Seminary Teacher Salary?

[ithink]

Nobody gets paid for that where I live. Could you homeschool seminary? And what is priestcraft, and why does seminary not fit into that category? Up here its a "calling".

Anyone who thinks being paid to be a seminary teacher is priestcraft (not saying you do) doesn't understand what priestcraft is. A while back I did some research, so I could have a more definitive answer in my mind regarding what is and isn't priestcraft. It has much more to do with the intention, than any money involved: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =14&t=7131

Thanks for leaving me out of your statement. 8)

It seems key to the "priestcraft" is money. Money must be in the mix. You cannot practice priestcraft without money. And since seminary teachers get money, they might be subject to this problem. From your posting:

"and does this “for the sake of riches and honor”"

"that they may get gain and praise of the world"

“for the sake of riches and honor”

On the opposite side of priestcraft is this:

"Silver and Gold have I none, but such as I have give I unto you..."

But my bigger question is why can't kids home-seminary?

[MasterOfNone]

Well, all children are "home-seminaried" over here (UK) because we do not have anywhere else to do it. There's a big push for daily early-morning seminary now and "home study" is discouraged. Both are in the home of course, but just one home in the case of the former (well, actually two homes in my ward because we cover two towns).

Bishops recommend potential seminary teachers to Stake Presidents who then extend, or have Bishops extend, the call. They are then set apart. Not sure if they get any money or not. I know Institute teachers used to get a small amount some years ago, not sure if that's still true.

[vday4sb]

I believe the initial question was about Seminary Teacher Salary, a question that I, a potential future seminary teacher, would like to know. Then it somehow digressed to a vehement anti-public education discourse and an anti-seminary-teachers-for-pay forum and even a business promotion.

Please keep in mind the following, from the agreed user terms: "Discussion on this forum should be respectful and edifying...", "These forums will not be used for personal advancement of any form...", "If you disagree with someone, attack the message, not the messenger...", and "Do not promote teachings that directly conflict with Church doctrine."

With that, I will try to clarify some misconceptions or questions others have had on this forum about various subjects:

Why some seminary teachers are paid, and why some are not
It is true that some seminary teachers are paid. Seminary teachers who teach in low-LDS population areas are often called/assigned as a seminary teacher. They teach either once a week, or once a day. In some areas like this, such teachers may be paid a travel stipend. However, there is a big difference between teaching one class a day and teaching three to six classes a day. Such preparation and effort is full-time labor. This is more time investment than the position of a Bishop (typically a 20-hour/week position). Potential teachers need to have a Bachelor's degree and go through a seminary teacher program--two semesters of unpaid and half-paid student teaching.

To those who have contended that paying seminary teachers is akin to priest-craft, please know that you are violating the user terms of this forum: "Do not promote teachings that directly conflict with Church doctrine," and you will be reported if you continue.

Why public school teachers are not paid enough
Someone on this forum decried the excessive teacher salaries this way: "after all it's for the CHILDREN." There is much truth in this statement, but perhaps I can phrase it this way, Public Education is an investment in the future--the future success of children's lives as adults and the future success and sustainability of the nation. Those do seem to be worthy goals and in line with Church doctrine, yes? Wouldn't it make sense to invest in these worthy goals, almost as a top priority? Wouldn't it make sense to have the best-trained, most highly qualified, energetic, passionate, life-long learner, kid-friendly educators in the nation teaching the children? In a Capitalistic society, how would you acquire such educators to teach in schools? Lucrative jobs with lucrative wages tend to reel in lucrative employees. Teaching in a high stress, high demand, high legal risk, with sometimes demeaning, burn-out circumstances and extremely low pay cannot yield lucrative employees. If public school teachers were paid like it was a national priority as well as the priority of every family in the nation, could you believe that the teachers who get hired would not be excellent? They would be among the best educated, most qualified, wise persons in the country.

Perhaps you say that is too idyllic, yet even if teachers were at least paid a decent livable wage (public school teachers in some states quit because they cannot raise their family on the earnings), it would be competitive enough that the worst teachers would be weeded out.

You should also know that Student Teaching is typically an unpaid semester of teaching, costs tuition, and teacher candidates are often asked not to hold another job during that time. After that, most teachers have to start by working part-time or as a sub, getting maybe half a teacher's salary for a semester or a year. Any time they might need to move out of the district, they will take a pay cut.

