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Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 10th, 2010, 5:09 pm
by NoGreaterLove
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37617538/ns ... e-science/

"What the pictures reveal, Bell said, is spectacular: a dramatic landscape of rocky summits, deep river valleys, and liquid, not frozen, lakes, all hidden beneath the ice."

It is going to be really cool of we find out the 10 tribes have been living beneath the ice all this time!

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 10th, 2010, 5:55 pm
by bobhenstra
NoGreaterLove wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37617538/ns ... e-science/

"What the pictures reveal, Bell said, is spectacular: a dramatic landscape of rocky summits, deep river valleys, and liquid, not frozen, lakes, all hidden beneath the ice."

It is going to be really cool of we find out the 10 tribes have been living beneath the ice all this time!
Lost tribes North, Antarctica South----- :roll: Unless of course there's a pole reversal-- :lol:

Bob

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 10th, 2010, 7:02 pm
by Original_Intent
NoGreaterLove wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37617538/ns ... e-science/

"What the pictures reveal, Bell said, is spectacular: a dramatic landscape of rocky summits, deep river valleys, and liquid, not frozen, lakes, all hidden beneath the ice."

It is going to be really cool of we find out the 10 tribes have been living beneath the ice all this time!
Umm. I like you too much to comment, because anything I said in sincerity would be construed as ridicule.

And I am not. And I am sure if God wanted them under a mile of ice, He could find a way to keep them alive down there.

But in my opinion it would take constant divine intervention to maintain human life there.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 6:59 am
by NoGreaterLove
My thoughts are the ice would act as the source of rain and cause a greenhouse effect. The oxygen could come from other sources such as plants etc. A closed environmental study has already been done in Arizona so it is possible to have one. The ice may not lay directly on the ground, it may be more of shelter instead.
Hey it is a wild guess, but who knows. The ice may have more surprises than we think.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 7:41 am
by Original_Intent
NoGreaterLove wrote:My thoughts are the ice would act as the source of rain and cause a greenhouse effect. The oxygen could come from other sources such as plants etc. A closed environmental study has already been done in Arizona so it is possible to have one. The ice may not lay directly on the ground, it may be more of shelter instead.
Hey it is a wild guess, but who knows. The ice may have more surprises than we think.
Not saying it is impossible. And I am completely convinced of things today that 25 years ago I considered "crazy talk".
For the greenhouse effect, sunlight would need to get in. The mile thick "ice sheet" is not clear ice, if it was you could see all those mountains and streams etc. Even if the ice was only ten feet thick, anything underneath would be in almost ocmplete darkness, and close to a mile thick = pitch black. Now if there were volcanic activity, it has ben shown that there are things that can grow without sunlight and survive only based on the heat with no light. However, there is no evidence that I know of for the volcanic activity either. So I am thinking unlikely in the extreme.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 8:57 am
by InfoWarrior82
bobhenstra wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37617538/ns ... e-science/

"What the pictures reveal, Bell said, is spectacular: a dramatic landscape of rocky summits, deep river valleys, and liquid, not frozen, lakes, all hidden beneath the ice."

It is going to be really cool of we find out the 10 tribes have been living beneath the ice all this time!
Lost tribes North, Antarctica South----- :roll: Unless of course there's a pole reversal-- :lol:

Bob

That might not be so far fetched... scientists say there's a polar shift that happens in a thousand (or so) year cycle.
http://www.dailycommonsense.com/what-is ... ift-thing/

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 10:54 am
by shadow
Original_Intent wrote: Even if the ice was only ten feet thick, anything underneath would be in almost ocmplete darkness, and close to a mile thick = pitch black.
Unlesss someone with great faith prepared some rocks........ Maybe that just happens in the BOM 8)

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 12:10 pm
by Original_Intent
shadow wrote:
Original_Intent wrote: Even if the ice was only ten feet thick, anything underneath would be in almost ocmplete darkness, and close to a mile thick = pitch black.
Unlesss someone with great faith prepared some rocks........ Maybe that just happens in the BOM 8)
Lol, as I said, with God's help ANYTHING is possible.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 1:46 pm
by will
D&C 133: 26
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
I Am sure this is just a coincidence. (sarcasm)

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 3:08 pm
by sbsion
real "coooooooooooooooooooooool" :wink:

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 11th, 2010, 9:20 pm
by larsenb
InfoWarrior82 wrote: That might not be so far fetched... scientists say there's a polar shift that happens in a thousand (or so) year cycle.
http://www.dailycommonsense.com/what-is ... ift-thing/
Actually, the commonsense.com article is pretty good. But they aren't talking about a rotational pole shift, they are talking about a geomagnetic pole shift. These shifts are kind of erratic, but as the article says, the average age between shifts is about 300,000 years, with about 5,000 years for a given shift to be completed.

