Page 2 of 4

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:56 pm
by Wiikwajio
KalelIsbell wrote:Wiikwajio the more of your post I read the more I think you need to be on medication :?

your logic process is not working, you’re so angry that you argue every little point that a person is trying to say, you do not listen to what they’re saying, you have ears but you do not hear. If the Lord was teaching his parables today you would argue with him about his meaning. And that is sad very sad… :(

Well thank you for telling me.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 10th, 2010, 8:24 pm
by TonyOlsen
Henmasher wrote:So did Captain Moroni pay taxes this whole time or did he eschew the current government and skip the census. :lol:
LOL :lol:

Seriously, though... King Benjamin had a 0% tax, King Noah had an oppressive 20% tax, and King Lamoni had destructive 50% tax.

I don't know if Moroni had any taxes to pay... Everyone obtained their own weapons and formed militia-like armies as needed. I think that is more like how the founding fathers initially envisioned it...

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 10th, 2010, 9:08 pm
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:So did Captain Moroni pay taxes this whole time or did he eschew the current government and skip the census. :lol:
LOL :lol:

Seriously, though... King Benjamin had a 0% tax, King Noah had an oppressive 20% tax, and King Lamoni had destructive 50% tax.

I don't know if Moroni had any taxes to pay... Everyone obtained their own weapons and formed militia-like armies as needed. I think that is more like how the founding fathers initially envisioned it...
Compare this (40% to 75% total local, State and Federal tax rate) to the plight of medieval serfs. They only had to give the lord of the manor a third of their output and they were considered slaves. So what does that make us? –Daniel J. Mitchell, economist

[A]s a nation we ignored the warning signals which preceded the great depression; we were also unready to face the onrushing realities of Fascism and Communism—whereas today many are blind to the dangers of self-oppression, the chains we put on ourselves, which is the real tyranny of our time. Neal A. Maxwell, 1972

Let me point this out now. Your income tax is 100 percent voluntary and your liquor tax is 100 percent enforced tax. Now the situation is as different as day and night. Consequently, your same rules just will not apply... –Dwight E. Avis, Head of ATF, IRS –House Ways and Means Subcommittee Hearings –1953

Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint. –United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men. So Shall Ye Reap, Ezra Taft Benson 1960

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 12th, 2010, 7:33 am
by JMarsigli
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:So did Captain Moroni pay taxes this whole time or did he eschew the current government and skip the census. :lol:
LOL :lol:

Seriously, though... King Benjamin had a 0% tax, King Noah had an oppressive 20% tax, and King Lamoni had destructive 50% tax.

I don't know if Moroni had any taxes to pay... Everyone obtained their own weapons and formed militia-like armies as needed. I think that is more like how the founding fathers initially envisioned it...
No. The notes from the constitutional convention, Federalist Papers, and writings of the Founding Fathers are very clear on taxation for wars, etc. They were very specific in allowing government debts, especially for extreme events like war.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 12th, 2010, 4:10 pm
by Squally
JMarsigli wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:So did Captain Moroni pay taxes this whole time or did he eschew the current government and skip the census. :lol:
LOL :lol:

Seriously, though... King Benjamin had a 0% tax, King Noah had an oppressive 20% tax, and King Lamoni had destructive 50% tax.

I don't know if Moroni had any taxes to pay... Everyone obtained their own weapons and formed militia-like armies as needed. I think that is more like how the founding fathers initially envisioned it...
No. The notes from the constitutional convention, Federalist Papers, and writings of the Founding Fathers are very clear on taxation for wars, etc. They were very specific in allowing government debts, especially for extreme events like war.
and wars on terror? :wink:

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 12th, 2010, 4:13 pm
by KalelIsbell
are we still talking about traffic laws??? :lol:

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 13th, 2010, 7:00 pm
by TonyOlsen
Wiikwajio wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:So did Captain Moroni pay taxes this whole time or did he eschew the current government and skip the census. :lol:
LOL :lol:

Seriously, though... King Benjamin had a 0% tax, King Noah had an oppressive 20% tax, and King Lamoni had destructive 50% tax.

I don't know if Moroni had any taxes to pay... Everyone obtained their own weapons and formed militia-like armies as needed. I think that is more like how the founding fathers initially envisioned it...
Compare this (40% to 75% total local, State and Federal tax rate) to the plight of medieval serfs. They only had to give the lord of the manor a third of their output and they were considered slaves. So what does that make us? –Daniel J. Mitchell, economist

[A]s a nation we ignored the warning signals which preceded the great depression; we were also unready to face the onrushing realities of Fascism and Communism—whereas today many are blind to the dangers of self-oppression, the chains we put on ourselves, which is the real tyranny of our time. Neal A. Maxwell, 1972

Let me point this out now. Your income tax is 100 percent voluntary and your liquor tax is 100 percent enforced tax. Now the situation is as different as day and night. Consequently, your same rules just will not apply... –Dwight E. Avis, Head of ATF, IRS –House Ways and Means Subcommittee Hearings –1953

Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint. –United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men. So Shall Ye Reap, Ezra Taft Benson 1960
You may or may not be right... I can't speak to that.

...but I do know that the courts no longer rule according to law, but instead according to "perception" and "public opinion"... so whether its legal or not... a judge will still convict you.

The more this country heads down the path of socialism the more what they say and do are opposites.

Nowadays, it's hard to find an honest person (outside of the Church). Most of my co-workers believe that you can't go through life without a well-placed white-lie here or there. They are wrong... but they don't see it.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 13th, 2010, 7:03 pm
by TonyOlsen
KalelIsbell wrote:are we still talking about traffic laws??? :lol:
LOL :lol:

No...

By mentioning the word "Libertarian", the hair on the back of the Socialists necks stood on end and a conversation ensued.

I'm a Libertarian, Freeman, Classical Liberal, Modern Conservative, Constitutionalist.

I'm anti-Socialist.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 14th, 2010, 4:58 am
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote: I'm anti-Socialist.
You mean except for having a Social Security Number and paying FICA and the other Marxist Income taxes?

And of course you have driver's license so your right to travel is just a privilege?

I can only guess you also attended Public schools? (Tenth Plank?)

Do you have any other direct ties to 42 USC section 666 (a)(13)(A)?

Now me...I am a millionaire. I dont have millions of anything but if saying it makes it so what the heck.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 15th, 2010, 8:13 am
by TonyOlsen
Wiikwajio wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote: I'm anti-Socialist.
You mean except for having a Social Security Number and paying FICA and the other Marxist Income taxes?

And of course you have driver's license so your right to travel is just a privilege?

I can only guess you also attended Public schools? (Tenth Plank?)

Do you have any other direct ties to 42 USC section 666 (a)(13)(A)?

Now me...I am a millionaire. I dont have millions of anything but if saying it makes it so what the heck.
You never responded to what I posted earlier: If someone robs you at gun-point, and you comply with his orders under threat of death... does that mean that you support and agree with the robber's intentions?

Of course not! I comply with Socialism's laws, which are forced upon me at the end of a gun barrel, but that does NOT mean that I support them.

(Yes, yes, I know that you feel that all of the socialism stuff is optional and that Government really isn't putting people in jail for going against it... let's just say that your arguments on this point haven't been persuasive yet).

I'm Anti-Socialist.

My anti-socialist stance is not up for vote.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 15th, 2010, 11:57 pm
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote: I'm anti-Socialist.
You mean except for having a Social Security Number and paying FICA and the other Marxist Income taxes?

And of course you have driver's license so your right to travel is just a privilege?

I can only guess you also attended Public schools? (Tenth Plank?)

Do you have any other direct ties to 42 USC section 666 (a)(13)(A)?

Now me...I am a millionaire. I dont have millions of anything but if saying it makes it so what the heck.
You never responded to what I posted earlier: If someone robs you at gun-point, and you comply with his orders under threat of death... does that mean that you support and agree with the robber's intentions?
If you can fight back with a good chance of winning then and you do not then you volunteered and you support his intentions. Read the Declaration of Taking Up Arms by the 1775 AD Congress. They risked their lives, fortunes and sacred honor and said that if they did not it would be "voluntary slavery." That is right "voluntary." And they had the british guns to their head and they said no.

The government is not putting a gun to your head but even if they do you have a choice just like the Christians in Rome had a choice. If a robber told you to rape your daughter or die, what would you do? You have a choice. Fight back or be a voluntary socialist slave.
TonyOlsen wrote:Of course not! I comply with Socialism's laws, which are forced upon me at the end of a gun barrel, but that does NOT mean that I support them.
What Socialist laws do you comply with? Can you cite the law? You have not even taken the time to know the socialist laws you claim you are against. You just presume there are laws. You have not even read them.

If you have then give me a list of the Socialist laws you comply with. For example do you comply with 42 USC, Sec. 666(a)(13)(A)? Have you determined if the Religious Freedom Restoration Act makes you exempt? In other words are you liable or are you exempt? How would you know?

Do you file a 1040 tax return? What law requires you to file? What law makes you a person liable? Do you just assume you are a person liable and have income in dollars? What is a dollar? Maybe this will help. http://sedm.org/Exhibits/EX06.006.pdf

What law requires you to apply for a Social Security Number? What law requires you to keep it? What law requires you to use it Does the RFRA give you an exemptions? Why or why not?
TonyOlsen wrote:(Yes, yes, I know that you feel that all of the socialism stuff is optional and that Government really isn't putting people in jail for going against it... let's just say that your arguments on this point haven't been persuasive yet).
I am not in jail. I have never been arrested on IRS issues. I have never been audited or questioned by the Department of Justice. They put people in jail that do not use the laws God gave us to fight with. I use those laws. I won in court on Friday of last week. I win a lot. Don't you? Why not? I have given myself an opportunity for a very large monetary settlement against Cops and the DAs that violated my rights so that I can fight back against tyranny. You see I don't just say I am anti-socialist, I prove I am be not being a Socialist by my fruit not just my words.

