question about BOM peoples

[Geeswell]

Hey all!

I recently read something that sort of disturbed me. Didn't really shake me, but left me wondering.

Archeologists have challenged the BOM because they say that DNA samples don't link the North American natives OR the central/ south American indigenous peoples to the Jews.

Then the Church's "FAIR" or whoever verifies this and the beginning of the BOM is rewritten to state that "some" of them were decedents?

So what now? haha it just seems crazy to me that they cannot be linked. Also that the Church couldn't back it up. I guess that would be too easy tho, wouldn't it? if all of the sudden they said, "yep, they are descendants per the DNA..." Too many would just accept the gospel as proven fact?

Or am I completely misread and misunderstanding something?

Thanks in advance for your input!

ps i don't place such value on facts as to be my foundation and working force for my testimony. I'm simply intrigued!

[believer]

In some circles in the church, there is a train of thought, that there were other groups of people that arrived in the Americas besides the group with Lehi.

We know of the Mulekites. Mulek was of Judah, but we have no idea how many were in his party, or what their nationality was.

To me, it just stands to reason that some of the Jaredites survived. Probably some went into hiding, and escaped the total annihilation.

We know that the Vikings landed in North America. Some married native women and had children by them, and then left them when they left America and went home.

In ancient Chinese history, there is a record of Chinese explorers that discovered a land far away. They stayed for awhile, then left because the dark skinned people were just about to annihilate the light skinned people.

There may have been other groups that got to the Americas as well.

Maybe this helps. I base my testimony on the truth of the Book of Mormon because the Spirit has born witness to me. It doesn't matter what people in the world say. All these things are very interesting. At some point in the future, we will know the answers. Until such time, I just keep on trying to live the gospel the best I can.


Believer

[Geeswell]

In some circles in the church, there is a train of thought, that there were other groups of people that arrived in the Americas besides the group with Lehi.

We know of the Mulekites. Mulek was of Judah, but we have no idea how many were in his party, or what their nationality was.

To me, it just stands to reason that some of the Jaredites survived. Probably some went into hiding, and escaped the total annihilation.

We know that the Vikings landed in North America. Some married native women and had children by them, and then left them when they left America and went home.

In ancient Chinese history, there is a record of Chinese explorers that discovered a land far away. They stayed for awhile, then left because the dark skinned people were just about to annihilate the light skinned people.

There may have been other groups that got to the Americas as well.

Maybe this helps. I base my testimony on the truth of the Book of Mormon because the Spirit has born witness to me. It doesn't matter what people in the world say. All these things are very interesting. At some point in the future, we will know the answers. Until such time, I just keep on trying to live the gospel the best I can.


Believer

those are very interesting ideas! are there books about evidence of such things? or are they legend? either way, sounds pretty cool!

thanks for your thoughts!

[believer]

The ideas about the Mulekites and the Jaredites are my own thoughts and reasoning. I saw the info about the Vikings in a documentary on the History Channel. Also on the History Channel, I saw a documentary about some of the Knights Templar possibly arriving in North America.

I read about the Chinese in a book, but I can't remember which one, nor do I know where to look for it. Possibly it was one of Cleon Skousen's books, but I could be wrong.

It will be interesting when we can know the truth about all of these things.


Believer

[BroJones]

We have discussed the recent DNA evidence at some length on earlier threads. Lacking time to repeat the new evidence here in detail, let me point you to relevant links you can study for yourself.

Recently, some dear friends of ours, Blaine and Carolyn Wood, shared with us a talk by an LDS, DNA expert, Rodney Meldrum, <rodneymeldrum {at} hotmail.com>. He spent 2 ½ years researching DNA types in North America. He found in the literature a haplogroup – denoted X2 – that ties directly to Israel, Italy, and Finland, and which came here pre Columbus. The Algonquin tribes are among this haplogroup. Most interestingly, the X2 haplogroup correlates directly with those that the Prophet Joseph said were the descendants of Joseph in Egypt, as Joseph Smith wrote in the Wentworth letter from which we get the Articles of Faith. Hence, this would be consistent with the Book of Mormon. There are several other statements from the Prophet Joseph, that Rodney has found, that tie the Book of Mormon peoples to this X2 haplogroup.

http://www.allanstime.com/Spiritual/DNA ... Mormon.htm

And: http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/

Personally, I have an open mind regarding the location of the city of Zarahemla in the Book of Mormon. It cannot be in both the American heartland (as Meldrum suggests based on DNA evidence and statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith) and in Mesoamerica (as suggested by certain BYU scholars).

[Wiikwajio]

The largest problem with DNA is that we do not know what Lehi/Ishmael's family's DNA was.

The Cherokee believe they are decedents of Israel. The have found Hebrew writings in at least one grave dated around 800 AD. But most of the DNA ties to Europe from one of the very white tribes. I laughed when I heard that since the Israelites (Lost Ten Tribes) went Europe.

They know the Polynesians made it to South America. We know that Alma's son went north with a large group of people. If Zarahemla is in Guatemala, And I know it is, then north by the sea west from the Yucatan peninsula in the Mississippi valley.


When Alma found Amulek Amulek said: Alma 8: 20 And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house.

Why would he identify himself as a Nephite in a Nephite city? Easy. Most of the people were not Nephites.

