampled by still more people forcing their way in, filling the room like sardines. After most of the people in the room are either wounded severely or killed, one individual is able to remove a #10 can from the room and is met in the hall by still more looters, who rip the can from his grasp. The can falls on the floor and rolls, waiting to be snatched up like a fumbled football. Another man in the hall scoops up the can and runs for the stairs, hoping to score a touchdown before being thrown down by anyone who can grab him. He makes it up the stairs, but his head is then bashed in with a metal pipe by another guy, who was waiting behind the ledge. One of the daughters, still lying on the floor upstairs and sobbing uncontrollably from her wounds, is a witness to the brutal murder at the top of the stairs. The man drops the metal pipe, seizes his trophy of food, and runs out the front door, only to be shot in the chest. A sniper waiting patiently across the street allows people to enter the house, but allows no one to leave. The house has become a Roach Motel.

People who are usually very nice can do unthinkable things if they’re starving, such as during this famine in Samaria:

2 Kings 6:28-29
28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.
29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

Scenario #3: Sign of the Beast

In this scenario, food is still available at grocery stores, but the only way to obtain it is by using currency that has been inscribed with the Sign of the Beast. True believers do not want to sell themselves out by using that currency at the grocery store, so they use their own food storage for a year.

Other families in the neighborhood do not have food storage, so they end up giving in and using the currency at the grocery store, not even considering the idea to raid other people’s houses for food, because it’s so plentiful at the store.

So the true believers just stay in their houses and hunker down and eat their own food storage until… Until when? Until they run out of food? How long will the Sign of the Beast be in control? Just 1 year? 2 years? 3 1/2 years? Longer? Will the true believers finally decide to take what food they can transport and go to Jackson County? If not to Jackson County, then where? The Church would need to instruct them where to go to obtain more food so they wouldn’t be required to use the currency inscribed with the Sign of the Beast. Sooner or later, they end up leaving their houses and fleeing to a refuge for safety and food.

Scenario #4: Take Your Food to a Place of Refuge

The grocery stores are empty, but you don’t need what’s at the stores, because you’ve got your year’s supply of food and clothing and fuel. Also, every neighbor who lives in your vicinity has at least a little food that they brought with them (because they were trying to follow the counsel of the prophet), so everyone feels a spirit of cooperation and therefore everyone works together, shares items, and lives (at least a partial version of) the law of consecration.

There are roving bands of looters and thugs who are looking for food throughout the countryside. If they even happen to find your collection of neighbors who have food, they would most likely attempt to attack. However, they will get nowhere in their designs. Your location has the protection of the Lord. Also, your neighborhood has the correct type of perimeter set up, not with a couple of men with rifles, but with dozens of men, able to handle any type of attack.

This scenario requires all those with food, clothing, and fuel to transport it (or have it transported through a very well planned and organized process, which the Church would have already set up, of course) to designated places of refuge, BEFORE anything really bad hits the fan. Before? Yes, because if any type of catastrophic event happened first (like those I listed above that could cause a food shortage), then it may be too late:

- If the roads are broken up by a great earthquake or an asteroid, people may not travel very far.
- If the U.S. is invaded, foreign forces could prevent travel.
- If one or more EMPs is used, most vehicles would be ruined, and transport of all that food and fuel would be very difficult.
- If martial law or a quarantine is in effect, soldiers could seal off exits from the cities and towns and prevent people from leaving.
- If the economy has collapsed and gas stations are not open, there wouldn’t be enough gasoline available to transport the goods and people to places of refuge.
- If thousands of hungry, desperate people are roaming around, looking for food, they will notice your family attempting to leave with your vehicles crammed with supplies, and they will use any means (such as shooting at you or putting up a blockade) to stop your vehicles and take your food.
- And last, but certainly not least, when members of the Church (in appropriate locations) are asked to quit their jobs and relocate to a place of refuge BEFORE anything bad has happened at that location, it will be the ultimate test of faith and obedience, and therefore only those filled with the Spirit, the pure in heart, will heed the call and go, while those who criticize the direction from the prophet and hurl scorn and derision against those who are leaving will be left to wallow in the future chaos.