If you say you are not a diver and then you go to a swimming pool and dive every day it means you are a diver and just claim you are not a diver. If you say you are not a hunter and then you take your rifle out and shoot animals then you are a hunter no matter what you claim. When you comply to socialist programs that are voluntary then you are a socialist even if you claim you are not a socialist.
TonyOlsen wrote:I'm Anti-Socialist.

My anti-socialist stance is not up for vote.
But it is up for others to prove what you are by your fruit. I am to know you by your fruit, not your claims or you words. Your fruits are the fruits of Gadianton because your fruits are the fruits of Socialism.

If you want to fight I know how. If you want to be a Socialist then don't ask me how I do it.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 18th, 2010, 7:54 pm
by TonyOlsen
Wiikwajio wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote:...

You never responded to what I posted earlier: If someone robs you at gun-point, and you comply with his orders under threat of death... does that mean that you support and agree with the robber's intentions?
If you can fight back with a good chance of winning then and you do not then you volunteered and you support his intentions. Read the Declaration of Taking Up Arms by the 1775 AD Congress. They risked their lives, fortunes and sacred honor and said that if they did not it would be "voluntary slavery." That is right "voluntary." And they had the british guns to their head and they said no.

The government is not putting a gun to your head but even if they do you have a choice just like the Christians in Rome had a choice. If a robber told you to rape your daughter or die, what would you do? You have a choice. Fight back or be a voluntary socialist slave.
TonyOlsen wrote:Of course not! I comply with Socialism's laws, which are forced upon me at the end of a gun barrel, but that does NOT mean that I support them.
What Socialist laws do you comply with? Can you cite the law? You have not even taken the time to know the socialist laws you claim you are against. You just presume there are laws. You have not even read them.

If you have then give me a list of the Socialist laws you comply with. For example do you comply with 42 USC, Sec. 666(a)(13)(A)? Have you determined if the Religious Freedom Restoration Act makes you exempt? In other words are you liable or are you exempt? How would you know?

Do you file a 1040 tax return? What law requires you to file? What law makes you a person liable? Do you just assume you are a person liable and have income in dollars? What is a dollar? Maybe this will help. http://sedm.org/Exhibits/EX06.006.pdf

What law requires you to apply for a Social Security Number? What law requires you to keep it? What law requires you to use it Does the RFRA give you an exemptions? Why or why not?
TonyOlsen wrote:(Yes, yes, I know that you feel that all of the socialism stuff is optional and that Government really isn't putting people in jail for going against it... let's just say that your arguments on this point haven't been persuasive yet).
I am not in jail. I have never been arrested on IRS issues. I have never been audited or questioned by the Department of Justice. They put people in jail that do not use the laws God gave us to fight with. I use those laws. I won in court on Friday of last week. I win a lot. Don't you? Why not? I have given myself an opportunity for a very large monetary settlement against Cops and the DAs that violated my rights so that I can fight back against tyranny. You see I don't just say I am anti-socialist, I prove I am be not being a Socialist by my fruit not just my words.

If you say you are not a diver and then you go to a swimming pool and dive every day it means you are a diver and just claim you are not a diver. If you say you are not a hunter and then you take your rifle out and shoot animals then you are a hunter no matter what you claim. When you comply to socialist programs that are voluntary then you are a socialist even if you claim you are not a socialist.
TonyOlsen wrote:I'm Anti-Socialist.

My anti-socialist stance is not up for vote.
But it is up for others to prove what you are by your fruit. I am to know you by your fruit, not your claims or you words. Your fruits are the fruits of Gadianton because your fruits are the fruits of Socialism.

If you want to fight I know how. If you want to be a Socialist then don't ask me how I do it.
What does president Monson do? Do you consider him a Socialist?

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 7:57 am
by Henmasher
What about the church as a whole....are they a socialist organization?

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 5:19 pm
by TonyOlsen
Henmasher wrote:What about the church as a whole....are they a socialist organization?
Good point. :D

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 20th, 2010, 11:38 pm
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:What about the church as a whole....are they a socialist organization?
Good point. :D
No they are not Socialist. Being a member is 100% voluntary. You can walk away at any time. You will not be threatened with arrest or lawsuit.

I look forward to any evidence that may demonstrate that the following statements are in error or that the living prophet has countermanded them.

President Marion G. Romney SOCIALISM AND THE UNITED ORDER COMPARED:

"The 'communist manifesto' drafted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, for the Communist League . . . in . . . 1848 is generally regarded as the starting point of modern socialism (Ibid.).

"No, socialism is not the United Order. Distinguishing between these two systems need be no more difficult than solving the problem of the farmer who could not tell one of his horses from the other. They weighed the same, pulled the same load, ran at the same speed; from the looks of their teeth they were the same age. Finally, as a last resort, he measured them, and, sure enough, the white horse was six hands higher than the black one.

"Now, not forgetting our duty to eschew socialism and support the just and holy principles of the Constitution, as directed by the Lord, I shall conclude these remarks with a few comments concerning what we should do about the United Order."

Ezra Taft Benson, 1960, So Shall Ye Reap:

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie 1985, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH, p. 54

Sad as it may be, almost the entire history of mankind is an account of false worship, false gods, and all the ills that attend such a course. Communism is in reality a form of religion in which men deny the God of the Bible and worship the gods of compulsion and power and war. Philosophy in all its forms and varieties is a way of worship. It is an attempt by reason and without revelation to explain existence, ethical principles in general, and the whence, why, and whither of life.

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure, p. 93

As Americans, we have marched a long way down the soul-destroying road of socialism, atheism, and totalitarianism. It is the price we pay when we turn away from God and turn to government to do everything for us. It is the formula by which nations become enslaved by their own leaders.
As England's Lord Acton so succinctly put it, "Power tends to corrupt—and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Essays on Freedom and Power, p. 364.)
Increasing numbers of Americans are subscribing to the myth that you can get something for nothing—as long as the government is footing the bill. In fact, they believe it is the duty of government to take care of them, from the womb to the tomb.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. Everything we get from the government, we pay for in debilitating taxes. Everything the government gives to the people, it must first take from the people. This is something few Americans appear to understand.

Marion G. Romney, 1977, Learning For The Eternities, p. 2

Three of the major devices that have led men to reject the truth concerning God have been and still are (1) apostate Christianity, (2) the theory of biological evolution, and (3) communism.


President Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve, A Witness and a Warning

But whenever the God of heaven reveals His gospel to mankind, Satan, the archenemy to Christ, introduces a counterfeit.

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

President Marion G. Romney, in the First Presidency Message in the September 1979 Ensign, wrote: “Communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the gospel plan, and … it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. By the extent to which we tolerate it, accommodate ourselves to it, permit ourselves to be encircled by its tentacles and drawn to it, to that extent we forfeit the protection of the God of this land” (p. 5).

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 24th, 2010, 6:50 pm
by TonyOlsen
Wiikwajio wrote:
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:What about the church as a whole....are they a socialist organization?
Good point. :D
No they are not Socialist. Being a member is 100% voluntary. You can walk away at any time. You will not be threatened with arrest or lawsuit.

I look forward to any evidence that may demonstrate that the following statements are in error or that the living prophet has countermanded them.

President Marion G. Romney SOCIALISM AND THE UNITED ORDER COMPARED:

"The 'communist manifesto' drafted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, for the Communist League . . . in . . . 1848 is generally regarded as the starting point of modern socialism (Ibid.).

"No, socialism is not the United Order. Distinguishing between these two systems need be no more difficult than solving the problem of the farmer who could not tell one of his horses from the other. They weighed the same, pulled the same load, ran at the same speed; from the looks of their teeth they were the same age. Finally, as a last resort, he measured them, and, sure enough, the white horse was six hands higher than the black one.

"Now, not forgetting our duty to eschew socialism and support the just and holy principles of the Constitution, as directed by the Lord, I shall conclude these remarks with a few comments concerning what we should do about the United Order."

Ezra Taft Benson, 1960, So Shall Ye Reap:

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie 1985, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH, p. 54

Sad as it may be, almost the entire history of mankind is an account of false worship, false gods, and all the ills that attend such a course. Communism is in reality a form of religion in which men deny the God of the Bible and worship the gods of compulsion and power and war. Philosophy in all its forms and varieties is a way of worship. It is an attempt by reason and without revelation to explain existence, ethical principles in general, and the whence, why, and whither of life.

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure, p. 93

As Americans, we have marched a long way down the soul-destroying road of socialism, atheism, and totalitarianism. It is the price we pay when we turn away from God and turn to government to do everything for us. It is the formula by which nations become enslaved by their own leaders.
As England's Lord Acton so succinctly put it, "Power tends to corrupt—and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Essays on Freedom and Power, p. 364.)
Increasing numbers of Americans are subscribing to the myth that you can get something for nothing—as long as the government is footing the bill. In fact, they believe it is the duty of government to take care of them, from the womb to the tomb.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. Everything we get from the government, we pay for in debilitating taxes. Everything the government gives to the people, it must first take from the people. This is something few Americans appear to understand.

Marion G. Romney, 1977, Learning For The Eternities, p. 2

Three of the major devices that have led men to reject the truth concerning God have been and still are (1) apostate Christianity, (2) the theory of biological evolution, and (3) communism.


President Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve, A Witness and a Warning

But whenever the God of heaven reveals His gospel to mankind, Satan, the archenemy to Christ, introduces a counterfeit.

