LDS Freedom Forum

Ah ... I remember way back in the late 1970's (yes I'm that old), a group of us at work, got all worked up about articles and predictions that centered on Daniel's dates and writings and the "desolation of abominations" and such. After months of going over this, and discussing it, we all concluded that the "abomination" was the "Dome of the Rock" mosque in Jerusalem. It all fit so perfectly! That it's "desolation" was to happen in 1984. All the calculations pointed to it! Well ... 1984 came and went and nothing happened. Ever since then, I just kinda forgot about trying to guess just when such & such will happen. I watch the signs, and clearly they are all about us. Surely the "fig tree is ripe" ... but just how long will it be allowed to ripen. I have grown Alberta peaches and watched them become ripe for the picking, for about 10 days, they seem to hit their peak. So just how long will our "fig tree" be allowed to ripen? How long will all the "tribulations" be allowed and to what degree? Finally, I look to the official mouthpiece of the Lord here on earth, and put faith that nothing will get done without first him being informed. Most important, be prepared as best we can in all the categories we know about.

Another thought ... Vendal Jones (a evangelical preacher turned Jewish) has studied the copper scroll (from the Dead Sea scrolls) and has used it as a translation to locate a "cave of the columns" which supposedly, contains two caves - the first supposedly has the "silver scroll" which gives instructions on how to handle the "ark of the convenant". And, I think, the ashes of the red heifer, which must be mixed with a new (and final) perfect red heifer before the entrance into the temple can happen. And the second cave has the "ark" and the portable tabernacle that Moses took with him.

You can go to his website - very interesting. Read all about his recoveries. Only thing, each year passes and the caves are not opened.

He also claims to have found the location Gilgal, where the "portable tabernacle" was set up for some time. It is on "uncontested ground".

He has apparently used "ground penetrating radar" to confirm the caves below. This all begs the question - so, why no go ahead and open the caves? Well, he claims the Israeli "dept of antiquities" prevents him from doing so and one can understand why they wouldn't want such a discovery for if in deed the ark is found, it will not be like in the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ... for Jones has stated that he would immediately give it to the rabbis who are working with them and suddenly we would see most all of Judaism turn "messianic" and focus not on the synegogue, rather become "temple focused" which would be the "portable tabernacle". Plausibly all the "hassitic" (sp) Jews in New York would want to emigrate to Israel. Israel would explode in population. Israel would suddenly end being a secular state and turn religious. Certain winding up scenes would miraculously become possible. This would avoid all the predictions about raising the "Dome of the Rock" and probably sparking a holy war against Israel. Interesting stuff though. Think about it. Note how there has been much hub-bub over the birth of a perfect red heifer ... necessary for the "ashes of the red heifer" cleansing ceremony. Such a recovery would change the global geo-political climate, over night. Israel would become messianic. It would challenge the drive for global governance. And one could see how all the rest of the nations would rise against Israel ... even the increasingly secular U.S.

Dale wrote:So, by my rough calculations:

1 day for Kolob is 1000 years on earth (or approx. 1000 years)

1 Kolob year = 365,250 earth years.

1000 Kolob years = 365,250,000 earth years

7000 Kolob years = 2,556,750,000 earth years (give or take).


When we're dealing with those kind of numbers, how can anyone know the month or year or even century? It's like was stated before: It's all about the signs.

Abraham relays what the Lord taught him in regards to time. He wrote, “I saw that it [the earth at the start of the Garden of Eden Period] was after the time of Kolob, for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning” (Abraham 5:13). That is, the earth had not yet taken up its annual revolution about the sun.

In a letter to William Smith after his brother's death (the Prophet Joseph Smith), W.W. Phelps wrote:

"Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begins to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find Jesus Christ, whose going forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity: and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty-five millions of years: . . . it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!" (William W. Phelps, Times and Seasons, January 1, 1845, Vol 5, No. 24)

W.W. Phelps and Brigham Young and others were taught astronomy by the Prophet Joseph. Phelps suggests that an eternity is 2.55 Billion years. In D&C 76:4 we read that Christ is "from eternity to eternity" (or 2.55 billion years ago to perhaps another 2.55 billion years). Could these numbers possibly reveal to us some context for the Savior coming in the “meridian” of time (Moses 5:57)?

