LDS Freedom Forum

Henmasher wrote: The scripture and comments posted were the result of a false church that was organized and than dissolved into something else. There are good people are not privy to the Gospel as we are and they will have an opportunity. My problem was with those that know the truth and attempt to skirt the slippery slope. You start an organization and call it a church....well than you have membership in that church, not the church of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its name.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its organizational structure.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its doctrine on polygamy.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints excommunicated several of its Apostles.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its position of giving Blacks the priesthood.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gives property and other assistance to OTHER religious organizations especially the Salvation Army and that religious organization does not believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture or that we have a living prophet.

So when you quote: 1 Ne. 14: 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

You have a small problem in any STRICT interpretation since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint works with the church of the devil under your interpretation and the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints told us to make the Constitution the political religion of the nation so it is either a part of the Church of the Lamb of God to make a political religion out of the Constitution OR we were commanded to make the church of the devil a part of our lives by living prophets.

The Boy Scouts of America are entwined with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is run by Catholics, Methodists etc. that believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an anti-Christ cult. If 1 Ne. 14: 10 is to be interpreted the way you have done then why is the Church of the Lamb of God working so closely with the church of the devil?

Three Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints prophets commanded it members to make the Constitution the political religion of his nation. Three of them.

They also commanded members to eschew Socialism/Marxism and other false isms AND STILL DO.

You looked up ONE definition of "political religion" that was a very negative definition of the phrase. It could easily be calculated as a direct attack upon political religions in general because it was so negative. I would like to remind you that I did not come up with the phrase. I quoted THREE LDS prophets that used that phrase. If you disapprove of the phrase "political religion" or think it is evil in ANY way I suggest you take it up with Presidents Grant, McKay and Benson.

President Grant also condemned Social Security as being in opposition to the teachings of Christ. Social Security is a key element in the New American Political Religion and an obvious part of American Socialism and American voluntary slavery and the Corner stone of the New American Civil Religion.

I started a political religion BECAUSE I was inspired to do so. Other LDS also helped me and were inspired to do so. My Patriarchal Blessing was confirmed in it meaning by the research I found building this political religion.

We are to fight against the New American Civil Religion.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

The way we are to fight that religion is not explained. It is up to the members to determine the best way to fight it using personal inspiration and the teachings of the prophets and the scriptures. I did. If you wish to condemn my work and inspiration then attempt to do so but point out the errors in that inspiration as the fruit is easy to read and fully ripe.
http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/

If I am in error and in opposition to the teachings and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then POINT OUT THE ERRORS.

Save the single lost sheep?

Wiikwajio wrote:

Henmasher wrote: The scripture and comments posted were the result of a false church that was organized and than dissolved into something else. There are good people are not privy to the Gospel as we are and they will have an opportunity. My problem was with those that know the truth and attempt to skirt the slippery slope. You start an organization and call it a church....well than you have membership in that church, not the church of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its name.
Under direction of God through a living prophet

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its organizational structure.
Under direction of God through a living prophet

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its doctrine on polygamy.
Under direction of God through a living prophet

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints excommunicated several of its Apostles.
According to rules directed by the Lord

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its position of giving Blacks the priesthood.
One more time, not by a yokal in hickville(maybe mark knows him ) but by direction through proper priesthood channels

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gives property and other assistance to OTHER religious organizations especially the Salvation Army and that religious organization does not believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture or that we have a living prophet.
All through direction by living prophets and through inspiration

So when you quote: 1 Ne. 14: 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

You have a small problem in any STRICT interpretation since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint works with the church of the devil under your interpretation and the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints told us to make the Constitution the political religion of the nation so it is either a part of the Church of the Lamb of God to make a political religion out of the Constitution OR we were commanded to make the church of the devil a part of our lives by living prophets.
I quote this in the sense that maybe you will realize that when you organize in opposiition to the church than you are involved with the whore of the world. Guilty by association, than you have removed the Godliness of all by association to OUR brother Lucifer

The Boy Scouts of America are entwined with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is run by Catholics, Methodists etc. that believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an anti-Christ cult. If 1 Ne. 14: 10 is to be interpreted the way you have done then why is the Church of the Lamb of God working so closely with the church of the devil?
Because by divine inspiration we are to love as we love ourselves. Oops your a Catholic, you suck, I hate you, I can't be by you? Is this how missionaries should introduce people to the restored Gospel???

Three Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints prophets commanded it members to make the Constitution the political religion of his nation. Three of them.

They also commanded members to eschew Socialism/Marxism and other false isms AND STILL DO.

You looked up ONE definition of "political religion" that was a very negative definition of the phrase. It could easily be calculated as a direct attack upon political religions in general because it was so negative. I found attributes to political religion and that is negative? Those that seek negativity will find it while those that seek the poistive will find it. Not a reprimand but a wake up wack to the side of the headI would like to remind you that I did not come up with the phrase. I quoted THREE LDS prophets that used that phrase. If you disapprove of the phrase "political religion" or think it is evil in ANY way I suggest you take it up with Presidents Grant, McKay and Benson.

