LDS Freedom Forum

Most scriptural references to fleeing either depict fleeing worldy things or fleeing to the promised land...i.e. we are there.

So...do I understand you to say you personally 'are in the promised land', and that is the one and only 'promised land'?

buffalo_girl wrote:

we needed to come here to Utah to be closer to the Church.

I'm not trying to be adversarial. I'm curious as to why some of you feel that 'to be closer to the Church' one needs to live in Utah?

I lived in Utah for 10 years. If anything, I felt more isolated from the Church. The way many Utah Mormons behave sometimes confuses what the Gospel of Jesus Christ has to do with the Church - speaking of the general membership of the Church NOT the General Authorities.

Not to be harsh, but I think your isolation probably speaks more to you than it does to Utah. I lived in Hawaii for several years, and when I first moved there I was constantly amazed at the people who would complain about being stuck on a rock, or too much sand, or no snow in the winters, or always being in the minority (white people). The funny thing is, it rubbed off on me and after about ten years of living there I too became sick of living there. Now, fifteen years later, I realize my discontent in Hawaii had much more to do with me than it did with Hawaii, and now I'd love to be able to go back.

I'm not sure what those of you who oppose the idea that a family might be prompted to leave - what you view as ZION - think those of us 'out here' are doing that's so wrong.

BG- I have nothing against a family "leaving"- as I said before, that's between you, your family and the Lord. Personally I would love nothing more than to "get out" to a rural area and farm, but I need to make sure that my decision is based on something other than fear.

As holyhabanero already said- most of the "bug out" folks are doing so because they have some survivalist fanatasy about "riding/fighting" it out. Trust me - I know I am one, and am very connected to that movement.

The reality is there aren't very many places left to "bug out" to in the world.....maybe parts of Alaska....without violating land ownership of one sort or another....of one government entity or another....

AND you have to be able to provide in the "bug out" spot for possibly an extended period of time.....no small feat!

Gone are the days of "wilderness" that isn't owned and controlled by governments.

buffalo_girl wrote:

Most scriptural references to fleeing either depict fleeing worldy things or fleeing to the promised land...i.e. we are there.

So...do I understand you to say you personally 'are in the promised land', and that is the one and only 'promised land'?

Now we really are arguing semantics.
I was apparently addressing the bug out issue again and was enticing to allow some to see that when fleeing has been ordered by the lord it was to bring them to the American continents or a call to flee from babylon (the world). In the Book written for our times, no where do you find one that is scripturally directed to us to flee from the body of the saints and fend for oneself. I can think of scripture where we are commanded to be one or we are not his. But anyone can take any scripture and apply a million translations to coorelate with personal desires or fears.
My spot here on the west bench of SLC is yes within the borders of the promised land. So yes I am personally located in the promised land. Is my brother in laws family down in southern Mexico personally located in the promised land? Well by BOM accounts yes they too are personally located in the promised land. North Dakots is also in the promised land. As far as one and only promised land, that is merely a coorelation to a persons understandings of the sacred writ. You define "one and only" to me and then we will see where we agree and disagree.

Mosby wrote:

I'm not sure what those of you who oppose the idea that a family might be prompted to leave - what you view as ZION - think those of us 'out here' are doing that's so wrong.

BG- I have nothing against a family "leaving"- as I said before, that's between you, your family and the Lord. Personally I would love nothing more than to "get out" to a rural area and farm, but I need to make sure that my decision is based on something other than fear.

As holyhabanero already said- most of the "bug out" folks are doing so because they have some survivalist fanatasy about "riding/fighting" it out. Trust me - I know I am one, and am very connected to that movement.

I respect Buff-girl and her family for moving to a "remote" place and building up the Kingdom of the Lord there, including temple work in Bismarrck.

And as Mosby notes, such a move needs to be based on something other than fear -- of course we agree. Decisions should be based on faith, love and personal revelation (for one's stewardships/or the word of the Prophets when it is time to leave, as the saints left Nauvoo. (Not all left, bTW).