Many of the Jaredites survived. Large Groups of them. The Nephite Culture was directly affected by them but the Book of Mormon is about the history of the Nephites, not the Olmec or the Mulekites or the Maya that were here before them. We do not know the DNA of the Mulekites and there were more of them by double than the Nephites, and we don't know the DNA of the Nephites. We know the Mulek was Jewish but that is all. They could have picked up all kinds of people before and after they came to the Americas.

There are two written languages that I know of that used Glyphs and Phonetics: Mayan and Egyptian. Both built Pyramids. Nephi and Sam are Egyptian names. So is Lehi. So what is their DNA? What was the genetics of their mothers? How many mothers did the Sons and Daughters of Ishmael have? Lehi did not know he was of Joseph until AFTER he got the Brass plates. So where were these people from? Who had the had children with. Was the Joseph line through the mothers or fathers of Lehi?

You see we don't have much more than a clue to who they were let alone their DNA markers.

The Olmec are the Jeradites. Were their people in the Americans before the Jeradites or were they wiped out by the Flood if the flood happened to the whole world and not in parts or one section? What is Olmec DNA?

We know from science that the Maya were already in Central America before they Lehi came here. We know that around 600 BC that the Maya got a written language. I believe the Nephites were probably the Izapa Culture but that is a guess. But that is, as I recall, where the tree of life stone comes from.

We know that the Lamanite DNA may have been slightly altered by God. After all they were cursed, were they not, with a dark skin. What effect does that have on the DNA? And we know that the Nephites were nearly wides out in their home land.

There are legends that a Prince of Troy escaped with some people went to the Americas. I think Troy was an Israelite City. The Vikings were all over the place. The Chinese were all over the place. The Irish were here. The Minoans were here. The Romans were here. Solomon's mines may have been in the Americas. Why was Christopher Columbus looking the Land of Promise and said so before he headed off to the Americas? How was the Irish Prophet that came to the AMericas looking for the God given land of Promise and why was Columbus looking for where he had gone? Why do scientists hang on to the RIDICULOUS land bridge theory when they know that many peoples came here by boat?

These problems with the Book of Mormon are nothing compared to the problems in the Bible. Where was the Garden of Eden? Why is the little to no evidence of a world wide flood. Why are there people LONG before Adam should have been mortal? How many daughters did Eve have? Did Adam's children mate with the other people's. Who are the Son's of God and the Daughters of men? Who are the Clovis people and were they wiped out?

How many arks were there? Were there more than one? Why? Why not? Was it local as most scientists believe. If so then why does every culture have a flood story?

Who are the Giants that made the Israelites like insects? What is their DNA and where did they come from? Where is there evidence of Moses? What was Joshua's (an Ephraimite) DNA? Where is the evidence of King David in Israel? Did Christ have Children? What is their DNA? Were they 1/4 God since Christ was 1/2 God?

There is a good start on a few of the questions I have.

[kathyn]

Too many think of the Nephites as being Jewish, when in fact many were of the tribe of Joseph. (In fact, my son is of the lineage of Manasseh.) Trying to prove anything about the BOM peoples by DNA or any other science tool is probably a futile attempt, at best.

There are good arguments to be made for the BOM lands being in Central America, as well as being in eastern North America. These are all very interesting, yet the real "proof" of the book is just as Moroni promised. Its truth will be testified to us by the Holy Ghost and that is the surest witness of all.

[clarkkent14]

Too many think of the Nephites as being Jewish, when in fact many were of the tribe of Joseph. (In fact, my son is of the lineage of Manasseh.) Trying to prove anything about the BOM peoples by DNA or any other science tool is probably a futile attempt, at best.

Finally someone that pays attention!!! I hate it when people miss this point... it's huge!

[Geeswell]

thanks for the link, Dr Jones,

Too many think of the Nephites as being Jewish, when in fact many were of the tribe of Joseph. (In fact, my son is of the lineage of Manasseh.) Trying to prove anything about the BOM peoples by DNA or any other science tool is probably a futile attempt, at best.

good point! that makes sense...

and Wiik, you just made my head explode with sheer wonder. those are fascinating "mysteries"

also

I've still some reading to do on this, but i tripped over this one day while reading a map. Thought it was really interesting. Am I mistaken that 10th century CE is 900 ad? or am I reading that wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni,_Comoros (yar...its wikipedia... i know...) Doesn't sound like Nephite ancestry, but still interesting that it is named "Moroni"

[MercynGrace]

Too many think of the Nephites as being Jewish, when in fact many were of the tribe of Joseph. (In fact, my son is of the lineage of Manasseh.) Trying to prove anything about the BOM peoples by DNA or any other science tool is probably a futile attempt, at best.

Finally someone that pays attention!!! I hate it when people miss this point... it's huge!

Lehi's family was of Manasseh (Alma 10:3) Joseph Smith said that the lost manuscript declared Ishmael's family was from Ephraim. I always thought that was pretty awesome how Ephraim and Manasseh came together to write the stick of Joseph.

