LDS Freedom Forum

The Sunday School lesson I taught today was "May the Lord be between thee and me" and talked about the covenant of friendship between Saul's son Jonathon and David. It really amazed me that Jonathon was so supportive of David, and we are told "He loved David as his own soul." Wow. It seems like Jonathon is really one of the unsung heroes of the bible.

I was thinking about forming such covenants of friendship. As I looked around our ward there are really only 3 or 4 families that I know well enough that I would feel good entering into such a covenant with. It struck me that maybe I spend too much time worrying about the political side of things (that I can in truth do a very limited amount about) and I (and we) should be working on developing relationships tot he point where we could form such a covenant with most if not all of our ward members. And that kind of friendship does not come from just cheap talk, this would involve really caring and getting involved to a very high degree in each others lives and truly bearing one anothers burdens.

I also think that inviting those that you felt this way about and actually making a SOLEMN SACRED covenant would be an incredible experience. Doing this and spreading this throughout the church and even to our non member friends would, I think, do so much to bind us together and strengthen un to face the storms that are coming.

I considered some of my posts on this board. While I sincerely believe in the things that I have said, I realize they were often not given in the spirit that I would if I were speaking to someone who I had sworn a covenant of friendship with. David and Jonathon disagreed on things, but they discussed things and worked out ways to determine which one of them was correct, and then they performed the experiment that they had agreed upon to determine which path was right. Ego needs to be cast aside as we work together for understanding of the truth. Seeking the truth should always be our goal, not proving that we are right. This is not to say that we can't or shouldn't jest with each other, but I hope we do it in such a way that it is clear that it is meant in humor.

There are going to be some people and some issues that we jsut won;t be able to agree on. And I think that both sides are entitled and in fact often duty bound to stand by their beliefs on certain issues. I guess that just boils down to what Brian started a thread on some time ago - attack the message, not the messenger. If someone comes trolling, it is best to ignore than even pointing out that they are being a troll.

Anyway, as with my ward, there are only a few of you that I would feel comforatable entering into a covenant of friendship with. Right now I consider that my problem, not yours, because I feel that at my current stage of development, I could only enter such a covenant with someone that I see eye to eye on just about everything. That is a weakness on my part, that I am not willing to be more tolerant of different viewpoints. I'll work on that. And I am sure most if not all of you can attest that none of us agrees with anyone else on everything. Hopefully we can all (especially me) humble ourselves to the point that we can be open to learning from each other and not be so bull headed in their POV. And there are none worse than me in that regard, so don't think I am pointing fingers because I am not. But I think it could be great if time goes on if we could actually enter such a covenant with each other, and still "love each other as our own soul" despite anything we might disagree on.

Just as a side note; I found it interesting that Saul, who still got to be king for his whole life, was the one overcome with jealousy and anger while Jonathon, the one in line to "inherit the throne" became best friends with David. Supposedly, Saul was trying to kill David for Jonathon's sake, but at one point he threw a javelin at Jonathon because he was so angry that he was not able to kill David. At one point, Saul was ready to destroy an entire city just because he believed David was trapped inside and he was willing to do that just to get David.

I hope that over time we can all enter into a covenant of friendship with each other. I don't think this should be done lightly, and we should hold them as sacred as we do any of our other covenants. Let me know your thoughts on this.

Interesting...

The original meaning of "friend" carried with it
the union of a blood covenant.

There is still this tradition among Native
Americans, but it seems to have completely
disappeared from American culture in general.

Best Regards,
Sharon in Mississippi

Excellent post O_i

The covenant of friendship and peace between David and Jonathan is particularly beautiful as a symbol of the relationship between Israel and the Messiah. Jonathan represents the chosen people, being the heir to the throne and David represents Christ, his descendant.

And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord, saying, The Lord be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever.