Mark wrote:

"Mosby and Bob and I are not talking about the inspiration of moving from one city to another as every righteous Priesthood holder is entitled to. We are referring to leaving society completely and retreating to the wilderness for safety from all the ills of the world ala Jeremiah Johnson style. There is a big difference."

Most of us, I think, understand the context of a "bug-out" as being when The Sewage Hits The Fan = TSHTF, such as Martial Law in particular. I wonder if any of you (Mosby, Bob, Mark) believe that there are FEMA camps or equivalent established to house certain "dissidents" during martial law? And if you do, then perhaps can you understand that under THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, and out of love for one's family, it would be wise to have place(s) of refuge established for one's family? And with faith -- see the quote from Alma 48 below

Please answer my questions, Mark (and Mosby) as I answered yours. With that set of specific circumstances...

I should add the following from the Life of Jesus, from Elder Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." Since we're traveling now in Penna, I do not have access to the page number (perhaps someone could look it up) -- but DURING his ministry, just before his triumphant re-entry into Jerusalem (and the Crucifixion), Jesus went somewhere to hide from the civil leaders who sought his life. He "bugged out", if I may use that term.

As Elder Talmage noted, to this day we do not know where Jesus went into hiding during this time. Did not Jesus set for us an example?

Why does everyone have so much concern about what everyone else is doing, what everyone else is or isn't being told to do.

Mind your stewardship. Support each other. All of this pointing of fingers and proclaiming how much more righteous or enlightened we are in our view is getting tiresome.

I enjoy the different viewpoints, but again various parties getting overly self-righteous about their particular view is something I am really getting tired of. There is no need to put others down who are walking a different path than you. Ah yes, someone will quote "straight is the path and narrow is the way" or some such and try to interpret that to mean we all need to be on the same path.

Sorry, we need to be headed toward the same gate, but we are each in different starting places, and also each of our missions is different. If people would spend the energy fulfilling their own mission that they do in tearing down others, criticising because they are on a different path, etc. we would see the powers of heaven and shake the gates of hell.

And I guess by the above rant I am throwing stones while living in a glass house.

While we do follow the things The Prophet does tell us to do, we are unwise & slothful servants if we depend on & wait for him to tell us everything. It is only "The Spirit" that will tell us 'all' things that which we should do to protect & preserve our lives & our family & even our eternal life.

If the Prophet ever tells us to go someplace as a group, great, we get the easier way to follow, but we must be worthy & ready to be told by the Spirit to go someplace if needed also.

Those 'without the Spirit' to tell them 'all' things to do will be easily decieved by the Adversary & those who follow him, even if the person follows the Prophet. The Prophets don't tell us everything, half of the vital message about doctrine or direction always comes from the Spirit. We must all be Prophets & Prophetesses to our own families.

Pres. Benson talked about many who unwisely wait to be told by the Prophet & leaders of the Church to do vital things that need to be done to preserve their liberty & life & thus they can completely miss the boat & put their life & eternal life in jeoprordy while waiting for the easier way - just to be told like little children, rather than be willing & able to courageously following the Spirit they are worthy to receive & hear.

DrJones wrote:
Mark wrote:

"Mosby and Bob and I are not talking about the inspiration of moving from one city to another as every righteous Priesthood holder is entitled to. We are referring to leaving society completely and retreating to the wilderness for safety from all the ills of the world ala Jeremiah Johnson style. There is a big difference."

Most of us, I think, understand the context of a "bug-out" as being when The Sewage Hits The Fan = TSHTF, such as Martial Law in particular. I wonder if any of you (Mosby, Bob, Mark) believe that there are FEMA camps or equivalent established to house certain "dissidents" during martial law? And if you do, then perhaps can you understand that under THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, and out of love for one's family, it would be wise to have place(s) of refuge established for one's family? And with faith -- see the quote from Alma 48 below

Please answer my questions, Mark (and Mosby) as I answered yours. [Dr Jones]

I think your question is a fair one, but I don't think Mark or Mosby will answer. Bob might.