Here's a great quote on the problem with typing the DNA of "Native" Americans:

With regards to measuring the genetic variation observed among the indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere, molecular anthropologist Michael H. Crawford has stated this problem succinctly and repeatedly in his volume The Origins of Native Americans:

"The Conquest and its sequelae squeezed the entire Amerindian population through a genetic bottleneck. The reduction of Amerindian gene pools from 1/3 to 1/25 of their previous size implies a considerable loss of genetic variability. [...] It is highly unlikely that survivorship was genetically random. [...] Thus, the present gene-frequency distributions of Amerindian populations may be distorted by a combination of effects stemming from genetic bottlenecks and natural selection. [...] This population reduction has forever altered the genetics of the surviving groups, thus complicating any attempts at reconstructing the pre-Columbian genetic structure of most New World groups."26

Subsequent research has supported this notion. In an article dealing with ancient DNA from Native American populations that was published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, the authors made the following statement: "Genetic drift has been a significant force [on Native American genetics] and, together with a major population crash after the European contact, has altered haplogroup frequencies and caused the loss of many haplotypes."27

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/B ... d_DNA.html

[britjas]

Not only were the Cherokee israelites, in their burial mounds they have found the 10 commandments on slabs of rock with a picture below of a cross with Jesus being crucified. Some of the Cherokee believe that the Godhead is three seperate personages. They say they left from a land across the sea when a tower was thrown down and the languages were confounded. They even claim to have a similar object to the Ark of the covenant which was taken away from them from another tribe when the other tribe thought the Cherokee weren't keeping the Original Teachings.

I also know much of the Hopi and somewhat of other tribes, If anyone is interested.

[britjas]

much of the cherokee information comes from this website:

http://ldscherokeefamily.homestead.com/

[believer]

I am very interested in information about the Hopi and Cherokee. I would love to know what you have to say.

Thank you.


Believer

[britjas]

from rexresearch
6. Hopi Prophecy ~

In the course of their communion with the Great Spirit, native Americans have received many visions of the destiny of North American civilization. The largest number of such prophesies have been preserved by the Hopi in Arizona. Their community of Oraibi is the oldest continually inhabited settlement (about 1,000 years) in North America. The name Hopi is derived from Hopitu Shinumu ("Peaceful [or: Righteous] People").

The Hopi believe that the human race has evolved through three world stages of life since its origin. Each of these worlds was destroyed in turn, and human life was purified and nearly ended by the Great Spirit because of man’s corruption and greed. (3)

In the Hopi cosmology, the universe at first was only infinite blackness in the mind of Taiowa, the Creator. Taiowa made Sotuknang, the first man, and commanded him to order the cosmos. On the first day, Sotuknang divided the universe into nine worlds. One world was reserved for Taiowa, one was for Man, andseven were for future worlds. The present is the Fourth World.

Topkela was the first and most beautiful of the worlds. There, humanity thrived in harmony with Nature in the company of animals. But the Snake spoke and seduced Man away from Taiowa the Creator. Seeing this, Taiowa ordered Satuknang to destroy Tokpela and its inhabitants, except for a few "children of pure heart" whom he sheltered in the center of the Earth when he rained fire upon the planet and burned the sky. The people stayed underground while volcanoes erupted. Afterwards, the people emerged and moved into the second world, Topka, which was less beautiful than the first. There, men lived in huts, learned crafts, and drew apart from Nature. Eventually they became greedy, materialistic, and insatiable as before. Taiowa again ordered Sotuknang to destroy the humans and the world they had ruined. The faithful few again hid underground with the Ant People. The earth rolled over twice, and everything on it was destroyed by ice, which covered everything. After the ice had melted enough to make the world inhabitable, the survivors emerged into the third world, Kuskurza. There, man built cities and tall buildings, and departed further still from the Creator’s nature, becoming very evil. Kuskurza in turn was destroyed by flood. (4-6)

When the Hopi's ancestors emerged from the underworld, they met the demigod Maasaw, who owns this world. Maasaw had been caretaker of the Third World, but because of his pride, he had been demoted to become the god of death. When Kuskurza was destroyed, Taiowa gave Maasaw another chance and appointed him to be the guardian of this world. The people asked Maasaw for permission to live in the new land of Turtle Island (North America). Maasaw said:

"It is up to you, whether you are willing to live my poor, humble and simple life. It is hard, but if you are willing to live according to my teachings and instructions and will never lose faith in the life I shall give you, you may come and live with me. Now you look at me. I am a poor man. I have almost nothing: I have only my planting stick, my seed corn, and a jug of water. I live a simple life. If you wish to live with me, you must sacrifice many things. If you want me for your leader, your chief, you must prove that you can live this way of life.

"Now look around. See this land. It is poor land. There is not much water and very few trees. But this is the richest land. There is great wealth under. But hear this warning --- you are not to disturb this land and take this wealth out as long as there is still war going on. If you do, these things will be used to destroy life and this will not be your salvation...

"Never disturb this land. Do not cede your land to anyone; don't ever give it away. Above all, it is to provide your nourishment. Hold this land dear like a mother as long as you live. If you sell it you will no longer reap crops. Be prepared: one after another people will approach you and put you to the test in this matter.

"If, in addition, you are willing to adopt the religion which I practice, you will derive further benefits for your life... But you have arrived with great ambitions and expectations. When you fall into your evil ways again, you will make me weep...