President Grant also condemned Social Security as being in opposition to the teachings of Christ. Social Security is a key element in the New American Political Religion and an obvious part of American Socialism and American voluntary slavery and the Corner stone of the New American Civil Religion.

I started a political religion BECAUSE I was inspired to do so. Other LDS also helped me and were inspired to do so. My Patriarchal Blessing was confirmed in it meaning by the research I found building this political religion.

We are to fight against the New American Civil Religion.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

The way we are to fight that religion is not explained.

So now we find ourselves in a situation where, unlike the Pilgrims, the Mormon pioneers, and others, there is nowhere to go to escape a new civil de facto secular state religion that continually limits public religious expression and fosters instead the secular values and expressions. How do we preserve the essence of our humanity?

Surely we must begin in our homes. We must teach our children and grandchildren.

The moral teachings of all our churches must have an honored place in our society. The general decline in the moral fabric of the citizenry places a greater responsibility on homes and churches to teach values—morality, decency, respect for others, patriotism, and honoring and sustaining the law.

We can exercise our right, with all other citizens, to vote for men and women who reflect our own values. We can also express our views as all other citizens have a right to do in the legislative process of both the state and the nation. With all others, we can claim our rights of free expression. We can petition for the redress of grievances.

We must hold to our beliefs and do what we can, for there is no desert to flee to in order to have full freedom. There is no place across the waters for the Pilgrims.

It is up to the members to determine the best way to fight it using personal inspiration and the teachings of the prophets and the scriptures. I did. If you wish to condemn my work and inspiration then attempt to do so but point out the errors in that inspiration as the fruit is easy to read and fully ripe.
http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/

If I am in error and in opposition to the teachings and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then POINT OUT THE ERRORS.
I did and you apparently changed it prior to this debate, and now are in accordance with the correct attributes of such "Political Religion". Cmon you called it a church and had the big guys corrected you. Jeesh only the guilty would feel such a need to justify their actions
Save the single lost sheep?Admission or sarcasm?

Save em all 8)

I started a political religion BECAUSE I was inspired to do so. Other LDS also helped me and were inspired to do so. My Patriarchal Blessing was confirmed in it meaning by the research I found building this political religion.

You are a little late Wikk, Brigham Young taught that the "Kingdom of God" is a "political religion" - The Kingdom of God is the only political religion I want to be aligned with (brought to the earth by a prophet of God) - not some guy who thinks he is smarter than a line of prophets, and seeks to re-invent the wheel.

Let me know how your political religion works out for you, I hear that Bo Gritz has some open space on his property for folks who like to start their own religions, maybe you can be neighbors.

I hear that Bo Gritz has some open space on his property for folks who like to start their own religions, maybe you can be neighbors.

Mosby wrote:

I started a political religion BECAUSE I was inspired to do so. Other LDS also helped me and were inspired to do so. My Patriarchal Blessing was confirmed in it meaning by the research I found building this political religion.

You are a little late Wikk, Brigham Young taught that the "Kingdom of God" is a "political religion" - The Kingdom of God is the only political religion I want to be aligned with (brought to the earth by a prophet of God) - not some guy who thinks he is smarter than a line of prophets, and seeks to re-invent the wheel.

Let me know how your political religion works out for you, I hear that Bo Gritz has some open space on his property for folks who like to start their own religions, maybe you can be neighbors.

Would you provide a source of Brigham Young's statement?
I would have to say that when BY said what he did about the Kingdom of God his definition of "political religion" would not match this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_religion BTW--it's not pretty.

It's possible that I mis-quoted, B.Young I remember reading somewhere that he said the Kingdom of God was a political/government organization. It would take me a while to find the source. If I'm wrong - I apoligize,( I hate to post without sources-but I was in a hurry) my main point was that "starting a political religion" to "fight the devil" is pure foolishness- when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day- Saints already exists.

That concept seems to easy for some to grasp

DrJones wrote:Interesting commentary, Bob, thanks.

You noted:

Going up the Eureka slant there is a fenced area on the left that belongs to the Sunshine Mining company, it covers about five acres and was used to store mining equipment. Can't remember if there was any barbed wire on it at all, will check when I check the gas pumping station. Other than those three places, there are no fenced in areas West of Goshen that fit the description.

Yes, please let us know what you find about the direction of the barbed-wire. For an example of barbed-wire facing INWARDS, to re-iterate:

From Baldwin's article, searching a bit, I found this video:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

About the 1:20 mark, you see that the barbed wire points INWARD at this old train station in Indiana (if I recall the state correctly). This documentary is fairly well done IMO.

Sister Barrett reported that the barbed-wire at the top of the fence was pointing INWARD, evidently to keep people IN (not out). Did they do this at the pumping station you refer to? (If so, why?)
If not, this is not the area that the Sisters found near Goshen.

Bob, Mark, others -- what do you think of this documentary? http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

Thanks for the note about the strange statue at the Denver airport, GeeR. I think the murals inside are strange, too!

Ok, I drove out there. The fence around the gas compound has barbed wire and it points out. But its not 12 feet high, more like 6 to 8 feet high. The mining compound has a fence but no barbed wire on it, its full of rusty mining equipment. The skeet shooting place is gone, no more fence and everything has been removed.

