LDS Freedom Forum

The scriptures, both ancient and modern, attest that the earths temporal existence is 7000 years.

Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. (D&C 77:6)

If our time meridian is the birth of Christ, which took place around 4000 years after the fall of Adam, then it cannot be the midpoint. It is a time meridian, the meridian upon which we reckon time.

yeah...........bring it on, I "predict" April 6, 2013.............hmmmmmmmmmmm you guess why

sbsion wrote:yeah...........bring it on, I "predict" April 6, 2013.............hmmmmmmmmmmm you guess why

Really? Thats less than three years away!

Do you mean the opening of the Seventh Seal or the Appearance of Christ in Jerusalem?

I think to assume what is meant by meridian of time and what time table the Lord it basing it on would be presumptuous. I also do not feel comfortable interpreting what date the Lord is using as the starting point or the ending point. And I would not put a limit on how many years after the 7000 years are ended that the resurrection begins. There are way too many variables to consider when trying to place a date on this scripture.
If I were going to believe anything, I would believe Bruce R. McKonkie or the prophet Joseph F. Smiths feelings on the matter.
Who said after the seventh seal we are temporal? Who said the meridian of time is base on temporal? It could be based on the fall of Adam as the beginning and the complete overthrow of Satan or the final resurrection as the end. One thing we can bank on. Christ was born in the meridian of time.
No where in the scriptures does it say the earth only has a 7000 temporal existence. It only tells us about 7 seals that represent 7000 years of the earths temporal existence. Maybe a seal is not needed for the last 1000 years. Too many unknowns.

If our time meridian is the birth of Christ, which took place around 4000 years after the fall of Adam, then it cannot be the midpoint. It is a time meridian, the meridian upon which we reckon time.

You could be absolutely right.

Or, the meridian of time, the birth of our Savior, could mean the "highpoint" of time, understanding that when Christ returns, "Time" will be no longer.

Bob

LukeAir2008 wrote:Time meridian: Any meridian used as a reference for reckoning time, particularly a zone or standard.

In the west our time is reckoned according to the birth of Christ in 1BC. So either time is before Christ (BC) or is after Christ or in the Year of our Lord (AD).

This is the reality of our situation and is confirmed by revelation.

If our time wasn't reckoned by the birth of Christ it would have to be reckoned by another meridian such as the Fall of Adam or the supposed Creation of Adam.

This is how the Hebrew calendar works. We are in the Hebrew year 5770 which they believe is 5770 years since the creation of Adam.

A time meridian is totally different from a geometrical meridian. It can be any point from which time is then measured.

IF the Jewis calendar is anywhere near accurate, that would mean that we have 230 more years until the millenium?

NoGreaterLove wrote:I think to assume what is meant by meridian of time and what time table the Lord it basing it on would be presumptuous. I also do not feel comfortable interpreting what date the Lord is using as the starting point or the ending point. And I would not put a limit on how many years after the 7000 years are ended that the resurrection begins. There are way too many variables to consider when trying to place a date on this scripture.
If I were going to believe anything, I would believe Bruce R. McKonkie or the prophet Joseph F. Smiths feelings on the matter.
Who said after the seventh seal we are temporal? Who said the meridian of time is base on temporal? It could be based on the fall of Adam as the beginning and the complete overthrow of Satan or the final resurrection as the end. One thing we can bank on. Christ was born in the meridian of time.
No where in the scriptures does it say the earth only has a 7000 temporal existence. It only tells us about 7 seals that represent 7000 years of the earths temporal existence. Maybe a seal is not needed for the last 1000 years. Too many unknowns.

I think youre drifting into the realms of fantasy now. So why bother having seven seals as symbols of the seven thousand years of the earths temporal existence if the information is bogus. Why would the Lord, The Apostle John or the Prophet Joseph reveal false information. What you are in fact saying is that the Doctrine & Covenants & the Book of Revelation are fictional.

The earths temporal existence is from the fall of Adam to the end of the Millenium and the battle of God and Magog. Yes I believe that there could be a few years beyond 3000 AD in which the final winding up scene takes place. It must however be insignificant and literally a small season otherwise we would have an 8th millenium.

Before the fall of Adam the earth was not temporal. Adam and Eve were still in their perfect state and the earth was paradisical. Beyond the Millenium the earth will be Celestialized. So these periods are not classed as temporal.

I believe the D&C and the Book of Revelation to be true and I accept their testimony of Seven Thousand Year temporal periods...not eight, nine or seventy-five...Seven.

I believe the D&C and the Book of Revelation to be true and I accept their testimony of Seven Thousand Year temporal periods.

So do I!
But the Lord has not revealed all things unto us. Many things concerning this earth are not revealed. He has only revealed what we need to know and are ready to understand. We still have many books to be revealed to us with mounds of information.

