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Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 3:49 am
by freedomforall
Mahonri wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:"Nit Picky" is not the correct term. The correct term is: "Accurate". Accuracy is crucial even in understanding the meaning of scripture. We should be accurate with information given in talks in Sacrament. Likewise, do we want to be "Nit Picky" about the Constitution, or do we want to be accurate in what it says and how it should be embraced by members of the church as well as others?

looking beyond the mark, missing the point, etc. The POINT of the recounting was to explain a principle, not give a history lesson.
Prpehas I wnet bnyod the mrak. I jsut wdeonr why wehn seomeon conanot elaixpn the dscepianrcy in the nreburms taht I pesenretd crnonceing the viaynrg qtaunity of snirges taht wree suspoped to hvae aperaepd to WW, trhee is an apmettt to dmisinih waht I siad by fniindg fluat wtih it. It semes to me, one desnot hvae to tkae retibspsoniliy for tiher own lnie of tnihknig or uedrnstdannig in dniog so.

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 9:08 am
by Mahonri
Wow, that was impressive, but I could still read it.

I was saying that your dismissal of the talk because he didn't state the numbers exactly right was less than wise since the numbers was not the point of the talk. We can still discuss the validity if you want, but based on that fact alone is just plain silly.

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 11:03 am
by Fiannan
Help me to understand something. When did church authorities say we could catagorize sin at any degree? All it takes is one sin to keep any of us out of the presence of God. Is there any difference between someone being FAT as opposed to someone else cheating a business partner? In the eyes of God, which of these sinners have a better chance for the Celestial Kingdom, a pick-pocket or a rapist? Or the person that gets a tattoo as opposed to he who is a Meth head? How about a person that uses foul language on other motorists as opposed to someone that is addicted to pornography?

On a lighter side, I once saw a guy wearing a T-shirt that read: I'M FAT, But you are ugly, and I can go on a diet?

Fat people could wear a yellow T-shirt that reads: CAUTION!, WIDE LOAD. And if they're real heavy it would read: CAUTION! EXTRA WIDE LOAD. That way they're less likely to offend anyone.
Okay, so if I wear a blue shirt to church this Sunday I am sinning? If my wife has two ear piercings instead of one she is sinning? I think we should be very careful about what we see as sin and what is merely doing something that is not entirely an aspect of a cultural norm or not. If a woman wore a skirt that was showing her ankles in 1900 I am sure she would have been told to go home from church and put on someting more modest. Today practicaly all women in church wear dresses that show the ankles. Dress styles, ear rings, etc. are cultural norms. I understand why the counsel was given since there are still some people who perceive a tatoo or multiple ear ring on a woman as advertising she is loose, but that is rapidly changing as the cultural norm will change. That does not mean it is a sin to do these things, it is just something that has been discussed due to image.

Also, yes we can categorize sin -- we do it every day in all aspects of life. We most certainly see a child molester as a horrendous sinner as opposed to someone who drives
over the speed limit on an isolated freeway. Sins that hurt others are much more henous to God than something that might hurt one's self. In the Old Testament a big sin required a big sacrifice while a little one required something small.

Saying all sin is equal is sending a dangerous message to young people. On a radio talk show I heard a little of last night they had a Mormon porn actress (probably former) interviewed. So is a girl with a navel piercing at the same level as the woman on the talk show?

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 11:10 am
by Mahonri
off topic, but double piercings is a sin, not only because the Book of Mormon says so, but for those that throw out their scriptures every-time we get a new Church President, the youth handbook says the same thing as President Hinckley said on the issue.

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 3:52 pm
by freedomforall
Fiannan wrote:
Help me to understand something. When did church authorities say we could catagorize sin at any degree? All it takes is one sin to keep any of us out of the presence of God. Is there any difference between someone being FAT as opposed to someone else cheating a business partner? In the eyes of God, which of these sinners have a better chance for the Celestial Kingdom, a pick-pocket or a rapist? Or the person that gets a tattoo as opposed to he who is a Meth head? How about a person that uses foul language on other motorists as opposed to someone that is addicted to pornography?

On a lighter side, I once saw a guy wearing a T-shirt that read: I'M FAT, But you are ugly, and I can go on a diet?

Fat people could wear a yellow T-shirt that reads: CAUTION!, WIDE LOAD. And if they're real heavy it would read: CAUTION! EXTRA WIDE LOAD. That way they're less likely to offend anyone.
Okay, so if I wear a blue shirt to church this Sunday I am sinning? If my wife has two ear piercings instead of one she is sinning? I think we should be very careful about what we see as sin and what is merely doing something that is not entirely an aspect of a cultural norm or not. If a woman wore a skirt that was showing her ankles in 1900 I am sure she would have been told to go home from church and put on someting more modest. Today practicaly all women in church wear dresses that show the ankles. Dress styles, ear rings, etc. are cultural norms. I understand why the counsel was given since there are still some people who perceive a tatoo or multiple ear ring on a woman as advertising she is loose, but that is rapidly changing as the cultural norm will change. That does not mean it is a sin to do these things, it is just something that has been discussed due to image.

