LDS Freedom Forum

On another message board, I've conversed a little with a young man who has a website that deals with some of his favorite topics, including the reckoning of time. He has drawings and diagrams posted that you can download which he got from an older brother who spent more than a decade piecing together a timeline leading up through the Second Coming.

The diagrams are small and so you have to download them to see them full size. They are filled with scriptural references and notes. It's a lot to wade through but very interesting, whether or not you agree with the conclusions.

I haven't seen it come up on this website before but thought some of you might really enjoy it.

You can find his site here. http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPal ... _Time.html

He calls the diagrams scrolls and has named his site "Angel Palmoni" after the angel mentioned in Daniel by that name who is the numberer of secrets.

He puts the Second Coming in Dec 2015...

Thanks for the link, I'll check it, looks interesting.

He puts the Second Coming in Dec 2015. If he is talking about the New Jerusalem or Adam ondi Ahmen, he may be close.

NoGreaterLove wrote:He puts the Second Coming in Dec 2015. If he is talking about the New Jerusalem or Adam ondi Ahmen, he may be close.

I think he actually puts it at mid 2015, I might've remembered that wrong. I know he puts "the establishment of Zion" at Dec 2011. Like I said, it's a ton of info. He says that while he was on his mission, he met an older Brother at church who had basically spent 12 years correlating the scriptures to historical kingdoms and then mapping out a time line. I read through it all once a couple of weeks ago and then kind of shelved it meaning to examine it fully at a later date due to having other research already on-going.

What's fascinating is that (if I'm reading the diagram correctly) he puts the start of the 7 years of tribulation in the last quarter of 2008. Matches up nicely with the Sept '08 financial crash.

If it truly is in 2015, we have a lot of work to do in a very short amount of time. An overwhelming amount of work.

Original_Intent wrote:If it truly is in 2015, we have a lot of work to do in a very short amount of time. An overwhelming amount of work.

After posting the link, I decided to start reading through the material in earnest. He has the the 7 years mentioned in Ezekiel 39:9 beginning in 2008.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

??????

Doesn't this happen after the battle of Armeggedon? I'm soooo not following the logic of this timeline and I've noticed that some of the scriptures are off - if you look at it and the verse doesn't make sense, scan around the listed verse and you might find the right reference.

There were two Councils of Orange, years 441 and 529. But the dates given are Julian not Gregorian. I wonder which council he is referring to, and how he connects the loss of the sacrament to that date. And, I'm wondering how he reconciles Julian Calendar dates with Gregorian calendar dates, or if he's confusing Gregorian dates with Julian dates. If he is, I would have serious questions about his research.

Looks like somebody put in a lot of work, but I'm not able to download the charts for some reason. I'll try again later.

Bob

He has the the 7 years mentioned in Ezekiel 39:9 beginning in 2008.

That is most likely 29 years from now or more.

I have a hard time trust non-LDS sources on these things because they don't have the benefit of modern scripture. Christian evangelicals have no answer for what will happen to America other than that it will be absorbed into the one world government and become part of the Beast. They understand old Jerusalem fairly well and the book of Revelation, but they rarely understand Isaiah, they don't have the benefit of the BOM or D&C. This makes it all suspect and incomplete. What of Ephraim having the birthright? They can't answer that. They don't understand how the isles of the sea, or "the lands beyond Cush" are blessed of the Lord. It also tends to ignore all the positive chapters of the book of Revelation that take the approach that while things are getting worse in some parts of the world, on the other hand, we have this gathering of Saints whose robes have been washed white, etc. etc.

pjbrownie wrote:I have a hard time trust non-LDS sources on these things because they don't have the benefit of modern scripture. Christian evangelicals have no answer for what will happen to America other than that it will be absorbed into the one world government and become part of the Beast. They understand old Jerusalem fairly well and the book of Revelation, but they rarely understand Isaiah, they don't have the benefit of the BOM or D&C. This makes it all suspect and incomplete. What of Ephraim having the birthright? They can't answer that. They don't understand how the isles of the sea, or "the lands beyond Cush" are blessed of the Lord. It also tends to ignore all the positive chapters of the book of Revelation that take the approach that while things are getting worse in some parts of the world, on the other hand, we have this gathering of Saints whose robes have been washed white, etc. etc.

He is LDS. There are citations form History of the Church, D&C, BOM.