Keep in mind that public school teachers are paid to teach groups, not individuals. It is easy to give individualized instruction, tutoring, and help to an individual or even a small group of students. This is not the same as teaching 20-40 children who have all grown up in different homes, cultures, and with different life experiences and aptitudes.

Re: "...why can't kids home-seminary?"
That's a great question. I don't purport to have "the" answer, but consider this: Why would Church leaders want youth to participate in group seminary? Can you think of an educational reason? A missionary reason? A behavioral reason? A spiritual reason?

[Joannamk]

I have just started a "Teaching Seminary" class at my local institute. In it we are prepared to potentially be hired as seminary or institute teachers. I was told just today that a beginning first year seminary teacher should expect to get $37,000-$42,000 annually. But the teacher also told us that they encourage you to go on and get a Master's degree (you have to have a bachelor's degree to get hired in the first place.), which they pay for, and then they give you a raise once you have a master's degree. And the same goes for getting a doctorate. You won't be rich. But it's a really rewarding job and as long as you get your higher degrees it is enough to support a family on. I think most of the seminary and institute teachers I've had have not had to have their wives work outside the home.

[Thinker]

I wouldn't want to work for a financially corupt organization.
Personally, I think 3 hours of church, youth activities, FHE every week and daily personal prayer/spiritual study should be plenty, maybe even too much church with the cognitive distortions mixed in.

[samizdat]

I wouldn't want to work for a financially corupt organization.
Personally, I think 3 hours of church, youth activities, FHE every week and daily personal prayer/spiritual study should be plenty, maybe even too much church with the cognitive distortions mixed in.

Here in Mexico I know for a fact that Seminary Teachers are not paid. Institute, that's another story.

But, being Mexico, there is a lot of corruption within the system. If you have connections, you are in. If you don't, or worse, have connections with someone who has called out the corruption and tried to stop it (like a couple of past Area Presidents), you have no shot.

[Fiannan]

I have known a lot of American public school teachers and a lot of higher education professors. To be honest the professors do less work, have no need to call home to warn Johnny's parents that he is close to failing and they don't even have to correct term papers (GTFs do that). Yet a lot of public school teachers make more than professors.

That said I will note that most school districts in the USA will hire an idiot that knows how to coach football or basketball before they would hire a NASA scientist to teach physical sciences and astronomy or a businessman with a teaching certificate to teach economics.

The results of this Ideocracy mindset is that professors wind up having to slow down their lessons in university because the high school graduates can't write, analyze even the simplest concept or practically form a coherent sentence when asked to comment on something during a lecture.

[Fiannan]

One thing about seminary teachers one has to give them credit for is how would you like to have a job that if you stray from the mainstream Church message (either, to make this simple, to the right or to the left) you can be reported and you might lose your job? You might have really creative concepts you wish to add to a lesson but then what about the idea of being unemployed with a wife and kids to think about?

Gotta respect those teachers.

[djinwa]

I read through this old thread about the poor public school teachers.

I felt that way also a couple years ago. My wife was then a teacher's aide with a teaching degree, and finally broke into the system and got a job teaching 5th grade. She now works over 80 hours a week, part of which is teaching related, and much of which is complying with demands of administrators, who keep proposing more programs to justify getting more money from state and federal government. My wife homeschooled our kids in their early grades and wished she could spend more time teaching.

Someone mentioned that teachers should all protest and change the system. That is kind of like soldiers protesting our foreign policy. They might just get kicked out, and then replaced with the next guy. As a military officer, I tried to change some things to no avail, then decided on principle to separate. Did that help anything? Nope, I was replaced, and the next guy is getting the millions in pay and retirement and benefits I gave up. Same in teaching. There are always more naïve young teachers to hire who have been taught that government is the answer to education.

My wife may quit just because she can't handle the craziness, but I put most of the blame on parents and citizens who worship government and want it to provide for all their needs. Parents want a school that will feed and teach their kids. If their kid isn't learning or is terrorizing the class, the teacher is blamed.

The best thing for education would be to shut down the public schools and tell parents its up to them. Many parents had kids with the understanding that someone else would care for them, including many large families - can't actually care for then on their own.

[Fiannan]

Public school teachers who don't have the sense to pour you-know-what out of a boot, have poor teaching skills or lower IQ very, very often go to school in summer a couple of times, get an administrative certificate, and then get jobs as principals, vice-principals and superintendents.