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

President Marion G. Romney, in the First Presidency Message in the September 1979 Ensign, wrote: “Communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the gospel plan, and … it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. By the extent to which we tolerate it, accommodate ourselves to it, permit ourselves to be encircled by its tentacles and drawn to it, to that extent we forfeit the protection of the God of this land” (p. 5).
Yes, you've correctly shown the church leadership's unified stance against Socialism.

What you failed to do, however, is address the question. You claim that paying taxes, and abiding by many of the current laws, or even "making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness" is evil. We asked if the Church leadership pays their taxes, abides by current laws, and makes friends with the mammon of unrighteousness...

...and you side-stepped the question.

...which answers the question none-the-less.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 24th, 2010, 10:26 pm
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:
Henmasher wrote:What about the church as a whole....are they a socialist organization?
Good point. :D
Not really.

LDS Doctrine on Socialism/Communism as religions

The following are selected quotes concerning the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints concerning socialism, communism, fascism, nazism, etc. are religions and that they are the counterfeit doctrine of Satan established for the purpose of conflicting with Christ’s work.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH, p. 626, 1985

One of the surest and most certain signs of the times is the near-omnipresence of false prophets. "There shall also arise . . . false prophets," saith the holy word. (JS-M 1:22.) It is now almost as though every fool or near-fool, and every person filled with self-conceit and a desire to be in the spotlight of adulation, fancies himself a prophet of religion or politics, or what have you. On every hand there are those who suppose they know how to save society, to save nations, to save souls. They preach all sorts of gospels—a social gospel; a racial gospel; a gospel of freedom or communism, of socialism or free enterprise, of military preparedness or reliance upon the wispy promises of foreign foes; a gospel of salvation by grace alone, or of this or that doctrine.

David O. McKay, Conference Report, April 9, 1966, pp. 109-10. Italics in original.

The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth. . . .
The entire concept and philosophy of Communism is diametrically opposed to everything for which the Church stands—belief in Deity, belief in the dignity and eternal nature of man, and the application of the gospel to efforts for peace in the world. Communism is militantly atheistic and is committed to the destruction of faith wherever it may be found.
The Russian Commissar of Education wrote: "We must hate Christians and Christianity. Even the best of them must be considered our worst enemies. Christian love is an obstacle to the development of the revolution. Down with love for one's neighbor. What we want is hate. Only then shall we conquer the universe."
On the other hand, the gospel teaches the existence of God as our Eternal and Heavenly Father and declares: ". . . him only shalt thou serve." (Matt. 4:10.)
Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state, to which he must look for sustenance and religion. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency…

Ezra Taft Benson, 1960, So Shall Ye Reap

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie 1985, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH, p. 54

Sad as it may be, almost the entire history of mankind is an account of false worship, false gods, and all the ills that attend such a course. Communism is in reality a form of religion in which men deny the God of the Bible and worship the gods of compulsion and power and war. Philosophy in all its forms and varieties is a way of worship. It is an attempt by reason and without revelation to explain existence, ethical principles in general, and the whence, why, and whither of life.

Boyd K. Packer, 1975, Teach Ye Diligently, p. 225

Atheism, like theism, is divided into many sects: communism, agnosticism, skepticism, humanism, pragmatism, and others.
The atheist proclaims his own dishonesty in accepting pay to teach psychology, sociology, history, or English, while he is indeed preaching his atheistic religious philosophy to his students.

Apostle David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 304-305

Communist leaders have steadily insisted that communism cannot live in just one country. Just as we fought to make 'the world safe for democracy,' so they are fighting to make the world safe for communism. They are fighting this fight today. Every country must become communistic, according to their idea. So they have sent out missionaries…
Do not let advocates of communism mislead you in their attempt to denounce capitalism. Fundamental in the belief and promulgation of communism is the denial of the existence of God and the desire to substitute for the belief confidence in the state. The state is not an organization to suppress people. The state should have no power but that which the people give it; and when the state becomes a director, a controller of the individual, it becomes despotism; and human nature has fought that since man was created; and man will continue to fight that false ideal.
Individual freedom is innate in the human soul. God has given us our free agency, and next to life itself that is our greatest gift from heaven, and you red-blooded men and women know that is true because of your own love of liberty.

Stephen L Richards, 1955

There are some who may regard the acknowledgment of spiritual power as a stigma of weakness, that the humility which is essential to the acceptance of divine power is incompatible with strength of manhood and self-determination. That was in large measure the doctrine of Hitler and is today the philosophy of communism. I hope there are not many who adopt such a philosophy of life.
Now I know that there are many in Christian nations and many in prominent places who accede to this taboo on religion in the consideration of national and world affairs. They seem to think that they can fight aggressive, atheistic communism without uttering a word in defense and exposition of divinely given concepts, and without even seeking divine aid in the preservation of divine principles for the race.

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure, p. 93

As Americans, we have marched a long way down the soul-destroying road of socialism, atheism, and totalitarianism. It is the price we pay when we turn away from God and turn to government to do everything for us. It is the formula by which nations become enslaved by their own leaders.
As England's Lord Acton so succinctly put it, "Power tends to corrupt—and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Essays on Freedom and Power, p. 364.)
Increasing numbers of Americans are subscribing to the myth that you can get something for nothing—as long as the government is footing the bill. In fact, they believe it is the duty of government to take care of them, from the womb to the tomb.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. Everything we get from the government, we pay for in debilitating taxes. Everything the government gives to the people, it must first take from the people. This is something few Americans appear to understand.

(This Nation Shall Endure, p. 94)

But as those affluent years slipped by, voices were heard in the land, singing the siren songs of socialism. And many Americans tapped their feet to the beat of the music. Politicians were already promising something for nothing, that elusive free lunch. Thus, gradually the people let the government infringe upon their precious freedoms, and the preliminary signs of decay began to appear in our young republic.

Marion G. Romney, 1977, Learning For The Eternities, p. 2

Three of the major devices that have led men to reject the truth concerning God have been and still are (1) apostate Christianity, (2) the theory of biological evolution, and (3) communism.

President Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve, A Witness and a Warning

But whenever the God of heaven reveals His gospel to mankind, Satan, the archenemy to Christ, introduces a counterfeit.

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

President Marion G. Romney, in the First Presidency Message in the September 1979 Ensign, wrote: “Communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the gospel plan, and … it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. By the extent to which we tolerate it, accommodate ourselves to it, permit ourselves to be encircled by its tentacles and drawn to it, to that extent we forfeit the protection of the God of this land” (p. 5).


President Marion G. Romney Second Counselor in the First Presidency, The Message: America’s Promise, New Era, Mar 1980, p.4
In distinguishing communism from the United Order, President David O. McKay said that communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the gospel plan, and that it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. By the extent to which we tolerate it, accommodate ourselves to it, permit ourselves to be encircled by its tentacles and drawn to it, to that extent we forfeit the protection of the God of this land.
Relying on that part of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” the United States Supreme Court has ruled against Bible reading and prayer in public schools. By so doing, said President David O. McKay, “the Supreme Court of the United States severs the connecting cord between the public schools of the United States and the source of divine intelligence, the Creator himself,” who, of course, is the God of this land (Relief Society Magazine, Dec. 1962, p. 878).
Now, of course, we all believe and wholeheartedly support the separation of church and state; but we must not let this wresting of the First Amendment, nor communism, nor atheism, nor any other anti-Christ influence, weaken our conviction that Jesus Christ is the God of this land nor diminish our determination to obey his laws.
First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942
False Political Isms
We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. These revolutionists are using a technique that is as old as the human race—a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery and then enslave them.
They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive. Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs," (D&C 51:3) and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.

Apostle Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Point of Safe Return,” Ensign, May 2007, 99–101

The gift of the Atonement of Jesus Christ provides us at all times and at all places with the blessings of repentance and forgiveness.
Satan tries to counterfeit the work of God, and by doing this he may deceive many. To make us lose hope, feel miserable like himself, and believe that we are beyond forgiveness, Satan might even misuse words from the scriptures that emphasize the justice of God, in order to imply that there is no mercy.

James E. Faust, Second Counselor in the First Presidency , “The Forces That Will Save Us,” Liahona, Jan 2007, 2–7

Some of Satan’s most appealing lines are “Everyone does it”; “If it doesn’t hurt anybody else, it’s all right”; “If you feel all right about it, it’s OK”; or “It’s the ‘in’ thing to do.” These subtle entreaties make Satan the great imitator, the master deceiver, the arch counterfeiter, and the great forger.
Agency—Our Alternative: Our agency, given us through the plan of our Father, is the great alternative to Satan’s plan of force. With this sublime gift, we can grow, improve, progress, and seek perfection. Without agency, none of us could grow and develop by learning from our mistakes and errors and those of others.