"All right, you have settled in a desert, yet the land is filled with riches. You reside on the very backbone of the earth. All kinds of precious things are buried in this earth. There exists a storehouse of treasures underground but you must not dig them up yet.

"Three times big war will rage. Should you excavate these treasures while the killing is taking place, powerful weapons will be forged from them and people will be slain by them. If you act on your own in this matter, you will do wrong. Not before the day of purification has been completed, may you unearth these things. At that time people will benefit from them. However, if these wars ever take place here, don’t pick up your weapons, and don’t engage in the business of killing..."

The people asked Maasaw to be their leader, but he declined. He said:

"A greater one than I has given you a plan to fulfill first. When the previous parts of the world were pushed underwater, this new land was pushed up in the middle to become the backbone of the earth. You are now standing on its west side slope. But you have not yet made your migrations. You have not yet followed your stars to the place where you will meet and settle. This you must do before I can become your leader. But if you go back to evil ways again I will take over the earth from you, for I am its caretaker, guardian, and protector... So go now and claim the land with my permission."

Maasaw then placed four different colors and sizes of corn before the leaders of the four different racial groups, and had each one choose which would be their food in this world. The Hopi were the last to choose, and they picked the smallest ear of multi-colored corn. Pleased by their choice, Maasaw said:

"It is well done. You have chosen the real corn, for all the others are imitations inside of which are hidden seeds of different plants. You have shown me your intelligence; for this reason I will place in your hands these owa tutuveni [sacred stone tablets], symbols of power and authority over all land and life to guard, protect, and hold in trust for me until I return to you in a later day, for I am the first, but I am also going to be the last."

One of the three Bear Clan tablets describes the land from the Grand Canyon to the Rio Grande, which was granted by Maasaw to the Hopis. Another tablet is inscribed with mnemonic symbols of prophecies. A third tablet maps the allocations of farmland to the various clans, and delegates leadership to the Bear Clan. The fourth tablet is a very precise map of the location of the Sipaapuni, the great underground city where the Hopi ancestors hid during the destruction of the past worlds. (Figs. 2, 3)

The symbols on the front of the tablet now held by the Fire Clan show the mask of Maasaw and the swastika pattern which represents the Hopi migrations. One corner is missing. The back of the Fire Clan tablet shows the figure of a headless man, which symbolizes the following prophecy:

In a time to come, the Hopis will be forced to develop their lives at the dictates of a new ruler. They are not to resist, but must wait for their Elder Brother, Antsa Qoetsapava Powatanica. A corner of the Fire Clan tablet was broken off and given to the Elder Brother when he left on his migration. He hid it in the Sipaapuni city because he did not want to risk losing it in the course of his travels and reincarnations. He will retrieve it when he returns. In due time, the tablet will be split open to expose interior inscriptions which will reveal the origin and identity of the Hopi. Fitting the missing corner piece to the tablet, the Elder Brother will thus identify himself to the Hopi. The tablet will be split open to expose interior inscriptions which will reveal the origin and identity of the Hopi. Then Pahaana will proceed to deliver them from their persecutors and develop with them a new and universal brotherhood of man. But if he accepts any other religion, he must assent to having his own head cut off. This will dispel the evil and save the Hopi people.

The chief of the Bow Clan led the faithful Hopi to this new land, but he fell into evil ways. His two sons rebuked him for his mistakes, and after he died they assumed the responsibilities of leadership. Then Maasaw sent the Elder Brother to the east and across the ocean. Upon reaching his destination, he was to start back to look for his younger brother, who remained on Turtle Island. The Elder Brother’s mission was to help his younger brother to bring about Purification Day, when evil people would be punished and destroyed. Afterwards, real peace, brotherhood, and everlasting life would be established. The Elder Brother would restore to his younger brother all the land which the Evil One among the white men had taken.

The younger brother (the Hopi ancestors) was instructed to travel throughout Turtle Island and mark his trail with the petroglyphs we see today. This was done to claim the land, and to record and preserve the history of the Indians throughout the reign of white men. The whites would destroy most of the native Americans’ oral history and culture before destroying themselves also.

A great white star would appear when the Elder Brother reached his destination. All people were to settle wherever they happened to be at that time, and there they were to remain until the Elder Brother returned.

The Hopi settled in Tuuwanasavi, the area now known as Four Corners, where the state lines of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado meet. This area is the "heart" of Turtle Island and of Mother Earth, and it is the microcosmic image of the entire planet. There, the Hopi lived a simple life as stewards of the land, which produced abundant crops despite being a desert. Their katsina ceremonies serve to maintain the balance of natural forces and to reaffirm their faith in Taiowa, in Maasaw and other spirits, and to show respect for all life.

Maasaw told the Hopi that after a time Pahana, White Man, would come and take their land and try to lead the Hopi into evil ways. Life would be Koyaanisqatsi ("World out of balance"). The Hopi were told that they must hold to their ancient religion and their land, and they must do it without violence. Maasaw promised that if they succeeded, their people and land would be a center where the True Spirit would reawaken.

Maasaw said that after many years the Elder Brother might change the color of his skin, but his hair will remain black, and he will wear it long, in a braided tail. He will wear a red cloak or a red cap which resembles the back of a horned toad. He will speak the Hopi language, and he will be able to write. He will follow no religion but his very own. He will bring (or come to recover) the missing corner of the owa tutuveni, and he will correctly interpret the tablets.

