LDS Freedom Forum

Col. Flagg wrote:

Mark wrote:I am probable fighting a losing battle with you here Col. because you are already have formed solid opinions about the evils of the state of Israel as Roberts very clearly has as well. They are to blame for everything bad that happens. No blame goes to the real troublemakers in the region like Hamas or Hezbollah and terrorist nation states like Syria and Iran for all the middle eastern storms. Its always those Jews. They cause all the mischief and mayhem.

Mark, I think you may have misunderstood my position RE Israel... I am in no way, shape or form linking them as the main culprit in all the problems in the middle east, nor am I of the opinion that they're the trouble-makers. All I am trying to get others to understand is that Israel is just as much to blame for causing and creating trouble in the middle east and here in the U.S. as anyone else. I am fully aware of what Hamas/Hezbullah are, what their goals entail and the evils they engage in, but there has got to be a reason so many dislike and distrust Israel... what do you think that may be? Let me just say this... do you know how usury began?

leeuniverse wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:

Mark wrote:I am probable fighting a losing battle with you here Col. because you are already have formed solid opinions about the evils of the state of Israel as Roberts very clearly has as well. They are to blame for everything bad that happens. No blame goes to the real troublemakers in the region like Hamas or Hezbollah and terrorist nation states like Syria and Iran for all the middle eastern storms. Its always those Jews. They cause all the mischief and mayhem.

Mark, I think you may have misunderstood my position RE Israel... I am in no way, shape or form linking them as the main culprit in all the problems in the middle east, nor am I of the opinion that they're the trouble-makers. All I am trying to get others to understand is that Israel is just as much to blame for causing and creating trouble in the middle east and here in the U.S. as anyone else. I am fully aware of what Hamas/Hezbullah are, what their goals entail and the evils they engage in, but there has got to be a reason so many dislike and distrust Israel... what do you think that may be? Let me just say this... do you know how usury began?

And you misunderstand us..... What I've bolded and underlined is the problem.
Your "moral equivalency" is completely false. Further, you contradict yourself. You say the "aren't" the trouble-makers, but they you say they are "just as much to blame".

Maybe I should have said 'sole trouble-makers', that way, no one could take my comments out of context. Sheesh.

So, you are not only placing a moral equivalency upon Israel for simply defending itself and trying to maintain it's sovereignty, but you are also trying to have things both ways. Your thinking thus has some issues.

Hardly. Israel and its enemies are just as much to blame for the constant tit for tat in the middle east... how many times do I need to say this so it isn't misconstrued?

Chamish now believes that elements within Israel are trying to weaken and destroy Israel just as elements within the U.S. are destroying the U.S. economy, culture, society, and military. Chamish exposed a couple of political murders in Israel, most notably that of Rabin (not in the street, but in hospital) and is now in self-imposed exile, I think in the U.S.A. He thinks the NWO gang is unhappy with Israel's cooperation with their plans, and seeks to pound it into submission.

dconrad000 wrote:...as I see it...

The Secret Combination Is No Respector of Persons

The secret combination is and always has been no respector of persons. It welcomed Jaredites, Nephites and Lamanites -- and in our day it welcomes wicked people from all races, creeds and walks of life.

The secret combination is definitely running the affairs of this world -- has gained control of the world banking system; the US government, the CIA, the FBI, the British, Russian, Chinese governments; their respective CIA/FBI analogs; the Israeli Government and the Mossad, the UN, the European Union; and virtually all the governments and governing agencies of the world.

The Secret Combination and the wicked shall need to be cleansed from all the world -- including within America and Israel.

Israel murders people and then blames its victims. This appeals to American conservatives, who want the US to do the same.

It is likely that Americans will accept Israeli propagandist Mark Regev's story that Israelis were met by deadly fire when they tried to intercept an arms shipment to Palestinian terrorists from IHH, a radical Turkish Islamist organization hiding under the cover of humanitarian aid. This explanation is crafted to allow Americans to sink back into their stupor.

Americans will never hear from the US media that Turkey's prime minister Erdogan declared that the aid ships were carefully inspected before departure from Turkey and that there were no terrorists or arms aboard:

"I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

Turkey is a US ally, a member of NATO. Turkey's cooperation is important to American's plan for world hegemony. Turkey now realizes that the Israeli state is comprised of total evil. Erdogan must wonder about the morality of Israel's American protector. According to a report in Antiwar.com, the Turkish government declared that "future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks."