Elder James E. Faust of the Quorum of the Twelve, “A New Civil Religion,” Ensign, Oct. 1992, 69A New Civil Religion,

There seems to be developing a new civil religion. The civil religion I refer to is a secular religion. It has no moral absolutes. It is nondenominational. It is nontheistic. It is politically focused. It is antagonistic to religion. It rejects the historic religious traditions of America. It feels strange. If this trend continues, nonbelief will be more honored than belief. While all beliefs must be protected, are atheism, agnosticism, cynicism, and moral relativism to be more safeguarded and valued than Christianity, Judaism, and the tenets of Islam, which hold that there is a Supreme Being and that mortals are accountable to him? If so, this would, in my opinion, place America in great moral jeopardy.
For those who believe in God, this new civil religion fosters some of the same concerns as the state religions that prompted our forefathers to escape to the New World. Nonbelief is becoming more sponsored in the body politic than belief.
Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall,” Liahona, May 1995, 10
Elder Marion G. Romney of the Quorum of the Twelve taught: “Latter-day Saints know that there is a God. With like certainty, they know that Satan lives, that he is a powerful personage of spirit, the archenemy of God, of man, and of righteousness” (Ensign, June 1971, page 35). President Joseph F. Smith described one of Satan’s methods: “Satan is a skillful imitator, and as genuine gospel truth is given the world in ever-increasing abundance, so he spreads the counterfeit coin of false doctrine” (ibid., page 36).
Elder Bernard P. Brockbank Assistant to the Council of the Twelve, “Hearken Unto the Voice of God,” Ensign, May 1974, 11
President Harold B. Lee said, “Today you are witnessing the fulfillment [of a prophecy concerning Satan’s dominion]. Today is the day when the devil has power over his own dominion.” (Harold B. Lee, Decisions for Successful Living, Deseret Book Co., 1973, p. 221.) That is a prophetic statement from a prophet of God. He also said, “[Satan] is the master of deceit, adulteration and counterfeit.
Elder Marion G. Romney, Of the Council of the Twelve, “Satan—The Great Deceiver,” Ensign, Jun 1971, 35
We know that there is available to each of us the gift of the Holy Ghost—the power of revelation which embraces the gift of discernment by which we may unerringly detect the devil and the counterfeits he is so successfully foisting upon this gullible generation. Our course is clear and certain. It is to strictly obey the commandments of the Lord, as they are recorded in the scriptures and as they are being given by the living prophets.
Socialism
President Ezra Taft Benson President of the Council of the Twelve “Jesus Christ—Gifts and Expectations,” New Era, May 1975, 16
If we really did our homework and approached the Book of Mormon doctrinally, we could expose the errors and find the truths to combat many of the current false theories and philosophies of men, including socialism, humanism, organic evolution, and others.

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure

We have accepted a frightening degree of socialism in our country. The question is, how much? The amount of freedom depends upon the amount of federal control and spending. A good measurement is to determine the amount, or percentage, of income of the people that is taken over and spent by the state.

President Marion G. Romney SOCIALISM AND THE UNITED ORDER COMPARED

The "communist manifesto" drafted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, for the Communist League . . . in . . . 1848 is generally regarded as the starting point of modern socialism (Ibid.).

No, socialism is not the United Order. Distinguishing between these two systems need be no more difficult than solving the problem of the farmer who could not tell one of his horses from the other. They weighed the same, pulled the same load, ran at the same speed; from the looks of their teeth they were the same age. Finally, as a last resort, he measured them, and, sure enough, the white horse was six hands higher than the black one.

Now, not forgetting our duty to eschew socialism and support the just and holy principles of the Constitution, as directed by the Lord, I shall conclude these remarks with a few comments concerning what we should do about the United Order.

David O. McKay

Under Communism you lose your liberties immediately and perhaps your life. Under Socialism, you lose your liberties a little more slowly but just as surely.

The Prophet John Taylor on Socialism.
I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks, I said I did not believe the doctrine.
Communism
Message from the First Presidency, Improvement Era, August 1936, p. 488.
Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to false ideologies such as socialism and communism. The official Church position on communism remains unchanged since it was first promulgated in 1936: "We call upon all Church members completely to eschew Communism. The safety of our divinely inspired Constitutional government and the welfare of our Church imperatively demand that Communism shall have no place in America."

David O. McKay, Selections from the Discourses of David O. McKay (Gospel Ideals, p. 273)

THE NEW BARBARISM. "During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism and made strange alliances through which we have become involved in almost continuous hot and cold wars over the whole of the earth. In this retreat from freedom the voices of protesting citizens have been drowned by raucous shouts of intolerance and abuse from those who led the retreat and their millions of gullible youth, who are marching merrily to their doom, carrying banners on which are emblazoned such intriguing and misapplied labels as social justice, equality, reform, patriotism, social welfare.

Ezra Taft Benson

We must keep the people informed that collectivism, another word for socialism, is a part of the communist strategy. Communism is essentially socialism.

David O. McKay, General Conference, October 1951, pp. 10-11.

At heart communism is atheistic, and fascism is equally antagonistic to freedom and to other Christian principles—even denying the divinity of Jesus Christ and the existence of God.

David O. McKay
A ruthless dialectical battle is being waged against the Christian way of life, against political liberty, against individual freedom, and it is being waged in the name of Freedom. Black becomes White; Tyranny becomes Freedom; The Forced Labor Camp stands for Liberty; The Slave State is represented as Democracy. This is the deadly challenge of Communism.
President Ezra Taft Benson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles “Prepare Yourself for the Great Day of the Lord,” New Era, May 1982, 44
The Church is prospering and growing. Yet in undiminished fury, and with an anxiety that his time is short—and it is—Satan, that great adversary to all men, is attempting to destroy all we hold dear. The greatest system of slavery ever devised by the forces of evil—communism—has been imposed on over one billion of the earth’s inhabitants. We constantly hear or read of wars and rumors of wars. Atheism, agnosticism, immorality, and dishonesty are flaunted in our society.

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 232 – 233

Religion and the free exercise thereof, the right to worship God according to one's own conscience—how precious and treasured a boon it is. How necessary that it be safeguarded. Established religion becomes the guardian of the conscience of the people, the teacher of moral values, the defender of belief in the Almighty, the bridge between God and man. No people will live for long in freedom without it. The history of communism, whose founding father declared religion to be the opiate of the people, speaks with harshness and suffering concerning this basic matter.
Congress shall not abridge "the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
The history of tyrants is a history of the muzzling of free expression and the denial of assembly. ("The Bill of Rights," Bonneville International Corporation "Gathering of Eagles," June 20, 1991.)

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 407

The voices I hear are persuasive, seductive, fascinating, and confusing. Speaking across the earth, they are part of a mighty battle that is being waged for the minds of men. They are aimed at persuasion in political philosophy. There are voices of democracy competing with voices of communism, and each is winning converts according to the discernment and the judgment of listeners. The stakes are high, the weapons are sophisticated, the methods are clever.

Elder John A. Widtsoe, Evidences And Reconciliations

Modern communism, fascism, nazism, socialism, and other related systems, are all the same in essential theory. They oppose religion, except as they themselves claim to be revelations, and they reject Christian morality. They prohibit free speech and action; eliminate private ownership and initiative; hold without exception the state above the individual; regiment the people; allow the strong to dominate the weak; they take government out of the hands of the governed, and place it in the hands of a self-appointed, selfish, self-styled, super-group, and they culminate in dictatorships. The free agent has no place in their systems. Their claim that they believe in human equality, as shown by their tyrannical behavior, is false. Force and terrorism are their weapons. All that makes for human security and happiness is destroyed.

Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1972

[A]s a nation we ignored the warning signals which preceded the great depression; we were also unready to face the onrushing realities of Fascism and Communism—whereas today many are blind to the dangers of self-oppression, the chains we put on ourselves, which is the real tyranny of our time.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, THE MILLENNIAL MESSIAH,1982, 66

We hear the voice of one false Christ, echoing from the camps of communism, expounding the devil-devised declaration that religion is the opiate of the people. We hear another such voice when races alien to Israel acclaim that the one God has no need for a Son to mediate between himself and fallen man.
Next Moroni turns the key so that all who have ears to hear can understand what the secret combination is and can identify those who build it up. "For it cometh to pass," he says, "that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries." This is a worldwide conspiracy. It is now entrenched in many nations, and it seeks dominion over all nations. It is Godless, atheistic, and operates by compulsion. It is communism. "And it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning."

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure

We must keep the people informed that collectivism, another word for socialism, is a part of the communist strategy. Communism is essentially socialism.

David O. McKay, Selections from the Discourses of David O. McKay, 1952

Latter-day Saints should have nothing to do with secret combinations and groups antagonistic to the constitutional law of the land, which the Lord "suffered to be established," and which "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh according to just and holy principles."
Fundamental in the belief and promulgation of communism is the denial of the existence of God and the desire to substitute for the belief confidence in the state. The state is not an organization to suppress people. The state should have no power but that which the people give it; and when the state becomes a director, a controller of the individual, it becomes despotism; and human nature has fought that since man was created; and man will continue to fight that false ideal.
Individual freedom is innate in the human soul. God has given us our free agency, and next to life itself that is our greatest gift from heaven, and you red-blooded men and women know that is true because of your own love of liberty.

Fascism

Joseph Fielding Smith,1936, The Progress of Man, p. 397


On the one side the direction which is to make an end of all nations, is through communism; on the other side it is being reached through Fascism and Nazism. While these two forces are apparently arrayed against each other, nevertheless the goal to be reached by them eventually is the same.

Ezra Taft Benson, 1960, So Shall Ye Reap

Can communism, socialism, fascism, the so-called welfare state, or any other coercive system provide these priceless blessings which flow to us as a part of our American way of life? The common denominator of all these systems is the curtailment of individual liberty.

David O. McKay, General Conference, October 1951, pp. 10-11.

At heart communism is atheistic, and fascism is equally antagonistic to freedom and to other Christian principles—even denying the divinity of Jesus Christ and the existence of God.


Social Security

Ezra Taft Benson, This Nation Shall Endure

We have accepted a frightening degree of socialism in our country. The question is, how much? The amount of freedom depends upon the amount of federal control and spending. A good measurement is to determine the amount, or percentage, of income of the people that is taken over and spent by the state. In Russia, the individual works almost wholly for the state, leaving little for his own welfare. Scandinavia takes about 65 to 70 percent of the income of the people, England some 60 percent. The United States is now approximately 44 percent.
The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this equality is through so-called transfer payments. This is a term that simply means that the federal government collects from one income group and transfers payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of Social Security benefits, housing subsidies, Medicaid, food stamps, to name a few.
Today, total cost of such programs exceeds $150 billion dollars. That represents about 42 percent of the total of all government federal spending, or about one dollar out of every seven dollars of personal income. (See U.S. News and World Report, August 4, 1975, pp. 32-33.)
Our present Social Security program has been going in the hole at the rate of $12 billion a year. Recognizing that the present program will be insolvent by 1985, President Carter has now recommended that Social Security be funded out of the general tax funds. Charges were made in the last election campaign that the Social Security program was going bankrupt. These charges were denied. Now the truth is out. The President's recommendation must be regarded as an admission of the failure of the present system and as a calculated policy to take this country into full-scale socialism.
Our major danger is that we are currently—and have been for forty years—transferring responsibility from the individual, local, and state governments to the federal government.