The property South of Goshen belongs to the Morgan family, several thousand acres, most of the hills. The property East of the Morgans belongs to the polygamist community easily seen from the freeway on the West side of the road just South of Santaquin. The property North of the polygamist group belongs to my friend who I home teach. As I mentioned before, except for a dirt road, "all" the property West of Goshen is privately owned, belongs to the church, or is included among the many mining claims to, including, and and past Eureka.

There is a land fill several miles North of Elberta with a high chain link fence around it, garbage trucks are in and out of there all the time. There's some pretty cheap land for sale on the North side of the landfill,-- really cheap land---

Steve, I don't have any idea what/where the sisters are talking about. The whole area is privately owned, or mining claims. Even the property thats on the North going up the Eureka slant is privately owned. Thats where my son and his friend had trouble with the dog training crowd. The boys had permission to hunt, the dog training crowd were trespassing without permission, and attempted to kick the boys off the property claiming falsely they had leased the property, they picked on the wrong two boys!

I have seen no black helicopters, no fences that can't be explained and no government vehicles of any kind, except two neighbors, they are government hunters who protect the land owners and their flocks and herds from marauding animals. They drive green trucks.

It was my neighbor Luke who shot the bear that killed the kid in American Fork canyon several years back.

Perhaps the sisters can supply some more information.

Bob

Henmasher wrote:
Save the single lost sheep?Admission or sarcasm?

Save em all 8) [/quote]

Three LDS prophets told the members to make the Constitution the political religion of America. You reject their admonition. I did not. I obviously acted on it. Benson was also clear, and you seem to disagree with what he said in General Conference, but then picking and choosing and discounting commandments is a common practice when it comes to Mormons following the political teachings of the Brethren. That is, naturally, self-evident.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause."

"Not the Church." That means the prophet will not tell us what to do.

I have been one of "those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets and the Spirit of the Lord" my whole life. My fruit and my Patriarchal Blessing CLEARLY confirms this, as has my whole life. It has been done using "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD." So if you have ANY actual evidence that I have violated Church Doctrine in forming this political religion or the Doctrines of the Fellowship are in anyway in opposition to the Doctrines of the Gospel instead of innuendoes and false assumptions and misinterpretations of scriptures I challenge you to bring forth the evidence and stop the personal attacks me and my political religion that is in compliance with the commands of THREE LDS Prophets.

And I let you know what we have done so that when you and I face God you cannot claim I did not tell you and warn you. After all: Morm. 9: 35 And these things are written that we may rid our garments of the blood of our brethren, who have dwindled in unbelief.

Now whether or not it is you or I or both or neither that have dwindled in unbelief I will leave that up to the Lord but I do not fear to face God on these issues as He is the One that told me to do them.

DrJones wrote:

From Baldwin's article, searching a bit, I found this video:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

Honestly, I think a film crew could find many such places in many large cities and report on them as described.

The Intermountain West has been declared a place of safety by several prophets, I stay here. I'm prepared, my children are prepared, let whatever happens happen, I have no fear! Those who are not prepared have had plenty of time and warning, its their problem now!

Lets get it on!

Bob

Wiikwajio wrote:

Henmasher wrote:
Save the single lost sheep?Admission or sarcasm?

Save em all 8)

Three LDS prophets told the members to make the Constitution the political religion of America. You reject their admonition. I did not. I obviously acted on it. Benson was also clear, and you seem to disagree with what he said in General Conference, but then picking and choosing and discounting commandments is a common practice when it comes to Mormons following the political teachings of the Brethren. That is, naturally, self-evident.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause."

"Not the Church." That means the prophet will not tell us what to do.

I have been one of "those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets and the Spirit of the Lord" my whole life. My fruit and my Patriarchal Blessing CLEARLY confirms this, as has my whole life. It has been done using "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD." So if you have ANY actual evidence that I have violated Church Doctrine in forming this political religion or the Doctrines of the Fellowship are in anyway in opposition to the Doctrines of the Gospel instead of innuendoes and false assumptions and misinterpretations of scriptures I challenge you to bring forth the evidence and stop the personal attacks me and my political religion that is in compliance with the commands of THREE LDS Prophets.

And I let you know what we have done so that when you and I face God you cannot claim I did not tell you and warn you. After all: Morm. 9: 35 And these things are written that we may rid our garments of the blood of our brethren, who have dwindled in unbelief.

Now whether or not it is you or I or both or neither that have dwindled in unbelief I will leave that up to the Lord but I do not fear to face God on these issues as He is the One that told me to do them.

So tell me this since you appear to be choice above all others on this forum. Did the prophet say the literal Constitution would be saved? I mean since we should follow literaly which one of us, will it be you, that literaly runs to DC and grabs the constitution and saves it while its hangs from a thread? If we are to ever take every spoken word of the prophets literal and some not I would think a self proclaimed choice spirit would be able to answer this question. Here is something maybe that you should understand before you place oneself up as a light to others on a discussion forum.

