LDS Freedom Forum

I'm a member of the church in Scotland. I'm standing in the General Election as a UKIP candidate. You may have heared of UKIP on Alex Jones - Lord Monckton is UKIP's candidate in a nearby constituency that's just up the road from me called Perthshire.

Anyway, I decided to 'come out' as a pro-gun libertarian in my statements to the local papers. I expect the locals to be a bit shocked, but I'm surprised that many LDS in Britain are so mainstream with their views.

Here's an email that I received from a HP in my ward:

Hello Kris,
I was reading a little about each of the candidates in the paper today and hope that you will not become known as "The Mormon candidate who wants guns on the streets."

Do you experience the same sort of anti-gun feeling from church members in Utah?

I'm even toying with the idea of openly criticising the NHS. Criticising the NHS in Britain is seen as socially unacceptable as urinating on a child's grave!

In Utah, and in most state West of the Mississippi, no serious candidate would dare declare himself anti gun. Only along the West coast, California, Oregon and Washington anti gun candidates "might" win. Even today in California, gun control is being fought.

Politically, in Utah, such an anti gun declaration would be political suicide. I know members who refuse to own guns, but they say nothing about those of us who own them.

You might consider moving!!

Bob

In California we do have that sentiment by some. I put together this article to try to help such people see understand LDS doctrine concerning guns...maybe it could help...

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

This is the difficulty with politics here in the UK. As soon as you take a stance on something and it is known you are a member of the Church then it becomes used in the news. That's not the real issue though, the real issue is that other members of the Church (and even leaders who should know better) get "concerned" and think that the member may be putting the Church in a bad light.

It's fine to be a Labour candidate and support socialist practices, but stand against it (the NHS etc.) and you are out of order

Best of luck with your campaign. I shall be voting for a UKIP candidate (if we have one). I am glad Lord Monckton is standing. He seems to be one of the few politicans who has a grasp on reality (I've followed his exposure of the environmental movement and the real agenda behind it (global governance)). Good man.

I, too, am shocked out how unthinking many LDS are in their political views. The sad reality is that many do not seem to have applied the gospel and revelation to this area of their thinking. But people are waking up - including LDS. I knew two other people in the UK (in my area) who had "woken up" about 15 years ago. Now I know a half dozen - not huge out of a couple of stakes but, hey, give it another 1000 years

Lord Monckton is one of my heroes for stating publicly that the real purpose of the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen on Dec. 7-18 is to use global warming hype as a pretext to lay the foundation for a one-world government. He reportedly said: "I read that treaty and what it says is this: that a world government is going to be created. The world 'government' actually appears as the first of three purposes of the new entity. The second purpose is the transfer of wealth from the countries of the West to Third World countries, in satisfaction of what is called, coyly, 'climate debt' – because we've been burning CO2 and they haven't. We've been screwing up the climate and they haven't. And the third purpose of this new entity, this government is enforcement." My best to him.

I hope you UK guys don't have to worry about what your church leaders think. What may seem like adverse publicity the Lord can turn into His advantage. Back in 1977 I was working on construction of the Phillips Petroleum natural gas liquification plant at Seal Sands near Stockton-on-Tees. Some LDS missionary elsewhere in country was kidnapped at gunpoint for several days by a former girlfriend from the US. According to our stake president and missionaries in our area, missionary activity increased considerably for the good. Within a few days most guys working on site learned I was a Mormon and experienced with guns. Word got out and I did get a visit from two police inspectors inquiring about a shotgun gone missing.

Some months before that, a prisoner with the same last name as mine escaped from custody in a court, acquired a revolver, kidnapped a girl, and was after some days run to ground one night in a house out on the Yorkshire moors. According to the news media, the police had to go door to door in the dark asking to borrow shotguns to, as it turned out, kill the guy.