I've noticed that when you ask Mark a direct question like this about "martial law" in the USA or what might happen to dissidents during martial law, he clams up...
I may be wrong -- we'll see if Mark or Mosby will answer you as you answered them.

You define "one and only" to me and then we will see where we agree and disagree.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Preparation for the Second Coming, Elder Dalin H. Oaks, Ensign, May 2004

Another sign of the times is the gathering of the faithful (see D&C 133:4). In the early years of this last dispensation, a gathering to Zion involved various locations in the United States: to Kirtland, to Missouri, to Nauvoo, and to the tops of the mountains. Always these were gatherings to prospective temples.

With the creation of stakes and the construction of temples in most nations with sizeable populations of the faithful, the current commandment is not to gather to one place but to gather in stakes in our own homelands. There the faithful can enjoy the full blessings of eternity in a house of the Lord. There, in their own homelands, they can obey the Lord’s command to enlarge the borders of His people and strengthen her stakes (see D&C 101:21; D&C 133:9, 14).

In this way, the stakes of Zion are “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth” (D&C 115:6).

Mosiah 2
5 And it came to pass that when they came up to the temple, they pitched their tents round about, every man according to his family, consisting of his wife, and his sons, and his daughters, and their sons, and their daughters, from the eldest down to the youngest, every family being separate one from another.
6 And they pitched their tents round about the temple, every man having his tent with the door thereof towards the temple, that thereby they might remain in their tents and hear the words which king Benjamin should speak unto them;

farfromhome wrote:

DrJones wrote:
Mark wrote:

"Mosby and Bob and I are not talking about the inspiration of moving from one city to another as every righteous Priesthood holder is entitled to. We are referring to leaving society completely and retreating to the wilderness for safety from all the ills of the world ala Jeremiah Johnson style. There is a big difference."

Most of us, I think, understand the context of a "bug-out" as being when The Sewage Hits The Fan = TSHTF, such as Martial Law in particular. I wonder if any of you (Mosby, Bob, Mark) believe that there are FEMA camps or equivalent established to house certain "dissidents" during martial law? And if you do, then perhaps can you understand that under THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, and out of love for one's family, it would be wise to have place(s) of refuge established for one's family? And with faith -- see the quote from Alma 48 below

Please answer my questions, Mark (and Mosby) as I answered yours. [Dr Jones]

I think your question is a fair one, but I don't think Mark or Mosby will answer. Bob might.

I've noticed that when you ask Mark a direct question like this about "martial law" in the USA or what might happen to dissidents during martial law, he clams up...
I may be wrong -- we'll see if Mark or Mosby will answer you as you answered them.

I'm happy to answer any questions here. The only thing I fear farfromhome is cheese and mayo sandwiches. Even when faced with that prospect I don't clam up; I throw up.

Perhaps I can answer Docs question with a past observation. I remember back in the early 90's a group of constitutionally minded folks who closely followed Skousens works felt that the Clintons were going to put the finishing touches on the republic. They saw martial law right around the corner and decided to form a like minded community around the Duck Creek area in southern Utah. They wanted to set up a community that followed constitutional govt. regardless of what the Feds did to the country. Some sold their homes and moved south into mobile homes and trailers to be prepared for this SHTF scenerio. Well things didn't come apart as quickly as they thought and financial concerns and economic hardship caught up with many and they eventually gave up on the idea of establishing this alternative place of safety.

Now I am sure their intentions were good but they were driven mainly by fear of martial law and such and they made some decisions that created more problems than they solved by uprooting from jobs and lives to gather in out of the way places.

I believe Mosby said pretty well what I feel in response to escaping babylon. The Lord will direct his prophet if there are places of safety that need to be established for the Saints. Heck I know many of the Roger K Young people who have been waiting for the last few years for the semi's to come pick up their years supply of food and transport it to some girls camp in the mountains where they will go with their luxury tents and foam clothing to live in peace and safety while the rest of society comes apart at the seems. Some have probably already laid claims to their spots in certain girls camps that they have scouted out.