The name Jonathan means "gift of God" and the story of Jonathan is one of the best illustrations of friendship in the scriptures, in my opinion. What better gift is there, than to live by the words of the covenants we make and be a friend of God?

see section 88: 132-136 for modern revelation concerning friendship and brotherhood in bonds of love. Also section 78. your on the right path in my opinion. Dennis

Original_Intent wrote:The Sunday School lesson I taught today was "May the Lord be between thee and me" and talked about the covenant of friendship between Saul's son Jonathon and David. It really amazed me that Jonathon was so supportive of David, and we are told "He loved David as his own soul." Wow. It seems like Jonathon is really one of the unsung heroes of the bible.

I was thinking about forming such covenants of friendship. As I looked around our ward there are really only 3 or 4 families that I know well enough that I would feel good entering into such a covenant with. It struck me that maybe I spend too much time worrying about the political side of things (that I can in truth do a very limited amount about) and I (and we) should be working on developing relationships tot he point where we could form such a covenant with most if not all of our ward members. And that kind of friendship does not come from just cheap talk, this would involve really caring and getting involved to a very high degree in each others lives and truly bearing one anothers burdens.

I also think that inviting those that you felt this way about and actually making a SOLEMN SACRED covenant would be an incredible experience. Doing this and spreading this throughout the church and even to our non member friends would, I think, do so much to bind us together and strengthen un to face the storms that are coming.

I considered some of my posts on this board. While I sincerely believe in the things that I have said, I realize they were often not given in the spirit that I would if I were speaking to someone who I had sworn a covenant of friendship with. David and Jonathon disagreed on things, but they discussed things and worked out ways to determine which one of them was correct, and then they performed the experiment that they had agreed upon to determine which path was right. Ego needs to be cast aside as we work together for understanding of the truth. Seeking the truth should always be our goal, not proving that we are right. This is not to say that we can't or shouldn't jest with each other, but I hope we do it in such a way that it is clear that it is meant in humor.

There are going to be some people and some issues that we jsut won;t be able to agree on. And I think that both sides are entitled and in fact often duty bound to stand by their beliefs on certain issues. I guess that just boils down to what Brian started a thread on some time ago - attack the message, not the messenger. If someone comes trolling, it is best to ignore than even pointing out that they are being a troll.

Anyway, as with my ward, there are only a few of you that I would feel comforatable entering into a covenant of friendship with. Right now I consider that my problem, not yours, because I feel that at my current stage of development, I could only enter such a covenant with someone that I see eye to eye on just about everything. That is a weakness on my part, that I am not willing to be more tolerant of different viewpoints. I'll work on that. And I am sure most if not all of you can attest that none of us agrees with anyone else on everything. Hopefully we can all (especially me) humble ourselves to the point that we can be open to learning from each other and not be so bull headed in their POV. And there are none worse than me in that regard, so don't think I am pointing fingers because I am not. But I think it could be great if time goes on if we could actually enter such a covenant with each other, and still "love each other as our own soul" despite anything we might disagree on.

Just as a side note; I found it interesting that Saul, who still got to be king for his whole life, was the one overcome with jealousy and anger while Jonathon, the one in line to "inherit the throne" became best friends with David. Supposedly, Saul was trying to kill David for Jonathon's sake, but at one point he threw a javelin at Jonathon because he was so angry that he was not able to kill David. At one point, Saul was ready to destroy an entire city just because he believed David was trapped inside and he was willing to do that just to get David.

I hope that over time we can all enter into a covenant of friendship with each other. I don't think this should be done lightly, and we should hold them as sacred as we do any of our other covenants. Let me know your thoughts on this.

I like the gist of what your saying. I too am guilty of spending a lot of time study political issues and neglecting relationships with other ward members. I think that building better relations with the neighbors is a great idea. I have a question or a concern though about this idea of covenanting with them. During the sermon on the mount in matthew 5, Christ says:

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

So my question is, how do we reconcile this passage of scripture with Jonathan and David or your own idea? Am I missing something?

Rensai wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:The Sunday School lesson I taught today was "May the Lord be between thee and me" and talked about the covenant of friendship between Saul's son Jonathon and David. It really amazed me that Jonathon was so supportive of David, and we are told "He loved David as his own soul." Wow. It seems like Jonathon is really one of the unsung heroes of the bible.