English Saint wrote:I'm a member of the church in Scotland. I'm standing in the General Election as a UKIP candidate. You may have heared of UKIP on Alex Jones - Lord Monckton is UKIP's candidate in a nearby constituency that's just up the road from me called Perthshire.

Anyway, I decided to 'come out' as a pro-gun libertarian in my statements to the local papers. I expect the locals to be a bit shocked, but I'm surprised that many LDS in Britain are so mainstream with their views.

Here's an email that I received from a HP in my ward:

Hello Kris,
I was reading a little about each of the candidates in the paper today and hope that you will not become known as "The Mormon candidate who wants guns on the streets."

Do you experience the same sort of anti-gun feeling from church members in Utah?

I'm even toying with the idea of openly criticising the NHS. Criticising the NHS in Britain is seen as socially unacceptable as urinating on a child's grave!

Go get'em guy! And if you expect support for freedom from Mormons I will give you 45 years of American political experience.

FORGET IT. They love slavery.

MasterOfNone wrote: I, too, am shocked out how unthinking many LDS are in their political views. The sad reality is that many do not seem to have applied the gospel and revelation to this area of their thinking. But people are waking up - including LDS. I knew two other people in the UK (in my area) who had "woken up" about 15 years ago. Now I know a half dozen - not huge out of a couple of stakes but, hey, give it another 1000 years

Why be shocked? Prophesy fulfilled:

38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

It's not that Mormons love slavery. They are just afraid to do anything about until the Prophet tells them what to do.

When the First Presidency told Mormons to actively support CA Prop 8 and AZ Prop 102, they responded quite well. But were they told to actively support candidates for elected offices who espoused constitutional principles? Did many do so on their own?

Wiikwajio wrote: Go get'em guy! And if you expect support for freedom from Mormons I will give you 45 years of American political experience.

FORGET IT. They love slavery.

THAT is really an inappropriate statement..... I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't apply to most.
Man you extremists are too much. Your "damning" of everyone without understanding that there ARE SIDES, and that in those sides there is often a spectrum of belief on individual issues. But, you just don't throw the baby out with the bath water if your actually wanting to change the dirty water that the good side might sometimes be bathing in!

So STOP with the over generalizations! And you wonder why some of us consider you and your idols (Ron Paul, Alex Jones, etc.) "fringe nuts". It's completely false and degrading statements LIKE THAT!

lundbaek wrote:It's not that Mormons love slavery. They are just afraid to do anything about until the Prophet tells them what to do.

When the First Presidency told Mormons to actively support CA Prop 8 and AZ Prop 102, they responded quite well. But were they told to actively support candidates for elected offices who espoused constitutional principles? Did many do so on their own?

Uh...... Yes.....

I seem to recall that usually when the Church gives it's "voting time" announcement, that they more often than not mention the Constitution, to support candidates etc. that support it, as well as the moral issues, etc.

Again, more dissing of the Church and it's members..... You all should be ashamed.

It seems to me that when the Church gives it's "voting time" announcement it is already too late for most people to figure out which candidates are more supportive of constitutional principles. Already now I note certain candidates that many of us here I'm sure consider traitors to our Constitution are putting on the "conservative" talk and even doing the "conservative" walk in their efforts to appeal more to (deceive) voters of more "conservative" persuasions.

I would like to think that members were and will be told to actively support candidates for elected offices who espouse constitutional principles. But if I recall correctly (always a challenge at 72) in our ward, and according to my inquiries in our and in adjacent and other stakes, the members were told to support honest candidates, but there was no mention that I'm aware of to determine which candidates most espouse constitutional principles. In fact, I'm convinced most American LDS voters are not well enough versed in the Constitution, especially as established by the Founding Fathers, to recognize if a candidate truly supports the Constitution. My timbers shiver as I note members supporting candidates and incumbents who have clearly demonstrated that they haven't the intellect to understand the Constitution, and/or lack the integrity to be guided by it. I may be missing someone, but with the possible exception of UT Representative Chaffetz, I cannot think of a single LDS in the US Congress in recent years who has been anywhere near true to constitutional principles.