Now I don't mean to be a smart guy here but I see many people driven by fear of the govt and they at times make rash decisions based on those fears. There may come a time when the Lord wants his righteous Saints to separate from the rest of society. When that time comes I feel certain it will be directed by the Lords annointed servants thru proper Priesthood channels. Until that time I plan to continue laboring in this lone and dreary wilderness trying my best to assist in building the Kingdom and fulfilling my responsibilities to my Brethren who may struggle with the worlds wicked ways. I can't be a light to any of them if I hide in the dark.

Mark wrote:I'm happy to answer any questions here. The only thing I fear farfromhome is cheese and mayo sandwiches. Even when faced with that prospect I don't clam up; I throw up.

Perhaps I can answer Docs question with a past observation. I remember back in the early 90's a group of constitutionally minded folks who closely followed Skousens works felt that the Clintons were going to put the finishing touches on the republic. They saw martial law right around the corner and decided to form a like minded community around the Duck Creek area in southern Utah. They wanted to set up a community that followed constitutional govt. regardless of what the Feds did to the country. Some sold their homes and moved south into mobile homes and trailers to be prepared for this SHTF scenerio. Well things didn't come apart as quickly as they thought and financial concerns and economic hardship caught up with many and they eventually gave up on the idea of establishing this alternative place of safety.

Now I am sure their intentions were good but they were driven mainly by fear of martial law and such and they made some decisions that created more problems than they solved by uprooting from jobs and lives to gather in out of the way places.

I believe Mosby said pretty well what I feel in response to escaping babylon. The Lord will direct his prophet if there are places of safety that need to be established for the Saints. Heck I know many of the Roger K Young people who have been waiting for the last few years for the semi's to come pick up their years supply of food and transport it to some girls camp in the mountains where they will go with their luxury tents and foam clothing to live in peace and safety while the rest of society comes apart at the seems. Some have probably already laid claims to their spots in certain girls camps that they have scouted out.

Now I don't mean to be a smart guy here but I see many people driven by fear of the govt and they at times make rash decisions based on those fears. There may come a time when the Lord wants his righteous Saints to separate from the rest of society. When that time comes I feel certain it will be directed by the Lords annointed servants thru proper Priesthood channels. Until that time I plan to continue laboring in this lone and dreary wilderness trying my best to assist in building the Kingdom and fulfilling my responsibilities to my Brethren who may struggle with the worlds wicked ways. I can't be a light to any of them if I hide in the dark.

Amen Mark... I totally concur.

Col. Flagg wrote:

Mark wrote:I'm happy to answer any questions here. The only thing I fear farfromhome is cheese and mayo sandwiches. Even when faced with that prospect I don't clam up; I throw up.

Perhaps I can answer Docs question with a past observation. I remember back in the early 90's a group of constitutionally minded folks who closely followed Skousens works felt that the Clintons were going to put the finishing touches on the republic. They saw martial law right around the corner and decided to form a like minded community around the Duck Creek area in southern Utah. They wanted to set up a community that followed constitutional govt. regardless of what the Feds did to the country. Some sold their homes and moved south into mobile homes and trailers to be prepared for this SHTF scenerio. Well things didn't come apart as quickly as they thought and financial concerns and economic hardship caught up with many and they eventually gave up on the idea of establishing this alternative place of safety.

Now I am sure their intentions were good but they were driven mainly by fear of martial law and such and they made some decisions that created more problems than they solved by uprooting from jobs and lives to gather in out of the way places.

I believe Mosby said pretty well what I feel in response to escaping babylon. The Lord will direct his prophet if there are places of safety that need to be established for the Saints. Heck I know many of the Roger K Young people who have been waiting for the last few years for the semi's to come pick up their years supply of food and transport it to some girls camp in the mountains where they will go with their luxury tents and foam clothing to live in peace and safety while the rest of society comes apart at the seems. Some have probably already laid claims to their spots in certain girls camps that they have scouted out.