Figure 5.3
Hopi Owa Tutuveni

The Hopi are to meet him on the trail on the east side of Oraibi if he is on time (on the last day of Soyal, the winter solstice ceremony), or on the trail to Sikya’wa (Yellow Rock), at Chokuw (Pointed Rock), Nahoyungvasa (Cross Fields), or at Tawtona (Where the Sun Ray Goes Over the Line) below Oraibi if he is 5, 10, 15, or 20 years late.

Then, great judgment and punishment will take place. The Elder Brother will help the younger brother obtain justice. In one day he will gain control of the whole continent. Even the Hopi people must beware:

"If he comes from the East, the destruction will not be so bad. But if he comes from the West, do not go up on your housetops to see because he will have no mercy."

It is said that the Elder Brother will bring with him two great, intelligent and powerful helpers. One will have a sign of a swastika and the sign of the sun. The first helper can be interpreted to represent the German-Japanese Axis of World War Two. From the Hopis' perspective, these enemies of the USA were doing the Indians a real service. The second helper will have the sign of a Celtic Cross with red lines between the arms of the cross. In the Hopi symbology, this form of cross represents women, and the red lines indicates their menstrual flow. The symbol represents their liberation and the revival of matriarchal power after ages of suppression.

Maasaw warned that if these great beings failed, terrible evil would befall the world and great numbers of people would be killed. However, they would succeed if enough Hopi remained true to the ancient spirit of their people. Unfortunately, there are very few traditionalist Hopis remaining today, so the situation looks very bleak.

Hopi prophecy states that World War III will be started by the people who first received the light -- China, Palestine, India and Africa. When the war comes, the United States will be destroyed by "a gourd of ashes" which will be thrown to the ground. The rivers will boil, the earth shall burn, and no grass will grow there for many years. It will cause a disease that no medicine can cure. This can only mean that nuclear weapons will be used against the USA. The Hopi traditionalist Thomas Banyaca has said that if many US soldiers are sent overseas, they will be killed by atomic bombs, and then Turtle Island also will be bombed. "Men will fall from the sky", meaning that invading soldiers will parachute to earth. Another Hopi prophecy states:

"When the Blue Star Kachina dances in the plaza, the time of the great trial will be here... The end of all Hopi ceremonies will come when a Kachina removes his mask during a dance in the plaza before uninitiated children. For a while there will be no more ceremonies, no more faith. Then Oraibi will be rejuvenated with its faith and ceremonies, marking the start of a new cycle of Hopi life."

The following Hopi prophecy was first published in a mimeographed manuscript that circulated among several Methodist and Presbyterian churches in 1959. While driving along a desert road one hot day in the summer of 1958, a minister named David Young stopped to offer a ride to a Hopi elder, who accepted with a nod. After riding in silence for several minutes, the elder said:

"I am White Feather, a Hopi of the ancient Bear Clan. In my long life I have traveled through this land, seeking out my brothers, and learning from them many things full of wisdom. I have followed the sacred paths of my people, who inhabit the forests and many lakes in the east, the land of ice and long nights in the north, the mountains and streams of jumping fish in the west, and the places of holy altars of stone built long ago by my brothers' fathers in the south. From all these I have heard the stories of the past, and the prophecies of the future. Today, many of the prophecies have turned to stories, and few are left --- the past grows longer, and the future grows shorter.

"And now White Feather is dying. His sons have all joined his ancestors, and soon he too shall be with them. But there is no one left, no one to recite and pass on the ancient wisdom. My people have tired of the old ways. The great ceremonies that tell of our origins, of our Emergence into the Fourth World, are almost all abandoned, forgotten. Yet even this has been foretold. The time grows short..

"My people await Pahana, the lost White Brother, as do all our brothers in the land. He will not be like the white men we know now, who are cruel and greedy. We were told of their coming long ago. But still we await Pahana.

"He will bring with him the symbols, the missing piece of that sacred tablet now kept by the elders, given to him when he left, that shall identify him as our True White Brother.

"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana --- men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.

"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of the spinning wheels of wood filled with voices. In my youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes --- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies.

"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast, like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his own eyes --- the coming of the white mens' cattle.

"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be criss-crossed by snakes of iron.

"This is the Fifth Sign: The land will be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web.

"This is the Sixth Sign: The land will be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun.

"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it.

"This is the Eighth Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.

"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands --- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying. Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon --- very soon afterward --- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

"But White Feather shall not see it. I am old and dying. You --- perhaps you will see it. In time, in time..."

The Hopi elder became silent. They had arrived at his destination, and Rev. Young stopped to let him out of the car. They never met again. Rev. Young died in 1976, so he did not live to see the further fulfillment of this remarkable prophecy.

The signs are interpreted thus: The First Sign is of guns, and the Second is of the pioneers’ covered wagons. The Third Sign is of longhorn cattle. The Fourth describes railroad tracks, and the Fifth is a clear image of electric power and telephone lines. The Sixth Sign describes concrete highways and their effect of producing mirages. The Seventh Sign predicts catastrophic oil spills such as the Exxon Valdez. The Eighth Sign suggests the hippy movement of the 1960s and 70s. The Ninth Sign was the US space station Skylab, which fell to Earth in 1979. According to Australian eyewitnesses, it appeared to be burning blue. Or, the Russian space station Mir may be indicated here.