Here in Arizona, our primary election is scheduled for the end of August. IMO it is already too late, except for the politically astute, to figure out which of the Republican candidates for the US Senate is the most "conservative", or would be the most likely to abide by constitutional principles. The worst of the bunch, I think most of us on this forum would agree, has already been endorsed by Mitt Romney, who I believe should be leading the charge toward restoring constitutional principles to government, not supporting a Constitution shredder and globalist.

I note that in Utah there are a few Republican candidates challenging Senator Bennett. If I understand correctly, Scott Bradley will again run for US Senate as the Constitution Party candidate. From where I sit I can find no reason why Bennett cannot be defeated. If he is not, it will speak badly for Utah LDS voters, IMO

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 33#p127933

See Docs quotes he used on this link. They are pertinent to educating the LDS public on self defense issues.

lundbaek wrote:It seems to me that when the Church gives it's "voting time" announcement it is already too late for most people to figure out which candidates are more supportive of constitutional principles. Already now I note certain candidates that many of us here I'm sure consider traitors to our Constitution are putting on the "conservative" talk and even doing the "conservative" walk in their efforts to appeal more to (deceive) voters of more "conservative" persuasions.

I would like to think that members were and will be told to actively support candidates for elected offices who espouse constitutional principles. But if I recall correctly (always a challenge at 72) in our ward, and according to my inquiries in our and in adjacent and other stakes, the members were told to support honest candidates, but there was no mention that I'm aware of to determine which candidates most espouse constitutional principles. In fact, I'm convinced most American LDS voters are not well enough versed in the Constitution, especially as established by the Founding Fathers, to recognize if a candidate truly supports the Constitution. My timbers shiver as I note members supporting candidates and incumbents who have clearly demonstrated that they haven't the intellect to understand the Constitution, and/or lack the integrity to be guided by it. I may be missing someone, but with the possible exception of UT Representative Chaffetz, I cannot think of a single LDS in the US Congress in recent years who has been anywhere near true to constitutional principles.

Here in Arizona, our primary election is scheduled for the end of August. IMO it is already too late, except for the politically astute, to figure out which of the Republican candidates for the US Senate is the most "conservative", or would be the most likely to abide by constitutional principles. The worst of the bunch, I think most of us on this forum would agree, has already been endorsed by Mitt Romney, who I believe should be leading the charge toward restoring constitutional principles to government, not supporting a Constitution shredder and globalist.

I note that in Utah there are a few Republican candidates challenging Senator Bennett. If I understand correctly, Scott Bradley will again run for US Senate as the Constitution Party candidate. From where I sit I can find no reason why Bennett cannot be defeated. If he is not, it will speak badly for Utah LDS voters, IMO

I knew Chaffetz when he was at BYU. Then, he was a flaming liberal who was actively supporting his very liberal uncle, Governor "Michael Dukakis" for president against George H. W. Bush. I had a couple of enlightening conversations with Chaffetz, even at BYU he wasn't at all shy of admitting his liberal political views. When I heard he was running for congress as a conservative republican, I was "surprised!"

Now, I'll be the first to admit that people can change, they can "repent" of their agency granted political views, but I'm honestly lost on the "thought" that Brother Mitt cannot change, cannot "repent" of his past (wrong?) political views, it's seemingly absolutely "impossible" for that to happen according to many on this board, Chaffetz can, but Mitt cannot???

Politically, I'm looking for the man who will be our (King) Hezekiah, our righteous political leader during these last days events. If we study the history of Hezekiah, we find there were times he wasn't so righteous, in fact he bordered on gross wickedness. Even though Hezekiah was pretty close to being Almatized in his wickedness, like Alma, Hezekiah was forgiven.

If Mitt runs, unless something drastic happens, I'm supporting him. I want a priesthood holder in high political office, one like Hezekiah who confers with the prophet.