Now I don't mean to be a smart guy here but I see many people driven by fear of the govt and they at times make rash decisions based on those fears. There may come a time when the Lord wants his righteous Saints to separate from the rest of society. When that time comes I feel certain it will be directed by the Lords annointed servants thru proper Priesthood channels. Until that time I plan to continue laboring in this lone and dreary wilderness trying my best to assist in building the Kingdom and fulfilling my responsibilities to my Brethren who may struggle with the worlds wicked ways. I can't be a light to any of them if I hide in the dark.

Amen Mark... I totally concur.

I'm glad to see you are still able to type my friend. I figured Natasha might have spiked your cranberry juice sippy cup by now causing paralysis of the fingers and various other body parts. I'd hate to start calling you Col Litvinenko.

Mark wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:

Mark wrote:I'm happy to answer any questions here. The only thing I fear farfromhome is cheese and mayo sandwiches. Even when faced with that prospect I don't clam up; I throw up.

Perhaps I can answer Docs question with a past observation. I remember back in the early 90's a group of constitutionally minded folks who closely followed Skousens works felt that the Clintons were going to put the finishing touches on the republic. They saw martial law right around the corner and decided to form a like minded community around the Duck Creek area in southern Utah. They wanted to set up a community that followed constitutional govt. regardless of what the Feds did to the country. Some sold their homes and moved south into mobile homes and trailers to be prepared for this SHTF scenerio. Well things didn't come apart as quickly as they thought and financial concerns and economic hardship caught up with many and they eventually gave up on the idea of establishing this alternative place of safety.

Now I am sure their intentions were good but they were driven mainly by fear of martial law and such and they made some decisions that created more problems than they solved by uprooting from jobs and lives to gather in out of the way places.

I believe Mosby said pretty well what I feel in response to escaping babylon. The Lord will direct his prophet if there are places of safety that need to be established for the Saints. Heck I know many of the Roger K Young people who have been waiting for the last few years for the semi's to come pick up their years supply of food and transport it to some girls camp in the mountains where they will go with their luxury tents and foam clothing to live in peace and safety while the rest of society comes apart at the seems. Some have probably already laid claims to their spots in certain girls camps that they have scouted out.

Now I don't mean to be a smart guy here but I see many people driven by fear of the govt and they at times make rash decisions based on those fears. There may come a time when the Lord wants his righteous Saints to separate from the rest of society. When that time comes I feel certain it will be directed by the Lords annointed servants thru proper Priesthood channels. Until that time I plan to continue laboring in this lone and dreary wilderness trying my best to assist in building the Kingdom and fulfilling my responsibilities to my Brethren who may struggle with the worlds wicked ways. I can't be a light to any of them if I hide in the dark.

Amen Mark... I totally concur.

I'm glad to see you are still able to type my friend. I figured Natasha might have spiked your cranberry juice sippy cup by now causing paralysis of the fingers and various other body parts. I'd hate to start calling you Col Litvinenko.

I was thinking more along the lines of Krokov sending Morovich to do him in and bring back Natalia!

Seriously - I love the forum, I really do - lot's of great people here. But some of ya'll drive me c-r-a-z-y because you never read any prior posts!!!! ( you probably don't even know who you are - but those of us who follow the entire thread do )

Ok so point by point:

Most of us, I think, understand the context of a "bug-out" as being when The Sewage Hits The Fan = TSHTF, such as Martial Law in particular. I wonder if any of you (Mosby, Bob, Mark) believe that there are FEMA camps or equivalent established to house certain "dissidents" during martial law? And if you do, then perhaps can you understand that under THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, and out of love for one's family, it would be wise to have place(s) of refuge established for one's family? And with faith -- see the quote from Alma 48 below

Please answer my questions, Mark (and Mosby) as I answered yours. With that set of specific circumstances...