Will the CIA assassinate Erdogan or pay the Turkish military to overthrow him?

Murat Mercan, head of Turkey's foreign relations committee, said that Israel's claim that there were terrorists aboard the aid ships was Israel's way of covering up its crime. Mercan declared:

"Any allegation that the members of this ship is attached to al-Qaeda is a big lie because there are Israeli civilians, Israeli authorities, Israeli parliamentarians on board the ship."

Probe: Erdogan knew Gaza flotilla would be violent
Files found on activists' laptops pointed to strong ties between the Islamist IHH movement and Turkey's prime minister.
By Anshel Pfeffer Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Middle East peace Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew in advance that activists aboard a Gaza-bound aid flotilla planned to attack Israeli troops, Israeli intelligence officials have said.
Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010

Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010
Photo by: Reuters

In a report published this week, a group of independent investigators from Israel's intelligence community found that activists aboard the 'Mavi Marmara' were part of an organized group that was prepared for a violent conflict.

Last week Israeli commandos killed nine pro-Palestinian activists when they boarded the Turkish-owned boat, part of a six-ship convoy trying to break Israel's maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip

The report, published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (known in Israel by its Hebrew acronym Malam), said activists who attacked commandos with clubs and knives were supported by the Turkish government.

Malam is a privately run but is widely seen as an unofficial branch of Israel's intelligence community and has in the past been a medium for passing Israel's intelligence findings to the public.

The report said while most of the Mavi Marmara's 500 passengers were humanitarian volunteers who underwent security checks before boarding the ship at Antalya in Turkey, a group of 40 IHH activists had boarded the ship in an Istanbul port beforehand, keeping apart from the rest of the passengers throughout the journey.

This hard core of activists boarded the ship without checks and was equipped with communications equipment, flack jackets embroidered with Turkish flags, and gas masks, Malam said.

According to the report, the group turned the upper deck into its headquarters, blocking it off to other passengers. It had a clear internal hierarchy, with specific activists nominated as commanders.

Bülent Yıldırım, the leader of the IHH, an Islamic organization that planned the voyage, was on the Mavi Marmara and briefed group members about two hours before the Israeli Navy intercepted the ship. Their main objective was to hold back soldiers by any means, and to push them back into the sea.

As they had been banned from bringing wepaons aboard, IHH members improvised weapons including metal rods and knives cut from the ship's metal rails, which they used to attack the soldiers.

According to a witness aboard the ship, a confrontation broke out when the ship's crew heard IHH members sawing the railing into metal rods, but they were unable to confiscate them from them.

IHH activists also gathered all the knives from six cafeterias on the ship, as well as axes from fire extinguishers on the deck, all of which served as weapons against Israeli commandos .

Before the takeover, IHH ordered all other passengers into the hold of the ship and told them to remain there. Only journalists and security personnel were allowed access to the deck.

Video footage matched testimonies from passengers who claimed they witnessed any violence, as they were denied access to the deck, where the clash occurred.

The testimonies are also similar to the version given by the Navy commandos who said that they fought with a group of approximately 50 people who used every weapon available to attack them.

Eight of the nine dead were identified as IHH members.

Files found on laptops owned by the IHH members pointed at strong ties between the movement and Turkey's prime minister. Some of the activists even said that Erdogan was personally involved in the flotilla's preparations.

They also said that they knew in advance that their chances of making it into Gaza were slim, but their initial goal was to "to expose Israel's true face to the world."

An IHH journalist said during his investigation with Israeli security forces that "the Turks set a trap for you and you fell straight into it." He also said that the recent flotilla was the first in many.

Mark wrote:

Israel murders people and then blames its victims. This appeals to American conservatives, who want the US to do the same.

It is likely that Americans will accept Israeli propagandist Mark Regev's story that Israelis were met by deadly fire when they tried to intercept an arms shipment to Palestinian terrorists from IHH, a radical Turkish Islamist organization hiding under the cover of humanitarian aid. This explanation is crafted to allow Americans to sink back into their stupor.

Americans will never hear from the US media that Turkey's prime minister Erdogan declared that the aid ships were carefully inspected before departure from Turkey and that there were no terrorists or arms aboard:

"I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

Turkey is a US ally, a member of NATO. Turkey's cooperation is important to American's plan for world hegemony. Turkey now realizes that the Israeli state is comprised of total evil. Erdogan must wonder about the morality of Israel's American protector. According to a report in Antiwar.com, the Turkish government declared that "future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks."