Thanks for this post Dale, this is some great information. Would make a great new topic post in and of itself, maybe you could start a new thread with this as your topic.

D&C 51:20 - Verily, I say unto you, I am Jesus Christ, who cometh quickly, in an hour you think not. Even so. Amen.

Dale wrote: W.W. Phelps and Brigham Young and others were taught astronomy by the Prophet Joseph. Phelps suggests that an eternity is 2.55 Billion years. In D&C 76:4 we read that Christ is "from eternity to eternity" (or 2.55 billion years ago to perhaps another 2.55 billion years). Could these numbers possibly reveal to us some context for the Savior coming in the “meridian” of time (Moses 5:57)?

2.55 Billion years is an eternity... 2.55... 255... the maximum value for an 8-bit binary number. Coincidence? I think not. I knew it. We're living inside the matrix!

Rensai wrote:

Dale wrote: W.W. Phelps and Brigham Young and others were taught astronomy by the Prophet Joseph. Phelps suggests that an eternity is 2.55 Billion years. In D&C 76:4 we read that Christ is "from eternity to eternity" (or 2.55 billion years ago to perhaps another 2.55 billion years). Could these numbers possibly reveal to us some context for the Savior coming in the “meridian” of time (Moses 5:57)?

2.55 Billion years is an eternity... 2.55... 255... the maximum value for an 8-bit binary number. Coincidence? I think not. I knew it. We're living inside the matrix!

I was thinking along the same lines. It's the ultimate Y2550000K bug! And it isn't software, it's hard wired!

Is it true that the Lord told Joseph Smith that if he were to live the age of a tree he would see the coming of the "son of man"?
So how long does a tree live?

Another thought is, isn't it possible that when the Lord is here for a thousand years, the earth could be changed to some degree (sorta like the Three Nephites) then afterward changed back to what it is now? I wouldn't think that the Lord wants to see a bunch of weeds and dead foliage. This idea could solve the reasoning that the earth's temporal existance is 7000 years, and at the same time, satisfy the idea of Christ coming in the meridian of time. A total of 8000 yrs.

A friend of mine said something of interest to me years ago. The bible indicates several dispensations, correct? Is it true the last dispensation began around the time when the church was organized? It was indicated that this dispensation could end between 2030 and 2040, a length of close to 200 yrs.

Another question: would the 4000 yrs conclude from the birth of Christ or His death? When one calculates 2000 yrs from his death, this brings us right back to around 2030-2033 to enter the Millenium.

freedomfighter wrote:Is it true that the Lord told Joseph Smith that if he were to live the age of a tree he would see the coming of the "son of man"?
So how long does a tree live?

so the whole 'son of man' thing has always managed to elude my comprehention... but my theory on it is that us, as men, would create life ourselves, hence the 'son of man'.

if this is correct then whithin the life of a tree (some trees live for hundreds of years) we have seen the creation of artificial life this year (2010)... creepy to me

tummteezy wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:Is it true that the Lord told Joseph Smith that if he were to live the age of a tree he would see the coming of the "son of man"?
So how long does a tree live?

so the whole 'son of man' thing has always managed to elude my comprehention... but my theory on it is that us, as men, would create life ourselves, hence the 'son of man'.

if this is correct then whithin the life of a tree (some trees live for hundreds of years) we have seen the creation of artificial life this year (2010)... creepy to me

The Son of Man (Jesus Christ) is the son of the Man of Holiness (God the Father)

"...in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time." (Moses 6:57)

LukeAir2008 wrote:

tummteezy wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:Is it true that the Lord told Joseph Smith that if he were to live the age of a tree he would see the coming of the "son of man"?
So how long does a tree live?

