LDS Freedom Forum

Benjamin_LK wrote:
The important thing to remember though is that regardless of how the situation turns out, I am pretty sure that only with Extra Strength provided by God can the church prevail, much less still exist right now.

...What does the LDS church have to do with guns?

I suppose it is one thing to make a law, another to enforce it. I truly believe that any attempt to confiscate guns from Americans could see all sorts of diverse groups come together and resist.

tnerb wrote:I hate being the opposition, but hey its needs be in all things. Here we have gun laws, they are very very strict. Almost impossible to buy a gun. It works well. I dont see the big issue with why everyone must have a gun. Im pro-gun myself, i think shooting is a fun sport. Here is i register with a gun club, take an extensive training and safety course and then attend my shooting club regularly, I may then own a gun that is compatible with my sport. What would be wrong with having laws like that. Its not as you need a gun other to harm someone or something. So big deal if guns get banned? Im not realy pro UN either, but big deal if they pass a non binding motion to ban the sale of arms. The condem israel on an almost daily basis, they do lots of things, non of which are legaly binding. ANyway, someone explain to me why (other than its in the constitution) why you need a gun?

For the same reason Nephi crafted swords and armed his people/family in protection against the other half of the family.

Just my opinion, but Americans as of late have not been good about upholding their freedoms supposedly guaranteed them by the their Constitution, and I think that if our FedGov got serious about gun confiscation most Americans would turn them in, especially if UN forces got involved. And I'd bet that if told to do so by the FedGov, the First Presidency would advise members to comply with a confiscation.

Lundbaek, you are quite right, if our governments required us to hand in our guns the First Presidency would instruct the members to obey. But I don't have a problem with that. I like my guns and they are important family heirlooms at the same time. But, having read the Old Testament (of which the Book of Mormon is an integral part) I understand that Jesus wants to be our God and for us to be His people and He wants to fight our battles for us. Maybe we will never have our guns taken from us but I predict that these days will become so bad before the end that deliverance will not be by the sword but by the staff of the Shepherd.

We should not trust in the arm of the flesh but in the arm of God. I still like my guns and will fight tooth and nail to keep them, but I don't believe they will have a whole lot to do with our salvation, either physical or spiritual.

I am so tired of people who are not citizens of the Unites States lecturing us on this and other forums about our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms (yes, I mean "Robin Hood" and now "tnerb"). Look guys, I don't stand on my soap box and lecture you about the laws of your country, your culture, or the history behind your way of life (except maybe "Robin Hood", I'm enjoying the tit-for-tat with him! ). But let's just put this our there; you are not a citizen of the United States so really don't have a say in the way we conduct our business. Simple and straight forward.

Also I'm a little tired of so-called members of the Church who are ignoring the Lord's instructions given plainly in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and other scripture that we have a moral obligation to defend our lives, the lives of our families, and our liberty. Look it up guys, its there in spades.

Aside from the "sporting" purposes of firearms, I have and carry weapons for a very simple reason: to protect my life and the lives of my loved ones. An editorial on Fox News just today by Andrew P. Napolitano, a former judge of the Superior Court of New Jersey, captures this very well. he says, in part:

The right to keep and bear arms has more than just the Second Amendment to protect it. By characterizing the right as fundamental and pre-political, the high court accepted the truism that this right is merely a modern extension of the ancient right to self-defense. And the right to defend oneself does not come from the government; it comes from our humanity. It is a natural right.
Who among us, when confronted with the terror of nearly certain annihilation, would concern himself with the niceties of the law? Life itself is at stake. The right to self-defense is a manifestation of the natural instinct for survival, borne in the hearts of all rational people.

Let me add that unlike Australia, Britain, Canada, Japan, or many other so-called free nations it was necessary for our nation, founded by choice spirits called by God so that the Gospel in its fullness could be restored in the latter days, to be birthed in revolution and by the shedding of blood so that "liberty" or free agency, a notion long forgotten in the rest of the world, could be restored to the human family. We in this country know what it takes to throw off tyranny, for unlike you our ancestors lived it. And from that experience came the sure knowledge, also learned by numerous peoples in the Book of Mormon, that sometimes "liberty" requires sacrifice, even up to the sacrifice on one's life.
Here are just a few quotes that may help to explain the deep seated and almost religious fervor with which American Patriots view their right to "keep and bear arms" from some of the great men who God raised up to found this nation that the rest of the world likes to so readily critic:

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive. Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, (1787)

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 53 (1788

And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;... Samuel Adams, Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788

A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..." George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

I could go on but I think you get my drift. I am a citizen of the United States; I believe, as it says in Scripture and in revelation from modern day Prophets, that God raised up choice, courageous men and women to found this nation on God given principals of liberty and agency; and that this nation has been a beacon to the world in dark times (also as testified by Scripture and modern day Prophets) since then for all freedom loving people to emulate and aspire to. For those of you who are not citizens of the United States, you do not have a "dog in the fight". You are perfectly welcome to enjoy the freedoms and privileges the United States has promoted throughout the world from its founding until this day, but you need to slack off on the criticism a little. Because of our "guns" the world is a better place.