Will ALL locations need to relocate eventually? I believe so, because the prophesied destructions and calamities are not limited to a few geographic areas. They will happen EVERYWHERE by some means or another, eventually. There will be an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked. [D&C 63:54]

Summary

No matter what scenario you choose, you will most likely end up leaving your house, no matter if the electricity is still on or not. I prefer Scenario #4 as the best way to leave.

If anyone reading this post knows of a way to make it through the prophesied destructions and collapse of society and the resulting shortage of food, but still stay in their house for at least a year, surrounded by hungry neighbors, then I’d really like to hear your ideas.

If you say that all your neighbors are really nice, and you would all work together to stay alive for a whole year, then you’re either a very lucky and rare individual, or you have no idea what your neighbors would do if they were starving.

I have never subscribed to RKY’s AVOW site, nor am I planning to. I have, however, read some writings published by RKY, and while I do agree with the idea that we should all be prepared, I am saddened that there are some people who have gone to such extremes in their preparation. I would not consider myself to be extreme in my physical preparations, even though I do have a vivid imagination about what COULD happen.

It took me 13 months to methodically acquire the few things (especially food) I had put on my checklist (to fill in the gaps). And I didn’t even start on the checklist until March 2009, well after Sarah Menet’s warning that if you didn’t have your food storage by April 2008, it would be too late. And I did not sell furniture to obtain it. And my inventory does NOT include foam clothing, a super duper tent, a 4x4 truck, and a horse trailer to boot. Yikes! In fact, I’m putting in a new kitchen floor and painting the outside of my house, even though a collapse could be imminent. If I get to enjoy the improvements around my house for a few weeks or months, great. If I get to enjoy them for many, many years, great. Life doesn’t stop because of speculation. But I am willing to leave on a moment’s notice, if necessary.

I am also disturbed that the following ideas seem to be perpetuated by some individuals who have submitted material to RKY:
- ONLY those with a full year’s supply can be gathered to a place of refuge
- the ONLY requirement to be admitted to a place of refuge is a year’s supply, no matter what type of person they are

These are obviously false claims, and no one should believe something so outrageous. Please do not let such claims by a few (hopefully) well-meaning but (terribly) bumbling individuals instill doubt in your mind concerning the need to be prepared with at least some food, clothing, and fuel. Having something is so much better than having nothing.

Kudos to all of you who spend a few minutes here and there, checking your lists, and are diligently acquiring a year’s supply, little by little, but at the same time loving the Lord and your neighbors, being a benefit to your fellow beings and your families, and finding a balance for everything important.

You are the ones who will recognize the promptings of the Holy Ghost when it’s time to leave, and you will follow those promptings and sing praises to the Lord because of His boundless mercy, for helping you avoid needless suffering. Your trials will still be difficult, but you will depend on the Lord, and He will help you through it all.

I find scenario 4 the most likely as well. Although maybe not organized adn planned out in advance by the church, I think that is what would eventually evolve.

I believe it depends on where you live. I will give anyone food who comes to my house but you better grab a shovel or a rake and go help down in the garden when you're done or you won't recieve such a nice welcome when you come the next time in search of food.

I think there are some places where people will have to leave their homes and there will be some places that will become refuges. I believe my farm to be the latter and I am striving to prepare it as such. However, I do have my 72 hour kits and if I have to I'll load my dogs and my goats down with food and water and my family and I will head for the hills. I don't really think there will be a mass exodus all at one time but there will be gradual moves in and out of the mountain areas of the world.

Larry-

Just wanted to say that I have enjoyed your post's they are researched and well thought out.

They add quite a bit to the forum, thanks

Two thumbs up Larry. It took my wife and less then seven months to get a year's supply--not that hard. We now need to work on clothing, fuel, another year of food, some water storage, etc. Again, probably not as hard as the first year supply. People just need to follow the prophet. They don't need foam clothes and acres of coal in their backyard (like my mother in law has).

Come now Larry, how you think you're gonna go anywhere with the size and weight of a 1-year supply of food, water and all the other "life sustaining essentials", you been storing and with anarchy about .... not gonna happen Larry. The wise will stay within their wards/stakes where they'll be a chance of order and peace, safety in numbers. This talk of escaping to some refuge in the event of societal breakdown, is the makings of Hollywood movie cause Hollywood deals in fantasies. Think it through.

