LDS official calls for political diversity (1998)

[natasha]

I thought this was a great new topic to post here and should lead to some great discussions. This is a news article regarding a statement by Elder Jensen of the Seventy (then) about the need for more political diversity in Utah and in the Church.

http://www.utahcountydems.com/content/view/178

[Mahonri]

He has the right to his opinion. I like the words of the Lord myself though personally.

D&C 38: 27 if ye are not one, ye are not mine

[Original_Intent]

Some of his points were valid. But there was plenty that reminded me of living down wind of my uncles dairy farm.

[Fiannan]

Oh come on, there is strength in diversity. Now where is that found in the scriptures?

[Geeswell]

I'm just recently getting "interested" in politics. My own thinking was like President Benson's "[..hard for a good latter day saint to be a liberal Democrat..]"

maybe im naive.

This paper left me feeling a bit empty inside. Sure, the church doesn't pick sides, but I just don't see how people need to seek out political diversity, when they are both so different. (some would argue that they are not, but aside from that...)

its not like picking a blue t-shirt or a red one. these are some serious issues, and this report makes it sound like a game, or we have to be fair. I had to laugh at the "balance". kinda made me sick to my stomach.

It seems so...hypocritical? I'm not meaning to speak evil...

This paper seriously leaves me feeling bothered.

someone please explain to me how having a diverse ideology in politics is ok in our day. seriously, this leaves me begging to understand

[Original_Intent]

The only way diversity as far as party is OK is if people are supporting correct principles and are trying to bring their respective parties in line with those principles.

Sadly too many people bet too much of their identy and values FROM the party they belong to, instead of basing their principles on the gospel and trying to influence their party. And too many people choose a party on how good it makes them feel, rather than that it conforms to political principles we have been taught by modern day prophets. Republicans "feel good" about being pro war because they enjoy going to the stadium of fire, seeing our jets fly over, listening to a "patriotic" entertainer (Miley Cyrus last year, who recently showed her true colors as well as a few other things that should have ben kept covered!) and watching fireworks. 65,000 people in LAVELL EDWARDS STADIUM can't be wrong! And Democrats are worse, they focus so much on how much good they feel like they are doing, they avoid noticing that they are stealing to do it, and they really are not helping those who they claim to be doing so much good for. But it feels so good to be charitable with other people's money!

That said I think it is possible to be a good Democrat and a good Mormon. I think Jim Matheson has made a lot of mistakes, but I think he was a better Congressman than Cannon, and although I don't know him or Chris personally, he seems like a better member of the church (and I don't even know if he is a member!)

In my opinion, in the current environment, LDS members should be Indepedent or if they must align with a party, probably Constitution Party. But the GOP is the "winning team" in Utah, and everyone wants to be a winner.

[p51-mustang]

heres what Benson said:

"So, I say with all the energy of my soul that unless we as citizens of this nation forsake our sins, political and otherwise, and return to the fundamental principles of Christianity and of constitutional government, we will lose our political liberties, our free institutions, and will stand in jeopardy before God."

[p51-mustang]

I read the article and I dont really see anything wrong per se about what was said by Jensen. Alot of good points were made. I do think that the republicans platform does square more fully with the members belief system whereas the dems platform, much of it goes against what the members believe. If the dems want our participation and support then why dont they change their platform so members will feel comfortable in thier tent. I for one could not feel comfortable supporting all their socialism so thats why I'm not in that party. Of course I dont like the repubs much either since they are pro corporatism and pro warfare. Both parties are bereft of values IMHO.

I would like to hear a statement that states the real heart of the matter though. That secret combinations control both parties and both parties at the upper levels are working to destroy America!

[oneClimbs]

I read the article and I dont really see anything wrong per se about what was said by Jensen. Alot of good points were made. I do think that the republicans platform does square more fully with the members belief system whereas the dems platform, much of it goes against what the members believe. If the dems want our participation and support then why dont they change their platform so members will feel comfortable in thier tent. I for one could not feel comfortable supporting all their socialism so thats why I'm not in that party. Of course I dont like the repubs much either since they are pro corporatism and pro warfare. Both parties are bereft of values IMHO.

I would like to hear a statement that states the real heart of the matter though. That secret combinations control both parties and both parties at the upper levels are working to destroy America!

