LDS Freedom Forum

I've been hearing that opposition to amnesty and stoppping illegal immigration is immoral. Other than being a violation of law violating, in what other ways can support of amnesty and illegal immigration be considered immoral?

lundbaek wrote:I've been hearing that opposition to amnesty and stoppping illegal immigration is immoral. Other than being a violation of law violating, in what other ways can support of amnesty and illegal immigration be considered immoral?

Quit reading the Huffington Post Bro. Its hazardous to your health.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HzD3GPpCqI

Forcing citizens to pay for non-citizens unearned benefits (Schooling, medical, welfare, etc...) through burdensome compulsory taxation with the threat of fines or imprisonment for not doing so...is immoral and wrong.

Big and fancy words for...

Taking money from one person...to give it to someone who hasn't earned it is immoral and wrong.

Stephen wrote:Forcing citizens to pay for non-citizens unearned benefits (Schooling, medical, welfare, etc...) through burdensome compulsory taxation with the threat of fines or imprisonment for not doing so...is immoral and wrong.

Big and fancy words for...

Taking money from one person...to give it to someone who hasn't earned it is immoral and wrong.

How are you forced?

“Let me point this out now. Your income tax is 100 percent voluntary and your liquor tax is 100 percent enforced tax. Now the situation is as different as day and night. Consequently, your same rules just will not apply...” — Dwight E. Avis, Head of ATF, IRS—House Ways and Means Subcommittee Hearings—1953

“The real point of audits is to instill fear, not to extract revenue; the IRS aims at winning through intimidation and (thereby) getting maximum voluntary compliance.” — Paul Strassel, Former IRS Headquarters Agent “Wall St. Journal”, 1/28/80

“The IRS’s goal is to increase the rate at which taxpayers voluntarily pay their taxes from the current 82.3% to 90% by 2001.” — The Washington Post front page Dec. 2, 1993, IRS Hopes Change

“Each year American taxpayers voluntarily file their tax returns and make a special effort to pay the taxes they owe.” — Johnie M. Walters IRS Commissioner, 1971 Form 1040 Booklet

From Publication 21/1998 update: Do you have to file a tax return and pay taxes?

Answer from Pub. 21: The U. S. income tax system is built on the idea of “voluntary compliance.” This means that it is left to the taxpayer to keep the necessary records, file a return on time, pay any required taxes, and meet any other requirements of the tax law. The system is built on trust in the citizens to know their responsibilities and to do what needs to be done. Taxpayers voluntarily follow the steps the tax system lays out. Failure to do so can result in penalties.

Two aspects of the Federal Income Tax system—voluntary compliance with the law and self-assessment of tax - make it important for you to understand your rights and responsibilities as a taxpayer. ’Voluntary compliance’ places on the taxpayer the responsibility for filing an income tax return. You must decide whether the law requires you to file a return. If it does, you must file your return by the date it is due. — IRS Publication 21

“You are among the millions of Americans who comply with the tax law voluntarily.” — 1992 Form 1040 Tax Instruction Booklet

“Our tax system is based on individual self-assessment and voluntary compliance.” — Mortimer Caplin, IRS Commissioner, 1975 IRS IR Audit Manual

“The mission of the service is to encourage and achieve the highest possible degree of voluntary compliance.” — Donald C. Alexander, IRS Commissioner, Federal Register, March 1974

“The IRS’s primary task is to collect taxes under a voluntary compliance system.” — Jerome Kurtz IRS Commissioner, 1980 IR Annual Report

“We have a voluntary compliance system.” — Fred Goldberg, IRS Commissioner, Nightline with Ted Koppel, Apr.13, 1990

“Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint.” — United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

The immoral problem is not illegal immigration, it is that nearly all Americans & LDS vote for people who support or do nothing about forcing people to pay for education, welfare, unneeded taxes, etc, of other Americans, let alone illegals. If we did not support such politicians we would not have these problems with immigrants. If our politicians punished crime as they should, that also would be taken care of.

If we steal our neighbors food & then someone sneaks in our home & takes that food from us, we can't criticize them for taking it, especially if we left it out for the taking. We are the main problem here. We are just as bad as the illegals, for we illegally (against Constitution) steal things from our neighbors (money) & then get mad because illegals come & take it from us. How dare they illegally use our schools & welfare that we illegally set up & stole from others! Nothing is going to change until we repent & start living legally, by the Constitution, 1st.

This is a pic one of my friends sent me of a sign south of Interstate 8 in Arizona warning people to stay north of I-8 because of illegal immigrants.

Gotta love George Obama logic. Illegals fill jobs US citizens don't want -- well, except for teenagers needing work, people trying to stay off welfare and people who need extra work to pay the mortgage. Of course, Barack Bush don't hang out with THOSE sorts of Americans.