_________________
15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land… yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;
16 And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go… Alma 48

Doc- Yeah I've been on the "Fema camp, Martial law" - "one day they will come and throw me in the gulag" bandwagon for about 20 years now- just ask my wife, it drives her nuts. I got my conspiracy creds Dogg. 8)

Sorry to do this to you Doc- but please go back and read my earlier post- I covered the whole "using a scripture or two to bolster your argument thing", I really don't see the need to repeat myself again, and again because folks choose not to read my prior posts.

BTW Doc, you never answered my previous post and it's clear now that you never even read it.

Always happy to respond to any questions - but just ask that you read my posts so we can have an intelligent discussion.

Your answer: the situation you describe in Alma 48 really is not the same situation that we are currently in, Captain Moroni and the gang were engaging in total warfare and in imminent danger of being completely and totally destroyed. Is that the situation we are facing now?



Look, O.I had a great post a few back, I agree with him, I'm not really too worried about what Dr. Jones or anyone else is doing, I'm just giving you my observations on being in the "run for hills"/Patriots/ compound of like-minded folks community for the past 20 years. What I've seen is a lot of folks falling by the wayside and a lot of friendships ruined and a lot of fear.

Everyone is free to do as they wish, everyone is free ignore me, call me an idiot and move on - that's cool with me.

We all have to make our own way in the world-good luck to everyone- I hope we all get together in a "Celestial forum" some day and all have a big laugh about this, except Mark and I- we will be having a BBQ somewhere else

For clarification then, there is a difference between "bugging out" and "relocating". I think some may be writing about "relocating" and using the phrase, "bugging out". There is a big difference. I think that people may well be getting promptings to ... "relocate" to a better place then their current inhabitance. Years ago, my brother, "relocated" from the east coast to Utah to raise his family in an environment he felt more conducive to his values. Was that, bugging out? The point is, if a family is getting promptings to "relocate" to a different place, then the time to ... "bug out", is NOW. Relocate while the ability to do so in an organized, non-panic mode is available to us. So that one can prepare in their new location.

For those that are using the "bugging out" phrase to indicate some sort of ... in the dark of night, sneaking away, to some sort of safe environment after the "steel boot" of totalitarinism has fallen - I suggest they think things out, reason it out in one's mind.

The cases being offered in this thread, about how this or that, "bugged out", in support of the "bug out scenario" are not thinking things thoroughly through, IMO.

Others, challenging the "bug out scenario" have offered some serious factors to be considered.

If a family has created some sort of "bunker" in the "wilderness" (is there any wilderness left - really?), what happens if they cannot get to that bunker with all their life supporting essentials? Then what? Or are they going to be disciplined enough to not only adequately supply their bunker but also, their current home? What if they arrive at their "bunker" all to find it occupied by some "squatters"? Whose gonna kill who over the spoils? You ready for that possibility? You think so?

I say isloation is certainly not the answer.

Or maybe an extended family will "bug out" together? How big is this "extended family" to be, to reach a critical mass sufficient to logically sustain itself? All the skills necessary, to defend, to repair and maintain, etc. etc.

Really, it does not make sense to follow such a plan. It's not 1847. There is no true wilderness out there, sufficiently distant from the government's power. Think it through.

Think of the time we live in. Life in the 1840's was not all that different than how the Romans lived. But this generation has been blessed as none other - think of it. (I write only of the technological advances) But with those technological blessings, have also come technological cursings. One being, the ability to disappear, has been greatly reduced. And any "bug out scenario" demands the ability to, "disappear".

The sooner we all realize that we are in this together, (the better) we're gonna go through this (whatever "this" is) - together. There is no escape.

I believe this - that the strongest organization on earth today is the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. And when all nations are destroyed (just how - any number of plausible scenarios) the Lord's Church will seemingly rise from the ashes like a "Phoenix". It really won't "rise", rather simply everything else will fall apart. Maybe we will live to see it. Maybe not. Think of what we do in our wards & stakes. The Lord is training us for the part(s) we will play during such collapse. Hes' been doing so for decades. He's preparing us for the work that'll be necessary. So I "say", don't run away from it. He's relying on us to do our part(s). He did (and continues to do) His part. So lets get ready to "walk the walk" cause maybe, just maybe ... this time, is THE time ... not like 1941, nor 1962 (Cuban missle crisis) .....