Another version of this prophecy says that when a black ribbon (the highway) is built on the land, a bug (the automobile) will move on it, and this will be this sign for the first shaking of the Earth, World War One. The first shaking will be so violent that the bug will be shaken off the earth and will begin to fly (the airplane), leaving a trail of dirt behind it. Eventually the sky will become so dirty that it will cause diseases that will become worse and worse. This may refer to the current controversy about "chem-trails", the aerial web of chemical sprays that are beings spewed over America.

Another Hopi prophecy warns that nothing should be brought back from the Moon --- obviously anticipating the Apollo 11 mission that returned with samples of lunar basalt. The Hopi warned that it would disturb the balance of natural and universal laws and forces, resulting in earthquakes, severe changes in weather patterns, and social unrest. All these things are happening today.

In 1948, the Hopi spiritualist leaders chose four representatives to approach the United Nations. Because of their prophetic knowledge, the Hopi leaders felt it was time to go east to the edge of Turtle Island, where a "House of Mica [glass] would stand at this time, where Great Leaders from many lands would be gathered to help any people who are in trouble". They were to go there when the lands of the Hopi and other Indian brothers were about to be taken away from them and their way of life was in danger of being completely destroyed by evil ones among the white men and by some other Indian brothers who were influenced by the white race. This is a clear and present danger, because the infernal meddling of Christians, the betrayal of treaties by the federal government, the sale of tribal lands by Indians, and the ecological disasters caused by coal and uranium mining, are destroying the Hopi land and people, and all native Americans.

According to prophecy, at least one, two, or three leaders or nations would hear and understand the Hopi warnings, for they too should know the ancient instructions. Upon hearing the message of the Hopi, they were to act immediately to correct many wrongs being done to the Red Man. However, the Hopi might find that the doors of the Mica House would be closed to them:

"When Great Leaders in the Mica House refuse to open the door when you stand before it that day, do not be discouraged or turn about on the path you walk, but take courage, determination, and be of great rejoicing in your hearts, for on that day the White Race who are on your land with you have cut themselves from you and thereon lead themselves to the greatest Punishment at the Day of Purification. Men shall be destroyed for their sins and evil ways. The Great Spirit has decreed it and no one can stop it, change it, or add anything to it. It shall be fulfilled!"

In 1959, another delegation of six traditional Hopi elders, led by Dan Katchongva, traveled to the UN building. Their prophecies foretold that if the Hopi’s request to address the House of Mica was refused after knocking (visiting) four times, mankind would surely be destroyed. Thomas Banyaca knocked for the fourth time in 1991, and was permitted to address the General Assembly for a few minutes during the opening ceremonies of the UN's International Year of Indigenous Peoples December 10, 1992). He was the last speaker, and only a few UN delegates remained to hear him. He said:

"We have made a sacred covenant to follow Maasaw, the Great Spirit's Life Plan at all times, which includes the responsibility of taking care of this land and life for his divine purpose. Our goals are not to gain political control, monetary wealth, or military power, but rather to pray and to promote the welfare of all living beings and to preserve the world in a natural way."

Banyaca then told the Hopi story of the previous worlds which were destroyed because of human greed, and warned that this world, too, is near its end. He said:

"This is now a time to weigh the choices for our future. We do have a choice. If you, the nations of this Earth, create another great war, the Hopi believe we humans will burn ourselves to death with ashes. That's why the spiritual Elders strongly urge that the United Nations fully open the door for Native spiritual leaders as soon as possible... The Native peoples of the world have seen and spoken to you about the destruction of their lives and homelands, the ruination of nature and the desecration of their sacred sites. It is time the United Nations used its rules to investigate these occurrences and stop them now."

Grandfather Banyaca requested that the UN protect the Four Corners area, because it will have a special purpose in the future survival of humankind. He asked that the UN keep its doors open for spiritual leaders of all peoples "to come to speak to you for more than a few minutes". He also invited world leaders to visit the Hopi country and "sit down with our real spiritual leaders in their sacred kiva" and learn their "ancient secrets of survival and balance." The UN has failed to respond.

A 9th century Tibetan prophecy states:

"When the iron bird flies, the Dharma [Buddhism] will go east to the land of the Red Man."

This prophecy was fulfilled in 1980 when the Dalai Lama visited America and met with Hopi elders in Los Angeles and with leaders of the Iroquois Confederacy in Syracuse, NY. (7)

Between 1975 and 1986, a group of traditionalist elders and English-speaking Hopis cooperated to produce 44 issues of a newsletter called Techqua Ikach (Land & Life), totaling over 200 pages which outlined their prophetic message in great detail. In 1993, Thomas Mails was selected by Dan Evehema (then 100 years old) to represent the authorized prophecies. The resulting book Hotevila was written in complete secrecy to prevent interference from the Hopi Tribal Council. (8)

The prophecies transmitted in Techqua Ikach state:

"One day Hopi children with short hair or bald heads would be the ears and mouth for the elders, and in time become the leaders. So the Hopi Tribal Council was formed...The Bahanas’ government will gradually cease their responsibility in caring for the Native people... Any mistake we make will be our own doing. The Bahana government would not be responsible. Their influence would linger on in making sure we run our government the Bahana way, not by our own... traditional ways... If we link ourselves with a culture not of our own... it will be difficult to regain what we discard in the name of progress. Of course we can continue to practice what we lose, but it will have lost its value. What happens at the end will be the consequences of our carelessness.