Another thought regarding society breakdown. How long before people get real sick drinking contaminated water? How many days before severe water-borne diseases spread like wild fire? Days? Weeks? Think of it, all this pure running water we now enjoy at "the tap", suddenly all gone! You can go without food for days but how long without water? No, people will be drinking out of rivers, springs, ponds, lakes, gutters, where ever they can get it and being so "civilized" for so long, our "internal workings" are unused to such "gray water". We'd get sicker much faster and much more severely. How long then, will an organized ward/stake need to "repell boarders"? 2 weeks? A month? Certainly after 3 months, only the very few who have not prepared, will survive. Disease and famine will take the vast majority. Exposure to the elements too. Best to just sit tight and let nature take it's course.

Good comments. I have always felt that "fuel" meant cooking and heating fuel - not automobile gas.
You instantly become a target when you are the only vehicle driving around...

Chip45 wrote:Come now Larry, how you think you're gonna go anywhere with the size and weight of a 1-year supply of food, water and all the other "life sustaining essentials", you been storing and with anarchy about .... not gonna happen Larry. The wise will stay within their wards/stakes where they'll be a chance of order and peace, safety in numbers. This talk of escaping to some refuge in the event of societal breakdown, is the makings of Hollywood movie cause Hollywood deals in fantasies. Think it through.

I agree. I have never heard a good reason as to why we will flee from our homes, wards, or stakes. They were designed (by the lord) to be the protection we seek.

I agree that we will be organized as wards and stakes. Part of the problem for me is that the scriptures say people will still be getting married, to me that says life will feel normal to many people. I do believe some people may be called to go back to Missouri. I do not believe we will be called out. we will be called to endure the these trials of the last days. It is the only way to make a people strong enough to be celestialized and worthy to have Christ walk with us daily. I think this doctrine of being called out and not having to endure the trials is very pleasing to man, but not to God.

I think this doctrine of being called out and not having to endure the trials is very pleasing to man, but not to God.

Nan, this is how I see it, also. I don't doubt that there will be areas where the Saints will have to flee, but I think many of us will be staying in our own homes. (I don't really see how I could possibly move all of my storage, anyway.) I believe it is highly more probable that we will be asked to share our homes and our resources with others less fortunate. Since I live in the Salt Lake area, I really believe that many people will flock to the Intermountain areas for safety. The most important thing for our safety is our personal righteousness. "If [we] are prepared, [we] shall not fear." And that means righteousness, as well as a 72-hour kit.

kathyn wrote:

I think this doctrine of being called out and not having to endure the trials is very pleasing to man, but not to God.

Nan, this is how I see it, also. I don't doubt that there will be areas where the Saints will have to flee, but I think many of us will be staying in our own homes. (I don't really see how I could possibly move all of my storage, anyway.) I believe it is highly more probable that we will be asked to share our homes and our resources with others less fortunate. Since I live in the Salt Lake area, I really believe that many people will flock to the Intermountain areas for safety. The most important thing for our safety is our personal righteousness. "If [we] are prepared, [we] shall not fear." And that means righteousness, as well as a 72-hour kit.

I'm agreeing here, too. Preparedness in as many areas that we can. Kathyn, when you run out from sharing...I will gladly share what we have with you and yours!

The scriptures say, repeatedly, that those that are left will be a "remnant". That tells me that very few are left after the trials and tribulations. I do not think that if there is a call out (I personally believe there will be one) that the vast majority of members will go. In my business I have a Jew as a partner. We talk occasionally about these things. My Jewish partner jokes (but half seriously) that when the Mormons in his neighborhood start to move out, he's going with them . We can't discount the fact the many non-members will also feel the call through the spirit, that they are already being prepared. Again, my Jewish partner is into food storage, emergency preparedness and is ready to join up and share what they have when the time comes.

Nan wrote:I agree that we will be organized as wards and stakes. Part of the problem for me is that the scriptures say people will still be getting married, to me that says life will feel normal to many people. I do believe some people may be called to go back to Missouri. I do not believe we will be called out. we will be called to endure the these trials of the last days. It is the only way to make a people strong enough to be celestialized and worthy to have Christ walk with us daily. I think this doctrine of being called out and not having to endure the trials is very pleasing to man, but not to God.