You are interpreting the seven seals and Adam in paradise as the only two events of significant time. We do not know how long Adam was in the Garden of Eden. We do not know how long the short time after the Millennium is, We do not know how long the resurrection lasts (The first resurrection lasts at least 1000 years). We know there are seven seals that represent seven thousand years of Earths temporal existence . That is it! The rest is conjecture. What I am saying, is we do not know enough to make definite statements in this area. Christ was born in the meridian of time. It does not say Christ was born in the meridian of earths temporal existence. What time is God talking about? We do not know. Bob H. may be right, you may be right, but it is just a guess. Even the prophets spoke as if they were just making an educated guess. So are you saying you have an inside scoop on this?

NoGreaterLove wrote:

I believe the D&C and the Book of Revelation to be true and I accept their testimony of Seven Thousand Year temporal periods.

So do I!
But the Lord has not revealed all things unto us. Many things concerning this earth are not revealed. He has only revealed what we need to know and are ready to understand. We still have many books to be revealed to us with mounds of information.

You are interpreting the seven seals and Adam in paradise as the only two events of significant time. We do not know how long Adam was in the Garden of Eden. We do not know how long the short time after the Millennium is, We do not know how long the resurrection lasts (The first resurrection lasts at least 1000 years). We know there are seven seals that represent seven thousand years of Earths temporal existence . That is it! The rest is conjecture. What I am saying, is we do not know enough to make definite statements in this area. Christ was born in the meridian of time. It does not say Christ was born in the meridian of earths temporal existence. What time is God talking about? We do not know. Bob H. may be right, you may be right, but it is just a guess. Even the prophets spoke as if they were just making an educated guess. So are you saying you have an inside scoop on this?

Yes, I have an inside scoop. Its called the Scriptures and the Prophets.

We're not talking about before the Fall and we're not talking about the celestialization of the earth. (Didn't I say this earlier?) Once the earth is celestialized, thats it, trillions of years will pass But thats not what we're discussing!

We're talking about that bit in between which is called the temporal existence of the earth. According to the Scriptures its Seven Thousand Years. Until I see an authorized amendment to that I'll stick with 7 Thousand Years.

If it is as you say, 8 Thousand Years, why didn't the Lord just say, 8 seals, 8 thousand year periods etc.

If it is as you say, 8 Thousand Years, why didn't the Lord just say, 8 seals, 8 thousand year periods etc

So if Joseph F. Smith and Bruce R. said it is possible, you think they are wrong?

LukeAir2008 wrote:

sbsion wrote:yeah...........bring it on, I "predict" April 6, 2013.............hmmmmmmmmmmm you guess why

Really? Thats less than three years away!
Do you mean the opening of the Seventh Seal or the Appearance of Christ in Jerusalem?

Second "coming" is the Rebirth...........

So, by my rough calculations:

1 day for Kolob is 1000 years on earth (or approx. 1000 years)

1 Kolob year = 365,250 earth years.

1000 Kolob years = 365,250,000 earth years

7000 Kolob years = 2,556,750,000 earth years (give or take).


When we're dealing with those kind of numbers, how can anyone know the month or year or even century? It's like was stated before: It's all about the signs.

Abraham relays what the Lord taught him in regards to time. He wrote, “I saw that it [the earth at the start of the Garden of Eden Period] was after the time of Kolob, for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning” (Abraham 5:13). That is, the earth had not yet taken up its annual revolution about the sun.

In a letter to William Smith after his brother's death (the Prophet Joseph Smith), W.W. Phelps wrote:

"Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begins to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find Jesus Christ, whose going forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity: and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty-five millions of years: . . . it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!" (William W. Phelps, Times and Seasons, January 1, 1845, Vol 5, No. 24)

W.W. Phelps and Brigham Young and others were taught astronomy by the Prophet Joseph. Phelps suggests that an eternity is 2.55 Billion years. In D&C 76:4 we read that Christ is "from eternity to eternity" (or 2.55 billion years ago to perhaps another 2.55 billion years). Could these numbers possibly reveal to us some context for the Savior coming in the “meridian” of time (Moses 5:57)?

NoGreaterLove wrote: No where in the scriptures does it say the earth only has a 7000 temporal existence. It only tells us about 7 seals that represent 7000 years of the earths temporal existence. Maybe a seal is not needed for the last 1000 years. Too many unknowns.

Conference talk given over the pulpit.

According to the divine plan, our earth has been allotted a mortal or temporal existence of seven thousand years, patterned after the seven days of creation. The first four thousand years began with the fall of Adam and ended at the birth of Christ. But 1966 more years have come and gone since that time. Therefore, on the divine calendar we are now living in the late Saturday evening of time.
Sterling W. Sill

We call that modern scripture. I believe it trumps Revelations and its many interpretations!

Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

NoGreaterLove wrote: "Our Savior came in the meridian of time. That dispensation is called the dispensation of the meridian of time. This means that it was about half-way from the beginning of 'time' to the end of 'time.' Anyone who desires can figure it for himself, that our Lord came about 4, 000 years from the time of the fall. The millennium is to come some time following the 2, 000 years after his coming. Then there is to be the millennium for 1, 000 years, and following that a 'little season,' the length of which is not revealed, but which may bring 'time' to its end about 8, 000 years from the beginning." (Joseph Fielding Smith, DS 1:81.)

Was Joseph Fielding Smith the President at the time when he said this? The difference between things said as a President vs. as an Apostle is huge. It can make the difference between doctrine & opinion. For only Presidents of the Church can declare new doctrine.

pjbrownie wrote:Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

hint: the 11th hour does not mean what you think it means That was the same statement that got me doing some research into how the Jews number the hours of the day.....led me to recalculate the second coming (and I could be completely wrong) as happening between 2040-2055.

I really hope I am wrong. I don't want to see this country or this world 30 years down the road on the path we are currently on.

Original_Intent wrote:

pjbrownie wrote:Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

hint: the 11th hour does not mean what you think it means That was the same statement that got me doing some research into how the Jews number the hours of the day.....led me to recalculate the second coming (and I could be completely wrong) as happening between 2040-2055.

I really hope I am wrong. I don't want to see this country or this world 30 years down the road on the path we are currently on.

I'm interested in knowing how you came up 2040-2055. Thanks.

I believe the Earth will have been (or will be) moved from her regular orbit at the time of the Second Coming:

“The earth shall remove out of her place” (Isaiah 13:13).
“If he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved” (Helaman 12:13).
“The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage” (Isaiah 24:20).


Other signs of the second coming:

There shall be earthquakes also in diverse places and many desolations (Doctrine and Covenants 45:33).

The whole earth shall be in commotion (Doctrine and Covenants 45:26)

Men . . . shall not be able to stand (Doctrine and Covenants 88:89).

The earth . . . shall reel to and fro as a drunken man (Doctrine and Covenants 49:23).

The stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down: (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87).

"The land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back to their own place, and the earth shall be like it was before it was divided” (Doctrine and Covenants 133:24).

“Then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet.” -Joseph Smith

Before the coming of Christ, “the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87).

“But before that great day shall come, the sun shall be darkened . . . and the stars shall refuse their shining, and some shall fall, and great destructions await the wicked (Doctrine and Covenants 34:9).

And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. For all old things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fullness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air,and the fishes of the sea (Doctrine and Covenants 29:23-24).

I could go on and on. My point is that God cannot change or bend or break the laws of nature. What are the specific details surrounding these events within the bounds of the eternal laws of physics? What needs to happen on a cosmic scale for all these things to take place? Can and will these events take place within the next few years?



Thou, earth, wast once a glorious sphere
of noble magnitude,
And didst with majesty appear
Among the worlds of God

But thy dimensions have been torn
Asunder, piece by piece,
And each dismembered fragment borne
Abroad to distant space.

When Enoch could no longer stay
Amid corruption here,
Part of thyself was borne away
To form another sphere.

That portion where his city stood
He gained by right approved;
And nearer to the throne of God
His planet upward moved.

And when the Lord saw fit to hide
the “ten lost tribes” away,
Thou, earth, was severed to provide
The orb on which they stay.

And thus, form time to time, thy size
Has been diminished, till
Thou seemst the law of sacrifice
Created to fulfil.

When Satan’s hosts are overcome,
The martyred, princely race
Will claim thee, their celestial home—
Their royal dwelling place.

A “restitution” yet must come,
That will to thee restore,
By that grand law of worlds, thy sum
Of matter heretofore.

And thou, O earth will leave the track
Thou hast been doomed to trace;
The Gods with shouts will bring thee back
To fill thy native place

-Eliza R. Snow (Wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith)
LDS Hymns, 1891, Hymn No. 322 [emphasis added]

Original_Intent wrote:

pjbrownie wrote:Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

hint: the 11th hour does not mean what you think it means That was the same statement that got me doing some research into how the Jews number the hours of the day.....led me to recalculate the second coming (and I could be completely wrong) as happening between 2040-2055.

I really hope I am wrong. I don't want to see this country or this world 30 years down the road on the path we are currently on.

Oh please elaborate. My timeline is pretty close to yours, maybe a bit earlier, but close. The 11th hour isn't what many think it is. I think we are at 11:59:35 or something like that. That means that Sunday morning, when it is still dark, we have many trials to wade through.

pjbrownie wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

pjbrownie wrote:Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

hint: the 11th hour does not mean what you think it means That was the same statement that got me doing some research into how the Jews number the hours of the day.....led me to recalculate the second coming (and I could be completely wrong) as happening between 2040-2055.