so the whole 'son of man' thing has always managed to elude my comprehention... but my theory on it is that us, as men, would create life ourselves, hence the 'son of man'.

if this is correct then whithin the life of a tree (some trees live for hundreds of years) we have seen the creation of artificial life this year (2010)... creepy to me

The Son of Man (Jesus Christ) is the son of the Man of Holiness (God the Father)

"...in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time." (Moses 6:57)

thanks for clarifying that! i've never been explained. just one more question... if The Son of Man is Jesus, then what/who is The Son of God?

just two different terms for the same being?

tummteezy wrote: thanks for clarifying that! i've never been explained. just one more question... if The Son of Man is Jesus, then what/who is The Son of God?

just two different terms for the same being?

Exactly! Just two different names for Jesus Christ. If you refer to the Father as God then Jesus is the Son of God. If you refer to the Father as Man of Holiness then Jesus is the Son of Man.

Moses 7:65

And it came to pass that Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years . . ..


GS Son of Man
A title that Jesus Christ used when speaking of himself (Luke 9: 22; Luke 21: 36). It meant the Son of the Man of Holiness. Man of Holiness is one of the names of God the Father. When Jesus called himself the Son of Man, it was an open declaration of his divine relationship with the Father. This title is found frequently in the Gospels. Latter-day revelation confirms the special meaning and sacredness of this name of the Savior (D&C 45: 39; 49: 6, 22; 58: 65; Moses 6: 57).

Hope this helps also.

So how long does a tree live?

The oldest known living tree is a bristlecone pine thought to be over 4800 years old. Crabapple trees usually have a lifespan of only around 10 years. Most old lived trees are around 50-250 years old.

SmallFarm wrote:

So how long does a tree live?

The oldest known living tree is a bristlecone pine thought to be over 4800 years old. Crabapple trees usually have a lifespan of only around 10 years. Most old lived trees are around 50-250 years old.

How about an Olive tree?

Sounds like we have a ways to go then.

By the way, the largest Black Cottonwood tree in the nation is in Oregon at a place called Willamette Mission Park. One can barely make it out on Google Earth. It has a twenty-seven foot base circumference.

http://www.daytrails.com/WillametteMiss ... nwood.html

How about an Olive tree?

Olive trees are among the ancient trees of the world, living 500-900 years old with some older than 2000+ years old.

Going back to the start of this thread. A lot of work went into the angelpalmoni scrolls. I dont agree that the 7th Seal opens in 2008 and that Christ will appear in 2015 but its pretty close.

Some of the dates are slightly out such as the end of the 70 Jubilees. You have to use the Hebrew perpetual calendar and not our Gregorian calendar to work out the dates. The correct dates are Monday 12 April 1422BC - Monday 6 April 2009. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... oshua.html

The time between the Second Council of Orange where the doctrine of the sacrament was changed (530AD)to the time of the First Vision was of course bang on! 1290 years! (Daniel 12:11) And if there is a short period after the Milllenium when satan is unleashed and the last battle takes place then 3155AD for the End of Days sounds good to me! (Daniel 12:12)

The meridian of time is the life of Christ 1BC - 33AD. Christ would have opened the 5th Seal in 1BC...but he didn't/couldn't because he was either in his mothers womb or was a baby in her arms...so he probably opened the 5th Seal in 11AD, when he was in his 12th year. So if the 5th Seal didn't open in 1BC but in 11AD then the 7th Seal didn't open in 2000AD but will probably open next year 2011AD.

So it's possible that God was only being kind to Joseph. He could have just as easily told Joseph not to concern himself because he wasn't going to be around long enough to witness the Second Coming, anyway . . . as an earthling.

LukeAir2008 wrote:Going back to the start of this thread. A lot of work went into the angelpalmoni scrolls. I dont agree that the 7th Seal opens in 2008 and that Christ will appear in 2015 but its pretty close.