Nan,

I don't think the Saints will avoid all the destruction and calamities of the last days but they may avoid some...Look at LDS history and Hauns mill. We too will avoid much of the calamity if we are obedient. We will still have trials but we may avoid destruction if we follow the prophet. A little understanding of the gospel goes a long ways.

Look at church history. Look at them and all the places the left. Hauns mill was one place. New york, ohio, missouri, navoo were places all the saints had to endure much tribulations. Look at Utah, being obedient and leaving for utah left them in starving conditions both on the way there and once they arrived. They were obedient. Being obedient does not save us from trials. It does save us from the trials that come from sin and stupidity. But not the trials of faith or of the conditions of living in the human conditions. Yes a little gospel knowledge does go a long way. We will be called to endure trials, tribulations and plagues. Even the faithful will die.

I cant say either way. I just hope I am in tune when the time comes. At this point it doesn't matter if you are for or against the "call out"......no one can say for sure either way. Just follow the prep guidelines given %100

Come now Larry, how you think you're gonna go anywhere with the size and weight of a 1-year supply of food, water and all the other "life sustaining essentials", you been storing and with anarchy about .... not gonna happen Larry. The wise will stay within their wards/stakes where they'll be a chance of order and peace, safety in numbers. This talk of escaping to some refuge in the event of societal breakdown, is the makings of Hollywood movie cause Hollywood deals in fantasies. Think it through.

Lehi did it, and he only had camels. What percentage of the members are prepared? Less than 10% in my Ward, If asked to leave how many of them would? Less than half. we have about 80 active in our ward, so roughly 6-8 people maybe 10-20 ready in some other larger wards.

The above comment is ussually expressed by many unprepared. Where has a cleansing occured through out the scriptures where the rightous have stayed in there homes while the wicked were cleansed from around them? oh thats right it doesn't exsist.

The unprepared hate this senario Why is that? Because it takes away their back up plan, "That were all Gonna Share" If I am here in my home when the Cleansing begins I will gladly Share, However, I Don't believe that senario is going to exist. It doesn't exist in the Scriptures. Why would we be any different?

will wrote: Where has a cleansing occured through out the scriptures where the rightous have stayed in there homes while the wicked were cleansed from around them? oh thats right it doesn't exsist.

Read the Old Testament (Ex. 12:22-23)

I won't be going anywhere, my food storage is here and far to much to be moved. Besides that, my ward is really big into preparation. We're preparing for the people that arrive here on foot, looking to move on to housing with relatives. Ours will be a place of rest, refuge, shelter and food for them

I don't doubt that some members will be advised to move into different areas for better group protection, as in Captain Moroni moving everybody closer to Zarahemla, but we in this area won't be among them. Within 6 miles of my home are three large church farms, a cattle feed lot and and several very large grain silos. All that is a main reason why I chose to live here.

At first Jo wasn't keen on the idea, so I brought her out here, showed her all the church properties, how close stores and the hospital were. It took six months and she loved it, would not even consider moving, even though I had been offered very good paying jobs in Southern Cal, and another in Hawaii, a third in Alaska!

Pretty good for a city girl.

Secretly, I really didn't want to leave either.

Bob

Pretty good arguments can be made for both scenarios.....as they say in marketing...

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!!!

It's become easily apparent over the last couple months from reading topics and replies on this forum that we're dealing with quite an interesting cross-section of the population.

Some people who participate in this forum have it together and "get it." Others don't bother reading or trying to understand what was said in other posts or replies, but just want to spout off with emotional comebacks. Others have their head in the sand and refuse to pay attention to logically presented ideas.

At first, after reading a bunch of replies on this topic, I was determined that I would just not bother to post a reply of my own. I didn’t want to get into some debate that would go nowhere. But I guess I’m either a glutton for punishment, or I wanted to clear up some ideas presented. I know that this reply won't do much good and will still be lost on a bunch of people, and I’ll feel like I’m spitting in the wind. I’ll bet a whole bunch of you out there know exactly what I’m talking about.

Oh well… here goes.

Original_Intent wrote:I find scenario 4 the most likely as well. Although maybe not organized adn planned out in advance by the church, I think that is what would eventually evolve.

I don’t know how such a thing could possibly evolve on its own. Without leadership, people wouldn’t know where to gather or what to do. No one would be able to find anyone else.