Also, yes we can categorize sin -- we do it every day in all aspects of life. We most certainly see a child molester as a horrendous sinner as opposed to someone who drives
over the speed limit on an isolated freeway. Sins that hurt others are much more henous to God than something that might hurt one's self. In the Old Testament a big sin required a big sacrifice while a little one required something small.

Saying all sin is equal is sending a dangerous message to young people. On a radio talk show I heard a little of last night they had a Mormon porn actress (probably former) interviewed. So is a girl with a navel piercing at the same level as the woman on the talk show? Answer...did they both sin?
Christ said, he that is without sin, cast the first stone. Did he say, those of you that only cheat, lie, swear and get piercings can throw stones at her, but those of you that committed adultery or fornication, you stay still? Somehow I don't think so. Sin is sin.

It's real sad that too many members of the church are still bent on following the precepts of man. What purpose is there to send out a message that says it's okay to have a tattoo, but don't ever look at porno. Man has and always will be apt to commit more and more sin UNLESS he yields his heart to Christ and is reborn. Small sins, as you put, eventually leads to large ones. With the exception of cold blooded murder and sin against the Holy Ghost, sin cannot be catagorized. If you want to know what message to put out to our young people, it's not the concept as to whether or not all is is equal, it is to not sin at all. Get yourself a copy of Stephen E Robinson's book "Believing Christ" and then tell me that sins are not equal. And believe me, Stephen has had articles in the Ensign about this subject. This is what God says about it:

Alma 45: 16
16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

D&C 1: 31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

The wearing of a blue shirt is not sin, it is nothing more than a dress code. Let's get real here, a man working a farm in a remote area that attends church in overalls is not a sin. Clothes that are clean and the person is tidy and striving to keep the commandments is all that is expected. There again, it is only people that have a tendency toward snubbing their nose at the "non conformest" that the real problem lies. In this case, who is the real sinner, the person wearing overalls, or the people snubbing their noses at him. This is nothing more than intense PRIDE, a sin. Why else would God say He will not allow SIN IN THE LEAST DEGREE?

God forgives a porno star just as he would an alcoholic. If he were to catagorize sin, there would be a whole lot less of us going to heaven. And, yes, even fully repentent sex offenders can go to heaven. Why else would God say:

3 Nephi 12:43,44
43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;
44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

And heed this:

Mosiah 26:30,31

30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me. Did he say, "except for" in whatever catagory?
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation. We are commanded to LOVE EVERYONE!

Too many people in the church think they are judge and jury for those who commit heiness sin. They, the accusers, will be the real loser in the end.

God will not allow SIN IN THE LEAST DEGREE

The ATONEMENT is for everyone!! :)

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 4:47 pm
by Fiannan
Small sins, as you put...
No, you misunderstood me...I did not say wearing a blue shirt to church or getting a piercing was a sin.

Re: Wilford Woodruffs Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: July 2nd, 2010, 11:26 pm
by freedomforall
Fiannan wrote:
Small sins, as you put...
No, you misunderstood me...I did not say wearing a blue shirt to church or getting a piercing was a sin.

Sorry! Thanks for pointing this out.
And as far as piercings are concerned, (and I'm not suggesting you condone or allow a child to do this), the church does not condone them, nevertheless, they have tolerated ear piercing. And weren't there a some female missionaries in SLC that got in trouble for getting "just a little tattoo"? I came close to getting a tattoo while in the military in the late sixties, but then quickly changed my mind because I knew it would have been a sin that everyone could have seen for the rest of my life. And even after one repents for it, the mark is still there.

Oh, upon further research I found another great scripture that answers the catagorization issue:

James 2: 10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. This is also covered in Stephen E Robinson's book, "Believing Christ". I highly recommend this book. It greatly helped me.
Therefore, someone stealing a candy bar from a store is just as guilty as he who commits adultery, or worse.

I wonder how many in the church think this way:
2 Ne. 28: 8
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous territory, wouldn't you agree?

Which brings me to another post I'm submitting: Do we remember our forgiven sins after death?

Re: John Taylor's Ogden Tabernacle Vision

Posted: October 20th, 2015, 5:25 pm
by freedomforall
Jason wrote:Also covered in detail in Brent and Blaine Yorgasen's Last Day's book....

and Duane Crowther's Master's Thesis that eventually became the book Prophecy: Key to the Future
Jason, what page in Crowther's book is the dream cited on?

And what ever became of Cowboy and Quiet Cricket.