I watch and have attended Tea Parties, I'm very aware that gadiantons may infiltrate the tea parties and being the wolves in sheep's clothing so many here complain about. I wouldn't vote for Harry Reid, at the same time I don't see him as a wolf in sheep's clothing, his liberal political views are right out there in the open for everybody to see. Apostle Hugh B. Brown, once a member of the first presidency was a democrat, apparently the Lord didn't hold that fact against him, so why should I?

I know I must depend upon the Spirit to know who's the bad guy "or" just the wrong guy!

I'm a Conservative, and will continue to vote conservative, but if the lord forgives a man, so must I!.

Bob

I live in Oregon, and there is no anti-gun sentiment in our ward; however, my town is a little more agrarian than most. We enjoy shooting, and also consider it important to be able to protect ourselves. My husband was gone this weekend, and he made sure to talk to me again about 'where' (I know where it is) the shot gun is and the appropriate ammo.

We have a doctor in our ward that is a gun collector. The local cops love him (and his collection!)

Aside from this, I've been thinking about candidates and the sentiment of "he's never going to win" and "don't waste your vote" from the mainstream crowd. I've thought about Ron Paul, and the money I donated to his campaign. Sure I was disappointed about how he did in the primaries, but I can tell you now in hindsight--my vote and certainly my dollars were NOT WASTED. Look at the spreading of libertarian ideas that has resulted. It has only grown--and just from one person standing up and speaking out! Don't be afraid. Keep pressing forward. My husband and I feel the same way when people at church look at us cross-eyed because we're not card-carrying, state-loving republicans anymore.

I often think of the prophets in the Book of Mormon when they were cross-examined by their enemies. Often there is a crowd of bystanders listening. When all is said and done there are 1.) those that are angry still (and want to kill the prophets); 2.) those that walk away (neutral, don't change immediately, if at all) 3.) and those that change because of the truths they heard and had been searching for.

If you really believe in what you are saying, have studied it out, and feel you are on a firm foundation, then by all means, PRESS FORWARD! Teach patiently and remember at the end of the elections you will have spread forth true principles. Sure some will be angry. Some will ignore you (but may later decide you might be on to something). And then there will be those that embrace what your principles. To me, this is what makes any political campaign worth the expense and time (if it is based on correct principles).

As for your LDS audience (and ours here in america)--sometimes we tend to be like this group of people (especially since mormons have become 'more accepted'):

1 Nephi 8:
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

These are what I call the "clingers." (The group afterwards, which stays at the tree and 'heeds not' the crowd, I call the "Pressers"). I go back and forth between being a clinger (afraid of what the world may think) and a presser (Forget the Crowd!). Sometimes, if I don't speak up, it's b/c I'm in a clinger phase. (And sometimes it's just b/c the Spirit says not to.) The HP who emailed seems to be worried about image (yours or the church in general) and may be operating from this 'clinger' orientation. He's not evil for doing so...its a weakness/trap that we often find ourselves in. But, unfortunately, we can be 'lost' if we don't correct our course. I try remember this when I encounter fellow church members (our recognize it in myself) showing signs of 'clinging'. We can better help each other when we have a charitable attitude about it rather than a defensive one.

Finally, when someone challenges what I believe, be it religious, political, economical, social, etc, I try to respond by asking a question. This does two things for me: It helps me 'simmer down' so I can think clearly and feel the spirit better. And it also helps me know the thoughts and perceptions behind that person's challenge or question.

“To ask and answer questions is at the heart of all learning and teaching. The Master asked, answered, and sometimes chose not to answer questions in his ministry. …

“Some questions invite inspiration. Great teachers ask those. That may take just a small change of words, an inflection of the voice. Here is a question that might not invite inspiration: ‘How is a true prophet recognized?’ That question invites an answer which is a list, drawn from memory, of the scriptures and the words of living prophets. …

“But we could ask the question this way, with just a small difference: ‘When have you felt you were in the presence of a prophet?’ That will invite individuals to search their memories for feelings. After asking, we might wait for a moment before calling on someone to respond. Even those who do not speak will be thinking of spiritual experiences. That will invite the Holy Ghost.”