I do NOT believe that we will only be given a few hours’ notice, and that semi-trucks will pull up to our houses at 2 a.m., and that we’ll be on a bus by 4 or 5 a.m. to who knows where. This situation does not allow for people away on vacations to participate. People would need to be given a heads up several days or weeks in advance.

SmallFarm wrote:I think there are some places where people will have to leave their homes and there will be some places that will become refuges. I believe my farm to be the latter and I am striving to prepare it as such.

A farm would be a wonderful place for a refuge. I hope you’ll get to use it. That would be awesome.

SmallFarm wrote:I don't really think there will be a mass exodus all at one time but there will be gradual moves in and out of the mountain areas of the world.

I can totally see localized relocations, depending on circumstances, until everyone has the chance to relocate.

Mosby wrote:Just wanted to say that I have enjoyed your post's they are researched and well thought out.

They add quite a bit to the forum, thanks

Thanks for the kind words! I really appreciate it.

pjbrownie wrote:Two thumbs up Larry. It took my wife and less then seven months to get a year's supply--not that hard. We now need to work on clothing, fuel, another year of food, some water storage, etc. Again, probably not as hard as the first year supply. People just need to follow the prophet. They don't need foam clothes and acres of coal in their backyard (like my mother in law has).

Amen to following the prophet. I think it’s very cool that you’ve got a year’s supply and that you’re continuing your preparations. Keep up the great work!

scottja wrote:Good comments. I have always felt that "fuel" meant cooking and heating fuel - not automobile gas.
You instantly become a target when you are the only vehicle driving around...

Exactly! I know that I don’t want to be a target!

Chip45 wrote:Come now Larry, how you think you're gonna go anywhere with the size and weight of a 1-year supply of food, water and all the other "life sustaining essentials", you been storing and with anarchy about .... not gonna happen Larry.

Come now Chip, didn’t you bother to read my post? I said that our food, clothing, and fuel would need to be transported by a very well organized process. And who said anything about transporting a year’s supply of water? Not I. We’ve been counseled to have 2 weeks’ worth of water on hand per person. And who said anything about transporting it with anarchy about? I said that it would need to be transported BEFORE anything bad hits the fan.

I welcome opposing points of view when they’re substantiated by supporting evidence. But it’s mind boggling when people just spout off their claims of what they think I said (even though I obviously didn’t say it), and then tell me that I’m wrong. Does anyone with logical sense take you seriously? Not gonna happen Chip.

Chip45 wrote:The wise will stay within their wards/stakes where they'll be a chance of order and peace, safety in numbers. This talk of escaping to some refuge in the event of societal breakdown, is the makings of Hollywood movie cause Hollywood deals in fantasies. Think it through.

Ah, yes. Safety in numbers in good ol’ Utah. I lived in Orem for 21 years, so I’m well aware of many who have that Utah mentality. “All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth.” You feel snug and safe and cozy in your supposedly Utopian society. There are so many nice members of the church all living so close to each other that you’ll just all share your food and be one big happy family. Except for the wicked people living here and there. Well, you’ll share with them, too, especially if they take all your food at gunpoint. “That’s okay! I’ve got lots of neighbors who have food… I’ll just go ask them for some! Oops, they were robbed by the wicked at gunpoint too? Oh my heck!”

You also ignored D&C 63:54 (which I already quoted):
There will be an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked. What word don’t you understand? “Entire”? Or “separation”? Or maybe neither one.

Will was spot on:

will wrote:Where has a cleansing occured through out the scriptures where the rightous have stayed in there homes while the wicked were cleansed from around them? oh thats right it doesn't exsist.

Well, some people in Utah feel that they’ll be the first people in the history of the world to stay in their homes through the cleansing. They’ll make copies of flyers and hand them out at houses where wicked people live, telling the wicked that they need to leave. Oh, okay, no problem.

This talk of staying put indefinitely in your house while calamities and destructions pummel everything around you, but nothing touches you, is the makings of a Hollywood movie. Think it through.

Chip45 wrote:Another thought regarding society breakdown. How long before people get real sick drinking contaminated water?

There would be fresh water available at each refuge. If not, it couldn’t be used as a refuge.

“I saw artesian wells and other wells dug all over that territory so that when the open waters were polluted and poisoned that the people of the church and their cattle should be provided for.”
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =1&t=11969

No matter if that Cardston Temple vision really happens or not, there will still be wells with fresh water for each place of refuge.