[North_Star]

groan.

[Cwilder]

Excuse me while I vomit at the right to know website that says I make $65,000 a year hahaha give me a break. I can verify on all my taxes $37,500 is my salary. Half of what it says I make. No wonder there are people like you out there advocating to cut teacher pay. I've taught for five years and am working on a masters; with my masters I will still only make $40,000. If they are adding in benefits like healthcare I pay a $6,000 deductible. We work during the summer... I work 60 hours a week EVERY week. It's people like you, who are condemning future students to poor education. Ask to see any teachers bank statements and tax information before you trust a website. This is why I'm quitting because of horrible people like you congratulations! Other fantastic teachers are quitting now because of people like you too!

[Serragon]

Excuse me while I vomit at the right to know website that says I make $65,000 a year hahaha give me a break. I can verify on all my taxes $37,500 is my salary. Half of what it says I make. No wonder there are people like you out there advocating to cut teacher pay. I've taught for five years and am working on a masters; with my masters I will still only make $40,000. If they are adding in benefits like healthcare I pay a $6,000 deductible. We work during the summer... I work 60 hours a week EVERY week. It's people like you, who are condemning future students to poor education. Ask to see any teachers bank statements and tax information before you trust a website. This is why I'm quitting because of horrible people like you congratulations! Other fantastic teachers are quitting now because of people like you too!

Wow! I'm not sure where you teach school, but you are getting ripped off. It also sounds like I wouldn't want you anywhere near my kids.

If you taught in Portland, Or you would be making 46k w/ no additional schooling. If you had your masters you would make 55K. Since you are working on your masters you would fall somewhere in between. This info is posted by the portland school district. I doubt they are lying.

All this for a 192 day work year. That is 60 days/year less than I have to work.

That is about $30/hr for a 5th year teacher with no additional schooling. $36/hour w/ a masters degree.

Not great, but not terrible either.

[skmo]

When I started teaching in Alaska with a B.S. I was making $58K a year. My last year up there with my MEd I made $78K. And if anyone wants to complain about the Summer months I got off (even though if you're returning to a district they're likely to require you to take 1-2 weeks training in the Summer) I'm going to ask you to learn a little better before you start flapping your gums together. In AK, my teaching day started at 8:00am. I left the school most days at about 5 for an hour to get dinner, then back to the school for planning, grading, extra-curricular activities which are NOT optional, and if I got home by 9 it was an early night. Our Principal understood that there should be one evening per week when no after school activities should be planned. Wednesday evening became "Buffy" night where most of the teachers would come over to our place for my wife's home made pizza and a couple episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. About 60% of the time there were Saturday all day activities that would usually start around 10 and would go until 2-3am. Very few Sundays were ever used other than in basketball season. (ask me about how much I love basketball ONLY if you want to hear a raging tirade of swear words.)

You work the kinds of hours we did and see if having someone complaining about having Summers off shouldn't be considered justifiable for flogging. Most of us did these things not just because it was part of the job, but also because we loved so many of the kids and we wanted to do all we could to teach them and make them want more out of life.

Of course, when we retired and came to UT, my Masters and years of service gained me a salary of $37K a year.

You know why your husband's "hands are tied"? Two reasons: Because he and all other teachers are too scared to "buck the system" (if they did things would be different)- and they are all slaves to the NEA (where their wonderful benefits come from)

Again, please try a little harder to educate yourself before you spout off like that against a group as a blanket statement. In one of our staff meetings with an AK State education official I garnered the anger of our Asst. Superintendent because when state lady asked if there was anything she could do to help us, I made the mistake of giving an honest answer. I said we understood that she was to come and give state guidance about how to improve our school, but instead all she did was demean us, insult us, and threaten us. When I pointed out that she used the old threat of "The state may have to replace you with better qualified teachers" I pointed out that there were no teachers willing to come to where we were, and this fact was evident from the number of job openings there still were around the state. I said before she blamed us for all the problems with the school, if she wanted to help us she should get the federal government out of our local schools because they made us do so many tests we had so little precious time to actually teach. I went on for about ten minutes, after which I heard from my Principal that the Asst. Supt. instructed him to fire me, which he flat out refused to do because the kids liked me, the parents liked me, the village council liked me, and he wasn't going to fire me for telling the truth. (He did call me in to his office and suggest if I ever wanted to climb higher in education I needed to guard my words to someone so high - I said I'd rather be a piano player in a whorehouse than be a state-level education official because at least it would be honest work. He laughed.)