Elder Henry B. Eyring

The Lord Will Multiply the Harvest (satellite broadcast address to religious educators in the Church Educational System, Feb. 6, 1998), 5–6.

Hope that is helpful. So for being so long-winded. I wish you all the best of luck and inspiration in your course!!

To English Saint......

Stick to your guns!

English Saint wrote:I'm a member of the church in Scotland. I'm standing in the General Election as a UKIP candidate. You may have heared of UKIP on Alex Jones - Lord Monckton is UKIP's candidate in a nearby constituency that's just up the road from me called Perthshire.

Anyway, I decided to 'come out' as a pro-gun libertarian in my statements to the local papers. I expect the locals to be a bit shocked, but I'm surprised that many LDS in Britain are so mainstream with their views.

Here's an email that I received from a HP in my ward:

Hello Kris,
I was reading a little about each of the candidates in the paper today and hope that you will not become known as "The Mormon candidate who wants guns on the streets."

Do you experience the same sort of anti-gun feeling from church members in Utah?

I'm even toying with the idea of openly criticising the NHS. Criticising the NHS in Britain is seen as socially unacceptable as urinating on a child's grave!

Rock on a UKIP candidate! Glad to see it. If I was a British citizen I would gladly run under their banner. I adore Nigel Farage and lot of the other elected member in the EU, other then Nikki Sinclair.

That being said. I think that it a lot of members don't like rocking the political boat. Just studying what happen with members in Hitler Germany and how they rolled over for that government and its policies, just to stay on that governments good side. Go with the flow is what a lot of them do, all we need to do is prey and read the scriptures. It is to bad.

I wish you luck!!!!

Thanks for all of your responses. I attended my first hustings of the election last night. Everyone in my constituency should now be aware of my pro-gun stance because I called for a relaxation of our gun control laws in Britain so that those without serious criminal convictions can obtain concealed carry permits - my statement was printed in the local paper. For those of you who haven't been to Britain before, my pro-gun stance will be seen by many as about extreme as it gets. I won't be silenced by the politically correct Marxists. In summarizing at the end of the hustings, the current MP of my constituency told the audience (mockingly) that if you want guns on the streets of Fife, then vote for UKIP.

My constituency is quite a difficult place to make any progress because it is socialist to the core. I enjoyed the hustings because I like rattling their cages. In Scotland we have four big controlled parties: Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, Labour and the Scottish Nationalists. They are all pro-EU, global warming alarmists.

My opening statemment consisted of outlining the three key issues that I'm standing on: (1) Defending/promoting individual rights and personal responsibility; (2) opposing the Government's phoney climate change agenda; and (3) rejecting European Union control.

English Saint wrote:Thanks for all of your responses. I attended my first hustings of the election last night. Everyone in my constituency should now be aware of my pro-gun stance because I called for a relaxation of our gun control laws in Britain so that those without serious criminal convictions can obtain concealed carry permits - my statement was printed in the local paper. For those of you who haven't been to Britain before, my pro-gun stance will be seen by many as about extreme as it gets. I won't be silenced by the politically correct Marxists. In summarizing at the end of the hustings, the current MP of my constituency told the audience (mockingly) that if you want guns on the streets of Fife, then vote for UKIP.

My constituency is quite a difficult place to make any progress because it is socialist to the core. I enjoyed the hustings because I like rattling their cages. In Scotland we have four big controlled parties: Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, Labour and the Scottish Nationalists. They are all pro-EU, global warming alarmists.

My opening statemment consisted of outlining the three key issues that I'm standing on: (1) Defending/promoting individual rights and personal responsibility; (2) opposing the Government's phoney climate change agenda; and (3) rejecting European Union control.