I was thinking about forming such covenants of friendship. As I looked around our ward there are really only 3 or 4 families that I know well enough that I would feel good entering into such a covenant with. It struck me that maybe I spend too much time worrying about the political side of things (that I can in truth do a very limited amount about) and I (and we) should be working on developing relationships tot he point where we could form such a covenant with most if not all of our ward members. And that kind of friendship does not come from just cheap talk, this would involve really caring and getting involved to a very high degree in each others lives and truly bearing one anothers burdens.

I also think that inviting those that you felt this way about and actually making a SOLEMN SACRED covenant would be an incredible experience. Doing this and spreading this throughout the church and even to our non member friends would, I think, do so much to bind us together and strengthen un to face the storms that are coming.

I considered some of my posts on this board. While I sincerely believe in the things that I have said, I realize they were often not given in the spirit that I would if I were speaking to someone who I had sworn a covenant of friendship with. David and Jonathon disagreed on things, but they discussed things and worked out ways to determine which one of them was correct, and then they performed the experiment that they had agreed upon to determine which path was right. Ego needs to be cast aside as we work together for understanding of the truth. Seeking the truth should always be our goal, not proving that we are right. This is not to say that we can't or shouldn't jest with each other, but I hope we do it in such a way that it is clear that it is meant in humor.

There are going to be some people and some issues that we jsut won;t be able to agree on. And I think that both sides are entitled and in fact often duty bound to stand by their beliefs on certain issues. I guess that just boils down to what Brian started a thread on some time ago - attack the message, not the messenger. If someone comes trolling, it is best to ignore than even pointing out that they are being a troll.

Anyway, as with my ward, there are only a few of you that I would feel comforatable entering into a covenant of friendship with. Right now I consider that my problem, not yours, because I feel that at my current stage of development, I could only enter such a covenant with someone that I see eye to eye on just about everything. That is a weakness on my part, that I am not willing to be more tolerant of different viewpoints. I'll work on that. And I am sure most if not all of you can attest that none of us agrees with anyone else on everything. Hopefully we can all (especially me) humble ourselves to the point that we can be open to learning from each other and not be so bull headed in their POV. And there are none worse than me in that regard, so don't think I am pointing fingers because I am not. But I think it could be great if time goes on if we could actually enter such a covenant with each other, and still "love each other as our own soul" despite anything we might disagree on.

Just as a side note; I found it interesting that Saul, who still got to be king for his whole life, was the one overcome with jealousy and anger while Jonathon, the one in line to "inherit the throne" became best friends with David. Supposedly, Saul was trying to kill David for Jonathon's sake, but at one point he threw a javelin at Jonathon because he was so angry that he was not able to kill David. At one point, Saul was ready to destroy an entire city just because he believed David was trapped inside and he was willing to do that just to get David.

I hope that over time we can all enter into a covenant of friendship with each other. I don't think this should be done lightly, and we should hold them as sacred as we do any of our other covenants. Let me know your thoughts on this.

I like the gist of what your saying. I too am guilty of spending a lot of time study political issues and neglecting relationships with other ward members. I think that building better relations with the neighbors is a great idea. I have a question or a concern though about this idea of covenanting with them. During the sermon on the mount in matthew 5, Christ says:

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

So my question is, how do we reconcile this passage of scripture with Jonathan and David or your own idea? Am I missing something?

I believe the proper covenant would be something along the line of "May the Lord be between me and thee forever."
Obviously such a covenant would not mean anything like doing anything unrighteous, such as secret combinations do to help fellow members get into positions of power, or do anything else that would be unrighteous. It would not include supporting your friend in anything unrighteous, but to ALWA"YS support them in their righteous pursuits. Some good examples of what it does mean is - if you hear someone speaking evil about said person, you defend them as if it were yourself being spoken evil of. You agree together to pursue the truth when you have a disagreement. The covenant also includes the Lord in your friendship. Now all of this we should probably do without covenant, however, sometimes I think solemnizing an extremly close friendship by covenant would strengthen the friendship and be held more sacred.