"According to prophecy, the Hopi are to be the last target. We are to be conquered, not by the Army and their weapons, but by our own people. By our sons and daughters without us lifting our hands. Their weapon will be what they learned through the education so kindly taught by the Bahana... The Bahanas will pat the back of the conquerors while cheering and applauding. They will be satisfied that they are not required to finish the task which they set out to accomplish. It is our own people who bring this about and the Bahanas, therefore, cannot be blamed. The conquest will be over and all Native People will be finished. This is a sad ending and it is a pity that we must end this way...

"It is said if purification does not come, our Great Creator will take the land back because we do not care for the land and we don’t deserve to be on it. The above subject, to our children, is soundless and has no meaning...

"One day our own children may become our enemies. Schools will destroy the sacred balance of Hopi life. They will interrupt the traditions and people will forget the instructions of Maasaw. This destruction will reach much further than our village. The whole Earth could go off balance.

"As foretold, all of this information must come out into the open at the period when we are about to be overcome by harmful elements and can step no further...

"Just two or three righteous people will be able to fulfill the Creator’s mission. Even one truly righteous would be able to do it...

"Three people were named who were to help the Hopi when we reached the crisis of no return. The Paiute Indian was to help according to his wisdom, but if he is unable the Navajo Indian will help also, according to his wisdom. If their efforts fail then Bahana will come to aid. This is where we are now...

"So it was predicted that one day we would encounter the presence of people with ways different from our own; they will pose as good-hearted. Their words will be charming and they will multiply like ants. We must not be deceived by them, for the vines of their kingdom will spread throughout the land, diluting and dissolving everything that gets in its way. We must be cautious and not covet or adopt any of their ways, for it will forever be a curse upon our nation....

"It is said, among the Bahana the people of the Cross will appear on our land. They will be kind and helpful with good hearts. Beware, for they will be the instruments of Bahana’s kingdom and will seduce you into forsaking the laws of our Great Creator. The wicked of our people will join their flock to clear their sins, but this will be in vain...

"One day a strange people will appear in our midst, people who will create man in his own image. Once given his language and knowledge, our people will become the instrument by which he will try to rule over us and carve the rest of us into his image. Our own people will become his tools, and he will make certain they do a good job.

"But if we remain strong and firmly rooted, we will not be reshaped, whereas others will slump because they are rootless. So when the tests come we must possess the strength to preserve ourselves...

"The Earth is like a spotted fawn, and each spot has a duty to make the body function. Hopiland is the center of the earth’s body. It is the spot of power with the duty to foretell the future by comparing the actions of mankind with the prophecy told them..."

Martin Gawanesha, a traditionalist Hopi elder, emphasizes that most of the events predicted by their prophecies already have happened, and that the Great Purification is imminent:

"Life has become out of balance. When people are so out of balance, some one will hear our voice and our White Brother will answer the call and clean away the evil ones. According to prophecy, when the purification is over only a handful of people will survive in every nation overseas. Then they will come to this continent, which we call heaven. This is where the Creator first lived and that’s what he called it. He sent his own son from Oraibi to Bethlehem in order to be born there. The Hopi already knew that the morning star would rise one day and someone special would be born...

"In our prophecies there are two brothers, one dark-skinned younger brother and the light-skinned elder who we call the White Brother. Together they will decide how the purification will be accomplished.

"The two brothers were with us when we first came to this continent. When their father passed away, the elder brother went out in the direction of the sunrise and the younger brother stayed here. They had agreed the elder brother would go, but would not stay away too long. He would return when people would travel on a road built in the air. At that time we would know that the earth had been corrupted to the point that it must be purified.

"We've come to that point now. Everything has been corrupted. Because we are out of balance, we don’t obey the laws... It's too late now for gradual voluntary corrections...

"As Hopis... we are calling for the purification because it is our obligation. We're ready, we want it to happen... We've already gone over the time limit that was given to us in the prophecy..." (7)

Hopi prophecy also warns that there will be three divisions among the Hopi. The first division was in 1906 between the traditionalists and the modernists. The traditionalists were forced to leave Oraibi and move to Hotevila. The second division took place in the aftermath of a spectacular UFO sighting in August 1970. The third division is occurring now as the Tribal Council has forced the installation of electric power and other modern inconveniences upon the unwilling traditionalist residents of Hotevila.

During the Hopi Hearings of 1955, many elders spoke forth to remind people of the ancient prophecies. One elder said:

"Then the sun won’t be as hot any more, and the summer season will grow shorter and shorter. One day the weather will no longer get warm. You will experience snowfall at the height of planting time. Then you will have to sow wearing gloves and long underwear. To sow, the farmer will have to push aside the snow, dig a hole, and then plant his seeds. It will come to this if you extract those precious things from the earth.