Sad how a generation ago you guys had great gun rights.

Continued.

The hustings was attended mostly by party activists who were there to cheer their own candidates.

There were the usual rowdy socialist party members. They heckled my when I said that UKIP wants to get rid of the human rights act. I told them that our rights don't come from government.

Another socialist commented on the government's 50% income tax rate for "super rich" who earn £150,000 a year. I couldn't resist chipping in with the statement that £150k is only upper middle class. I pointed out that the super rich are more likely to be worth £billions. He really didn't like that!

The audience was quite attentive when I spoke about the study in Spain where academics used government data to show that for every green job created, 2.2 real jobs were lost.

Right at the end of my closing statement one of the rowdy socialist women shouted "What about mass immigration? You racist!". I understand that pro-gun, pro-liberty Americans are accused of being racist too. I've got another hustings in a couple of weeks. Everyone knows that I'm a libertarian (they probably think I'm a right-wing Klan member), so I thinking of calling for a British Tea Party movement to oppose the controlled political parties.

Mackingster wrote:
Sad how a generation ago you guys had great gun rights.

This is a campaign that I support.

http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/

Would you Americans put up with this sort of crime?

http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/unarmedbrit.htm

Would you Americans put up with this sort of crime?

YES i am afraid they would because they already do.
these type of crimes happen all the time in the extream liberal controlled
states on the east and west coast
there are even those here in Utah that use the excuse that guns are evil and kill
people. therefore they need to be taken away.
there are alot of people both non-LDS and LDS alike that are afraid of guns. this i feel is because of the last 50 years of asault on gun ownership.
they dont understand that police are really just armed janitors. they stop very little crime. all they do is clean up the mess afterwards.
i personally feel that the Lord expects his priesthood holders to protect their wives and children from harm. so yes i have guns and have tried to teach my wife and children how to use them. i have bought a smith and wesson .357 for my wife for personal protection, and she loves it... my daughter works at a gun store, and i own about 40 guns. we as a family go out for a family shoot twice a year in the west desert where we shoot every type of gun we can, even fully automatic sub-machine guns 8) . i even own a nice AR-15 with a EO Tech holographic gun site. (the so called evil black gun) we have a good time...
most members i feel are ok with guns in my experience. but there are some who are new members that still have their old liberal Beliefs.

i even own a nice AR-15 with a EO Tech holographic gun site.

Nice! I love the Eotech! Its a great piece of glass.
I like you point about cops being there for the clean up....its so true.

The hustings was attended mostly by party activists who were there to cheer their own candidates.

There were the usual rowdy socialist party members. They heckled my when I said that UKIP wants to get rid of the human rights act. I told them that our rights don't come from government.

Another socialist commented on the government's 50% income tax rate for "super rich" who earn £150,000 a year. I couldn't resist chipping in with the statement that £150k is only upper middle class. I pointed out that the super rich are more likely to be worth £billions. He really didn't like that!

The audience was quite attentive when I spoke about the study in Spain where academics used government data to show that for every green job created, 2.2 real jobs were lost.

Right at the end of my closing statement one of the rowdy socialist women shouted "What about mass immigration? You racist!". I understand that pro-gun, pro-liberty Americans are accused of being racist too. I've got another hustings in a couple of weeks. Everyone knows that I'm a libertarian (they probably think I'm a right-wing Klan member), so I thinking of calling for a British Tea Party movement to oppose the controlled political parties.

I am in and out of the UK often to visit my in-laws. Every time we go we are shock about how bad it is getting. We will pray for your efforts as we know first hand how hard your battle will be.

Our ward is great. The elders decided to do a couples dinner a few months ago - the romantic evening started with shooting clay pigeons and then to the cultural hall for a dinner.

Our ward is great. The elders decided to do a couples dinner a few months ago - the evening started with a romantic evening of shooting clay pigeons and then to the cultural hall for a dinner.

thats Awesome 8) 8) 8)