Will the CIA assassinate Erdogan or pay the Turkish military to overthrow him?

Murat Mercan, head of Turkey's foreign relations committee, said that Israel's claim that there were terrorists aboard the aid ships was Israel's way of covering up its crime. Mercan declared:

"Any allegation that the members of this ship is attached to al-Qaeda is a big lie because there are Israeli civilians, Israeli authorities, Israeli parliamentarians on board the ship."

Ah yes Mr. Roberts. The great Satan and the little Satan strike again. You are not bias or slanted is the slightest are you. BTW Do you moonlight for Al Jazeera on weekends?

Probe: Erdogan knew Gaza flotilla would be violent
Files found on activists' laptops pointed to strong ties between the Islamist IHH movement and Turkey's prime minister.
By Anshel Pfeffer Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Middle East peace Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew in advance that activists aboard a Gaza-bound aid flotilla planned to attack Israeli troops, Israeli intelligence officials have said.
Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010

Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010
Photo by: Reuters

In a report published this week, a group of independent investigators from Israel's intelligence community found that activists aboard the 'Mavi Marmara' were part of an organized group that was prepared for a violent conflict.

Last week Israeli commandos killed nine pro-Palestinian activists when they boarded the Turkish-owned boat, part of a six-ship convoy trying to break Israel's maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip

The report, published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (known in Israel by its Hebrew acronym Malam), said activists who attacked commandos with clubs and knives were supported by the Turkish government.

Malam is a privately run but is widely seen as an unofficial branch of Israel's intelligence community and has in the past been a medium for passing Israel's intelligence findings to the public.

The report said while most of the Mavi Marmara's 500 passengers were humanitarian volunteers who underwent security checks before boarding the ship at Antalya in Turkey, a group of 40 IHH activists had boarded the ship in an Istanbul port beforehand, keeping apart from the rest of the passengers throughout the journey.

This hard core of activists boarded the ship without checks and was equipped with communications equipment, flack jackets embroidered with Turkish flags, and gas masks, Malam said.

According to the report, the group turned the upper deck into its headquarters, blocking it off to other passengers. It had a clear internal hierarchy, with specific activists nominated as commanders.

Bülent Yıldırım, the leader of the IHH, an Islamic organization that planned the voyage, was on the Mavi Marmara and briefed group members about two hours before the Israeli Navy intercepted the ship. Their main objective was to hold back soldiers by any means, and to push them back into the sea.

As they had been banned from bringing wepaons aboard, IHH members improvised weapons including metal rods and knives cut from the ship's metal rails, which they used to attack the soldiers.

According to a witness aboard the ship, a confrontation broke out when the ship's crew heard IHH members sawing the railing into metal rods, but they were unable to confiscate them from them.

IHH activists also gathered all the knives from six cafeterias on the ship, as well as axes from fire extinguishers on the deck, all of which served as weapons against Israeli commandos .

Before the takeover, IHH ordered all other passengers into the hold of the ship and told them to remain there. Only journalists and security personnel were allowed access to the deck.

Video footage matched testimonies from passengers who claimed they witnessed any violence, as they were denied access to the deck, where the clash occurred.

The testimonies are also similar to the version given by the Navy commandos who said that they fought with a group of approximately 50 people who used every weapon available to attack them.

Eight of the nine dead were identified as IHH members.

Files found on laptops owned by the IHH members pointed at strong ties between the movement and Turkey's prime minister. Some of the activists even said that Erdogan was personally involved in the flotilla's preparations.

They also said that they knew in advance that their chances of making it into Gaza were slim, but their initial goal was to "to expose Israel's true face to the world."

An IHH journalist said during his investigation with Israeli security forces that "the Turks set a trap for you and you fell straight into it." He also said that the recent flotilla was the first in many.

Col. Flagg wrote:

Mark wrote:

Israel murders people and then blames its victims. This appeals to American conservatives, who want the US to do the same.

It is likely that Americans will accept Israeli propagandist Mark Regev's story that Israelis were met by deadly fire when they tried to intercept an arms shipment to Palestinian terrorists from IHH, a radical Turkish Islamist organization hiding under the cover of humanitarian aid. This explanation is crafted to allow Americans to sink back into their stupor.