President Heber J. Grant, Gerenal Conference October, 1936: 13.

“We have on, at the present time, a great political campaign (1936), and I want to say to the Saints that I hope they will not allow their political affiliations, their regard for political affairs, to cause feelings of ill-will towards one another. I have had some of the most insulting letters that ever came to me, condemning me for not being in favor of the Townsend Plan (Social Security), and that I must be ignorant of the plan. I am not ignorant of the plan. I have not read every word of it, but I have asked one of my secretaries to read every word of the plan and to give me the important points, and to my mind it is in direct opposition to everything I have quoted from Brigham Young and from the revelations of the Lord. The idea of allowing every man and woman who has reached the age of sixty years and wishes to retire from working to get two hundred dollars a month from the government! There is nothing truer than Brigham Young's statement, that we should give nothing to people, unless they are not able to work, without requiring them to do something for it.

Ezra Taft Benson 1960, So Shall Ye Reap

May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men.


Ezra Taft Benson, CR, April 1962, p.105-106

To protect this base we must protect the soul of America -- we must return to a love and respect for the basic spiritual concepts upon which this nation has been established. We must study the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers.
Yes, we must protect the Lord's base of operations by moving away from unsound economic policies which encourage creeping socialism and its companion, insidious, atheistic communism. If we are to protect this important base we must as a nation live within our means, balance our budgets, and pay our debts. We must establish sound monetary policies and take needed steps to compete in world markets.

Secular Religion


Elder Boyd K. Packer, Official Report of the 164th Annual General Conference April, 1994

Satan's attacks on the family: The ultimate purpose of the adversary, who has "great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time," (1) is to disrupt, disturb, and destroy the home and the family. Like a ship without a rudder, without a compass, we drift from the family values which have anchored us in the past. Now we are caught in a current so strong that unless we correct our course, civilization as we know it will surely be wrecked to pieces. Moral values are being neglected and prayer expelled from public schools on the pretext that moral teaching belongs to religion. At the same time, atheism, the secular religion, is admitted to class, and our youngsters are proselyted to a conduct without morality.

Bruce R McConkie, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH Deseret Book Company 1985,

Thus, as we have seen, civil control of religion is Lucifer's way of enforcing an enduring state of apostasy and of darkness upon all who are subject to such control. Thus also, as long as government controls our way of worship, Lucifer is in control, and we have no hope except to await the day when the chains will be broken and the bondage will cease.

10. Atheism, a Fatal Belief—"During the Reign of Terror, the French were declared by the National Assembly to be a nation of atheists; but a brief experience convinced them that a nation of atheists could not long exist. Robespierre then 'proclaimed in the convention, that belief in the existence of God was necessary to those principles of virtue and morality upon which the republic was founded; and on the 7th of May [1794], the national representatives, who had so lately prostrated themselves before the Goddess of Reason, voted by acclamation that the French people acknowledged the existence of the Supreme Being, and the immortality of the soul.'"—Students' France, 27, 6.

Elder Boyd K Packer, TEACH YE DILIGENTLY,1975

The Religion of Atheism
Some years ago in the United States a plaintiff prospered in her grievance concerning the saying of prayers in public schools. The practice was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. That decision was partial to one ideology, for the effect, regardless of the intent, was to offer great encouragement to those who would erase from our society every trace of reference to the Almighty.
There is a crying need for the identification of atheism for what it is, and that is, a religion albeit a negative one. Atheism is a religious expression; it is one extreme end of religious philosophy.
One group of so-called believers in God teach in substance that He is man-made. That is, they admit, with tongues in cheeks, that there is a God. But, in the same breath, they explain that God is always a product of the human mind. Early peoples, they say, worshipped tribal Gods, of stock and stone. As the people developed, their conceptions changed, until, in time, God became a Being of spirit. This simply means that God is made by man, and in the image of man; instead of man being made in the image of God. Such colossal self-sufficiency is of the impudent order of King Canute defying the tides of the ocean. The notion of a man-made God is a variation of atheism.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 24th, 2010, 11:01 pm
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:[

Yes, you've correctly shown the church leadership's unified stance against Socialism.

What you failed to do, however, is address the question. You claim that paying taxes, and abiding by many of the current laws, or even "making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness" is evil. We asked if the Church leadership pays their taxes, abides by current laws, and makes friends with the mammon of unrighteousness...

...and you side-stepped the question.

...which answers the question none-the-less.
You continue to fail to quote the laws I do not abide by. Why?

If a man that is a federal employee files a tax "return" and "returns" a part of his income to the federal government that does not mean that I am a person liable. If the Prophet pays a federal tax required to be paid by corporate officers and I am not a corporate officer would that mean I was required to file a return? Why?

If you are in Iowa do you have to file a California Income Tax Return? Why Not? is it not the law of California?

Do you know the difference between a US citizen and a Citizen of the United States of America and an American citizen and a U.S. National?

Which one has to file an income tax return? You mean you do not know? Why?

You keep claiming, without actually making the statement, that the Apostles file and therefore, somehow believe that everyone is like them or in the same financial position.

Are you a corporate officer?

Do you live in Utah?

Do you have a a Social Security number?

Are people that have Social Security NUmbers Federal personnel according to Title 5?

Do you know what Title 5 says about federal retirement program members?

Do you take Income Tax deductions? Do the Apostles? Do the Prophets?

Is it patriotic to pay more than is required by law?

If you have an income of $18,000 a year and you are married and a US citizen do you have to file a tax return?

If you receive your income in silver dollars minted since 1986 and are paid $18,000 and are married and are a US citizen are you required to file a return?

Do you know what a dollar is according to Congress? Do you know the difference between a dollar and Federal Reserve Note?

How many Federal Reserve Notes can you by for one US silver dollar minted since 1986 AD?

What does the Religious Freedom Restoration Act say the Government must do before it can enforce ANY Federal law?

Does the First Amendment restrict the Federal government from establishing a Civic religion?

How about a Religion of Secularism?

If you determined that the federal government was using tax money to support a Secular religion or a civic religion how would you use that information to go to court to uphold and defend the US Constitution for the domestic enemies from establishing one of those religions?

Would you know what a Civic religion was or how it was defined or if it was unconstitutional?

Is it the Prophets job to save the Constitution or the Elders of Zion's job?

What did God tell the Prophets to do about Income taxes? Has that been revealed as an official statement by the First Presidency or have some apostles just given their opinions on the subject? Are we required to even believe the opinion of an Apostle?

What did the Prophets tell you to do about Socialism?

What about False Isms.

Is the Income tax exactly like the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto?

What were members of the Church commanded to do about Communism?

Has that commanded ever been countermanded?

What did the Prophets tell you about saving the Constitution?

What have the Prophets told you about how you can fight income taxes if you want to?

Have I followed those instructions?

Have the prophets or apostles followed their own instructions on how to fight the income tax?

It it their job to fight for the Constitution or dot they have another calling?

If the Prophets were told by God to pay income taxes because the duty to fight against the Income tax was on the Elders and the Elders were not doing their job even though God gave those Elders the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Flast USSC ruling and the command that they should not be commanded in all things and that they were to fight against Socialism and Marxism even to the death if necessary and the Elders fail to do their job who will be held accountable at the judgement seat of God for not fighting Socialism/Marxism and the establishment of the Civic Religion of Marxism in America?

How about if you ask one question and I answer it and then I ask one question and you answer it?

Would you really want to debate me? Or do you just want to berate me and ridicule my beliefs and practices by making false claims like I do not follow the laws of the land or because I make you feel uncomfortable?

If you want to go head to head in a debate with rules we agree on I would really enjoy that.


That way it would be about the issues with facts and court rulings and citations for ACTUAL laws and not just presumptions and assumptions and false accusations and misinterpretations of the acts of the Apostles. I love law. I love facts. I love the prophets and actually follow them concerning my commanded responsibilities about the Constitution Socialism, Marxism, Communism and even Fascism.

So if you would like to actually debate and use facts and law etc. I will be more than happy to oblige because I have 32 years of experience on these issues and I am honestly tired of your mocking what I do and what I know without ever showing me the laws you claim I am violating.

In fact I was just ask to be a consultant on an criminal IRS case today on the other side of the country. So debating these issues would be nice break for all the research I will be doing.

So how about it? Are you up to it or do you just wish to continue with the libel?

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:42 am
by Henmasher
You keep claiming, without actually making the statement, that the Apostles file and therefore, somehow believe that everyone is like them or in the same financial position.
My question can then be why would the apostles not be doing what seems to be right. With all the church resources why is there not a movement to liberate the church as you have liberated yourself?

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 25th, 2010, 2:13 pm
by Wiikwajio
Henmasher wrote:
You keep claiming, without actually making the statement, that the Apostles file and therefore, somehow believe that everyone is like them or in the same financial position.
My question can then be why would the apostles not be doing what seems to be right. With all the church resources why is there not a movement to liberate the church as you have liberated yourself?