I really hope I am wrong. I don't want to see this country or this world 30 years down the road on the path we are currently on.

Oh please elaborate. My timeline is pretty close to yours, maybe a bit earlier, but close. The 11th hour isn't what many think it is. I think we are at 11:59:35 or something like that. That means that Sunday morning, when it is still dark, we have many trials to wade through.

To the Hebrews, the 11th hour is 5pm. So get ready folks!

On a more serious note, the most correct of all books has this to say about time reckoning:

Yea, and behold I say unto you, that Abraham not only knew of these things, but there were many before the days of Abraham who were called by the order of God; yea, even after the order of his Son; and this that it should be shown unto the people, a great many thousand years before his coming, that even redemption should come unto them. Helaman 8:18 (emphasis added)

This comment by the prophet Nephi (son of Helaman) was made just a few decades before the birth of Christ. To restate his words: God had revealed the coming of Christ and established the priesthood “a great many thousand years” before Christ’s coming. He appears to be referring to more than just 4 thousand years. I think that some of the 1000 year periods are reckoned after the time of Kolob, and some after the time of man. Therefore to man it would have been "a great many thousand years."

durangout wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

pjbrownie wrote:Except that we have a mountain of statements that suggest we are living in the 11th hour, the last days, the end times, etc. etc. from Joseph Smith until today. Sure, we may not know what the meridian of time actually means, but we do know that we're close to the millennium, closer than another 1,000 years IMO.

hint: the 11th hour does not mean what you think it means That was the same statement that got me doing some research into how the Jews number the hours of the day.....led me to recalculate the second coming (and I could be completely wrong) as happening between 2040-2055.

I really hope I am wrong. I don't want to see this country or this world 30 years down the road on the path we are currently on.

I'm interested in knowing how you came up 2040-2055. Thanks.

I honestly do not remember the details. I did some research on Jewish time and "the 11th hour" was something like 3 p.m. by our current reckoning...then did the calculation based on 1 day = 1000 years and calculated from the time Joseph Smith was told it was "the 11th hour". The range was due to not being sure what PART of the 11th hour. And the entire premise could be completely wrong. It was more of a mind exercise than anything. Ah I see Dale has the CORRECT time it was 5 p.m.

Lots of questions still - does Christ come at 12:01 a.m. or at the "dawn" of the 7th day? or something else? How exact is the thousand years to a day conversion? "One day for the Lord is as 1000 years upon that which thou standest"...so was it just being stated that 1000 years from our perspective is very small amount of time to God? if it was 1005 years or 995 years does that fall within "as a thousand years"? How precise was the comparison? AFAIK, we don't really know.

Original_Intent wrote: Lots of questions still - does Christ come at 12:01 a.m. or at the "dawn" of the 7th day? or something else? How exact is the thousand years to a day conversion? "One day for the Lord is as 1000 years upon that which thou standest"...so was it just being stated that 1000 years from our perspective is very small amount of time to God? if it was 1005 years or 995 years does that fall within "as a thousand years"? How precise was the comparison? AFAIK, we don't really know.

Just to have a little fun with this idea...

Jews begin the Sabbath at sundown on Friday. Would sundown be considered the start of the new day? Notice that the description of creation characterizes "days" as "the evening and the morning" as opposed to "the morning and the evening". In other words, the day begins with the evening. Hmmm...

Using that line of thinking 5 p.m. is awfully close to the start of a new day, especially when you think about seasonal references used to describe the Second Coming.

MercynGrace wrote:

Original_Intent wrote: Lots of questions still - does Christ come at 12:01 a.m. or at the "dawn" of the 7th day? or something else? How exact is the thousand years to a day conversion? "One day for the Lord is as 1000 years upon that which thou standest"...so was it just being stated that 1000 years from our perspective is very small amount of time to God? if it was 1005 years or 995 years does that fall within "as a thousand years"? How precise was the comparison? AFAIK, we don't really know.

Just to have a little fun with this idea...

Jews begin the Sabbath at sundown on Friday. Would sundown be considered the start of the new day? Notice that the description of creation characterizes "days" as "the evening and the morning" as opposed to "the morning and the evening". In other words, the day begins with the evening. Hmmm...

Using that line of thinking 5 p.m. is awfully close to the start of a new day, especially when you think about seasonal references used to describe the Second Coming.

Summer is nigh?

SmallFarm,
The parable of the fig leaves is counsel to recognize the signs. I was referring to scriptural references to the harvest which would be in the fall as days grow shorter.

See here: http://scriptures.lds.org/gs/h/10