Was I ask about FEMA camps? I have seen no evidence of FEMA camps, just talk and speculation.It is my understanding, that after the church is cleansed they'll be seven safe cities from Calgary Canada into Arizona. I'm in one of those cities, and I plan to stay here. At the moment, there is no wilderness, except the Intermountain West. The church was sent here for a reason.

All too often "I" have seen families uprooted because of the revelation received by the father of the family! In every case, the father was wrong! Remembering, those are "my" observations.

The Jacob family who move to Central America in 1964 to escape the nuclear bombs that we about to rain down on America. Except for Carl and his wife, who are long dead, the family now lives "back" in Utah.

The Intermountain West folks, is the wilderness! Here will be the protection! Here, we'll help one another through the coming trials, Here!

You want to live some other place? Fine with me!


Bob

(deleted -- no longer wishing to respond to mocking. Thanks for answering, Bob. Even though I see a danger in staying on the Wasatch front -- or the San Andreas fault zone -- unless one prepares a place to go to in case of earthquakes. But enough said.)

Well, it looks like I'm the 'cheese'. You know, like "the cheese stands alone...hi o, the dairyo".

Mosby, bobhenstra, & Mark have witnessed 'flighty' Mormon groups rushing into oblivion based on 'fear'. Perhaps Chip45 clarified this issue best.

Doing what we have done was pretty crazy, no doubt about that. We still are having a struggle trying to manage and maintain the essentials required in living 'remotely' 12 years after our flight from Babylon. It would be a struggle for a couple half our ages. But, neither of us is ready to move into a more convenient/comfortable life surrounded by other Mormons.

I also don't think any amount of fire power will keep anyone's food storage safe or keep the stormtroopers at bay.

Besides, our young adult son came quietly into our room at 5 this morning to tell us to look out the window. There, just outside the front gate was a wild tom turkey strutting his best while a demure lady turkey did her best to ignore him. The six bottle lambs stood looking on in horror - not ever having seen or heard so odd a creature.

The garden requires my attention.

buffalo_girl wrote:

You define "one and only" to me and then we will see where we agree and disagree.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Preparation for the Second Coming, Elder Dalin H. Oaks, Ensign, May 2004

Another sign of the times is the gathering of the faithful (see D&C 133:4). In the early years of this last dispensation, a gathering to Zion involved various locations in the United States: to Kirtland, to Missouri, to Nauvoo, and to the tops of the mountains. Always these were gatherings to prospective temples.

With the creation of stakes and the construction of temples in most nations with sizeable populations of the faithful, the current commandment is not to gather to one place but to gather in stakes in our own homelands. There the faithful can enjoy the full blessings of eternity in a house of the Lord. There, in their own homelands, they can obey the Lord’s command to enlarge the borders of His people and strengthen her stakes (see D&C 101:21; D&C 133:9, 14).

In this way, the stakes of Zion are “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth” (D&C 115:6).

Mosiah 2
5 And it came to pass that when they came up to the temple, they pitched their tents round about, every man according to his family, consisting of his wife, and his sons, and his daughters, and their sons, and their daughters, from the eldest down to the youngest, every family being separate one from another.
6 And they pitched their tents round about the temple, every man having his tent with the door thereof towards the temple, that thereby they might remain in their tents and hear the words which king Benjamin should speak unto them;