I will answer your second question first by simply quoting E.T. Benson in G.C. listing the excuses as to why LDS do not stand up and fight against Communism/Socialism:

"Seven: And now as the last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively - it is simply this: "Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution." This brings us right back to the scripture I opened with today - to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things." Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

"Years ago Elder Joseph F. Merrill of the Council of the Twelve encouraged the members of the Church to join right-to-work leagues and President Heber J. Grant concurred. For our day President David O. McKay has called communism the greatest threat to the Church, and it is certainly the greatest mortal threat this country has ever faced. What are you doing to fight it?

"Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?"

I am prepared and it is not an indictment I will have to bear. It appears, according to ETB that the Elders, in general are not prepared to create a "movement to liberate the church." Perhaps we need some faithful members that do not lend aid, and sympathy to false isms to step up and start a "movement to liberate the church" but I have been unable to find such men in the Church. The ones I find that know how to free themselves are usually not in the church or the local leadership is attacking them for fighting against tyranny.

Now on to the other question:

US Corporate officers are required to file returns. At least I believe they are but the IRC is very confusing so I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that US corporation officers are required to file returns as that is a privileged occupation.

Are the Apostles US Corporate officers?

Are you?

Federal personnel are also required to file returns under certain circumstances (I think).

Are the Apostles Federal personnel?

Do the Apostles meet those circumstances?

Do you?

What happens to Corporations that are 501(c)(3) as far as their Corporate officers?

What does United States Code Title 5 say about how you become Federal personnel?

What does voluntary compliance mean?

You are among the millions of Americans who comply with the tax law voluntarily. –1992 Form1040 Tax Instruction Booklet

Our tax system is based on individual self-assessment and voluntary compliance. –Mortimer Caplin, IRS Commissioner, 1975 IRS IR Audit Manual

Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint. –United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

Do the Apostles volunteer?

Do you?

Am I required to volunteer because I am LDS?

Am I required to volunteer by law if I am a Citizen of Nevada?

Is the Tax Code in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?

If it is in violation of the First Amendment am I required to obey it?

Joseph Smith said: "The different states, and even Congress itself, have passed many laws diametrically contrary to the Constitution of the United States. . . . Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its laws, which are unconstitutional? No.“

All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” –Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.” –Norton vs. Shelby County, 118 US 425 p.442

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” –Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491

“All acts of the legislature apparently contrary to natural rights and justice are, in our law and must be in the nature of things, considered void... We are in conscience bound to disobey.” –Robin vs. Hardaway, 1 Jefferson 109, (Va., 1772)

So is the IRC "apparently contrary to natural rights and justice"?

Are you conscience bound to disobey?

Are Latter-day Saints required to obey unconstitutional laws?

John Taylor did not seem to think so. Do you?

Then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? No; not unless they are unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. Whenever the Congress of the United States, for instance, pass[es] a law interfering with my religion, or with my religious rights, I will read a small portion of that instrument called the Constitution of the United States, now almost obsolete, which says—"Congress shall pass no law interfering with religion or the free exercise thereof" [US Const. Amend. I]; and I would say, gentlemen, you may go to Gibraltar with your law, and I will live my religion. When you become violators of the Constitution you have sworn before high heaven to uphold, and perjure yourselves before God, then I will maintain the right, and leave you to take the wrong just as you please. (JD 11:343; revised in JT Papers 1:232)


John Taylor also stated:

They have, however, discovered the difference between a blind submission to the caprices of political demagogues, and obedience to the Constitution, laws, and institutions of the United States; nor can they in the present instance be hood-winked by the cry of "treason." If it be treason to stand up for our Constitutional rights; if it be treason to resist the unconstitutional acts of a vitiated and corrupt administration, who by a mercenary armed force would seek to rob us of the rights of franchise, cut our throats to subserve their own party, and seek to force upon us their corrupt tools, and violently invade the rights of American citizens; if it be treason to maintain inviolate our homes, our firesides, our wives, and our honor, from the corrupting, and withering blight of a debauched soldiery; if it be treason to maintain inviolate the Constitution and institutions of the United States, when nearly all the states are seeking to trample them under their feet—then indeed are we guilty of treason.

But then that was John Taylor's opinion so do you need to consider it as LDS doctrine?

I do hope I was able to answer your questions.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 25th, 2010, 2:36 pm
by Henmasher
Wiikwajio wrote:
Henmasher wrote:
You keep claiming, without actually making the statement, that the Apostles file and therefore, somehow believe that everyone is like them or in the same financial position.
My question can then be why would the apostles not be doing what seems to be right. With all the church resources why is there not a movement to liberate the church as you have liberated yourself?

I will answer your second question first by simply quoting E.T. Benson in G.C. listing the excuses as to why LDS do not stand up and fight against Communism/Socialism:

"Seven: And now as the last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively - it is simply this: "Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution." This brings us right back to the scripture I opened with today - to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things." Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

"Years ago Elder Joseph F. Merrill of the Council of the Twelve encouraged the members of the Church to join right-to-work leagues and President Heber J. Grant concurred. For our day President David O. McKay has called communism the greatest threat to the Church, and it is certainly the greatest mortal threat this country has ever faced. What are you doing to fight it?

"Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?"

I am prepared and it is not an indictment I will have to bear. It appears, according to ETB that the Elders, in general are not prepared to create a "movement to liberate the church." Perhaps we need some faithful members that do not lend aid, and sympathy to false isms to step up and start a "movement to liberate the church" but I have been unable to find such men in the Church. The ones I find that know how to free themselves are usually not in the church or the local leadership is attacking them for fighting against tyranny.

Now on to the other question:

US Corporate officers are required to file returns. At least I believe they are but the IRC is very confusing so I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that US corporation officers are required to file returns as that is a privileged occupation.

Are the Apostles US Corporate officers?

Are you?

Federal personnel are also required to file returns under certain circumstances (I think).

Are the Apostles Federal personnel?

Do the Apostles meet those circumstances?

Do you?

What happens to Corporations that are 501(c)(3) as far as their Corporate officers?

What does United States Code Title 5 say about how you become Federal personnel?

What does voluntary compliance mean?

You are among the millions of Americans who comply with the tax law voluntarily. –1992 Form1040 Tax Instruction Booklet

Our tax system is based on individual self-assessment and voluntary compliance. –Mortimer Caplin, IRS Commissioner, 1975 IRS IR Audit Manual

Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint. –United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

Do the Apostles volunteer?

Do you?

Am I required to volunteer because I am LDS?

Am I required to volunteer by law if I am a Citizen of Nevada?

Is the Tax Code in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?

If it is in violation of the First Amendment am I required to obey it?

Joseph Smith said: "The different states, and even Congress itself, have passed many laws diametrically contrary to the Constitution of the United States. . . . Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its laws, which are unconstitutional? No.“

All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” –Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.” –Norton vs. Shelby County, 118 US 425 p.442

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” –Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491

“All acts of the legislature apparently contrary to natural rights and justice are, in our law and must be in the nature of things, considered void... We are in conscience bound to disobey.” –Robin vs. Hardaway, 1 Jefferson 109, (Va., 1772)

So is the IRC "apparently contrary to natural rights and justice"?

Are you conscience bound to disobey?

Are Latter-day Saints required to obey unconstitutional laws?

John Taylor did not seem to think so. Do you?

Then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? No; not unless they are unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. Whenever the Congress of the United States, for instance, pass[es] a law interfering with my religion, or with my religious rights, I will read a small portion of that instrument called the Constitution of the United States, now almost obsolete, which says—"Congress shall pass no law interfering with religion or the free exercise thereof" [US Const. Amend. I]; and I would say, gentlemen, you may go to Gibraltar with your law, and I will live my religion. When you become violators of the Constitution you have sworn before high heaven to uphold, and perjure yourselves before God, then I will maintain the right, and leave you to take the wrong just as you please. (JD 11:343; revised in JT Papers 1:232)


John Taylor also stated:

They have, however, discovered the difference between a blind submission to the caprices of political demagogues, and obedience to the Constitution, laws, and institutions of the United States; nor can they in the present instance be hood-winked by the cry of "treason." If it be treason to stand up for our Constitutional rights; if it be treason to resist the unconstitutional acts of a vitiated and corrupt administration, who by a mercenary armed force would seek to rob us of the rights of franchise, cut our throats to subserve their own party, and seek to force upon us their corrupt tools, and violently invade the rights of American citizens; if it be treason to maintain inviolate our homes, our firesides, our wives, and our honor, from the corrupting, and withering blight of a debauched soldiery; if it be treason to maintain inviolate the Constitution and institutions of the United States, when nearly all the states are seeking to trample them under their feet—then indeed are we guilty of treason.

But then that was John Taylor's opinion so do you need to consider it as LDS doctrine?

I do hope I was able to answer your questions.
What is red?
What is blue?
What is orange?
What is green?
What is purple?
What is majenta?
What is square?
What is round?
What is oval?

Enough questions for answers. My question may have been vague but it is not a question of slothful servants. Unless you are determining that every apostle, Ezra Taft Benson, and any other person you quoted that paid taxes was slothful. I asked why has not the church liberated itself. I did not ask for a lesson on slothful servants or more quotes from ETB on what is correct principles when you state those that pay taxes are marxixt and now.......slothful servants.
Your quotes are very correct but I find it hard that all the apostles and anyone else that paid taxes will be slothful servants and encourages marxism, communism, and socialism. We are asked to eschew false isms. Yes
May the prophet always be my example. May ETB receive his exaltation having paid taxes.
Do remember that we are to render to ceasar what is ceasars. But anyone that justifies exclusion from the church of Jesus Christ or manipulates prophets words to encourage their agenda, are not rendering to the Father what is the Fathers. I render my time and energy to Father and the Church. Then comes ceasar and what I render ceasar. I dunno what ETB did and now what the living prophets do.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 25th, 2010, 7:18 pm
by TonyOlsen
Henmasher wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:
Henmasher wrote: ...