The "Republican Party" or as I like to call it, the "Right Wing of the Whore", took us into several illegal wars by passing Unconstitutional 'patriot' acts that allow us to declare anyone an enemy combatant, any person, any nation, doubled our national debt and committed many other horrors upon the American people. People, Democrats and Republicans are 'offense' and 'defense' of the same team, their values are the same even though they wear a fake mask to fool people. Those things are not parts of my belief system.

Democrats and Republicans are not Socialists, they are Facists. Facists seek to build a nation upon corporatist methods, big corporations in charge and that's exactly what we have, just not in name, just not publicly. But look how this country is run, with businesses that are 'too big to fail'...

If you really need a statement to solidify in your mind what is really going on right now, here's a statement for you:

"Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, and confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the president of the United States; it is not Hitler; it is not Mussolini; it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself."
— Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation)

Then there's this of course:

Ether 8:24,25
...because of this secret combination which shall be among you; ... For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil...

There is in this world a Satanic conspiracy at the top levels of all the nations of the earth. Talking about Democrats and Republicans is a distraction, irrelevant and misleading. If you believe the Book of Mormon and the words of our prophets, you need to look these people in the eye and call them what they are. People do not realize the true nature of the danger we are in, they are out for blood and horror upon this earth. You have more to fear from a man in a suit than a man in a turban.

[Wiikwajio]

The "Republican Party" or as I like to call it, the "Right Wing of the Whore",

Perfect!

[ithink]

All political parties other than any that are totally independent are wrapped up in the toilet. If the church doesn't like polarized party politics, rather than a press conference, they could fix it by teaching constitutional principles from the pulpit, starting with the D&C and AofF 12. That is the duty of the church, and when it does not happen, the membership don't do their duty either and they can in a way, blame the church if the church isn't doing it itself. I mean, if we have the doctrine, and it is clear, and the people are not taught the doctrine, then where are we told the blame will fall? Does Jacob give us the answer, or does he not?

[Mahonri]

All political parties other than any that are totally independent are wrapped up in the toilet. If the church doesn't like polarized party politics, rather than a press conference, they could fix it by teaching constitutional principles from the pulpit, starting with the D&C and AofF 12. That is the duty of the church, and when it does not happen, the membership don't do their duty either and they can in a way, blame the church if the church isn't doing it itself. I mean, if we have the doctrine, and it is clear, and the people are not taught the doctrine, then where are we told the blame will fall? Does Jacob give us the answer, or does he not?

I understand where you are coming from, but we have been warned. We are not completely blameless. I am not that old, and I was able to find the teachings of the leaders of the Church on the topic. If I can, anyone can. If they do not want to, that is there problem and condemnation. We cannot continue to be commanded in all things if we are to progress as individuals. those that are waiting to act until they are told to will be damned.

[Swmorgan77]

I thought this was a great new topic to post here and should lead to some great discussions. This is a news article regarding a statement by Elder Jensen of the Seventy (then) about the need for more political diversity in Utah and in the Church.

http://www.utahcountydems.com/content/view/178

Diversity of parties being worked within to advance correct principles = good.

Diversity of principles to include bad ones = bad.

[Wiikwajio]

All political parties other than any that are totally independent are wrapped up in the toilet. If the church doesn't like polarized party politics, rather than a press conference, they could fix it by teaching constitutional principles from the pulpit, starting with the D&C and AofF 12. That is the duty of the church, and when it does not happen, the membership don't do their duty either and they can in a way, blame the church if the church isn't doing it itself. I mean, if we have the doctrine, and it is clear, and the people are not taught the doctrine, then where are we told the blame will fall? Does Jacob give us the answer, or does he not?

As Benson said:

An faithful member in this dispensation, no matter when he lived, could have found righteous methods to have carried out these objectives without having to wait for the latest, specific Church-wide program.

Sometimes the Lord hopefully waits on his children to act on their own, and when they do not, they lose the greater prize, and the Lord will either drop the entire matter and let them suffer the consequences or else he will have to spell it out in greater detail. Usually, I fear, the more he has to spell it out, the smaller is our reward.