By the way, some of us stood up and debated the NEA when they tried to bully us into joining. Right in the middle of the meeting. When I started to make sense and have a few teachers nod in agreement, they said it was clear I didn't plan on being a very good teacher, and the NEA only wanted good teachers to be involved, and would I please leave. I laughed all the way out the door.

And yes, our hands ARE tied. If you're going to be a teacher, you either put up with gov't bureaucracy and try to circumvent it so you can still try to educate kids or you quit and go into a different profession. You tell me how practical that is in this economy. A district has no qualms about firing teachers they see as "troublemakers" so they can keep others in line. Skill and effectiveness as a teacher guarantees you NOTHING. Zip, zero, nada. There are always new teachers to replace us.

[Rachael]

Nobody gets paid for that where I live. Could you homeschool seminary? And what is priestcraft, and why does seminary not fit into that category? Up here its a "calling".

My sister and brother in law co teach institute. They don't receive any pay

[skmo]

All this for a 192 day work year. That is 60 days/year less than I have to work.

That is about $30/hr for a 5th year teacher with no additional schooling. $36/hour w/ a masters degree.

Not great, but not terrible either.

One problem with your numbers: I don't know of any teacher who only works the school day hours. Granted, we'd put in more hours in Alaska than most other places, but I've never known a teacher who didn't stay for an hour or two more and then often times take grading home to do in the evening.

I got curious about your numbers. I took an average work week in Alaska. We'd arrive at 8 and, minus an hour at home for dinner, we'd leave at 9 that night. This was almost every day. Most Saturdays you could count a minimum of 8 hours, more during sports (basketball, volleyball, and Eskimo games.) We're looking at something more like 65 hours a week, Yes, there were some times we'd do a little less, but that was more than offset by the fact that more often than not we didn't get to go right home at 9 on weekdays or 2-3am on Saturdays. Adding up the number of weeks we'd be in school and training we'd have 42 weeks a year. That's about right because we'd get June and July and the first 10-12 days of August.

Hours of work per year: 2730. If we took the average of my salaries from having a MEd it was around $65K. That works out to $23.81 I'd make per hour of work with a Masters. The education world has gotten more than its share of me. Much of it I enjoyed, but even in cases where I'd enjoy things there'd be an equal number of frustrating things. Keep in mind at one point I got so dejected about the bleek outlook kids had and the pain I absorbed into myself seeing it on their faces, one evening I found myself looking down the barrel of my .45 wondering just how bad the Telestial Kingdom could be. That's when I realized how bad things were and I hopped on the first plane to Anchorage and got in to the first Psychiatrist I could.

For every ROAD (retired on active duty) teacher, there's a handful of others who make our students one of the highest priorities of our lives.

[Rachael]

I have just started a "Teaching Seminary" class at my local institute. In it we are prepared to potentially be hired as seminary or institute teachers. I was told just today that a beginning first year seminary teacher should expect to get $37,000-$42,000 annually. But the teacher also told us that they encourage you to go on and get a Master's degree (you have to have a bachelor's degree to get hired in the first place.), which they pay for, and then they give you a raise once you have a master's degree. And the same goes for getting a doctorate. You won't be rich. But it's a really rewarding job and as long as you get your higher degrees it is enough to support a family on. I think most of the seminary and institute teachers I've had have not had to have their wives work outside the home.

Wow... I should have aimed for a CES career instead of worrying about all these Sallie Mae loans...

[Serragon]

All this for a 192 day work year. That is 60 days/year less than I have to work.

That is about $30/hr for a 5th year teacher with no additional schooling. $36/hour w/ a masters degree.

Not great, but not terrible either.

One problem with your numbers: I don't know of any teacher who only works the school day hours. Granted, we'd put in more hours in Alaska than most other places, but I've never known a teacher who didn't stay for an hour or two more and then often times take grading home to do in the evening

Most people on salary work more than 40 hrs per week. That is why they are on salary. In my profession, a 50 hr week is considered a light load.

I am not disparaging teachers. I am simply stating facts. The poster I responded to was hysterical in their statements.