Some of the dates are slightly out such as the end of the 70 Jubilees. You have to use the Hebrew perpetual calendar and not our Gregorian calendar to work out the dates. The correct dates are Monday 12 April 1422BC - Monday 6 April 2009. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... oshua.html

The time between the Second Council of Orange where the doctrine of the sacrament was changed (530AD)to the time of the First Vision was of course bang on! 1290 years! (Daniel 12:11) And if there is a short period after the Milllenium when satan is unleashed and the last battle takes place then 3155AD for the End of Days sounds good to me! (Daniel 12:12)

The meridian of time is the life of Christ 1BC - 33AD. Christ would have opened the 5th Seal in 1BC...but he didn't/couldn't because he was either in his mothers womb or was a baby in her arms...so he probably opened the 5th Seal in 11AD, when he was in his 12th year. So if the 5th Seal didn't open in 1BC but in 11AD then the 7th Seal didn't open in 2000AD but will probably open next year 2011AD.

That was cool!!!

23 dec 2011 is the date listed on this website as the New Jerusalem. I think he is a few years off. He did a great job of creating the timeline. There are too many variables to consider to accurately place a date on the opening and closing of seals. The Lord has lengthened out days, he has shortened them, the calendars used to be 360 days, then 365 days, then 365.25 days. Even with our modern age of computers, we nor the angels know the day nor the hour. It is fruitless to pin point a day or hour, but the seasons we are promised we will know if we are faithful.
Really cool website!

NoGreaterLove wrote:23 dec 2011 is the date listed on this website as the New Jerusalem. I think he is a few years off. He did a great job of creating the timeline. There are too many variables to consider to accurately place a date on the opening and closing of seals. The Lord has lengthened out days, he has shortened them, the calendars used to be 360 days, then 365 days, then 365.25 days. Even with our modern age of computers, we nor the angels know the day nor the hour. It is fruitless to pin point a day or hour, but the seasons we are promised we will know if we are faithful.
Really cool website!

365.25? Close enough for government work I guess Our current Gregorian calendar is 365.2422 days long (actually 365.24219878 days long). It was the Julian calendar (2 BC) that was 365.25 days long. But our Gregorian Calendar has one major problem, it has no year zero. Going backwards, it goes from 1 AD, CE or BP depending on your choice of terms, to 1 BC or BCE, in other words 1-1 instead of the correct 1 AD- 0 -1 BC. or 1-0-1!

Thus Christ was born, according to our calendar, and the 20th section of the D&C, April 6th 1 BC (BCE means "before the current era, is science trying to take Christ out of the picture?") He lived in mortality 12,048 days (3rd Nephi 8] which when converted from the Nephite 365 day calendar to our Gregorian Calendar puts his death on Friday April 1st 33 AD. Which of course, also pinpoints for us the conflagration described in 3rd Nephi 8. There are those who confuse the date using the old Julian calendar saying it was actually the 3rd of April, and according to the now outdated Julian Calendar, they are correct.

Governments and science could easily correct the discrepancy with an easy declaration, but instead they developed a new calendar called the "Julian Day Date Calendar" (Not to be confused with the 2 BC Julian Calendar used by Rome) that simply numbers the days. Starting from way back when (Sunday 1st of January 4014 BC,E ), each day is given a number, todays Julian Day Date is 2455352.5 (June 4 2010, 12 Noon). This calendar is useful in correlating dates used by the many calendars in ancient times, in fact its helped me in a lot of my research, so its not a bad thing.

I use a simple little program I paid $20 bucks for to help me in my research to determine the date of the conflagration and other dates to help me better understand ancient events.

http://www.hermetic.ch/lcef/lcef.htm

Bob

There are many signs to be seen before the Lord comes. But the Lord says the days will be shortened lest there is no one to save.

Matt 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21: 7
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

D&C 45: 16 See 16-54 for additional signs
And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh, and spake unto them, saying: As ye have asked of me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds of heaven, to fulfil the promises that I have made unto your fathers,

D&C 63: 34
And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

D&C 84: 97
And plagues shall go forth, and they shall not be taken from the earth until I have completed my work, which shall be cut short in righteousness—

freedomfighter wrote: D&C 63: 34
And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

What's a "saint"?