So Hector comes over and gets a job as a dishwasher at the 24 hour diner. Of course Hector is loney for his wife and three kids back home. They come up and they all get a little apartment. In a couple of years Maria has two more kids (instant American citizens!). The older children are in public school paid for by US taxpayers, they get their medical care and now that there are some US kids in teh family the family gets food stamps. The taxpayers get to foot the bill so the local diner can have Hector as a dishwasher -- and that is good for the American taxpayer and the economy. Makes perfect sense if you are one of the Bush/Obama twins.

Start and end here -

http://www.ldsfreemen.com/illegal-immig ... -prophecy/

pritchet1 wrote:Start and end here -

http://www.ldsfreemen.com/illegal-immig ... -prophecy/

So the heart of the issue for this brother is:

Illegal immigration is a contentious issue because it brings into conflict those with racial prejudices, constitutionalist loyalties, social justice and humanitarian activists, new world order proponents, liberals, progressives, conservatives, labor unions, you name it. One controversial set of headlines that emerged (and has since gone onto the back burner for the time being) is what was called the “NAFTA highway.” Congress approved funding for a free trade “corridor” to be built from Mexican container ports to an internal U.S. distribution hub. There would be an open border for trucks coming from these container ports to a the hub. Where was that hub to be built? In Jackson County, Missouri, not far from Independence. The hub would be sovereign Mexican territory–in Jackson County, Missouri. That should set some alarm bells off for latter-day saints. We already know where that Great Temple is to be built. Prophecy tells us who will build it and who will assist.

Illegal immigration will remain a hot-button issue for the foreseeable future. It assists those who wish to transform America and subvert it into a transnational federal government to keep the populace polarized and incapable of resisting their machinations. Meanwhile, in my opinion, in light of the Book of Mormon’s statements, anyone who invests their energies to confront and fight against illegal immigration misspends his energies. This is part of the Lord’s plan that will chasten the wicked Gentiles in America and ultimately establish Zion in Jackson County, Missouri. God himself has placed this problem among us to bring to pass his own purposes and fulfill covenants made to ancient and modern prophets. The descendants of Lehi were given the land by covenant. The rest of us are just tenants and squatters. Only those Gentiles who repent and accept the fullness of the restored gospel will find an ultimate solution to the problem of illegal immigration. That solution will be realized only when we are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God. (Ephesians 2:19)

Correct?

Anyway interesting article, I had not considered some of his points, thanks for sharing. Illegal immigration is not on my radar, I think there are bigger issues to address. My faith is in Lord. The Lord is able to take evil and use it for good and destory Satans plans. Either way I reject evil and I think there are evil intentions on both side of the illegal immigration issue. Satan is taking names and kicking butt on every side of this issue.

So according to that quote, we should just roll over and play dead and let the immigrant hordes have their way with us. To me, that smacks of treason. We have a duty to protect our country. And I don't believe for a minute that it has ever been the Lord's will that the United States be overrun by any group that would destroy it. As I read the applicable scriptures, the overrunning of the U.S. is a threat but not a promise.

The problem is protecting our nation from those that seek to do us harm, but doing it in a way that will not jeopardize freedom.

There are currently no proposals put forth by anyone in public office (state or national) that will actually address the issue. Every single proposal gives more power to government, and takes away the liberty of the people.

Yes, the Lord is letting our country be overrun by immigrants as fortold in prophecy because we the American people & nearly all LDS have not been righteous & have not supported the Constitution of this land. We have allowed ourselves to be deceived to instead vote for & support gadiantons who destroyed it. Thus, we have no one to blame for this problem but ourselves.

I don't remember if I posted this here somewhere or not, but I'll repeat it. One of our Arizona State legislators said that in talking with a former Area 70 about the letters from the First Presidency urging (commanding) members to register and vote in the elections, he suggested ( I assume jokingly) that the letters not be read, because most Mormon voters will vote in ignorance and just make things worse.

Face of Fear at the Border

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoRfn4i3 ... rn-1r-9-HM

No really!? Duh. Listen to the gasps like they are surprised or something.

lundbaek wrote:I've been hearing that opposition to amnesty and stoppping illegal immigration is immoral. Other than being a violation of law violating, in what other ways can support of amnesty and illegal immigration be considered immoral?

How could stopping "illegal" immigration be immoral? Are we supposed to be law-abiding citizens or is there a double standard here? Or is this just another case of good being called evil and evil being called good.

I want a fuzzy baseball cap!...