My question can then be why would the apostles not be doing what seems to be right. With all the church resources why is there not a movement to liberate the church as you have liberated yourself?

I will answer your second question first by simply quoting E.T. Benson in G.C. listing the excuses as to why LDS do not stand up and fight against Communism/Socialism:

"Seven: And now as the last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively - it is simply this: "Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution." This brings us right back to the scripture I opened with today - to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things." Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

"Years ago Elder Joseph F. Merrill of the Council of the Twelve encouraged the members of the Church to join right-to-work leagues and President Heber J. Grant concurred. For our day President David O. McKay has called communism the greatest threat to the Church, and it is certainly the greatest mortal threat this country has ever faced. What are you doing to fight it?

"Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?"

I am prepared and it is not an indictment I will have to bear. It appears, according to ETB that the Elders, in general are not prepared to create a "movement to liberate the church." Perhaps we need some faithful members that do not lend aid, and sympathy to false isms to step up and start a "movement to liberate the church" but I have been unable to find such men in the Church. The ones I find that know how to free themselves are usually not in the church or the local leadership is attacking them for fighting against tyranny.

Now on to the other question:

US Corporate officers are required to file returns. At least I believe they are but the IRC is very confusing so I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that US corporation officers are required to file returns as that is a privileged occupation.

Are the Apostles US Corporate officers?

Are you?

Federal personnel are also required to file returns under certain circumstances (I think).

Are the Apostles Federal personnel?

Do the Apostles meet those circumstances?

Do you?

What happens to Corporations that are 501(c)(3) as far as their Corporate officers?

What does United States Code Title 5 say about how you become Federal personnel?

What does voluntary compliance mean?

You are among the millions of Americans who comply with the tax law voluntarily. –1992 Form1040 Tax Instruction Booklet

Our tax system is based on individual self-assessment and voluntary compliance. –Mortimer Caplin, IRS Commissioner, 1975 IRS IR Audit Manual

Our system of taxation is based on voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint. –United States v. Flora, 362 US 145 (1958)

Do the Apostles volunteer?

Do you?

Am I required to volunteer because I am LDS?

Am I required to volunteer by law if I am a Citizen of Nevada?

Is the Tax Code in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?

If it is in violation of the First Amendment am I required to obey it?

Joseph Smith said: "The different states, and even Congress itself, have passed many laws diametrically contrary to the Constitution of the United States. . . . Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its laws, which are unconstitutional? No.“

All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” –Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.” –Norton vs. Shelby County, 118 US 425 p.442

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” –Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491

“All acts of the legislature apparently contrary to natural rights and justice are, in our law and must be in the nature of things, considered void... We are in conscience bound to disobey.” –Robin vs. Hardaway, 1 Jefferson 109, (Va., 1772)

So is the IRC "apparently contrary to natural rights and justice"?

Are you conscience bound to disobey?

Are Latter-day Saints required to obey unconstitutional laws?

John Taylor did not seem to think so. Do you?

Then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? No; not unless they are unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. Whenever the Congress of the United States, for instance, pass[es] a law interfering with my religion, or with my religious rights, I will read a small portion of that instrument called the Constitution of the United States, now almost obsolete, which says—"Congress shall pass no law interfering with religion or the free exercise thereof" [US Const. Amend. I]; and I would say, gentlemen, you may go to Gibraltar with your law, and I will live my religion. When you become violators of the Constitution you have sworn before high heaven to uphold, and perjure yourselves before God, then I will maintain the right, and leave you to take the wrong just as you please. (JD 11:343; revised in JT Papers 1:232)


John Taylor also stated:

They have, however, discovered the difference between a blind submission to the caprices of political demagogues, and obedience to the Constitution, laws, and institutions of the United States; nor can they in the present instance be hood-winked by the cry of "treason." If it be treason to stand up for our Constitutional rights; if it be treason to resist the unconstitutional acts of a vitiated and corrupt administration, who by a mercenary armed force would seek to rob us of the rights of franchise, cut our throats to subserve their own party, and seek to force upon us their corrupt tools, and violently invade the rights of American citizens; if it be treason to maintain inviolate our homes, our firesides, our wives, and our honor, from the corrupting, and withering blight of a debauched soldiery; if it be treason to maintain inviolate the Constitution and institutions of the United States, when nearly all the states are seeking to trample them under their feet—then indeed are we guilty of treason.

But then that was John Taylor's opinion so do you need to consider it as LDS doctrine?

I do hope I was able to answer your questions.
What is red?
What is blue?
What is orange?
What is green?
What is purple?
What is majenta?
What is square?
What is round?
What is oval?

Enough questions for answers. My question may have been vague but it is not a question of slothful servants. Unless you are determining that every apostle, Ezra Taft Benson, and any other person you quoted that paid taxes was slothful. I asked why has not the church liberated itself. I did not ask for a lesson on slothful servants or more quotes from ETB on what is correct principles when you state those that pay taxes are marxixt and now.......slothful servants.
Your quotes are very correct but I find it hard that all the apostles and anyone else that paid taxes will be slothful servants and encourages marxism, communism, and socialism. We are asked to eschew false isms. Yes
May the prophet always be my example. May ETB receive his exaltation having paid taxes.
Do remember that we are to render to ceasar what is ceasars. But anyone that justifies exclusion from the church of Jesus Christ or manipulates prophets words to encourage their agenda, are not rendering to the Father what is the Fathers. I render my time and energy to Father and the Church. Then comes ceasar and what I render ceasar. I dunno what ETB did and now what the living prophets do.
Well put.

That's my question as well.

Wiikwajio, I'm not trying to attack you. You're statements don't make me uncomfortable. You've delved into areas I don't yet know that much about involving specific laws, etc, so I can't confirm what you're saying.

All I asked was basically what Henmasher also asked above. I've met many people who imply certain claims but who are very clever never to get pinned down on anything. I've also met many people who can talk fancy and make it seem like they're running circles around you... and most of them are charlatans hiding the truth behind parlor tricks in their attempts to "pull a fast one on you".

When you talk about things I don't know about, it either means you're speaking truth I haven't discovered yet, or it means you're not speaking truth. Since I don't yet know, I can't paint it as one or the other...

...but your side-stepping the direct questions and attempts to flood the conversation (perhaps in the hopes that it will die) don't paint a positive "perspective".

Yes, you answered the question about why the Church hasn't set out to liberate the members from Socialism. Well worded and I agree. Thanks.

...but you haven't answered the question as to whether you believe the Apostles pay taxes or not and whether they file tax-returns or not. You previously posted that you believe that anyone filing tax-returns is evil and they support Socialism... this is why the question was brought up regarding whether you understand the apostles file or not, etc...

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 25th, 2010, 11:44 pm
by Wiikwajio
Henmasher wrote:
I do hope I was able to answer your questions.
What is red?
What is blue?
What is orange?
What is green?
What is purple?
What is majenta?
What is square?
What is round?
What is oval?
Red is: being in the color range between a moderate orange and russet or bay
Blue is: low in spirits : melancholy b : marked by low spirits : depressing
Orange is: any of a group of colors that lie midway between red and yellow in hue
Green is: deficient in training, knowledge, or experience
Purple is: any of various colors that fall about midway between red and blue in hue
Magenta is: a deep purplish red
Square is: an instrument having at least one right angle and two straight edges used especially to lay out or test right angles
Round is: having every part of the surface or circumference equidistant from the center
Oval is: having the shape of an egg; also : broadly elliptical

You see I can answer questions with ease. At least questions what have definitions.
Try giving me the Congressionally definition for the value of a dollar. It currently does not exist.
Tell me what income means in the 16th Amendment?
Tell me what sources of income are taxable?



Enough questions for answers. My question may have been vague but it is not a question of slothful servants. Unless you are determining that every apostle, Ezra Taft Benson, and any other person you quoted that paid taxes was slothful.

The question must first be answered: Are they required to file by law? Do you know if they were because some people are.

The second question must be: Which LDS priesthood holders are required to fight the battle for liberty? The Apostles or the Elders or some other group? And if it is the elders and they have failed are the Apostles accountable?
Henmasher wrote: I asked why has not the church liberated itself.
I gave you the answer given by an Apostle in General Conference. It is not the job of the church and the Lord has required that it be done without obvious directions relying on directions for God Himself to individuals. It is a difficult job and must be done by individuals. At least that is what an Apostle in General Conference clearly stated.
Henmasher wrote: I did not ask for a lesson on slothful servants or more quotes from ETB on what is correct principles when you state those that pay taxes are marxixt and now.......slothful servants.
You asked why the Church has not done it. ETB clearly stated that it could tear the church apart. Look at your attitude toward me. Obviously Benson was correct.
Henmasher wrote: Your quotes are very correct but I find it hard that all the apostles and anyone else that paid taxes will be slothful servants and encourages marxism, communism, and socialism.
If you owe you should file and pay unless it is a violation of your faith to the point that you simply cannot do so and be faithful.
Henmasher wrote: We are asked to eschew false isms. Yes
We are not asked. We are told that if we do not eschew false isms that we are not faithful. That is no more a request than the command to pay tithing.
Henmasher wrote:May the prophet always be my example.
So if the Prophet buy a $500,000 home you should? If the Prophet buy a Ford you should stop buying Chevys? If the Prophet cheers for BYU you have to stop cheering for UNLV?

May the Lord always be my example.