“I do not believe that any man lives up to his ideals, but if we are striving, if we are working, if we are trying, to the best of our ability, to improve day by day, then we are in the line of our duty. If we are seeking to remedy our own defects, if we are so living that we can ask God for light, for knowledge, for intelligence, and above all, for his Spirit, that we may overcome our weaknesses, then, I can tell you, we are in the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. Then we need have no fear...no man is perfect but one who strives earnestly to conquer weaknesses and grow into perfection does not sin. That is to say, he is not a sinner. A sinner is one who indulges in sin habitually because he takes pleasure in it" (President Heber J. Grant).

That is a dead prophet that speaks to me and I can comprehend his meaning. I am not accusing anyone or never have of anything they have not indulged in themselves and then bragged or thrown out here on this forum. I call a spade a spade and have not called others anything than what they proclaimed themselves to be
Just some curious questions:
Who is the presiding Sovereign of this not church organization?
Why is there thirteen stripes representing the 13 tribes when a baptismal font of the church you are a member of has only 12 representing 12 tribes?
Last two, why do you require a "free will donation?

Members in good standing are required to contribute a designated minimum free will offering on at least a yearly basis.

Not entirely a smart remark but isn't income tax a required free will contribution due once a year on april 15th?

Maybe someone should simply contact FEMA and ask them. They have the US all divided up into "Regions"; there must be some kind of central plan for each. They exist on our dime, ask if they have specific 'relocation' facilities in the event of a national or regional emergency requiring relocation of the population.

http://www.fema.gov/about/contact/regions.shtm

Mosby wrote:

I started a political religion BECAUSE I was inspired to do so. Other LDS also helped me and were inspired to do so. My Patriarchal Blessing was confirmed in it meaning by the research I found building this political religion.

You are a little late Wikk, Brigham Young taught that the "Kingdom of God" is a "political religion" - The Kingdom of God is the only political religion I want to be aligned with (brought to the earth by a prophet of God) - not some guy who thinks he is smarter than a line of prophets, and seeks to re-invent the wheel.

Let me know how your political religion works out for you, I hear that Bo Gritz has some open space on his property for folks who like to start their own religions, maybe you can be neighbors.

When I use the would you, it means Mormons and or people in general; not a specific individual. So there are no personal attacks on anyone.

How is being a practicing American Socialist working out for you? I understand Obama loves all the work you do to assist HIS political religion? Are you enjoying the fruits of your Social Security Number like 42 USC Sec. 666(a)(13)(A)? Or how about being constantly tracked by government masters?

Naturally I am not making accusations about anyone personally. I'm Just asking questions. I know nothing about anyone here personally. Maybe you are not a practicing Socialist like most Mormons. I am just guessing.

And if Brigham Young was right about political religion why did THREE prophets AFTER Brigham Young tell us to make the Constitution the political religion of the nation? Which prophet was wrong? Or are the both right? That is what I believe; they are both right.

“Let it [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges. Let it be written in primers, in spelling books, and almanacs. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. In short, let it become the political religion of the nation.” Presidents Grant,McKay and Benson and Apostle Wirthlin just recently, 1995, repeated this admonition.

So I was not reinventing the wheel. Just doing what I was told to do by prophets that lived AFTER Brigham Young and during my lifetime. There was no change by the current living prophet concerning this command about making the Constitution a our political religion. Not like the Adam God theory by Brigham, anyway. Of course maybe ole' Brigham was talking about Adam being God the Father when he claimed that the "Kingdom of God" is a "political religion."

But the complaint against me are the same complaint I have heard many times before. But President Benson gave us the clear answers to those mocking from the great and spacious building of socialism.

"Usually the Lord gives us the overall objectives to be accomplished and some guidelines to follow, but he expects us work out most of the details and methods. The methods and procedures are usually developed through study and prayer and by living so that we can obtain and follow the prompting of the Spirit. Less spiritually advanced people, such as those in the days of Moses, had to be commanded in many things. Today those spiritually alert look at the objectives, check the guidelines laid down by the Lord and his prophets, and then prayerfully act - without having to be commanded "in all things." This attitude prepares men for godhood." Benson in General Conference

I am sorry that so many people on this forum are angry that I am spiritually alert, look at the objectives, check the guidelines laid down by the Lord and his prophets, and then prayerfully act - without having to be commanded "in all things. But facts are facts.

"Let it BECOME"...? What does "let it become," mean? Does it mean it is already here or already formed? Can there be more than one political religion that is righteous? There are many EVIL political religions? Does God only use ONE weapon when He calls His children to fight back against this multi-headed evil church of Satan? Why did the Church fully support the RFRA? There were MANY churches formed by Christ AFTER HIs death all over the world, not just one.

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

After all the prophets were talking ONLY about United States of America citizens to make the Consitution the politcal religion OF THIS NATION. That would not apply to LDS in other nations. Did you miss that technicality? Or did you just hop on board the Attack everything that is not spoon fed to you by the church attitude?

Know ye not that there are more nations than one?

Are you claiming that God cannot establish different political religions for more "nations than one" to fight a specific evil? Why? Do we not have many different individual gifts? Why would anyone try to limit God?

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall cwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

Do you have ALL those books yet?