Henmasher wrote:I have never heard a good reason as to why we will flee from our homes, wards, or stakes.

Never heard a good reason? What was my entire post? Chopped liver?

Henmasher wrote:They were designed (by the lord) to be the protection we seek.

Spiritual protection, yes. But what about physical protection? Okay, I can see that a bunch of Saints that live really close to each other could help protect each other for a little while, until the mobs come through. But what about the people who live outside of Utah? I’m talking about people who live where they are the only Saints among hundreds of houses. How are they supposed to be protected?

shadow wrote:

will wrote: Where has a cleansing occured through out the scriptures where the rightous have stayed in there homes while the wicked were cleansed from around them? oh thats right it doesn't exsist.

Read the Old Testament (Ex. 12:22-23)

Nice try, but no dice. The destroying angel killed only the first born, not all the wicked. If there had been an entire cleansing in Egypt, then the children of Israel wouldn’t have been in bondage anymore and could’ve stayed in Egypt. Oops, I need to correct myself… If there had been an entire cleansing in Egypt, then no one there would’ve survived.

Nan wrote:Part of the problem for me is that the scriptures say people will still be getting married, to me that says life will feel normal to many people.

Why wouldn’t people get married at a place of refuge? Of course they will, even though life won’t be normal anywhere. Life doesn’t have to be normal in order to get married.

Nan wrote:I do not believe we will be called out. we will be called to endure the these trials of the last days. It is the only way to make a people strong enough to be celestialized and worthy to have Christ walk with us daily. I think this doctrine of being called out and not having to endure the trials is very pleasing to man, but not to God.

This doctrine of being called out and not having to endure trials? What are you talking about?

I’m not sure what your definition is for being called out. It sounds like you think the call-out will be when everyone is raptured and taken up into heaven, while everyone else who is left behind on earth must live through the tribulation.

Any place of refuge will be a HUGE trial for anyone living there. It will be such a pain that many will be tempted to leave and go back to society. But such a move would be catastrophic for them. The Lord wants us to become strong through adversity and obedience, but at least He will give us a chance to survive:

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

But the only chance we will have to survive will be entirely separated from the wicked.

Thank you, kfb, for your response to Nan:

kfb wrote:I don't think the Saints will avoid all the destruction and calamities of the last days but they may avoid some...Look at LDS history and Hauns mill. We too will avoid much of the calamity if we are obedient. We will still have trials but we may avoid destruction if we follow the prophet. A little understanding of the gospel goes a long ways.

It’s too bad she didn’t get what you were trying to say.

Zowieink wrote:The scriptures say, repeatedly, that those that are left will be a "remnant". That tells me that very few are left after the trials and tribulations. I do not think that if there is a call out (I personally believe there will be one) that the vast majority of members will go. In my business I have a Jew as a partner. We talk occasionally about these things. My Jewish partner jokes (but half seriously) that when the Mormons in his neighborhood start to move out, he's going with them . We can't discount the fact the many non-members will also feel the call through the spirit, that they are already being prepared. Again, my Jewish partner is into food storage, emergency preparedness and is ready to join up and share what they have when the time comes.

Excellent! Let’s encourage as many of our neighbors and friends as we can to be prepared, and let’s take them with us!

bobhenstra wrote:Within 6 miles of my home are three large church farms, a cattle feed lot and and several very large grain silos.

That sounds like a very nice place for a refuge. Maybe I’ll see you there!

Larry,
There's still a couple of houses for sale. Hurry. or live in a tent! I suspect I'll have kids and grandkid coming out my ears---- My five acres is darn good farm land, but I do have room for two or three motor homes or camping trailers in my drive way. "If" you can beat my kids here, and the local ordinance prohibiting such is lifted.

Bob

Larry, I find it interesting that you say some of us don't get it. What if you are the one that does not get it? All the people in my REAL life who are followers of this say the calling out is to avoid the tribulations and trials that are coming. I do not believe in a call out as set forth by followers of AVOW. I believe it is a pleasing doctrine of men to believe that you(in a general sense not you specific) are somehow so special you are not going to have to endure trials and tribulations and that God is going to call you out. But those who aren't called out are wicked and get what they deserve and are blind and fools. It is also pleasing to the natural man to not have to endure trials and tribulations. It is also quite distracting for any other thing that is good and praise worthy and would move the work forward. I have heard someone state that the apostle who spoke on missionary work at stake conference spoke on the wrong thing and should have spoken on preparedness.