I enjoyed that talk. Elder Oaks is a great speaker and I love the way he puts things into simple terms. This is in reference to "Stand Ye in Holy Places". This does not contradict what we are saying. You are next to a temple and are exactly where the Lord wants you. I am near 3 temples and exactly where the Lord wants me. But if we are arguing the one and only promised land than no there is not one. Abraham was promised some land for an inheritance. That is not in the America's. So if we take a literal meaning from just the makeup of the phrase "promise land" than there is more than one. If we go off of the BOM which I am doing than the America's are the promised land. More specifically Jackson Missouri, the center of the promised land. This talk referenced preparation for the second coming. I am not the expert at all on the second coming yet I recall something where the righteouss will flee to the US for safety. A land of safety and promise

Loved the talk by Elder Oaks. I had remembered the subject matter but had forgotten who delivered it. Can't be much clearer than that for our day. I also remember being taught that the only places of safety would be the Stakes of Zion. I know on various threads on this forum I have read people bad mouth particular areas of this country and in particular Utah. I guess some have had bad experiences for whatever reasons. I for one, having grown up in an Air Force family, have never lived anywhere that I didn't like. Since joining the Church when I was 16, I have found good and faithful Saints wherever I have gone....and have learned much from their particular strengths. We moved to Utah in 2003 from Florida after both of my parents died. It has been a wonderful move and we love it here...and it's probably where we will live out the rest of our lives...trying to be aware of what our real needs are and the needs of others. I keep saying, concentrate on the four-fold mission of the Church wherever we/you are and there will be the safety we/you need.

DrJones wrote:(deleted -- no longer wishing to respond to mocking. Thanks for answering, Bob. Even though I see a danger in staying on the Wasatch front -- or the San Andreas fault zone -- unless one prepares a place to go to in case of earthquakes. But enough said.)

I hope you haven't taken my posts as mocking. I am just as excited about what may be as the next guy but chip put it best. Apparently this is about relocating to some and bugging out to others or better yet just having a second option out there,...somewhere type thing. All in all they play their part. That is based entirely on personal revelation from the Lord. I just have to wonder why of all the place did the Lord place the headquarters to his church on such a dangerous fault line? Why populate a dangerous earthquake prone fault line with the central points of the church management? Why invest and build multiple temples where He would destroy them? THese are all questions we could debate a hundred pages in but I trust the Lord. I see your side of it and we disagree on some stuff. But I respect your ability to hear the promptings of the spirit and react. My initial jump in on this was when the thought of following the spirit tickled dishonesty in the realestate purchase.

Henmasher wrote:

DrJones wrote:(deleted -- no longer wishing to respond to mocking. Thanks for answering, Bob. Even though I see a danger in staying on the Wasatch front -- or the San Andreas fault zone -- unless one prepares a place to go to in case of earthquakes. But enough said.)

I hope you haven't taken my posts as mocking. I am just as excited about what may be as the next guy but chip put it best. Apparently this is about relocating to some and bugging out to others or better yet just having a second option out there,...somewhere type thing. All in all they play their part. That is based entirely on personal revelation from the Lord. I just have to wonder why of all the place did the Lord place the headquarters to his church on such a dangerous fault line? Why populate a dangerous earthquake prone fault line with the central points of the church management? Why invest and build multiple temples where He would destroy them? THese are all questions we could debate a hundred pages in but I trust the Lord. I see your side of it and we disagree on some stuff. But I respect your ability to hear the promptings of the spirit and react. My initial jump in on this was when the thought of following the spirit tickled dishonesty in the realestate purchase.

I think I am the friendly neighborhood mocker here masher. My tent cities comment probable irked the Doc. I am sorry if I struck a cord Doc. I was only referencing those who have gone to extremes in preps to the point of completely stopping the planting of any cherry trees in order to spend all their effort and time on trying to get out of dodge. I have seen people in the last few decades lose balance and perspective over fear of things like martial law and govt gone wild. In doing so their families suffer when futures are put on hold. No planning for missions or education because everything is coming down so it really doesn't matter type of thinking. I have seen people give up any future plans and run for the hills to bunker down. Then when their dreams are shattered because things didn't happen as they dreamed they crawl back into civilization with a bitter taste in their mouths. I think balance is the key. As my friend Mosby has said don't be ruled by fear.