Americans will never hear from the US media that Turkey's prime minister Erdogan declared that the aid ships were carefully inspected before departure from Turkey and that there were no terrorists or arms aboard:

"I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

Turkey is a US ally, a member of NATO. Turkey's cooperation is important to American's plan for world hegemony. Turkey now realizes that the Israeli state is comprised of total evil. Erdogan must wonder about the morality of Israel's American protector. According to a report in Antiwar.com, the Turkish government declared that "future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks."

Will the CIA assassinate Erdogan or pay the Turkish military to overthrow him?

Murat Mercan, head of Turkey's foreign relations committee, said that Israel's claim that there were terrorists aboard the aid ships was Israel's way of covering up its crime. Mercan declared:

"Any allegation that the members of this ship is attached to al-Qaeda is a big lie because there are Israeli civilians, Israeli authorities, Israeli parliamentarians on board the ship."

Ah yes Mr. Roberts. The great Satan and the little Satan strike again. You are not bias or slanted is the slightest are you. BTW Do you moonlight for Al Jazeera on weekends?

Probe: Erdogan knew Gaza flotilla would be violent
Files found on activists' laptops pointed to strong ties between the Islamist IHH movement and Turkey's prime minister.
By Anshel Pfeffer Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Middle East peace Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew in advance that activists aboard a Gaza-bound aid flotilla planned to attack Israeli troops, Israeli intelligence officials have said.
Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010

Activists hold down an Israeli commando on the Gaza-bound ship Mavi Marmara, May 31 2010
Photo by: Reuters

In a report published this week, a group of independent investigators from Israel's intelligence community found that activists aboard the 'Mavi Marmara' were part of an organized group that was prepared for a violent conflict.

Last week Israeli commandos killed nine pro-Palestinian activists when they boarded the Turkish-owned boat, part of a six-ship convoy trying to break Israel's maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip

The report, published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (known in Israel by its Hebrew acronym Malam), said activists who attacked commandos with clubs and knives were supported by the Turkish government.

Malam is a privately run but is widely seen as an unofficial branch of Israel's intelligence community and has in the past been a medium for passing Israel's intelligence findings to the public.

The report said while most of the Mavi Marmara's 500 passengers were humanitarian volunteers who underwent security checks before boarding the ship at Antalya in Turkey, a group of 40 IHH activists had boarded the ship in an Istanbul port beforehand, keeping apart from the rest of the passengers throughout the journey.

This hard core of activists boarded the ship without checks and was equipped with communications equipment, flack jackets embroidered with Turkish flags, and gas masks, Malam said.

According to the report, the group turned the upper deck into its headquarters, blocking it off to other passengers. It had a clear internal hierarchy, with specific activists nominated as commanders.

Bülent Yıldırım, the leader of the IHH, an Islamic organization that planned the voyage, was on the Mavi Marmara and briefed group members about two hours before the Israeli Navy intercepted the ship. Their main objective was to hold back soldiers by any means, and to push them back into the sea.

As they had been banned from bringing wepaons aboard, IHH members improvised weapons including metal rods and knives cut from the ship's metal rails, which they used to attack the soldiers.

According to a witness aboard the ship, a confrontation broke out when the ship's crew heard IHH members sawing the railing into metal rods, but they were unable to confiscate them from them.

IHH activists also gathered all the knives from six cafeterias on the ship, as well as axes from fire extinguishers on the deck, all of which served as weapons against Israeli commandos .

Before the takeover, IHH ordered all other passengers into the hold of the ship and told them to remain there. Only journalists and security personnel were allowed access to the deck.

Video footage matched testimonies from passengers who claimed they witnessed any violence, as they were denied access to the deck, where the clash occurred.

The testimonies are also similar to the version given by the Navy commandos who said that they fought with a group of approximately 50 people who used every weapon available to attack them.

Eight of the nine dead were identified as IHH members.

Files found on laptops owned by the IHH members pointed at strong ties between the movement and Turkey's prime minister. Some of the activists even said that Erdogan was personally involved in the flotilla's preparations.

They also said that they knew in advance that their chances of making it into Gaza were slim, but their initial goal was to "to expose Israel's true face to the world."

An IHH journalist said during his investigation with Israeli security forces that "the Turks set a trap for you and you fell straight into it." He also said that the recent flotilla was the first in many.

Mark, let me ask you... do you believe that Hamas/Hizbullah and all of Israel's enemies are the problem and that Israel bares no responsibility for anything that has happened to it at the hands of its enemies? Also... are you familiar with the history of how usury began?