Ritual does have a proper place, but the ritual itself should not become the focus, imo. Really the end goal is to love your neighbor as yourself. Sadly, most of us are not living righteously enough to truly live this commandment as we should. But I would consider this and truly "esteeming our friend as our own soul" is a step in that direction.

Or it could just be a silly idea with no merit. Maybe most people are far better than me and such a covenant is unnecessary, and they already live the principle without the need for a covenant.

I think the key is in the footnotes...

Forswear: GR break your oath, or perjure yourself.

In other words, don't make false promises or swear by things beyond your control. When you make an oath, let that covenant be before God and hold true to it at all cost. See Deut. 23:21

21 ¶ When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the Lord thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.

Any more to add? This is a great thread - please keep going.

Interesting thread...so far I'm enjoying reading the comments and hope everyone comments here. I guess I'm pretty fortunate, because as I contemplate all the members in my Ward, I can't think of anyone that I wouldn't pledge to love and help. If you think about some of the covenants we make in the temple, this might fall under "building the kingdom". It was the first thing I thought of....so maybe we have already covenanted regarding our brothers and sisters.

natasha wrote:Interesting thread...so far I'm enjoying reading the comments and hope everyone comments here. I guess I'm pretty fortunate, because as I contemplate all the members in my Ward, I can't think of anyone that I wouldn't pledge to love and help. If you think about some of the covenants we make in the temple, this might fall under "building the kingdom". It was the first thing I thought of....so maybe we have already covenanted regarding our brothers and sisters.

Technically the baptismal covenant includes a covenant of friendship and peace - taking upon ourselves the name of Christ means we bear each other's burden, strengthen the feeble knee and lift the hands that hang down, comfort those who mourn, etc. We also become one body in Christ (Romans 12:5) which means we rejoice together and we suffer together (1 Cor. 12).

Baptismal symbolism is gorgeous, maybe I'll start a thread about Jewish marriages and the rite of baptism... I've been very excited about that lately

Such a covenant would have to be made by an authorized priesthood holder holding the proper keys to be eternal. Friends once were able to be sealed together in the temple (as friends) but that privilege was taken from us because members were using it improperly. They were boasting about how many friends they had been sealed to. Or so the rumor goes.

I'm sure the privilege will be restored when Zion comes again.

roserum wrote:Such a covenant would have to be made by an authorized priesthood holder holding the proper keys to be eternal. Friends once were able to be sealed together in the temple (as friends) but that privilege was taken from us because members were using it improperly. They were boasting about how many friends they had been sealed to. Or so the rumor goes.

I'm sure the privilege will be restored when Zion comes again.

I disagree. David and Jonathon made the covenant between themselves and the Lord. They did not go running to Samuel for "proper priesthood authority". A covenant does not need to be supervised by priesthood authority, people enter into covenants all the time to move into certain neighborhoods.

"Ah" you may say,"but those are not SACRED covenants".

Well first, I don;t know about that. I would say any time you give your word to do or not do something, you had better hold that (your word) as sacred.

Second, I find the proposal that the priesthood must be present for something sacred to occur to be somewhat bizarre. That authority regarding who you want to enter into such a covenant with RESIDES IN EACH INDIVIDUAL, whether they hold the priesthood or not, whether they are members of the church or not. I am not talking about ordinance work here.

I honor and respect the priesthood, but I utterly reject this idea that a priesthood holder would need to preside over such a covenant. I mean, does a priesthood holder need to be present for the blessing of food? Or When my wife eats lunch at home alone each day, when she blesses her food is she just using my priesthood by extension, or is the food not blessed because there is not a priesthood holder there presiding?

I could go on and on. I think suggesting that such a covenant needs some kind of "overseeing" by a preisthood holder to be very uninspired.

roserum wrote:They were boasting about how many friends they had been sealed to.

Sounds like Facebook.

chicafoom wrote:

roserum wrote:They were boasting about how many friends they had been sealed to.