The last shift was about 740,000 years ago, with two shifts 'shortly' before that one occurring between a 50,000 year interval.

Not sure how these shifts would effect these hapless denizens under our North polar ice cap. But they would probably get more radiation than people in lower latitudes during the transition phase; unless the ice thickness makes up the difference.

We have had not a few nuclear subs make runs beneath the cap over the years, mainly during summer months I would surmise. The first was made by the Nautilus a few decades ago. You would think one of these subs would have run into this habitat or maybe detected it on their doplar sonar or bottom-looking radar, dontcha think??

A few years ago, there was a group out of Utah that were trying to lease a Russian icebreaker, soliciting cruise berths for those wanting to explore for the opening into this sub-icepack world. It was actually advertised, and a couple in my Ward who run a Travel Agency were listed as the brokers. I talked to them about it and we had a laugh; they being greatly amused by the whole thing. They never did get any takers. :o

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 13th, 2010, 11:57 am
by durangout
This is NOT a seriours thread is it???

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 13th, 2010, 12:41 pm
by NoGreaterLove
This is NOT a seriours thread is it???
So I guess you believe something else? Yes it is a serious thread. Maybe not for you. But when I posted it, I thought is was worth considering. We have no idea was lay beneath the ice, nor do we know what lay beneath the earths mantle.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 13th, 2010, 6:36 pm
by durangout
NoGreaterLove wrote:
This is NOT a seriours thread is it???
So I guess you believe something else? Yes it is a serious thread. Maybe not for you. But when I posted it, I thought is was worth considering. We have no idea was lay beneath the ice, nor do we know what lay beneath the earths mantle.
Perhaps but we do know that whatever is under there, it isn't the lost 10 Tribes.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 13th, 2010, 7:26 pm
by NoGreaterLove
it isn't the lost 10 Tribes
perhaps you would like to educate us a little on your understanding of this instead of making sarcastic comments?

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 13th, 2010, 8:23 pm
by durangout
NoGreaterLove wrote:
it isn't the lost 10 Tribes
perhaps you would like to educate us a little on your understanding of this instead of making sarcastic comments?
IMHO it is very easy to guess with a fairly high level of accuracy as to where the 10 Tribes are or at least a good number of their desendents. We all agree they were taken to the "north countries" so the questions becomes where / what are the "North Countires". Easy: They were taken captive into Babylonia and Assyria. Today those countries cover the areas of Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria. Their seed was mingled with the local populations and that is where their desendents are today.

Two things I find interesting about this topic is that the "terrorist" we are fighting are probably of these blood lines, and that the lost tribes' desendents are fighting the Tribes of Judah, Ephraim and Menassa. The thought come to mind: A house divided cannot stand. Sounds to me like part of Satan's plan or rather Satan hard at work.

In all sincerity it is astonishing to me that anyone would really think the Lost Tribes have been taken to another planet, the center of the earth or under the polar ice caps. The answer is much simpler and more logical.

Sorry about the sarcasm thing. It's genetic :)

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 12:58 pm
by KOMYU
Yes because the Lord works in logical ways. :wink:

Right.....?

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 1:27 pm
by durangout
KOMYU wrote:Yes because the Lord works in logical ways. :wink:

