LDS Freedom Forum

Larry wrote:

shadow wrote:

will wrote: Where has a cleansing occured through out the scriptures where the rightous have stayed in there homes while the wicked were cleansed from around them? oh thats right it doesn't exsist.

Read the Old Testament (Ex. 12:22-23)

Nice try, but no dice. The destroying angel killed only the first born, not all the wicked. If there had been an entire cleansing in Egypt, then the children of Israel wouldn’t have been in bondage anymore and could’ve stayed in Egypt. Oops, I need to correct myself… If there had been an entire cleansing in Egypt, then no one there would’ve survived.

chiloe wrote:Watch the movie 'The Road' with Viggo Mortensen if you haven't already - there was some disturbing things in there that I could certainly see humans doing when desperate.
I would not feel safe in my home under apocalyptic circumstances - we don't have a large LDS community, not that that would guarantee anyting - desperate people resort to desperate measures no matter who
A girl's camp is being built a couple of hours away from us in the Toronto area - are these camps going to be used as gathering places?

Just last week several LDS co-workers (all active) were talking about downsizing thier homes now that their kids are gone. In joking I remarked, " keep the big house, that way you will have extra room for members of your ward when the bishop calls to ask you to let them move in.

One person laughed out loud, "NO WAY!!!, not unless it was the second coming and not even then if the people could go somewhere else."

Another said, " that would be when I told the bishop NO, not only no but Hell NO!

I'm a happy & joking guy, and usually can quip right back. This exchange left me speechless and frowning. What will become of us?

buffy snell wrote:Thanks for the article. I thought it was interesting and well thought out. Although I don't know if I agree that people in the church who haven't heeded the prophet's warning to obtain a year's supply of food would enjoy the same temporal welfare as those who have.


Ezra Taft Benson said, "I ask you earnestly, have you provided for your family a year's supply of food, clothing, and, where possible, fuel? The revelation to produce and store food may be as essential to our temporal welfare today as boarding the ark was to the people in the days of Noah."

It wasn't Noah that closed the Ark. According to Genesis 8:38, the Lord "shut him in." And I bet it was heart wrenching for him to not be able to offer assistance to those outside of the ark when the rain became a problem. I believe there will be a separation between those who are prepared temporally and those who are not because God is just. He keeps his word. And mercy is available only to those who have "observed the commandment." (D&C 54:6)

While it might seem disturbing that God would allow allow people to suffer the unthinkable consequences of disobedience, I am reminded of Alma's conversation with his son in Alma 42:1 and 25. He said,

"And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery...do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."

I also think it is illogical to promote preparation for a "call out," but peg people who are fully prepared for such things to be "extreme". Either there is going to be a call out or there is not. We can choose

1. To not believe it and not prepare for such a possibility
2. Believe it enough to prepare moderately for such a possibility or
3. Know what is coming and prepare for it like your life (and comfort) depended upon it.

Which one do you think Noah did?

tmac wrote:Although I don't seem to have much time to post on here these days, I do visit from time to time, and occasionally I think about posting. This is the sort of topic that has always been interesting to me. At times in the past, I have thought about posting my evolving theories about how things will shake out, but have ultimately always concluded "ah, what's the use." But I guess Larry's post, and the myriad of responses it has gotten are kind of drawing me out on the issue. I will start out by saying that in my opinion, Larry is coming much closer to hitting the nail on the head than many people seem to want to be willing to give him credit for.

My background and experience seem to be different than most. Like many, I am very concerned about what the future holds. It has been a serious concern of mine for years, to the point that over time I have situated myself and my family in such a way that in addition to having our food storage, and garden, etc., etc., we also own and operate a small productive ranch, in a very secluded, off-the-beaten path location, with a year-round stream, a private well, springs nearby, and plenty of firewood, etc. It is located near a small agricultural community that is 80+% LDS, where a number of people are very preparedness-oriented, and people are generally good neighbors and work together. In many ways it seems like the ideal setting and situation. And I have spent years looking for and setting it up this way. I am well-travelled and have looked at many, many locations in both the United States and Canada, and have evaluated them for such scenarios.