Often, because of circumstances, the Lord, through revelation to his prophets or through inspired programs designed by faithful members which later become adopted on a Church-wide basis, will give to all the membership a righteous means to help accomplish the objective; for instance, any member of the Church a century ago who studied Church doctrine would have known that he had the prime responsibility to see that his children had spiritualized family recreation and were taught in the home lessons in character building and gospel principles. But some did not do it.

[p51-mustang]

I read the article and I dont really see anything wrong per se about what was said by Jensen. Alot of good points were made. I do think that the republicans platform does square more fully with the members belief system whereas the dems platform, much of it goes against what the members believe. If the dems want our participation and support then why dont they change their platform so members will feel comfortable in thier tent. I for one could not feel comfortable supporting all their socialism so thats why I'm not in that party. Of course I dont like the repubs much either since they are pro corporatism and pro warfare. Both parties are bereft of values IMHO.

I would like to hear a statement that states the real heart of the matter though. That secret combinations control both parties and both parties at the upper levels are working to destroy America!

The "Republican Party" or as I like to call it, the "Right Wing of the Whore", took us into several illegal wars by passing Unconstitutional 'patriot' acts that allow us to declare anyone an enemy combatant, any person, any nation, doubled our national debt and committed many other horrors upon the American people. People, Democrats and Republicans are 'offense' and 'defense' of the same team, their values are the same even though they wear a fake mask to fool people. Those things are not parts of my belief system.

Democrats and Republicans are not Socialists, they are Facists. Facists seek to build a nation upon corporatist methods, big corporations in charge and that's exactly what we have, just not in name, just not publicly. But look how this country is run, with businesses that are 'too big to fail'...

If you really need a statement to solidify in your mind what is really going on right now, here's a statement for you:

"Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, and confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the president of the United States; it is not Hitler; it is not Mussolini; it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself."
— Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation)

Then there's this of course:

Ether 8:24,25
...because of this secret combination which shall be among you; ... For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil...

There is in this world a Satanic conspiracy at the top levels of all the nations of the earth. Talking about Democrats and Republicans is a distraction, irrelevant and misleading. If you believe the Book of Mormon and the words of our prophets, you need to look these people in the eye and call them what they are. People do not realize the true nature of the danger we are in, they are out for blood and horror upon this earth. You have more to fear from a man in a suit than a man in a turban.

5tev3, I agree with what you are saying here completely. My point is that the republican platform does more closely align with correct gospel principles, whereas the dems official platform is further from those principles. You are correct when you say that the repubs have done all sorts of evil over the years. They have become a group of whited sephlucres havent they? As someone else said earlier, The difference between a dem and a repub is that the dem stabs you in the heart while the repub stabs you in the back.

[ready2prepare]

... if we have the doctrine, and it is clear,
and the people are not taught the doctrine, then
where are we told the blame will fall? Does Jacob
give us the answer, or does he not?

The people of the Church WERE taught
Constitutional principles from the pulpit
and in General Conference until the early
1990's, and what did the the membership
of the Church (in general) do with the
information?

In my minds ear I can still hear the collective
yawn...after all, this was America and the
economy was prospering. The Cold war was
over! All was well in Zion! Our elected officials
were happy to promise us an eternal gravy
train. The members of the Benson generation
happily hopped on board and the motion of
the train quickly lulled them to sleep.

So where does the blame fall? And what does
the Lord do as a result?

Maybe Isaiah gives us the answer:

• "For the LORD hath poured out upon you
  the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed
  your eyes: the prophets and your rulers,
  the seers hath he covered."
  Isaiah 29:10

Best Regards,
Sharon in Mississippi

[p51-mustang]

As he neared his resignation, Geroge Washington wrote a letter to the nation. He warned of the danger of political parties, and how they would turn the government from a group of people interested in their nation's future to a rabbling mob of power hungry professional politicians. In short, he opposed political parties.

"They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests."

The BOM speaks of various "ites" throughout. When the people were righteous they were called nephites and were united. When evil, all sorts of permutations of "ites" sprang up. This seems to be a lesson on the dangers of divisive factions or parties showing that these divisions are a reflection of the wickedness of the people in general.