Dave, you live in Australia and still have guns ? Are they reasonable modern or are they antiques ? We in America have been reading about how guns were confiscated in Australia. So what gives ?

lundbaek wrote:Just my opinion, but Americans as of late have not been good about upholding their freedoms supposedly guaranteed them by the their Constitution, and I think that if our FedGov got serious about gun confiscation most Americans would turn them in, especially if UN forces got involved. And I'd bet that if told to do so by the FedGov, the First Presidency would advise members to comply with a confiscation.

That is a very real posibility, and we should comply if they do. Put your faith in god, not in the strength of your own arm.

No, that doesn't mean that I believe in gun control. I think I established that in the other thread. It means that I believe that in the end the UN won't exist, and christ will reign over this earth. When Christ reigns over the earth, There will no longer be a need for guns. If the church tells me to comply with a law requiring that I surrender my guns, to me it means that they have recieved revelation that we shouldn't risk our lives over something that the lord has other plans for. We should have faith that he will take care of it. God didn't tell the israeli's to fight back against their egyptian captures who where pursuing them into the desert, he took care of the problem for them.

Now on the other hand, If my prophet tells me that we should gather our arms and fight back, I plan on obeying that command as well.

Either I believe that this is the true church, or I don't. I will do what my prophet tells me to do.

markharr wrote:

lundbaek wrote:Just my opinion, but Americans as of late have not been good about upholding their freedoms supposedly guaranteed them by the their Constitution, and I think that if our FedGov got serious about gun confiscation most Americans would turn them in, especially if UN forces got involved. And I'd bet that if told to do so by the FedGov, the First Presidency would advise members to comply with a confiscation.

That is a very real posibility, and we should comply if they do. Put your faith in god, not in the strength of your own arm.

No, that doesn't mean that I believe in gun control. I think I established that in the other thread. It means that I believe that in the end the UN won't exist, and christ will reign over this earth. When Christ reigns over the earth, There will no longer be a need for guns. If the church tells me to comply with a law requiring that I surrender my guns, to me it means that they have recieved revelation that we shouldn't risk our lives over something that the lord has other plans for. We should have faith that he will take care of it. God didn't tell the israeli's to fight back against their egyptian captures who where pursuing them into the desert, he took care of the problem for them.

Now on the other hand, If my prophet tells me that we should gather our arms and fight back, I plan on obeying that command as well.

Either I believe that this is the true church, or I don't. I will do what my prophet tells me to do.

Read the GAS prophecy. Even if you take the part at face value for gun owners, it's valuable. I take it as prophetic instruction.

The mention in the GAS prophecy to family members that "the government will take away guns from the people" (quoting from a failing memory) was on my mind as I wrote what I did about Americans caving in to gun confiscation. Anyway, you might find this to be of interest.

In History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Volume 3, pages 190-192, there is the following account about the Missouri mobbings that took place. Under the date November 1, here is what Joseph Smith had recorded by his scribes (I have underlined and bolded parts I wanted to emphasize):
Thursday, November 1.--Brothers Hyrum Smith and Amasa Lyman were
brought prisoners into camp. The officers of the militia held a court
martial, and sentenced us to be shot, on Friday morning, on the public
square of Far West as a warning to the "Mormons." However,
notwithstanding their sentence and determination, they were not permitted
to carry their murderous sentence into execution. Having an opportunity of
speaking to General Wilson, I inquired of him why I was thus treated. I
told him I was not aware of having done anything worthy of such treatment;
that I had always been a supporter of the Constitution and of democracy.
His answer was, "I know it, and that is the reason why I want to kill you,
or have you killed."

The militia went into the town, and without any restraint whatever,
plundered the houses, and a use the innocent and unoffending inhabitants
and left many destitute. They went to my house, drove my family out of
doors, carried away most of my property. General Doniphan declared he
would have nothing to do with such cold-blooded murder, and that he would
withdraw his brigade in the morning.

Governor Boggs wrote General Clark from Jefferson City, that he
considered full and ample powers were vested in him [Clark] to carry into
effect the former orders; says Boggs:

Excerpt from Governor Boggs' Communication to General Lucas.

The case is now a very plain one--the "Mormons" must be subdued;
and peace restored to the community; you will therefore proceed
without delay to execute the former orders. Full confidence is
reposed in your ability to do so; your force will be amply sufficient
to accomplish the object. Should you need the aid of artillery, I
would suggest that an application be made to the commanding officer
of Fort Leavenworth, for such as you may need. You are authorized to
request the loan of it in the name of the state of Missouri. The
ringleaders of this rebellion should be made an example of; and if it
should become necessary for the public peace, the "Mormons" should be
exterminated, or expelled from the state.

This morning General Lucas ordered the Caldwell militia to give up
their arms. Hinkle, having made a treaty with the mob on his own
responsibility, to carry out his treachery, marched the troops out of the
city, and the brethren gave up their arms, their own property, which no
government on earth had a right to require.

The mob (called Governor's troops) then marched into town, and under
pretense of searching for arms tore up floors, upset haystacks, plundered
the most valuable effects they could lay their hands on, wantonly wasted
and destroyed a great amount of property, compelled the brethren at the
point of the bayonet to sign deeds of trust to pay the expenses of the
mob, even while the place was desecrated by the chastity of women being
violated. About eighty men were taken prisoners, the remainder were
ordered to leave the state, and were forbidden, under threat of being shot
by the mob to assemble more than three in a place.

Clearly, based on a casual reading of Church history, the right to keep and bear arms is essential to protect freedom.