Where am I going with all this? Although I agree with Jason's observation of "location, location, location," in the end, I don't believe that even location will be some kind of permanent silver bullet. I don't believe there is any perfect location, and there are exceptions to every rule. And exceptions to the exceptions. Although some will survive, I don't believe anyone will be completely spared the trials and tribulations to come. I think I am fairly well-educated and informed in many respects; I have studied this extensively, and, based on my background and experience, have given it A LOT of thought. Although my family has worked hard to be well-prepared in many ways, I firmly believe that ultimately it is all just temporary. Life is a journey, not a destination. Eventually, we will reach the end of all our temporal preparations. I believe there is great danger is getting too attached to any particular location, property or paradigm. I think such sentiments (including setting our hearts on the vain things of the world, including our homes and property) could really cloud our judgment, and distract from what the Lord may try to tell us when the time comes. And for a variety of reasons, we may not be in a position to hear what the prophet has to say at that point in time, so it will be up to us to figure out the Lord's Will and what He would have us do under the circumstances. Obviously, we can look to all our church leaders, including local ward and stake leaders, but ultimately there will be no substitute for our ability to listen to and hear what the Lord is trying to tell us personally. I can fantasize about how well set-up we are, and that we can stay and survive on our ranch forever, etc., but what if the Lord has something else in mind? Maybe our ranch will be a place of refuge for others too -- for a time. But eventually, depending on how many come, our resources will be depleted. In this little community of less than 500, we talk about what will in all likelihood happen. We fully expect that because of how it is situated, people will come to this area seeking refuge. When just a few family and friends come, we think the population will grow to at least 1500. We call that a best case scenario. Some years on the 24th of July, we feed that many visitors. This is the first place that many of them will come when SHTF. But it could also easily be tens of thousands -- whether they are instructed, or just come on their own, looking for a place where they hope/think they can be safe, and hopefully survive. And even if we take them in and do our best to share and help provide and support them, the only way this area -- this desert -- will be able to support that kind of population on a sustainable, long-term basis, is with at least the kind of power, energy, equipment and technology that exists right now. Is it fair to assume that all those things will continue and last indefinitely? If not, what then? Will the Lord just snap his fingers? And if he does, will he just keep doing that forever?

I don't know what to say about all the saints who are scattered around the world and what will happen with them when the time comes, but my ultimate conclusion about the much-vaunted Intermountain West is that although it is now, and may end up becoming even more of, a temporary shelter and place of refuge for the saints and others, based on my background, etc., I also have a very clear image in my mind of what it will ultimately look like after a couple years trying to support a population of several million people with no power grid, and little or no outside fuel -- It ain't gonna last for very long! Let us not forget that it is a desert, and that the only reason it looks like it does now is because of a whole lot of technology, power, equipment and energy that probably will not be available forever. Consequently, at a certain point in time, it is probably not going to look like it does now. Eventually, we -- even the Church -- are going to run out of stored food, clothing and fuel. Even the Church, and its massive farms on the West side of Utah Lake, are not set up for sustainable, long-term production under such circumstances. While we may be able to produce a certain amount, without major intervention, without a power grid and a lot of outside fuel, this desert that we call home in the Intermountain West is simply not capable of sustainably supporting that kind of population long term. Obviously, the Lord can do anything. If He wants to turn this desert into a self-irrigating and self-harvesting Garden of Eden, he can. The question is, does He want to? Why would He? What will be the Lord's Will at that point in time? What would be the purpose? I'm not aware of many scriptures or prophecies that make it sound like that will be the case.

As I consider the prophecies about what kind of shape the Saints are going to be in when they return to Missouri -- it won't be pretty -- it all makes more sense to me. I don't think it requires rocket science to understand what will ultimately happen in the West, particularly after several million people have sought refuge here for several years, without outside resources and inputs. All existing resources will be exhausted. We will have consumed everything that this region is naturally capable of producing-- under the circumstances -- and it won't be enough. In my opinion, eventually, it will look like the wilderness that the Children of Israel passed through and wandered in for 40 years -- it will be grubbed clean. Again, recognizing that the Lord can do anything -- if He wants to -- my theory is that eventually we (even whatever remnant exists at that point) will have no choice but to move to a more productive area that the Lord has prepared, so that a balance of resources can be restored, and He will not be forced to intervene to feed his people manna forever.

So many people seem to think that it's going to just be a matter of weathering a little rough patch until "things get back to normal." Well, I hate to burst any bubbles, but I don't think any one is going to be completely spared the trials and tribulations, and I don't think there's going to be any "back to normal" as we know it. There will be a new normal, and it won't look anything like it does now. Moreover, I think the scriptures contain many, many more examples of the Lord relocating his people than having them stay put. If Joseph in Egypt is a type of what is to come, I'm not sure the Intermountain West will play the role of Egypt. I don't think it's naturally capable of it. And even the Lord operates in accorance with the Laws of Nature. Any major interventions are only temporary. The Intermountain West is much more like Caanan. While Caanan may have been the promised land, Jacob (a prophet), and his family -- the House of Israel had to leave it, based on drought and famine, in order to survive. I do believe that the Lord will prepare a place -- just like he always has. But eventually, the House of Israel also left Egypt, which had been prepared as a temporary place of refuge, to return to Caanan. So, obviously, possibly for other reasons and/or under other circumstances, etc., I completely agree with Larry's conclusion that as a general rule, for a variety of reasons, eventually most of us will be leaving our houses. It is a definite pattern in the scriptures. Life is a journey, not a destination, and I think we are quickly reaching a point in time when many of us will get a chance to learn that first hand.

The excuse for the Saints’ reluctance was clearly their total preoccupation with their own separation from the world, which was violent and forcible but a necessary prelude to Zion—“Gather ye together, O ye people of my church, … upon the land of Zion. … Let them … who are among the Gentiles flee unto Zion. And let them who be of Judah flee unto Jerusalem.” (D&C 133:4, 12–13.) They were looking for a place of safety, “the land of Zion … for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from the wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.” (D&C 115:6.) Building the city had to come later.