Sounds like Facebook.

Thanks. I truly needed that laugh!

Original_Intent wrote:

roserum wrote:Such a covenant would have to be made by an authorized priesthood holder holding the proper keys to be eternal. Friends once were able to be sealed together in the temple (as friends) but that privilege was taken from us because members were using it improperly. They were boasting about how many friends they had been sealed to. Or so the rumor goes.

I'm sure the privilege will be restored when Zion comes again.

I disagree. David and Jonathon made the covenant between themselves and the Lord. They did not go running to Samuel for "proper priesthood authority". A covenant does not need to be supervised by priesthood authority, people enter into covenants all the time to move into certain neighborhoods.

"Ah" you may say,"but those are not SACRED covenants".

Well first, I don;t know about that. I would say any time you give your word to do or not do something, you had better hold that (your word) as sacred.

Second, I find the proposal that the priesthood must be present for something sacred to occur to be somewhat bizarre. That authority regarding who you want to enter into such a covenant with RESIDES IN EACH INDIVIDUAL, whether they hold the priesthood or not, whether they are members of the church or not. I am not talking about ordinance work here.

I honor and respect the priesthood, but I utterly reject this idea that a priesthood holder would need to preside over such a covenant. I mean, does a priesthood holder need to be present for the blessing of food? Or When my wife eats lunch at home alone each day, when she blesses her food is she just using my priesthood by extension, or is the food not blessed because there is not a priesthood holder there presiding?

I could go on and on. I think suggesting that such a covenant needs some kind of "overseeing" by a preisthood holder to be very uninspired.

Of course, you are free to make whatever covenants you want with whomever you want, but if you want it to last for eternity, there's guidelines to follow.

Thanks for enlightening me that I will not have friends for eternity unless I have it approved by the proper priesthood authority.

Oh. Wait. If the LORD participates in the covenant then maybe, just MAYBE he will provide all of the authority needed.

I dunno though, we sheeple are pretty stupid - maybe we need the church, or better yet the government, to issue us "friendship licenses". That way they can oversee and make sure we don't make any inappropriate friends who might say unapproved things or think unprogrammed thoughts.

Yes, sounds like Utopia to me. Where do I sign up?

ready2prepare wrote:Interesting...

The original meaning of "friend" carried with it
the union of a blood covenant.

There is still this tradition among Native
Americans, but it seems to have completely
disappeared from American culture in general.

Best Regards,
Sharon in Mississippi

Goll-lee where's Darren when we need him?

Darren....where r u?????

OI is about to be utopia-ed under!!!

Original_Intent wrote:Thanks for enlightening me that I will not have friends for eternity unless I have it approved by the proper priesthood authority.

Oh. Wait. If the LORD participates in the covenant then maybe, just MAYBE he will provide all of the authority needed.

I dunno though, we sheeple are pretty stupid - maybe we need the church, or better yet the government, to issue us "friendship licenses". That way they can oversee and make sure we don't make any inappropriate friends who might say unapproved things or think unprogrammed thoughts.

Yes, sounds like Utopia to me. Where do I sign up?

I didn't mean to irritate you, OI. In fact I'm glad you started this topic and challenged my assumptions. It's really made me think about what it would mean to be an eternal friend. In today's world, where 'friends' are often an icon on a webpage, it would do us good to take a closer look at David and Jonathan's friendship.

While I think we'll probably have lots of friends in the sense that most of us perceive friendship in today's world, I still believe that we would need priesthood authority to forge an everlasting covenant like the one you're talking about. Think about it, if we need to be sealed by proper authority for even our eternal relationships with our spouses and our children, why wouldn't it be the same with friends? Not that a covenant made outside the proper authority would be wrong or ineffective, it just wouldn't have the power to endure death. From what I understand, that is the requirement to have our covenants sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, and only those things sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise can endure into eternity.

I'm sure, however, that since the option is not available to us at this time to make a covenant of friendship in the temple, the Lord would make it possible for that kind of covenant to be sealed later. Vicarious sealing for dead friends?