Right.....?
Yes of course He does. For example, if you keep His commandments, you are blessed. Very logical.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 2:23 pm
by KOMYU
There have been prophets that have stated that some of the tribes were taken from the earth on large chunks of earth.....so then now the question arises how is what nogreaterlove's post so illogical? Especially since you may not understand higher laws, quantum physics etc. Instead you dismiss something that could be completely logical when higher laws might be given/understood. Like looking into a stone and translating an ancient language or prophesying the future. Instead it's easier for you to dismiss because in reality you are afraid and don't understand.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 5:50 pm
by durangout
KOMYU wrote:There have been prophets that have stated that some of the tribes were taken from the earth on large chunks of earth.....so then now the question arises how is what nogreaterlove's post so illogical? Especially since you may not understand higher laws, quantum physics etc. Instead you dismiss something that could be completely logical when higher laws might be given/understood. Like looking into a stone and translating an ancient language or prophesying the future. Instead it's easier for you to dismiss because in reality you are afraid and don't understand.
You make a good point about me not understanding God's ways but to say that causes me to be afraid is silly. Prophests aren't perfect remember and they have gotten things wrong that is why not everything they write or say is considered scripture. For example the Adam-God Theory doctrine preached by Bro. Brigham was false doctrine. Period. It doesn't mean he wasn't a prophet it just means he got this wrong.

One "logical" reason I can think of why God wouldn't whisk them away to another planet or on a chunk of the earth is that they were a fallen people in apostacy at the time they were lost. This is primarily why they became the lost tribes. It was a punishment. When people have been saved away it was because they were a Zion people like the City of Enoch. No, they are here and will be converted at the Second Coming.

BTW, did you forget about the many patriarchial blessings stating lineage of those lost tribes?

The biggest reason I don't "buy it" is that I don't feel a whitness of this information. (I am ,of course, assuming I am worthy of such companionship).

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 9:24 pm
by Carlos
I know komyu, NGL, and others may scoff at this article by JFMcConkie, but it is "logical" and inspiring to me. Others may appreciate it also, so I post a portion of it.

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx ... scriptural

The author is Joseph Fielding McConkie
The Mingling of Scripture and Tradition

Along with those would-be doctrines that have no roots in the scriptures are those that have been grafted into the tree of life. It is important that we separate the wheat from the chaff. One cannot make good bread with chaff, and certainly not the bread of life. Authority is a difficult issue in this instance. To what extent, for instance, does our faith obligate us to reverence the writings of the early brethren, and in what instances are we to let go of something they said in order to improve upon it? Harold B. Lee responds in this manner:

It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they speak and write. Now you keep that in mind. I don't care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator--please note that one exception--you may immediately say, "Well, that is his own idea!" And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard works (I think that is why we call them "standard"--it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false; regardless of the position of the man who says it. [Harold B. Lee, "The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator," Address to Seminary and Institute of Religion Faculty, BYU, 8 July 1964. In like manner Joseph Fielding Smith said: It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine.

You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.)]

The matter is not easily resolved, but there is much that we can do to lessen the difficulties. First, as Joseph Smith suggested, we ought to allow that a good man can err in doctrine. [Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., B. H. Roberts, ed. (SLC: Deseret Book, 1949), Vol 5:340. Hereafter cited as HC.] Second, we should remember that it is the system of heaven to dispense its treasures line upon line, precept upon precept. This means that our generation ought to be able to improve upon the doctrinal understanding of previous generations; if we are continuing the journey they started, we ought to be a bit closer to the top of Mount Zion and our view ought to be a bit better. This also implies that we will find instances in which our greatest theologians will change and improve their views on various matters.

On a number of occasions during the preparation of lessons, I have studied a matter out and then gone to my father seeking the benefit of his insight and understanding, only to go into the classroom and have someone quote some statement or supposed statement by my father which refuted what he had just taught me. I am also aware of matters on which he contradicts himself within the books he wrote. When I have pointed these out to him and suggested that he might have one statement or the other changed for subsequent editions, his response was, "Goodness no! Let it stand." When he changed his mind on a matter he had no interest in covering the trail. He also had no difficulty in saying, "I was wrong." There is no reason to suppose that such attitudes were distinctive or peculiar to him and are not shared to a greater or lesser degree by all of our prominent theologians.

It reflects a rather acute case of spiritual anemia to argue that because someone once said something that was wrong, he is never to be trusted again. This affliction is common to those who seek to disqualify something one of our leaders has said which they don't want to accept. Supposedly they are excused from accepting the present counsel if they show some previous error or mistake in judgment on the leader's part. This can be likened to a man saying to his wife, "You burned the toast once, and I will never eat anything you cook again." At best, such an attitude would weaken the marriage and in some instances it could result in starvation. So it is in the realm of spiritual things: if we reject the inspired counsel of a leader because he once burned the toast, we have certainly weakened the bonds of our covenants and enhanced the possibility of spiritual starvation.