"And all the grasses across the land, which many different animals feed on to raise their young, will not grow as before. In the future the animals will suffer great hardships. Then the grasses will not sprout. There will be no point in having rain; nothing will grow as it used to.

"Gradually your corn plants will produce only tassels and then everything will freeze. And when you replant, only tiny, stunted ears will appear, and then they too will freeze. The third time you sow, the stalks will still be short before the frost strikes. By the fourth time the plants will barely have pierced the earth before freezing. All of these predictions Maasaw made to the Hopi." (8, 9)

The newsletter Techqua Ikach warned people thus:

"When the end is near, we will see a halo of mist around the heavenly bodies. Four times it will appear around the sun as a warning that we must reform, telling us that people of all color must unite and arise for survival...

"We were warned the ice will grow again. Should the [Flute] Clans with the controlling powers vanish or stray away from the great laws of the Creator, there will be no way of stopping the ice buildup. So the time will come when we will experience late springs and early frosts, this will be the sign of the returning Ice Age...

"The time will come when from the Earth will arise a mystic fog which will dilute the minds and hearts of all people... A sudden eruption will explode in the midst of their follies, and this will... creep over the earth. Then men will destroy each other savagely...

"The day will come when people in high places will be hunted and vice versa, the lowly hunters will be hunted. This will get out of control. The hunting will gather strength and spread far and wide...

"The period of this age will close by the gourd of ashes which will glow brighter than the Sun. The earth will turn over four times and mankind will end up in the lowest level of darkness there they will crawl around on all fours forever. Then the spirits of our Ancient Fathers will return to reclaim the land. They will mock the lowly man for he will no longer deserve or be worthy of the land. Only those who are obedient to the guidance of the Great Creator’s laws will survive... the true brother and sister will give a rebirth to the Earth and renew its life."

The Elder Thomas Banyaca adds this warning:

"If corruption of nature becomes so thick and pollution so thick, we will be in darkness, and if we don’t change things, the animals... they’re going to yell at us. Pretty soon the eagles flying over us will be going to cry at us; when you walk in the woods, the trees, some will cry at you --- because human beings are supposed to take care of them also, through prayer, meditation, and ceremony instead of destroying them with machinery and inventions that you have made..."

It is also said elsewhere in Hopi prophecy, that "Turtle Island could turn over two or three times and the oceans join hands and meet the sky." Several passages in the Bible also suggest that the Earth will some day roll over in its orbit (Isaiah 13:13; and 24:1, 19, 20, 23; Matthew 24: 29; Revelation 6:12-14; II Peter 3:10; Amos 8:8, 9). Since 1931, geophysicists have detected nearly 500 shifts of the north magnetic pole, moving northwest.

After the Great Deluge several thousand years ago, the survivors split up into four groups, who migrated north, south, east and west. Only one group completed their journey --- to the North Pole and back --- under the guidance of a brilliant "star" in which Maasaw traveled. When he landed, Maasaw drew the petroglyph on Second Mesa, showing a maiden (with the traditional "butterfly" hair arrangement) riding in a wingless, dome-shaped craft. The petroglyph tells of the coming Day of Purification, when the true Hopi will fly to other planets in "flying shields". (Fig. 4)

Figure 5.4
Second Mesa Petroglyph

Figure 5.5
Prophecy Rock

[scottja]

Where is the evidence that the "current" population of "Jews" is the actual bloodline from ancient Israel?

I mean with so many wars and being carried away, and the Babylonia, Assyrians, Ottomans, etc...
Sometimes I wonder if the true blood of Israel has been "preserved" somewhere else, and that the current peoples that live in the region of the country of Israel are converted Jews - peoples who converted to Judaism.

[believer]

Britja--

Thank you for all that information on the Hopi's. That is extremely interesting.

The Hopi's have kept their integrity, while some other tribes have not.


Believer

[believer]

Britja---

Again, thank you for the info on the Cherokees here: http://ldscherokeefamily.homestead.com/

I have read some of it, but not all. It is very interesting.


Believer

[believer]

Britja---

Again, thank you for the info on the Cherokee here: http://ldscherokeefamily.homestead.com/

I have read some of it, but not all. I am looking forward to reading all of it.


Believer

[clarkkent14]

Interesting...

[Fiannan]

Saw some of this movie today:

http://www.amazon.com/Kings-Sun-Yul-Bry ... B0010YSDA4

I really wondered if the maker was Mormon or had Mormon influence. A Mayan tribe flees a hostile tribe by getting on ships and going north. The irony is that a more North American Indian tribe, primitive, encounters them and the Mayans are looked upon like invaders with weird technology and skills.

The majority of the Mayans are dark, except for the royals and priests, who even have blue eyes. I could not help but think this is probably what Nephite society was like and again, why Alma makes a big deal out of being a descendant of Lehi. Obviously that was a sign of distinction that most Nephites probably did not have.

I also have a book about American Indians that pointed out that Inca for example usually had a tribe of people who formed the elite of their society, but that the bulk of the population did not share that trait. When there was a war the point was to wipe out the ruling people and the rest of the population would merely accept a new dynasty/people. I would not be at all surprised if both the Nephites and Lamanites did what the Egyptians did and married their close relatives to maintain racial purity.