If you desire to be exalted, you will have to endure more trials and tribulations than someone who is not.. Think of Job, Joseph Smith and the other prophets. God will try you, to prove you in all things.

You may think I am wrong or foolish, but know this I will follow the prophet always. I will not follow another man preaching doctrine that is not from the prophet. The prophet has not said to prepare for a call out. He has not said we will live in tent cities. It is a different man saying this. And for me, that is dangerous ground.

Although I don't seem to have much time to post on here these days, I do visit from time to time, and occasionally I think about posting. This is the sort of topic that has always been interesting to me. At times in the past, I have thought about posting my evolving theories about how things will shake out, but have ultimately always concluded "ah, what's the use." But I guess Larry's post, and the myriad of responses it has gotten are kind of drawing me out on the issue. I will start out by saying that in my opinion, Larry is coming much closer to hitting the nail on the head than many people seem to want to be willing to give him credit for.

My background and experience seem to be different than most. Like many, I am very concerned about what the future holds. It has been a serious concern of mine for years, to the point that over time I have situated myself and my family in such a way that in addition to having our food storage, and garden, etc., etc., we also own and operate a small productive ranch, in a very secluded, off-the-beaten path location, with a year-round stream, a private well, springs nearby, and plenty of firewood, etc. It is located near a small agricultural community that is 80+% LDS, where a number of people are very preparedness-oriented, and people are generally good neighbors and work together. In many ways it seems like the ideal setting and situation. And I have spent years looking for and setting it up this way. I am well-travelled and have looked at many, many locations in both the United States and Canada, and have evaluated them for such scenarios.

Where am I going with all this? Although I agree with Jason's observation of "location, location, location," in the end, I don't believe that even location will be some kind of permanent silver bullet. I don't believe there is any perfect location, and there are exceptions to every rule. And exceptions to the exceptions. Although some will survive, I don't believe anyone will be completely spared the trials and tribulations to come. I think I am fairly well-educated and informed in many respects; I have studied this extensively, and, based on my background and experience, have given it A LOT of thought. Although my family has worked hard to be well-prepared in many ways, I firmly believe that ultimately it is all just temporary. Life is a journey, not a destination. Eventually, we will reach the end of all our temporal preparations. I believe there is great danger is getting too attached to any particular location, property or paradigm. I think such sentiments (including setting our hearts on the vain things of the world, including our homes and property) could really cloud our judgment, and distract from what the Lord may try to tell us when the time comes. And for a variety of reasons, we may not be in a position to hear what the prophet has to say at that point in time, so it will be up to us to figure out the Lord's Will and what He would have us do under the circumstances. Obviously, we can look to all our church leaders, including local ward and stake leaders, but ultimately there will be no substitute for our ability to listen to and hear what the Lord is trying to tell us personally. I can fantasize about how well set-up we are, and that we can stay and survive on our ranch forever, etc., but what if the Lord has something else in mind? Maybe our ranch will be a place of refuge for others too -- for a time. But eventually, depending on how many come, our resources will be depleted. In this little community of less than 500, we talk about what will in all likelihood happen. We fully expect that because of how it is situated, people will come to this area seeking refuge. When just a few family and friends come, we think the population will grow to at least 1500. We call that a best case scenario. Some years on the 24th of July, we feed that many visitors. This is the first place that many of them will come when SHTF. But it could also easily be tens of thousands -- whether they are instructed, or just come on their own, looking for a place where they hope/think they can be safe, and hopefully survive. And even if we take them in and do our best to share and help provide and support them, the only way this area -- this desert -- will be able to support that kind of population on a sustainable, long-term basis, is with at least the kind of power, energy, equipment and technology that exists right now. Is it fair to assume that all those things will continue and last indefinitely? If not, what then? Will the Lord just snap his fingers? And if he does, will he just keep doing that forever?