Keep in mind that the scriptures tend to round dates. Christ came in the "meridian of times", and yet he arrived around year 4,000 out of the total 7,000 years that the earth will be. If someone would have taken the "meridian of times" scripture as a mathematical literal measurement, he would claim that the earth will exist for 8,000 years... which belief would be incorrect.

Also, some of the seals in revelations overlap (slightly) with other seals. For example, the restoration happened slightly before the end of the 2nd thousand years since the coming of Christ.

When the scriptures say that 1 day to God is like a 1,000 years to man, I don't take it to literally mean 1 day on Kolob is 365,250 days on earth... instead I take it to mean that it is close to this number... or somewhere around this number. Perhaps it's 850 years... or perhaps 1060 years.

When Mormon said that he couldn't write the "hundredth part" of his history, do we literally think 0.01%? Don't we know that the Nephites did NOT use a decimal system? I'm thinking this was the nearest/closest translation available to the actual number Mormon gave.

I would say the 2nd coming is definitely within the next 100 years, but I don't think the scriptures measurements specific enough to determine a year and month.

Remember... the Jehovah's Witnesses did this (tried to determine the date of the second coming using scriptural references and math) and determined that Christ would come in 1914 (with a physical body). When He didn't come at that point, thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses committed suicide... then they rewrote their doctrines. They then changed their religion to instead claim that Christ will only come in spirit (without a body), and that he did, in fact, come in 1914, and this was evident in the starting of World War I (which is incorrect).

Also, the scriptures tell us that we'll know the year and month, NOT by using scriptural math, but instead by recognizing the signs, just like how the blooming of the flowers lets us know that spring is coming soon.

TonyOlsen wrote:Keep in mind that the scriptures tend to round dates. Christ came in the "meridian of times", and yet he arrived around year 4,000 out of the total 7,000 years that the earth will be. If someone would have taken the "meridian of times" scripture as a mathematical literal measurement, he would claim that the earth will exist for 8,000 years... which belief would be incorrect.

Also, some of the seals in revelations overlap (slightly) with other seals. For example, the restoration happened slightly before the end of the 2nd thousand years since the coming of Christ.

When the scriptures say that 1 day to God is like a 1,000 years to man, I don't take it to literally mean 1 day on Kolob is 365,250 days on earth... instead I take it to mean that it is close to this number... or somewhere around this number. Perhaps it's 850 years... or perhaps 1060 years.

When Mormon said that he couldn't write the "hundredth part" of his history, do we literally think 0.01%? Don't we know that the Nephites did NOT use a decimal system? I'm thinking this was the nearest/closest translation available to the actual number Mormon gave.

I would say the 2nd coming is definitely within the next 100 years, but I don't think the scriptures measurements specific enough to determine a year and month.

Remember... the Jehovah's Witnesses did this (tried to determine the date of the second coming using scriptural references and math) and determined that Christ would come in 1914 (with a physical body). When He didn't come at that point, thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses committed suicide... then they rewrote their doctrines. They then changed their religion to instead claim that Christ will only come in spirit (without a body), and that he did, in fact, come in 1914, and this was evident in the starting of World War I.

Also, the scripture tell us that we'll know the year and month, NOT by using scriptural math, but instead by recognizing the signs, just like how the blooming of the flowers lets us know that spring is coming soon.

Thanks Tony, this is one subject that really evades my ability to comprehend while if I realize spring by the flowers sprouting, and here in Utah "SNOW FALL and below FREEZING temeratures" again. I will know the Saviour is near.

will exist for 8,000 years... which belief would be incorrect.

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

NoGreaterLove wrote:

will exist for 8,000 years... which belief would be incorrect.

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

...only if you use fuzzy-logic and stretch "short time" into 1,000 years.

TonyOlsen wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:

will exist for 8,000 years... which belief would be incorrect.

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

...only if you use fuzzy-logic and stretch "short time" into 1,000 years.

Yes, there are only seven thousand year periods of the earth's temporal existence, hence the Seven Seals which represent those 7 thousand years.

The Seventh Thousand Year period begins slightly before Christ's return in order to prepare the earth for that event. I believe that 'short' period will be about 21/22 years. I suppose it all depends on whether you believe the 7th Seal opened at the end of 1999 or is still yet to open, maybe next year in 2011, as to how much longer we have left?