[Wiikwajio]

Maybe Isaiah gives us the answer:

• "For the LORD hath poured out upon you
  the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed
  your eyes: the prophets and your rulers,
  the seers hath he covered."
  Isaiah 29:10

Best Regards,
Sharon in Mississippi[/size]

But personal revelation is wide open for all those that desire it. And the teachings of the prophets have not changed on this subject. We are to eschew false isms.

I was told how to do it. All I did was listen and act.

[oneClimbs]

5tev3, I agree with what you are saying here completely. My point is that the republican platform does more closely align with correct gospel principles, whereas the dems official platform is further from those principles. You are correct when you say that the repubs have done all sorts of evil over the years. They have become a group of whited sephlucres havent they? As someone else said earlier, The difference between a dem and a repub is that the dem stabs you in the heart while the repub stabs you in the back.

To me it's like saying that Hitler's ideas are closer to gospel principals than Satan because at least Hitler didn't want to kill everyone. He wanted to make civilization great, he wanted to eradicate disease and weakness from the human gene pool through eugenics.

It's like two fish looking at some bait, one with a real fly on a hook and one with a fake fly and the one fish saying to the other, "Well, at least there's real food on that other hook" BOTH are out to get you!

This is why I think it's dangerous to say that any of those parties align with gospel principles because they don't live by their principles, they are a front and deep down there is a Satanic motive to their simulated morality. They are scum and anyone aligning with them should never see a position of power in our country.

I think the quote you ended with is perfect: "The difference between a dem and a repub is that the dem stabs you in the heart while the repub stabs you in the back." Either way, you're still going to get stabbed...but at least the Republican will have a Bible in his back pocket when he does it to you.

[ithink]

Maybe Isaiah gives us the answer:

• "For the LORD hath poured out upon you
  the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed
  your eyes: the prophets and your rulers,
  the seers hath he covered."
  Isaiah 29:10

Best Regards,
Sharon in Mississippi[/size]

There's no maybe about it. Great are the words of Isaiah.

[Geeswell]

ok, thanks for the info. I'm beginning to understand. not that i ever thought one party was completely "gallant". I believe whole-heartedly that Satan has his hands in both puppets.

It's just hard to know what to do when the system is set up so I feel i can do nothing but choose between the "lesser". which i don't believe in doing...

[oneClimbs]

ok, thanks for the info. I'm beginning to understand. not that i ever thought one party was completely "gallant". I believe whole-heartedly that Satan has his hands in both puppets.

It's just hard to know what to do when the system is set up so I feel i can do nothing but choose between the "lesser". which i don't believe in doing...

All we can do is to do our duty (which entails religious and civil duties). The Whore will war with itself and fall into it's own pit. Our safety and strength is in the virtue of our lives and our willingness to live the gospel.

As for voting for the "lesser" consider these quotes:

Hyrum Smith
"We engage in the election the same as in any other principle: you are to vote for good men, and if you do not do this it is a sin: to vote for wicked men, it would be sin. Choose the good and refuse the evil. Men of false principles have preyed upon us like wolves upon helpless lambs. Damn the rod of tyranny; curse it. Let every man use his liberties according to the Constitution. Don’t fear man or devil; electioneer with all people, male and female, and exhort them to do the thing that is right." (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.15, p.323

Doctrine and Covenants 98:4-10
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

John Quincy Adams
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

Last election, my wife and I voted for Chuck Baldwin because he is a good Christian man and understood the evils we are facing. Nobody else had a similar stance. Did he have a chance to win? No, but I was not going to have blood on my hands because I chose to vote for a "lesser evil". We were not popular with our LDS family and friends for doing so because they were not voting for someone to win, they were voting AGAINST someone instead of FOR someone. For those who do this, congratulations, your brainwashing has been a success. Their motive is fear, not justice and truth. THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT PART OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM, THEY ARE INDEPENDENT GROUPS OF CITIZENS PUSHING SPECIFIC AGENDAS - AGENDAS THAT ARE EVIL AND CORRUPT. WAKE UP PEOPLE! YOU HAVE OTHER OPTIONS! THERE ARE MORE COLORS IN THE SPECTRUM BESIDES RED AND BLUE!