And the prophet does not have my calling or your calling. He has his calling. Should you speak in General Conference? Should you be a Corporate Executive? We are different people. So why if the Prophet pays Utah Income Tax does that mean you should too? Why in the world are you in another State than Utah? Don't you follow the example of the prophet in ALL THINGS?
Henmasher wrote: May ETB receive his exaltation having paid taxes.
ETB was Federal personnel for sure. He was the Secretary of Agriculture. Were you? Why not? Don't you follow the Prophet's example?
Henmasher wrote:Do remember that we are to render to ceasar what is ceasars.
Again you quote a scripture that means nothing in these latter-days in America unless you read it to mean that Caesar is YOU and ME! I am Caesar. You are Caesar in the USA. The Supreme Court and history say so. So what does that verse mean when you calculate in the FACT that Americans are not subjects, have no Caesar and are sovereigns? WOW :shock: Now it means we are to render unto ourselves that which is our own.

When you read the command of McKay and read it understanding that YOU are a sovereign and are to render unto yourself that which is your own it takes on its TRUE importance:

(1) Preserve our right to worship God according to the dictates of our conscience,
(2) Preserve the right to work when and where we choose....
(3) Feel free to plan and to reap without the handicap of bureaucratic interference.
(4) Devote our time, means, and life if necessary, to hold inviolate those laws which will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.” (“Free Agency.. .A Divine Gift” 367, 378)

President McKay commanded you and me and every Elder to render unto ourselves that which is our own.
Henmasher wrote: But anyone that justifies exclusion from the church of Jesus Christ or manipulates prophets words to encourage their agenda, are not rendering to the Father what is the Fathers.
You have failed to prove that it is I and not you that are manipulating the Prophet's words. You just manipulated the Bible concerning render unto Caesar when you KNOW that there is no Caesar in America to Render anything to. Why attempt to manipulate the prophet's words to mean that we need not eschew Socialism and a Marxist commandment tax? The problem is that you have determined that I am wrong all evidence to the contrary because it makes you uncomfortable. I wait to see your evidence. You have failed to give me any proof that your theory is the correct theory.

You fail to show me any law that would require the average American to file a tax return. You fail to show me the definition of a dollar that the Constitution DEMANDS must be created and defined by Congress. And yet you attack me and say it is I that manipulate the words of the Prophets. If you want to prove it then do it. Don't just quote your feelings. Quote the First Presidency. Quote the OFFICIAL statements from the prophets. Quote, as I do, the apostles speaking in General Conference and not just the opinions of those men when they are not in General Conference.

I look forward to those answers. I certainly have been unable to get them from the Apostles. My Stake Presidents and bishops certainly can not give them too me. No one can show me the laws they say I violate. I was recently across the table from two attorneys and they both went wide eyed when I showed them the Nevada law that says clearly that I have a license to drive a motor vehicle without having a drivers license. I just whooped 5 Assistant DAs in Court this month on legal issues because they cannot show me the laws that allowed them to do what they were doing.

"Everyone knows" is not a justification. The law is to be clear and unequivocal ESPECIALLY in tax law and the Supreme Court says so. And yet you are unable to show me any law I am violating. Therefore these taxes are not MY taxes. They are exactly what the IRS and Harry Reid and the United States Supreme Court says they are. Voluntary."

The prophet ETB said I am not to wait for the church but to follow the teachings of the prophets and do it ON MY OWN.

I did. The Apostles have other duties and responsibilities and they cannot do what I do until the Elders of the Church do their job that Benson said they needed to do and that they have not done.
Henmasher wrote: I render my time and energy to Father and the Church. Then comes ceasar and what I render ceasar.
Interesting. Who is your Caesar that you render to? Do you mean your servants? And you are to render FIRST to Caesar and then to the Lord if you follow the scripture. But then you cannot follow it because there is no Caesar in the USA that you must render anything to. Caesar is dead and so is the Roman Empire.
Henmasher wrote:I dunno what ETB did and now what the living prophets do.
Well if they buy a Volkswagen be sure to follow their example. Maybe you should find out what they have for breakfast too. And when will you be moving into a house like they have?

And you still cannot show me the law that say you are liable nor can you tell me what a dollar is as currently defined by Congress as required by the Constitution.

The Apostles and the Lord are waiting on the Elders of Israel to wake up. How long will they have to wait?

Any time you want to have a debate and use proof and official statements by the First Presidency and law and Supreme Court rulings instead of your opinions and the opinions of others I am READY and willing.

Let's just establish some ground rules we both agree upon and go for it.

I certainly am not afraid of being confounded. Are you?

2 Ne. 4: 22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.
2 Ne. 7: 7 For the Lord God will help me, therefore shall I not be confounded. Therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
Jacob 7: 8 But behold, the Lord God poured in his Spirit into my soul, insomuch that I did confound him in all his words.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 26th, 2010, 12:14 am
by Wiikwajio
TonyOlsen wrote:Well put.

That's my question as well.

Wiikwajio, I'm not trying to attack you. You're statements don't make me uncomfortable. You've delved into areas I don't yet know that much about involving specific laws, etc, so I can't confirm what you're saying.

All I asked was basically what Henmasher also asked above. I've met many people who imply certain claims but who are very clever never to get pinned down on anything.
I feel your pain. I allow myself to answer in kind only. If you ask a question I answer with a question and you refuse to answer it. I believe that Christ answered questions with questions and I have been told to be like Christ so I follow that example. Remember the question Christ asked about John the Baptist? He was, how did you put it, "very clever."

If you want straight answers then debate me with established ground rules. What dictionary shall we use? What laws? What courts are allowed? What expert witnesses? Shall it be you ask two questions and receive two answers and then I ask two question and you give me two answers? If a question is not answered then the other person need not answer the others question?

I do not like simple opinions so shall we restrict it to Official Proclamations, statements by the First Presidency, talk by Apostles in General Conference, the Scriptures as found on LDS.org, Federal law as it applies to State citizens, the State laws of the State where we are?

TonyOlsen wrote: I've also met many people who can talk fancy and make it seem like they're running circles around you... and most of them are charlatans hiding the truth behind parlor tricks in their attempts to "pull a fast one on you".
Again I feel your pain. I keep waiting for you to show me the laws you claim I violate. AS yet you have been unable to. A man that cannot show me the law he claims I violate is worse than a charlatan. He is a tyrant or a tyrant in training. He cannot be trusted. Wouldn't you agree?
TonyOlsen wrote:When you talk about things I don't know about, it either means you're speaking truth I haven't discovered yet, or it means you're not speaking truth. Since I don't yet know, I can't paint it as one or the other...
Thomas Jefferson stated, “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.”

Frankly, your ignorance is not my fault. If you do not know then learn. But don't expect me to teach you the way you want to be taught. I teach by letting you prove me wrong. If you can defeat me then you are the master and I am the student. If not then you have a lot to learn. Do you want to learn or do you want to call me a charlatan AGAIN?
TonyOlsen wrote:...but your side-stepping the direct questions and attempts to flood the conversation (perhaps in the hopes that it will die) don't paint a positive "perspective".
I answer questions as Christ did. If you do not lie it then tie me down with rules I agree to in a debate format. Remember...I have been a politician for 45 years. Side stepping questions is as easy for me as walking. I side step questions because I can get no answers. I don't care if you do not get your questions answered. I am out to get my questions answered and you refuse to answer them and then accuse me of side stepping. You must be a Republican.
TonyOlsen wrote:Yes, you answered the question about why the Church hasn't set out to liberate the members from Socialism. Well worded and I agree. Thanks.
I don't answer question and did not answer that question. I let Ezra Taft Benson answer that question. I let the Supreme Court answer questions. I let Senator Ensign and Senator Reid and the IRS and Social Security Administration and Congress answer questions. I am just an ignorant high school drop out. I know nothing except what others teach me.
TonyOlsen wrote:...but you haven't answered the question as to whether you believe the Apostles pay taxes or not and whether they file tax-returns or not.
First I would have to know if they are liable. I don't so I cannot answer that question because I do not have enough information that is documentable. Do you have any proof they file and pay? Are they persons liable as per the IRC and does the IRC apply to them? Are they Federal personnel? Do they have income in dollars that exceeds the filing limit? Do they know what a dollar is? Are they corporate officers? Are Corporate officers persons liable? Has the Lord told them to file because the Elder of Israel have not done their job and so the Lord wants to place the blame and sin upon the Elders?

I don't know so why not find out and get back to me with your proof?
TonyOlsen wrote:You previously posted that you believe that anyone filing tax-returns is evil and they support Socialism... this is why the question was brought up regarding whether you understand the apostles file or not, etc...
I do not remember using those words. In general I believe that but some people are 100% liable as far as I can tell. If you are a federal employee then you are liable for the Income tax because it is a return of money received from the Federal Government as per my current understanding. US Corporate officers are, to the best of my knowledge, also liable. But people that volunteer to pay a Socialist tax that are not persons made liable are IMHO not faithful members. They may sin in ignorance but the ignorance is self-imposed.

So if you want to take the time to debate these issues instead of thinking you can place me on the witness stand and demand that it is only my duty to answer questions, then let us go forward. But if you want me to answer YOUR questions, you WILL answer mine also or I will continue to sidestep your questions like a 45 year politician can so easily do.

I think it is called putting up or shutting up. :lol: Come into my parlor little fly.

Re: Libertarian style traffic laws

Posted: May 26th, 2010, 12:55 am
by LukeAir2008
TonyOlsen wrote:
KalelIsbell wrote:are we still talking about traffic laws??? :lol:
LOL :lol:

No...

By mentioning the word "Libertarian", the hair on the back of the Socialists necks stood on end and a conversation ensued.

I'm a Libertarian, Freeman, Classical Liberal, Modern Conservative, Constitutionalist.

I'm anti-Socialist.
Isn't it a contradiction to say you're a Libertarian AND a Modern Conservative. Modern Conservatives are just Socialists with a Conservative label. If you'd said Paleo-Conservative then I would have understood? :D