Mark wrote:However I will say that most of the provocation is coming from terrorist organization like Hamas and Hezbollah when it comes to Israeli affairs. I believe in the old saying that if Israel laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered but if Hamas and Hezbollah did the same there would be peace.

The Netanyahu government’s political strategy for grappling with the latest international crisis it has triggered has been rooted from its inception in the outlook that molds the Israeli psyche: whatever happens, Israel is always the victim.

Jason wrote:

Mark wrote:However I will say that most of the provocation is coming from terrorist organization like Hamas and Hezbollah when it comes to Israeli affairs. I believe in the old saying that if Israel laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered but if Hamas and Hezbollah did the same there would be peace.

That's a bold statement....one I definitely can't agree with. Of course it all depends on your definition of peace. If George Washington and crew had all thrown down their weapons....there would have been peace....for a time!

The Netanyahu government’s political strategy for grappling with the latest international crisis it has triggered has been rooted from its inception in the outlook that molds the Israeli psyche: whatever happens, Israel is always the victim.

http://warincontext.org/2010/06/10/isra ... lls-apart/

Mark wrote:

Jason wrote:

Mark wrote:However I will say that most of the provocation is coming from terrorist organization like Hamas and Hezbollah when it comes to Israeli affairs. I believe in the old saying that if Israel laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered but if Hamas and Hezbollah did the same there would be peace.

That's a bold statement....one I definitely can't agree with. Of course it all depends on your definition of peace. If George Washington and crew had all thrown down their weapons....there would have been peace....for a time!

The Netanyahu government’s political strategy for grappling with the latest international crisis it has triggered has been rooted from its inception in the outlook that molds the Israeli psyche: whatever happens, Israel is always the victim.

http://warincontext.org/2010/06/10/isra ... lls-apart/

Surely you are not comparing what the Hamas dirtbags have done with George Washington and Co are you Jason? What do you think has really changed since Arafat?

Arafat... now there's a real terrorist.

I say nothing. Hamas is a criminal organization centered on terrorism and murder.

True, but how are they different from the U.S. or Israel? The U.S. 'government' is most definitely a criminal organization and complicit in murder, as is Israel's government. IMHO, they're all in the same boat (evil-doers with evil intentions and ulterior motives).

Do you really think they are interested in peace with Israel? Not a chance.

This I agree with, however, if Hamas and Hezbullah laid down their weapons, do you really think Israel would celebrate and say 'hip hip hooray, lasting peace is here'? Nope... they'd try to take them out permanently so that they were never able to threaten Israel again. It's tit for tat over there and nothing but the Hatfields vs. McCoys... peace will never be possible... they've been fighting for eons and nothing is going to change that. Mark, you still haven't answered my question... do you know how usury began?

InfoWarrior82 wrote:Do we really think we will have anything to do with the "saving" of Israel? Israel needs to be cleansed of their wicked citizens and LDGs just like our country. One half of the city of Jerusalem will be captured, remember? Once again, I reiterate that we will not know of the invasion by muslim countries of Israel because our country will be mostly in anarchy except for places in the rocky mountains/New Jerusalem. Christ will ultimately step in and preserve the Jews. I kind of feel that this conversation of Israel is pointless. Is the U.S. complicit in evil, yes, is Israel, yes, are the Palestinians, yes (if we believe the BOM to be true when it says the Gadianton Robbers will take the sole control of the governments of the world).

Mark wrote:

Jason wrote:

Mark wrote:However I will say that most of the provocation is coming from terrorist organization like Hamas and Hezbollah when it comes to Israeli affairs. I believe in the old saying that if Israel laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered but if Hamas and Hezbollah did the same there would be peace.

That's a bold statement....one I definitely can't agree with. Of course it all depends on your definition of peace. If George Washington and crew had all thrown down their weapons....there would have been peace....for a time!

The Netanyahu government’s political strategy for grappling with the latest international crisis it has triggered has been rooted from its inception in the outlook that molds the Israeli psyche: whatever happens, Israel is always the victim.

http://warincontext.org/2010/06/10/isra ... lls-apart/

Surely you are not comparing what the Hamas dirtbags have done with George Washington and Co are you Jason? What do you think has really changed since Arafat? I say nothing. Hamas is a criminal organization centered on terrorism and murder. Do you really think they are interested in peace with Israel? Not a chance.