Most of the last Seventh Thousand Year period has to be one of peace and harmony and righteousness otherwise it goes against everything we are taught about 'the Millenium'.

A thousand years of battling with satan and his demons doesn't sound very peaceful and harmonius to me!

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

I think this is a correct interpretation. Only a "little season" (day) to the Lord. Though I would add it was after the 1000 years of the millenium was completed that the 1000 year "little season" would begin.

Mindfields wrote:

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

I think this is a correct interpretation. Only a "little season" (day) to the Lord. Though I would add it was after the 1000 years of the millenium was completed that the 1000 year "little season" would begin.

So why no mention of this additional 8th thousand year 'little season' anywhere. The Scriptures speak of one last battle at the end of the 7th Thousand Years between Michael and his followers and Satan and his followers. I don't think that will take a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.
And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb. (D&C 88:111-115)

Its interesting that Revelation says God fights our battles but the D&C says Michael fights our battles!?

This Man Michael is pretty amazing. He's everywhere. He lead the hosts of heaven in the pre-existence. He cast out Satan. He then comes to earth with his wife as the First Man and starts the human family. He later comes to Adam-Ondi-Ahman and sits on a throne where he gives keys to the Son of Man. At the end of the Millenium he's in charge again, fighting our battles and deciding who sits upon the throne of the Lamb!

I feel like bursting into 'Sons of Michael, he Approaches' (Hymn No. 51)

Sons of Michael, he approaches!
Rise, the ancient father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him;
Minister before his feet.
Hail the patriarch’s glad reign,
Spreading over sea and main.

LukeAir2008 wrote:

Mindfields wrote:

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

I think this is a correct interpretation. Only a "little season" (day) to the Lord. Though I would add it was after the 1000 years of the millenium was completed that the 1000 year "little season" would begin.

So why no mention of this additional 8th thousand year 'little season' anywhere. The Scriptures speak of one last battle at the end of the 7th Thousand Years between Michael and his followers and Satan and his followers. I don't think that will take a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.
And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb. (D&C 88:111-115)

Its interesting that Revelation says God fights our battles but the D&C says Michael fights our battles!?

This Man Michael is pretty amazing. He's everywhere. He lead the hosts of heaven in the pre-existence. He cast out Satan. He then comes to earth with his wife as the First Man and starts the human family. He later comes to Adam-Ondi-Ahman and sits on a throne where he gives keys to the Son of Man. At the end of the Millenium he's in charge again, fighting our battles and deciding who sits upon the throne of the Lamb!

I feel like bursting into 'Sons of Michael, he Approaches' (Hymn No. 51)

Sons of Michael, he approaches!
Rise, the ancient father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him;
Minister before his feet.
Hail the patriarch’s glad reign,
Spreading over sea and main.

Great point!! Adam Micheal is everywhere isn't he!

Squally wrote: So why no mention of this additional 8th thousand year 'little season' anywhere. The Scriptures speak of one last battle at the end of the 7th Thousand Years between Michael and his followers and Satan and his followers. I don't think that will take a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.
And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb. (D&C 88:111-115)

Its interesting that Revelation says God fights our battles but the D&C says Michael fights our battles!?


This Man Michael is pretty amazing. He's everywhere. He lead the hosts of heaven in the pre-existence. He cast out Satan. He then comes to earth with his wife as the First Man and starts the human family. He later comes to Adam-Ondi-Ahman and sits on a throne where he gives keys to the Son of Man. At the end of the Millenium he's in charge again, fighting our battles and deciding who sits upon the throne of the Lamb!

I feel like bursting into 'Sons of Michael, he Approaches' (Hymn No. 51)

Sons of Michael, he approaches!
Rise, the ancient father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him;
Minister before his feet.
Hail the patriarch’s glad reign,
Spreading over sea and main.


Great point!! Adam Micheal is everywhere isn't he!

This battle will be a battle of testimony, in other words missionary work. The same way the battle took place in the pre-existence, and as missionary work continues in mortality today. The "fire from heaven" is the Holy Ghost cleansing, just as he has always done during this telestial mortality and will continue to do so during, and to the end of the terrestrial mortality.

Yup, Father Adam is everywhere, we are his children! In the end, we're sealed to him!

Bob

LukeAir2008 wrote:

TonyOlsen wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:...