I don't know what to say about all the saints who are scattered around the world and what will happen with them when the time comes, but my ultimate conclusion about the much-vaunted Intermountain West is that although it is now, and may end up becoming even more of, a temporary shelter and place of refuge for the saints and others, based on my background, etc., I also have a very clear image in my mind of what it will ultimately look like after a couple years trying to support a population of several million people with no power grid, and little or no outside fuel -- It ain't gonna last for very long! Let us not forget that it is a desert, and that the only reason it looks like it does now is because of a whole lot of technology, power, equipment and energy that probably will not be available forever. Consequently, at a certain point in time, it is probably not going to look like it does now. Eventually, we -- even the Church -- are going to run out of stored food, clothing and fuel. Even the Church, and its massive farms on the West side of Utah Lake, are not set up for sustainable, long-term production under such circumstances. While we may be able to produce a certain amount, without major intervention, without a power grid and a lot of outside fuel, this desert that we call home in the Intermountain West is simply not capable of sustainably supporting that kind of population long term. Obviously, the Lord can do anything. If He wants to turn this desert into a self-irrigating and self-harvesting Garden of Eden, he can. The question is, does He want to? Why would He? What will be the Lord's Will at that point in time? What would be the purpose? I'm not aware of many scriptures or prophecies that make it sound like that will be the case.

As I consider the prophecies about what kind of shape the Saints are going to be in when they return to Missouri -- it won't be pretty -- it all makes more sense to me. I don't think it requires rocket science to understand what will ultimately happen in the West, particularly after several million people have sought refuge here for several years, without outside resources and inputs. All existing resources will be exhausted. We will have consumed everything that this region is naturally capable of producing-- under the circumstances -- and it won't be enough. In my opinion, eventually, it will look like the wilderness that the Children of Israel passed through and wandered in for 40 years -- it will be grubbed clean. Again, recognizing that the Lord can do anything -- if He wants to -- my theory is that eventually we (even whatever remnant exists at that point) will have no choice but to move to a more productive area that the Lord has prepared, so that a balance of resources can be restored, and He will not be forced to intervene to feed his people manna forever.

So many people seem to think that it's going to just be a matter of weathering a little rough patch until "things get back to normal." Well, I hate to burst any bubbles, but I don't think any one is going to be completely spared the trials and tribulations, and I don't think there's going to be any "back to normal" as we know it. There will be a new normal, and it won't look anything like it does now. Moreover, I think the scriptures contain many, many more examples of the Lord relocating his people than having them stay put. If Joseph in Egypt is a type of what is to come, I'm not sure the Intermountain West will play the role of Egypt. I don't think it's naturally capable of it. And even the Lord operates in accorance with the Laws of Nature. Any major interventions are only temporary. The Intermountain West is much more like Caanan. While Caanan may have been the promised land, Jacob (a prophet), and his family -- the House of Israel had to leave it, based on drought and famine, in order to survive. I do believe that the Lord will prepare a place -- just like he always has. But eventually, the House of Israel also left Egypt, which had been prepared as a temporary place of refuge, to return to Caanan. So, obviously, possibly for other reasons and/or under other circumstances, etc., I completely agree with Larry's conclusion that as a general rule, for a variety of reasons, eventually most of us will be leaving our houses. It is a definite pattern in the scriptures. Life is a journey, not a destination, and I think we are quickly reaching a point in time when many of us will get a chance to learn that first hand.

So many people seem to think that it's going to just be matter of weathering a little rough patch until "things get back to normal." Well, I hate to burst any bubbles, but I don't think any one is going to be completely spared the trials and tribulations, and I don't think there's going to be any "back to normal." There will be a new normal, and it won't look like it does now. Moreover, I think the scriptures contain many, many more examples of the Lord relocating his people than having them stay put. So, obviously, possibly for other reasons and/or under other circumstances, etc., I completely agree with Larry's conclusion that eventually we will be leaving our houses. Life is a journey, not a destination, and I think many of us will get a chance to learn that first hand.

I've always known that things won't go back to "normal", yet we've been told that not all of the Saints will go to Independence, Missouri, that many of the Saints will stay in Salt Lake. Because of my husband's health issues and our ages, I know I won't be privileged to go back to Missouri to build it up. It very well may be that our journey will end here during the harvest and tribulations to come. And that's okay, too. But I don't expect to get called out to a tent city anytime soon. If and when we need to leave our home, we'll do it. I'll take my cue from the prophet.