Blondenblueeyed asks a very pertinent question "How could stopping "illegal" immigration be immoral? Are we supposed to be law-abiding citizens or is there a double standard here? Or is this just another case of good being called evil and evil being called good." Note the following email I received a while back, which I think represents the opinions of many LDSs with whom I get into it with over illegal immigration. Note that the writer (an RM from Mexico) claims it is all Mexican and other Hispanic immigrants I am opposed to, which is wrong, but it's playing the race card.


"I think you are wrong in opposing immigration of Mexican people and other Hispanic people into the country. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints one of our first responsibilities is to share the gospel message with other people no matter where they live or come from. Many of these kind, wonderful people wanting to live here are ready to hear the gospel message and live their lives according to it. They have a much better chance to hear, ponder and understand the message here than in the terrible conditions in which they have been living. It is also easier for them to live righteous lives here than where many of them come from. Also, we should be willing to share as much as we can, even giving until it hurts, to improve the lives of these people. I admire leaders like Jeff Flake, Orrin Hatch, Chris Cannon and other Mormon government leaders who you criticize who risk their jobs to help the immigrants who want to live and work here. I know you and many of your friends disagree, but some of us believe sharing the gospel and whatever more we can share is more important than worrying about the laws that make it hard for these people to come unto Christ."

Why don't they stay in their own countries and make things better there? To me that is ALSO what the gospel is about.
Are we all just supposed to crowd under one tent (stake) and let the rest of the world fall apart?

blondenblueeyed wrote:Why don't they stay in their own countries and make things better there? To me that is ALSO what the gospel is about.
Are we all just supposed to crowd under one tent (stake) and let the rest of the world fall apart?

Because we prop up their dictators through foreign aid, making it virtually impossible to make any real change

nothing i am going to say is new to anyone, and it sounds harsh, but im simply looking at the facts.

I served in El Salvador, BTW, and I've listened to a mother grieve that she wants a better life for her children, so she was contemplating crossing over to the US. I asked her if leaving her children behind for years was worth it. she seemed to think so.

Those members of the church in those countries would not be the problem we are facing. they wouldn't be the illegals, or they wouldn't be the leeches and parasites that we deal with. I would imagine.

I live in Idaho. There are certain towns in Idaho that are FULL of illegals. and interestingly enough, guess who causes most of the crime? I love the people i served, and i always have a conflict in my heart when i see Latino people. on one hand i have an aversion because i see them getting scholarships and large grants at my college when i have to scrimp and go into debt and work graveyard shifts, and only sleep 4 or 5 hours a night, and i can't afford insurance or health care or even life insurance. but you are telling me that they should just have it for free?

where is my bone? (oops there is that nagging "sense of entitlement" showing through )

and on the other hand, I love to see people rise above what was "handed" to them in life, and get a break.

I'm for closing the boarders.

We are in a war, whether we realize it or not. The latter-day gadiantons intent on destroying the United States economically, industrially, culturally and socially are using, among other things, the mass immigration to help accomplish that. Innocent as most of the immigrants may be of criminal intent and actions, they are being used by our real enemies to help destroy the United States. People get hurt in war. Even nice people. It has happened in every war that I know of. I've known of non-combatants being used as shields and saw some of them in one war. I believe the suffering of the poor and afflicted in other countries as well as in our own could be relieved to some extent by charitable actions of individuals and organizations. But that is not what the LDGs want. They want to knock Americans down to the level of the poor and oppressed so that we will accept the NWO and be thankful for it. I believe that to permit the overrunning of America by illegal immigrants is national suicide. And I say that knowing that the First Presidency has at least once asked members of the Utah state legislature to exercise mercy toward the illegals already drawing benes that legal residents are not entitled to.

it is like the war on "terror". It is a false war, with false solutions all designed to give the government more power. If you do not support the war on terror, you "support the terrorists", if you don't support the big government REAL ID, E-Verify or the AZ immigration bill you support the Azatlan movement.

Both are illogical conclusions for the liberty minded that also understand the conspiracy.

Taking away liberty is never the answer to preserving it. We must end all welfare/govt school and foreign aid programs if we are to really do anything about the take over of the south west.

I certainly concurr that we must end all welfare/govt school and foreign aid programs. But I think we still need to oppose the influx of and the granting of voting rights to people who will vote to continue and even expand welfare.

lundbaek wrote:I certainly concurr that we must end all welfare/govt school and foreign aid programs. But I think we still need to oppose the influx of and the granting of voting rights to people who will vote to continue and even expand welfare.

How do you do that without destroying the freedom of others? is there no limit to government power to support ones personal issue of the day? "it is oppression if government is used against me in a way I don't want, but it is civilized society when government is used to enforce my favorite issue"