And my political religion is doing great, thank you very much. We have been around, this time, since 1997 AD. I am not excommunicated or disfellowshiped from the Church of the Lamb of God even though the information in our Book went up to the Apostles. And I was not even effectively fired by BYU for my beliefs and research like others were (proving that the members and even some leaders are often blind to the truth). I am currently too ill to attend YOUR church but that will change as I get well. The political religion we formed has been helping people fight the IRS and WIN for years now. It has also be very useful on other political and legal issues to fight back against the political religions of Marxism and Fascism, of which, most Mormons are card carrying tithing paying offering giving members. Our Fellowship has been reviewed and even used by Lawyers around the Country and it is a POWERFUL weapon against Socialism. And unlike Bo I have not tried to commit suicide and am still a member of the Church of the Lamb of God.

Are you still filing and paying the Voluntary Marxist American slave tax? Are you still walking around with a SSN VOLUNTARY slave card tied to everything you do or have you followed the teachings of the prophets and ACTUALLY eschewed Socialism? I eschewed Socialism long ago but then people have different gifts and strengths so I certainly will not hold you to my high standards. Only a few "spiritually alert" individuals can do what I have done. Other "Less spiritually advanced people" have to wait to be commanded in those things. I cannot expect most Mormons to do what I do. God has obviously not given the "Less spiritually advanced people" the same gifts He gave me. After I I am not required to file Income tax Returns and don't have a Social Security Number. Gift of God is how I accomplished that.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more cexcellent way.So I repeat: How is being a practicing Socialist working out for you?

Gift of government? What gift is that? Do you want me to explain it to you?

I covet the best gifts. Do you? I always felt liberty was a gift of God that most people reject because they do not want liberty; they want kind masters. Much like people that reject personal revelation and wait for the Prophet to tell them how to change their own diaper while they sit in excrement, too timid and lacking of faith to do anything on their own to free themselves from the very situation they created.

After all "Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear.

I will not apologize for being prepared unlike the "Less spiritually advanced people." I don't have to bear that indictment like so many practicing card carrying "Less spiritually advanced people" that are Socialist claiming to be Christians.

Naturally the "choice spirits," the ones that are "spiritually alert" that did not "sit on the sidelines... appeasing the enemy" like the "Less spiritually advanced people" and so they would be given more knowledge on how to free themselves from socialism, as I have done, because the "choice spirits" that do not need to be commanded by the prophet are more prepared for liberty and "godhood" than the "Less spiritually advanced people" Benson warned us about in 1965 AD; when I was 10 and collecting signatures to start the Independent American Party of Nevada like Joseph Smith prophesied would come into being.

"And if you wait until everybody agrees in this Church, you will be waiting through the second coming of the Lord." Ezra Taft Benson in General Conference.

I didn't wait. Did you? Or are you one of the "Less spiritually advanced people" waiting for specific instructions? Maybe these will help: http://www.babycenter.com/0_diapering-y ... ns_3833.bc

They are not from the Prophet but it is excellent information on how to get started eschewing the results of voluntary slavery that "Less spiritually advanced people" are plagued by in these latter-days.

Of course there are no intentional attacks or statements here, by me, about any individual. I was just talking in generalities about "Less spiritually advanced people" and "choice spirits," the ones that are "spiritually alert" that President Benson talked about. If it personally insults you perhaps you should take that into consideration. I did and decided I needed to be more Spiritually alert and more active and eschew Socialism to even a greater extent about 16 years ago. Worked out great for me.

Your mileage my vary depending upon if you are one of those "Less spiritually advanced people" or one of the "choice spirits," or the ones that are "spiritually alert."

Don't you just love the talk, "Not Commanded in All Things?" It answers so many questions on political involvement and issues and how they tie to our advancement toward godhood and how we cannot obtain it if we are not involved.

I wish you the best in your endeavors to promote the cause of Freedom and Liberty.

Mosby wrote:It's possible that I mis-quoted, B.Young I remember reading somewhere that he said the Kingdom of God was a political/government organization. It would take me a while to find the source. If I'm wrong - I apoligize,( I hate to post without sources-but I was in a hurry) my main point was that "starting a political religion" to "fight the devil" is pure foolishness- when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day- Saints already exists.

That concept seems to easy for some to grasp

Whatever you find will help. Thanks

buffalo_girl wrote:Maybe someone should simply contact FEMA and ask them. They have the US all divided up into "Regions"; there must be some kind of central plan for each. They exist on our dime, ask if they have specific 'relocation' facilities in the event of a national or regional emergency requiring relocation of the population.

http://www.fema.gov/about/contact/regions.shtm

Actually FEMA was created by Oliver North and funded by drug money from the CIA as Congress refused to fund it!