This very reasoning is the cornerstone of the fundamentalist argument for the necessity of an inerrant and infallible Bible: no errors can be acknowledged in the Bible or it will be deemed untrustworthy. In fact, a greater lesson is that as we can be inspired by a book that is not without flaws so we can be inspired by men who are less than perfect. Indeed, the whole system of salvation is that we, with our leaders, advance from grace to grace, from understanding to greater understanding, from seedlings to sequoias.

The sum of the matter is that if we are to avoid becoming as the scribes and Pharisees, we must do more than quote from the past. The scriptures, the spirit of revelation, and the words of our living prophet must act as our compass rather than Mormon legends and traditions, however popular. On the other hand, it is not our right to quote what others have said without assuming the responsibility to assure that what they have said accords with scripture. Often even that which others have said that accords with holy writ can be said better. If we can improve upon something I think the Lord expects us to do it.

Mormon Legends and Traditions About the Return of Israel


Prophecies, like fertile fields, produce good weeds, and none more so among Latter-day Saints than the field of prophecy dealing with the gathering of Israel and the leading of the ten tribes from the lands of the north. Theological dandelions and doctrinal thistles are thought by some to be the most beautiful of Zion's flowers. Consider the following:

The Star Theory. One of our all-time favorites is the idea that the ten tribes were taken away from this earth in a manner similar to that of the city of Enoch and that they now reside on another planet which is yet to return. Our primary source for this is Eliza R. Snow, who wrote it in the form of a lyric which appeared in the Church hymnal from 1856 to 1912. They key stanzas were as follows:

Thou, Earth, was once a glorious sphere Of noble magnitude, And didst with majesty appear Among the worlds of God.

But thy dimensions have been torn Asunder, piece by piece, And each dismember'd fragment borne Abroad to distant space.

When Enoch could no longer stay Amid corruption here, Part of thyself was borne away To form another sphere.

That portion where his city stood He gain'd by right approv'd; And nearer to the throne of God His planet upward moved.

And when the Lord saw fit to hide The "ten lost tribes" away, Thou, Earth, wast sever'd to provide The orb on which they stay.

And thus, from time to time, thy size Has been diminish'd still Thou seemest the law of sacrifice Created to fulfil.

It is argued that since Eliza was married to Joseph Smith [Eliza Roxey Snow (1804-87) was baptized in 1835 and was sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith on June 29, 1842.] she certainly got the doctrine from him. It is held that this is a doctrine that Joseph taught to his wives and his closest friends. [R. Clayton Brough, The Lost Tribes (Horizon Publishers, 1979), pg 47.] There is also a supporting statement attributed to the grandson of a man with whom the Prophet once stayed. In response to his grandfather's question as to where the ten tribes were, Joseph Smith reportedly took him outside and pointed to a star twenty feet (from their position) to the right and below the north star. [_Ibid., pg 47-48.] Eliza R. Snow also purportedly told his grandfather that she got her information on this matter from the Prophet. [Robert W. Smith, The Last Days (SLC: Pyramid Press, 1947), pg 225-27.] In addition, we are told by a son of Anson Call, a particular friend of the Prophet, that Joseph told him in company with others on a number of occasions that the ten tribes were on a portion of the earth that had been taken away. [Ibid., pg 215. See also Parley P. Pratt, Millennial Star, Vol. 1, pg 258 (Question 7), and Writings of Parley P. Pratt (Parker Pratt Robinson: SLC, 1952), pg 306-307.]

The Hollow Earth Theory. Another of our traditions holds that the ten tribes are hidden in a hollow of the earth somewhere. Sources include Benjamin F. Johnson, personal friend of Joseph Smith, who records the following conversation: "I asked where the nine and a half tribes of Israel were. 'Well,' said [Joseph Smith], 'you remember the old caldron or potash kettle you used to boil maple sap in for sugar, don't you?' I said yes. 'Well,' said he, 'they are in the north pole in a concave just like the shape of that kettle. And John the Revelator is with them, preparing them for their return.'" [Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review (Independence, MO: Zion's Printing and Publishing Co., n.d.), pg 93.]

Another published version of the hollow earth theory takes us to Mexico, where there is a large cave opening on the side of a cliff which David O. McKay is said to have said "led to the center of the earth, and that it was the access to the outer world for the ten tribes." The cliff is, of course, too high to scale from the bottom and is protected from the top by a large overhanging ledge. No one has ever been able to enter it. [Susan Peterson, "The Great and Dreadful Day: Mormon Folklore of the Apocalypse," Utah Historical Quarterly, Fall 1976, No. 1, pg 373.]