The Doctrine and Covenants says that whatsoever is LESS cometh of evil. Hyrum Smith stated that not voting for good men is a SIN. Your vote has no asterisk* by it; it's black and white, yes or no. When you vote for someone, you throw your children and life at their feet. You choose them to represent you. NEVER AGAIN vote for a wicked man or woman, evil is EVIL there is no such thing as a LESSER evil!

If you really want to contribute to changing things then STOP voting for parties. START voting for people who represent you.

We may very well vote alone at times - so be it.

[p51-mustang]

ok, thanks for the info. I'm beginning to understand. not that i ever thought one party was completely "gallant". I believe whole-heartedly that Satan has his hands in both puppets.

It's just hard to know what to do when the system is set up so I feel i can do nothing but choose between the "lesser". which i don't believe in doing...

All we can do is to do our duty (which entails religious and civil duties). The Whore will war with itself and fall into it's own pit. Our safety and strength is in the virtue of our lives and our willingness to live the gospel.

As for voting for the "lesser" consider these quotes:

Hyrum Smith
"We engage in the election the same as in any other principle: you are to vote for good men, and if you do not do this it is a sin: to vote for wicked men, it would be sin. Choose the good and refuse the evil. Men of false principles have preyed upon us like wolves upon helpless lambs. Damn the rod of tyranny; curse it. Let every man use his liberties according to the Constitution. Don’t fear man or devil; electioneer with all people, male and female, and exhort them to do the thing that is right." (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.15, p.323

Doctrine and Covenants 98:4-10
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

John Quincy Adams
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

Last election, my wife and I voted for Chuck Baldwin because he is a good Christian man and understood the evils we are facing. Nobody else had a similar stance. Did he have a chance to win? No, but I was not going to have blood on my hands because I chose to vote for a "lesser evil". We were not popular with our LDS family and friends for doing so because they were not voting for someone to win, they were voting AGAINST someone instead of FOR someone. For those who do this, congratulations, your brainwashing has been a success. Their motive is fear, not justice and truth. THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT PART OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM, THEY ARE INDEPENDENT GROUPS OF CITIZENS PUSHING SPECIFIC AGENDAS - AGENDAS THAT ARE EVIL AND CORRUPT. WAKE UP PEOPLE! YOU HAVE OTHER OPTIONS! THERE ARE MORE COLORS IN THE SPECTRUM BESIDES RED AND BLUE!

The Doctrine and Covenants says that whatsoever is LESS cometh of evil. Hyrum Smith stated that not voting for good men is a SIN. Your vote has no asterisk* by it; it's black and white, yes or no. When you vote for someone, you throw your children and life at their feet. You choose them to represent you. NEVER AGAIN vote for a wicked man or woman, evil is EVIL there is no such thing as a LESSER evil!

If you really want to contribute to changing things then STOP voting for parties. START voting for people who represent you.

We may very well vote alone at times - so be it.

Ditto on this!!!

[buffalo_girl]

When the people were righteous they were called nephites and were united.

4 Nephi
15 And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.
16 And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor ctumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.
18 And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings; yea, even they were blessed and prospered until an *hundred and ten years had passed away; and the first generation from Christ had passed away, and there was no contention in all the land.

Good discussion! We share a 'diversity' of opinion and arrive at a unity of purpose.

It's just hard to know what to do when the system is set up so I feel i can do nothing but choose between the "lesser". which i don't believe in doing...

More of us need to run for local office as Independents or Constitutionalists.

[JMarsigli]

Here we go again... ithink the false prophet blaming the church and the same irrational complaining.

Most are biased going into learning about the US constitution so most are just as biased coming out (if not more so). I'm sorry to inform some of you that the US constitution is not a paper granting anarchy. Original intent was somewhere between feudalism and state control. It was give and take, lean this way then that, suspicious of power and lack thereof, leery of money printing and inability to do so, afraid of armies and not having them too.

Diversity of opinion is good. There is more than one side to every discussion. It is healthy to disagree on policy. It is unhealthy to be disagreeable, and to act like a bunch of know it all children. The knee-jerk, reactionary know it alls are dividing and tearing this country apart. Policy in America is a giant balancing act and neither side has a monopoly on what is true or correct.

We automatically write off counsel now? What happened to the search part? Ooh, I forgot, you have it all figured out already...