“Let it [the Constitution] Become the Political Religion of the Nation”

Abraham Lincoln was a young practicing lawyer in Springfield, Illinois, when he delivered a speech to the Young Men’s Lyceum entitled “The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions”. He had already noticed trends in our American culture, which, if gone unchecked, would result in national suicide and a complete loss of liberty. He asked the question, “How shall we fortify against it?”, to which he replied in part:

“The answer is simple. Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others. As the patriots of seventy-six did to the support of the Declaration of Independence, so to the support of the Constitution and Laws, let every American pledge his life, his property, and his sacred honor;—let every man remember that to violate the law, is to trample on the blood of his father, and to tear the character of his own, and his children’s liberty. Let reverence for the laws, be breathed by every American mother, to the lisping babe, that prattles on her lap—let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges;—let it be written in Primers, spelling books, and in Almanacs;—let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation; and let the old and the young, the rich and the poor, the grave and the gay, of all sexes and tongues, and colors and conditions, sacrifice unceasingly upon its altars.”

The following is not gospel by FF, rather, it is an idea worth examining.

Could Abraham Lincoln have said "let it become the political religion of the nation" because he knew that although the Constitution was not gospel in and of itself it did, however, it did possess religious parallels and deemed it worthy to be taught to all?

Wiikwajio wrote:“Let it [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges. Let it be written in primers, in spelling books, and almanacs. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. In short, let it become the political religion of the nation.” Presidents Grant,McKay and Benson and Apostle Wirthlin just recently, 1995, repeated this admonition.

Where are these four referrences to be found?

The original is by Abraham Lincoln.

I have read much here on this thread of attacking/ mocking/ personally afronting others and telling them they are doing it wrong, or to just wait until the lord makes it better, wait for the prophet, church of the devil is anything outside of our church, etc etc????????????? Who are we to determine what another has been lead to do by the Lord himself.

"awake" to what exactly???? Maybe we should awake to our own ability to recieve personal revelation.

Henmasher wrote: So tell me this since you appear to be choice above all others on this forum.

I am not more choice than you, obviously, You have the apparent God given gift of telling others they are apostate or in error concerning doctrine and you can do it all without any proof or evidence. Just anger at a individual that has followed the teachings of the Prophets concerning individual revelation. Quite the gift you have been given. I am in awe.

Henmasher wrote: Did the prophet say the literal Constitution would be saved?

Perhaps you should read Not Commanded In All Things. The answer is there. Benson said it was conditional upon our actions.

Henmasher wrote: I mean since we should follow literaly which one of us, will it be you, that literaly runs to DC and grabs the constitution and saves it while its hangs from a thread?

Perhaps you should read Not Commanded In All Things. it will be the choice spirits that don't wait to be commanded in all things. Or do you openly disagree with Elder Benson speaking in GC?

Henmasher wrote: If we are to ever take every spoken word of the prophets literal and some not I would think a self proclaimed choice spirit would be able to answer this question.

The choice spirit does not answer the questions for you. The choice spirit receives the answer to his own questions from the Holy Ghost so that he knows what to do for himself and family. Choice spirits know this. Those Less spiritually advanced people will need instructions from the Prophet directly, according to Elder Benson in General Conference. Were you unable to understand this concept? Or did you fail to read his talk?

Henmasher wrote: Here is something maybe that you should understand before you place oneself up as a light to others on a discussion forum.

“I do not believe that any man lives up to his ideals, but if we are striving, if we are working, if we are trying, to the best of our ability, to improve day by day, then we are in the line of our duty. If we are seeking to remedy our own defects, if we are so living that we can ask God for light, for knowledge, for intelligence, and above all, for his Spirit, that we may overcome our weaknesses, then, I can tell you, we are in the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. Then we need have no fear...no man is perfect but one who strives earnestly to conquer weaknesses and grow into perfection does not sin. That is to say, he is not a sinner. A sinner is one who indulges in sin habitually because he takes pleasure in it" (President Heber J. Grant).

Grant and the First Presidency also said: This we feel we can definitely say, that unless the people of America forsake the sins and the errors, political and otherwise, of which they are now guilty and return to the practice of the great fundamental principles of Christianity, and of Constitutional government, there will be no exaltation for them spiritually, and politically we shall lose our liberty and free institutions....

So which one is right? I would say both. So we are to be on the right past and forsake political error or "there will be no exaltation for them spiritually..."

Henmasher wrote:That is a dead prophet that speaks to me and I can comprehend his meaning. I am not accusing anyone or never have of anything they have not indulged in themselves and then bragged or thrown out here on this forum. I call a spade a spade and have not called others anything than what they proclaimed themselves to be

I call a spade a spade also and you disapprove and condemn my life long work. Perhaps your beam in getting in your way? But then with your marvelous gift of criticizing the unworthy without doctrinal accountability is amazing. Especially since it is in direct opposition to Benson talk Not Commanded in All Things. I have followed that instruction to the very best of my ability and you disapprove o what I have done. You must be a very choice spirit to be able to countermand an Apostle in General Conference.

Henmasher wrote:Just some curious questions:
Who is the presiding Sovereign of this not church organization?

I am. I was the one that was given the revelation of the Testaments of Truth. I was the one that was time and again handed the secret treasures of hidden knowledge while writing and editing Testament of Sovereignty. Sam Adams is considered the Father of the Revolution because he is the key player in starting the revolution. In the Book of Mormon they named cities after the leaders. The Nephites were called the Nephites because he was their leader. We felt as though the person that was inspired to start the political religion should be in charge. The next presiding sovereign will be my son, Joshua, like the kings of the Nephites were the decedents of Nephi and the kings of Judah were the direct decedents of David. Jesus is, after the king of Israel in part because he of the line of David.