Do not forget the short time Satan has after the seventh seal to gather his followers for one final battle. A few apostles have stated it is possible this is 1000 years long.

...only if you use fuzzy-logic and stretch "short time" into 1,000 years.

Yes, there are only seven thousand year periods of the earth's temporal existence, hence the Seven Seals which represent those 7 thousand years.

The Seventh Thousand Year period begins slightly before Christ's return in order to prepare the earth for that event. I believe that 'short' period will be about 21/22 years. I suppose it all depends on whether you believe the 7th Seal opened at the end of 1999 or is still yet to open, maybe next year in 2011, as to how much longer we have left?

Most of the last Seventh Thousand Year period has to be one of peace and harmony and righteousness otherwise it goes against everything we are taught about 'the Millenium'.

A thousand years of battling with satan and his demons doesn't sound very peaceful and harmonius to me!

Do I remember correctly that the 7th seal actually started with the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Rather than trying to interpret Revelations, why not just read Sterling Sill's conference talk about the seven seals and the reckoning of time. Pretty straight forward. Seven seals, 1000 years each. No Mayan calendars, no Gregorian chants, no mistakes in time, just seven seals.
( by the way we are in the seventh seal, start the fight)

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx ... turday.htm

We have historical evidence that Adam lived and that our method of reckoning the story of man on the earth begins with him. We read that Christ came in the meridian of time, or about 4,000 years after the fall of Adam when modern time began, and that time will continue until after the millennium and a little season, when the earth will be celestialized. If Jesus came in the meridian of time, then the end of time must be somewhere near 4,000 years since his time. We have passed through nearly 2,000 years of the second period, or from the time of our Lord. We have the millennium to come and then a season which is rather indefinite when Satan will be loosed and will gather his forces to fight the great last battle, then the end will come. If Adam was the first man, how could there be men before him?

Will you kindly explain, according to your theories, what is meant by verse six in Section 77, Doctrine and Covenants, which is as follows:

6. Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals.

A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. (D. & C. 77:6. (Question and Answer).)

If the earth is to have only seven thousand years of temporal existence how do you account for the existence for millions of years of death and mortal change on the earth? Then kindly explain the meaning of the seven seals, each representing a day (i.e.) one thousand years each in verse 12, wherein the Lord, who made the world in six days, will finish his work?


(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 5: 114.)

"And when he [Satan] is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth." This "little season" is presumed to be another thousand years. The reasoning is that Christ came in the meridian of time, which means both the high point in time and the middle of time. The millennial era will be the seventh period of one thousand years of this earth's temporal continuance; thus an added thousand-year period is needed to place the meridian of time in the midpoint in history
(Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982], 695.)

( by the way we are in the seventh seal, start the fight)

Where is my rope?

We do not know what the meridian of time is a meridian of. We have not been told that. We should not assume it is talking about the seven thousand years of the earths temporal existence.

Meridian of time

The word meridian means middle; meridian of time refers to the middle of time or to the time when Jesus Christ lived upon the earth.

Selected Quotations

"Our Savior came in the meridian of time. That dispensation is called the dispensation of the meridian of time. This means that it was about half-way from the beginning of 'time' to the end of 'time.' Anyone who desires can figure it for himself, that our Lord came about 4, 000 years from the time of the fall. The millennium is to come some time following the 2, 000 years after his coming. Then there is to be the millennium for 1, 000 years, and following that a 'little season,' the length of which is not revealed, but which may bring 'time' to its end about 8, 000 years from the beginning." (Joseph Fielding Smith, DS 1:81.)

Scriptural References:

D&C 20:26; 39:3; Moses 5:57; 6:57, 62; 7:46.


(Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the New Testament: The Four Gospels [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982], 178.)

Time meridian: Any meridian used as a reference for reckoning time, particularly a zone or standard.

In the west our time is reckoned according to the birth of Christ in 1BC. So either time is before Christ (BC) or is after Christ or in the Year of our Lord (AD).

This is the reality of our situation and is confirmed by revelation.

If our time wasn't reckoned by the birth of Christ it would have to be reckoned by another meridian such as the Fall of Adam or the supposed Creation of Adam.

This is how the Hebrew calendar works. We are in the Hebrew year 5770 which they believe is 5770 years since the creation of Adam.

A time meridian is totally different from a geometrical meridian. It can be any point from which time is then measured.