Knob on the Earth Theory. We learn from a son of Philo Dibble that Joseph Smith drew a picture for his father to show him where the ten tribes were. The picture consisted of a circle with a smaller circle on each side, something like a round face with round ears. The Prophet explained that one of these lobes (the one above the north pole) represented the orb upon which the ten tribes resided. Presumably the other lobe, beneath the south pole, was for the city of Enoch. It is also assumed that these smaller planets are connected to the earth by an invisible neck of land. [Matthew W. Dalton, A Key to This Earth (Willard, Utah: 1906; See also Walt Whipple, "A Discussion of the Many Theories Concerning the Whereabouts of the Lost Ten Tribes," BYU Library, unpublished typescript; and Brough, pg 51-55.]

The North Pole Theory. The argument in this instance is that the ten tribes live in a mysteriously camouflaged area somewhere near the North Pole. Among is strong advocates have been W. W. Phelps [W. W. Phelps, "A Letter to Oliver Cowdery," Messenger and Advocate 2:194 (October 1835).], who we are reminded acted as scribe at times for the Prophet Joseph, Orson Pratt, and George Reynolds. Elder Pratt expounded on the often-quoted text from 2 Esdras (an apocryphal work, which we must consider), which speaks of the ten tribes escaping from their Assyrian captors, crossing the Euphrates, and marching into the north to dwell in a land never before inhabited. He reconstructs the route they followed, giving distances and travel times, detailing little-known facts concerning the "comparatively pleasant" climate that would greet them and speaks of the grain and other vegetables they would raise. [Orson Pratt, "Where are the Ten Tribes of Israel?" Millennial Star 29:200-4.] George Reynolds, following Elder Pratt's lead, wrote of the feelings of awe these vagabonds of Israel must have experienced as they faced the icy waters of the Arctic Sea. [George Reynolds, "The Assyrian Captivity," Juvenile Instructor 18:26-29.]

At this point some observations ought be made about these theories: though rich in imagination, all are without scriptural support. With the possible exception of the North Pole theory, each claims what amounts to a private audience with Joseph Smith as its source. This same Joseph Smith once said: "I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private." [Joseph Fielding Smith, comp., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1961), pg 370.] Further, each theory is in conflict with the others. Thus we must conclude that Joseph Smith (1) freely speculated on the matter, (2) was terribly confused on the issue, or (3) that such methods of tracing statements to him are not reliable for the establishment of the doctrines of the kingdom.


Read the entire article from the link above. It brings clarity to the 10 tribes question by aligning scripture with what the church and the brethren are doing today to fulfill prophecy. Relying on 19th century speculations may be fun to fantasize, but it is a dead end road for understanding many prophecies of our new millennium.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 10:35 pm
by durangout
Carlos, thank you. Finally sanity brought to this thread.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 14th, 2010, 11:13 pm
by dewajack
I don't know where they are, but Eliza R. Snow seemed to think they were not on this earth. She said she got the idea from her husband, Joseph Smith. She even wrote a hymn that mentions it. It's not surprising it's no longer in our hymn book.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 15th, 2010, 6:01 am
by Carlos
dewajack wrote:I don't know where they are, but Eliza R. Snow seemed to think they were not on this earth. She said she got the idea from her husband, Joseph Smith. She even wrote a hymn that mentions it. It's not surprising it's no longer in our hymn book.
Read the article I posted. It addresses the hymn and other 'ideas'.

Re: Are they under the ice?

Posted: June 15th, 2010, 12:40 pm
by KOMYU
We can go around and around on the issue, but it doesn't really matter. Joseph McConkie is certainly entitled to his thoughts and opinions. I would never rob him or anyone of that. My point is one need not be so dead set in their mind that they are right and others are wrong. Joseph McConkie's own words state "Indeed, the whole system of salvation is that we, with our leaders, advance from grace to grace, from understanding to greater understanding, from seedlings to sequoias".

If one is to advance you may have to let go of the last rung on the ladder so to speak.

Thank you Carlos for the great read from Joseph McConkie and thank you Durangout for your perspective. I really do appreciate both as they help me to grow in my journey.