Henmasher wrote:Why is there thirteen stripes representing the 13 tribes when a baptismal font of the church you are a member of has only 12 representing 12 tribes?

Why is the tribe of Dan left off the Doors of the New Jerusalem? There are 12 doors, three on each side, yet Dan is not included. I don't know why. I guess God has His reasons. We believe that the reason we started with 13 States was because there are 13 tribes of Israel and God is reestablishing Israel in the USA. We stayed with 13 a lot because of the symbolic nature of 13 in the USA. This is, after all, a political religion for the USA. It is not for Canada or Switzerland. So the symbolism of the USA is used intentionally.

Henmasher wrote:Last two, why do you require a "free will donation?

Why does the church require you to pay tithing voluntarily to have access to the temple? And we ended that after my brother and co-founder, Dan, died, because I wanted nothing financially to do with this Fellowship. I even give the paperback book copies away for free even though it cost me about 5 FRNs to mail them.

Henmasher wrote:

Members in good standing are required to contribute a designated minimum free will offering on at least a yearly basis.

Not entirely a smart remark but isn't income tax a required free will contribution due once a year on april 15th?

If you don't pay voluntary tithing the Church of Jesus Christ does not act like the IRS. They just don't let you go to the temple. That WAS the thinking when we wrote it originally. But that principle has changed because I did not want anyone to believe that I received any financial benefit from the Fellowship. And like The Church of the Lamb of God, we don't come out with guns if you don't send it in. The IRS does. The IRS can because it is like the military. After you volunteer to be a slave, like you did, you have to be a good one or you can be punished like the slave you choose to be. If you want to stop being a slave you have to stop asking for the Master's benefits. It is like debt. If you borrowed you need to pay it back or there are penalties. I don't borrow or get benefits from the Government. In Bowen V Roy The Supreme Court explains this process. The book talks about Bowen v Roy.

freedomfighter wrote:

Wiikwajio wrote:“Let it [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges. Let it be written in primers, in spelling books, and almanacs. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. In short, let it become the political religion of the nation.” Presidents Grant,McKay and Benson and Apostle Wirthlin just recently, 1995, repeated this admonition.

Where are these four referrences to be found?

The original is by Abraham Lincoln.

The original is partially by Lincoln. http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos/0.3/

But the prophets changed it to the Constitution from the original.

I got all the quotes from LDS.org and/or Gospel Links.

freedomfighter wrote:

Mosby wrote:It's possible that I mis-quoted, B.Young I remember reading somewhere that he said the Kingdom of God was a political/government organization. It would take me a while to find the source. If I'm wrong - I apoligize,( I hate to post without sources-but I was in a hurry) my main point was that "starting a political religion" to "fight the devil" is pure foolishness- when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day- Saints already exists.

That concept seems to easy for some to grasp

Whatever you find will help. Thanks

I would love that quote too. I can use it in my lawsuits to free LDS from the Socialist Security system.

I have read much here on this thread of attacking/ mocking/ personally afronting others and telling them they are doing it wrong, or to just wait until the lord makes it better, wait for the prophet, church of the devil is anything outside of our church, etc etc????????????? Who are we to determine what another has been lead to do by the Lord himself.

"awake" to what exactly???? Maybe we should awake to our own ability to recieve personal revelation.

Thank you, for repeating this message.

Those who shout the loudest about what others are doing or not doing seem to dominate the discussions I read, and I might add that is less and less as time passes.

It's downright boring to hear the same voices chirruping their disapproval and accusations of apostasy. Maybe, those who have 'bullied' their way to dominance need to have a separate section devoted to their spiritual successes. They can even 'lock it' and make it a really, truly private club. I'm good with that notion.

The very best Mormon crickets all chirrup in unison. Perhaps, as an occasional Utah bumper sticker once observed: Happiness is Seeing Salt Lake City in the Rearview Mirror! still holds true for those who hope for a more gracious example of Christian brotherhood than that too often found amongst 'pedigreed' Mormons.

I believe Brigham Young had some concern about future generations of Mormons being prissy and self-righteous. He certainly didn't spare the use of a certain word when he called the 'sisters' to repentance over their vanities. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is HOW we treat one another and most importantly, WHAT WE DO to help one another. Shouldn't that extend to our internet correspondence as well?

Squally wrote:I have read much here on this thread of attacking/ mocking/ personally afronting others and telling them they are doing it wrong, or to just wait until the lord makes it better, wait for the prophet, church of the devil is anything outside of our church, etc etc????????????? Who are we to determine what another has been lead to do by the Lord himself.

"awake" to what exactly???? Maybe we should awake to our own ability to recieve personal revelation.

Lame Duck comment at best

Awake to our awful situation, that is why I am here hashing it out so that I may learn and as I awaken to my awful situation after seeing it through others points of view (as they have received personal revelation). I can now actively engage evil after the evil having been made known to me with my own eyes and ears.