Mahonri wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: D&C 63: 34
And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

What's a "saint"?

A Saint tries to do what the Savior did, keeps His commandments, is baptized and confirmed, and makes the temple a goal.

A Saint stays away from evil conduct and harmful pathways.

A Saint is kind to others and helps them.

If we follow the Savior, we will have the Spirit in our lives and feel the joy of being worthy Latter-day Saints.

A Saint loves God and his or her neighbors.

A Saint loves the Savior and follows His teachings.
http://lds.org/Static%20Files/PDF/Magaz ... 00_013.pdf

And then to confuse matters more (as it does for those of us doing genealogy) the first day of the year used to be either Mar 20th or 21st....also known as Lady Day...referring to the day that the angel spoke to Mary regarding what she would be experiencing. In 1752 we changed from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar. I don't have my cheat sheet with me regarding all this, but I think the change took place in October of that year so that they went to bed on one day and woke up the next having lost the equivilant of 11 days! Boy, can you see the unions getting riled up about lost wages or something? When doing genealogy, you will often see doubledating as in 1742/43 which usually tells you that the event happened between Jan. 1 and Mar. 21...new dating being 1743 and the old dating being 1742. I know, I know...confusing...but when you work with it for awhile it gets clearer....honest!

bobhenstra wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:23 dec 2011 is the date listed on this website as the New Jerusalem. I think he is a few years off. He did a great job of creating the timeline. There are too many variables to consider to accurately place a date on the opening and closing of seals. The Lord has lengthened out days, he has shortened them, the calendars used to be 360 days, then 365 days, then 365.25 days. Even with our modern age of computers, we nor the angels know the day nor the hour. It is fruitless to pin point a day or hour, but the seasons we are promised we will know if we are faithful.
Really cool website!

365.25? Close enough for government work I guess Our current Gregorian calendar is 365.2422 days long (actually 365.24219878 days long). It was the Julian calendar (2 BC) that was 365.25 days long. But our Gregorian Calendar has one major problem, it has no year zero. Going backwards, it goes from 1 AD, CE or BP depending on your choice of terms, to 1 BC or BCE, in other words 1-1 instead of the correct 1 AD- 0 -1 BC. or 1-0-1!

Thus Christ was born, according to our calendar, and the 20th section of the D&C, April 6th 1 BC (BCE means "before the current era, is science trying to take Christ out of the picture?") He lived in mortality 12,048 days (3rd Nephi 8] which when converted from the Nephite 365 day calendar to our Gregorian Calendar puts his death on Friday April 1st 33 AD. Which of course, also pinpoints for us the conflagration described in 3rd Nephi 8. There are those who confuse the date using the old Julian calendar saying it was actually the 3rd of April, and according to the now outdated Julian Calendar, they are correct.

Governments and science could easily correct the discrepancy with an easy declaration, but instead they developed a new calendar called the "Julian Day Date Calendar" (Not to be confused with the 2 BC Julian Calendar used by Rome) that simply numbers the days. Starting from way back when (Sunday 1st of January 4014 BC,E ), each day is given a number, todays Julian Day Date is 2455352.5 (June 4 2010, 12 Noon). This calendar is useful in correlating dates used by the many calendars in ancient times, in fact its helped me in a lot of my research, so its not a bad thing.

I use a simple little program I paid $20 bucks for to help me in my research to determine the date of the conflagration and other dates to help me better understand ancient events.

http://www.hermetic.ch/lcef/lcef.htm

Bob

Mahonri wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: D&C 63: 34
And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

What's a "saint"?

The Greek word translated into Saint in the New Testament is 'άγιος' (pronounced agios). It means 'holy'. One seperated from the world.

So if you're not holy, you're not really a Latter Day Saint!