Personal revelation will never step outside the boundaries as set up in the Gospel. All I have seen is people that think others are outside those boundaries and while "in your face, or seemingly negative," we attempt to create a common understanding or bring to light anothers errors. Wiik points out several great points of the gospel that several people miss. At times some here thinks he is over the edge and approaching a place he doesn't want to be. Why is hashing that out determining what another has been lead to do by the lord?

Again this is nothing more than differing opinions on Gospel principles/doctrines being debated and explained so that others may see anothers point of view. I agree with several things Wiik has posted now that after debate I can see his point of view. Personal revelation comes through study and apparently for myself and maybe others....a loud and long debate.

Can't we all be friends will not be enough to awaken others or myself

buffalo_girl wrote:

I have read much here on this thread of attacking/ mocking/ personally afronting others and telling them they are doing it wrong, or to just wait until the lord makes it better, wait for the prophet, church of the devil is anything outside of our church, etc etc????????????? Who are we to determine what another has been lead to do by the Lord himself.

"awake" to what exactly???? Maybe we should awake to our own ability to recieve personal revelation.

Thank you, for repeating this message.

Those who shout the loudest about what others are doing or not doing seem to dominate the discussions I read, and I might add that is less and less as time passes.

It's downright boring to hear the same voices chirruping their disapproval and accusations of apostasy. Maybe, those who have 'bullied' their way to dominance need to have a separate section devoted to their spiritual successes. They can even 'lock it' and make it a really, truly private club. I'm good with that notion.

The very best Mormon crickets all chirrup in unison. Perhaps, as an occasional Utah bumper sticker once observed: Happiness is Seeing Salt Lake City in the Rearview Mirror! still holds true for those who hope for a more gracious example of Christian brotherhood than that too often found amongst 'pedigreed' Mormons.

I believe Brigham Young had some concern about future generations of Mormons being prissy and self-righteous. He certainly didn't spare the use of a certain word when he called the 'sisters' to repentance over their vanities. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is HOW we treat one another and most importantly, WHAT WE DO to help one another. Shouldn't that extend to our internet correspondence as well?

Amen, and Amen! I like constructive communicatory learning tools. And if we profess to be "saints" we must abide by these:

Mosiah 3: 19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

D&C 19:41
41 Or canst thou be humble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen.

There are those that state we are being watched by government. That is nothing compared to this:

Jacob 2: 10, 15
10 But, notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must do according to the strict commands of God, and tell you concerning your wickedness and abominations, in the presence of the pure in heart, and the broken heart, and under the glance of the piercing eye of the Almighty God.
15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust!

How can any of us be haughty, arrogant, self righteous, back-biters, gossipers and so on, and expect to be saved? Salvation entails every teaching of Jesus Christ. We cannot pick and choose which ones to follow at our best. Remember . . . Zion= Pure In Heart. We can't go wrong in striving to live by every word that proceeds forth out of God's mouth, but we will go wrong by trying to offer up unto God wooden knickels.

Morm. 9: 6
6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day. (White) here is not referring to ethnicity.

buffalo_girl wrote:

I have read much here on this thread of attacking/ mocking/ personally afronting others and telling them they are doing it wrong, or to just wait until the lord makes it better, wait for the prophet, church of the devil is anything outside of our church, etc etc????????????? Who are we to determine what another has been lead to do by the Lord himself.

"awake" to what exactly???? Maybe we should awake to our own ability to recieve personal revelation.

Thank you, for repeating this message.

Those who shout the loudest about what others are doing or not doing seem to dominate the discussions I read, and I might add that is less and less as time passes.

It's downright boring to hear the same voices chirruping their disapproval and accusations of apostasy. Maybe, those who have 'bullied' their way to dominance need to have a separate section devoted to their spiritual successes. They can even 'lock it' and make it a really, truly private club. I'm good with that notion.

The very best Mormon crickets all chirrup in unison. Perhaps, as an occasional Utah bumper sticker once observed: Happiness is Seeing Salt Lake City in the Rearview Mirror! still holds true for those who hope for a more gracious example of Christian brotherhood than that too often found amongst 'pedigreed' Mormons.

I believe Brigham Young had some concern about future generations of Mormons being prissy and self-righteous. He certainly didn't spare the use of a certain word when he called the 'sisters' to repentance over their vanities. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is HOW we treat one another and most importantly, WHAT WE DO to help one another. Shouldn't that extend to our internet correspondence as well?

Thanks for this Buffalogirl. When I first came off my mission I would have been chirping in unison too, because I had been taught by the arm of flesh that traditionally that this is how it's suppossed to be. Thankfully through some trials, experiences, and personal revelation, I have learned that my testimony cannot be based upon people and righteous pride (because as Ezra T Benson said there is no such thing). Pride is Pride in any form. As I seek the ability to be humble enough to listen to the Lord and not just do the popular principles and outward appearances, I have awakened to the fact that embracing the fleshly pride principles can stop spiritual progress. Saints of the most High must progress past the point of fleshly arm trusting with a bit of pride mixed in. We should instead turn to the Lord fully, where all trust should be, regardless of the costs. With an eye single to HIS Glory. If we do this, the rest falls into place.