LDS Freedom Forum

At least it is still strong growth, even though you are right, the growth rate appears to be dropping off.

No surprise, I expect when the sifting gets seriously underway, we will probably have a negative growth rate.

Then we have the prophesied time when people will "come to Zion" with no interest in the curch but just to escape the turmoil everywhere else. I cannot help but think if we are ready that we will see great conversions among them eventually.

Not to detract from the incredible work that took place during the 90's, but I think we all know the Church made an extra extra effort to focus more on conversion and less on baptisms over this last decade. Preach my gospel, the increased focus on member missionary work, raising the bar, ward missionary programs, etc. I bet if we looked at the overall numbers, reactivation, part member family baptisms, member referrals, etc., I bet the last decade was more well rounded. And that kind of work will have a long lasting impact.

Yeah I was a missionary in the 80's, an honest one, and you really really don't want to know some of the things that went on. I was in Tokyo North and the things I heard and saw from Tokyo South mission...wow. I mean we had problems of our own...but the stories I heard from the late 70s and early 80s...trust me you do not want to know.

What was funny was I got home and read an article written by a GA about the "miracles that were being performed in the Tokyo South Mission" and I was like yeah, I wonder if he knows how much of that was out and out fraud? Baptismal records filled out from gravestones...."come join the American club, we just have an ordinance that we need to perform..." and worse.

The worst I heard were soccer teams organized by the Elder's for kids in South America. The Elders would have the kids take a "bath" before playing a game.

DrJones wrote: The March 2010 Ensign provides data on the total Church membership at the end of the decade. Starting with 1929, I extract from the published data the INCREASE in membership over each decade:

1929-1939 139,876
1939-1949 275,143
1949-1959 537.417
1959-1969 1,191,368
1969-1979 1,596,665
1979-1989 2,904,323
1989-1999 3,444,540
1999-2009 2,997,667

The growth is impressive, but evidently stopped increasing during 1999-2009. Why, I don't know. But I think that we should all re-double our efforts and help the Lord's work move forward. I will try.

Also, I will be interested in the growth this past year -- which should be announced in General Conference in just under two weeks. A yearly growth of 250,000 equals a growth of 3 million over a decade.

When we stop soft peddling the gospel, the growth will explode. We're too busy trying to make friends with the world rather than making friends with God. When we start taking the book of mormon seriously, the condemnation will be lifted, and we will see huge conversion rates. Until then, I expect growth rates will continue to shrink.

"Sometimes we LDS members seem not as concerned about being the light of the world as being lit up in the lights of the world".

ithink wrote:

DrJones wrote: The March 2010 Ensign provides data on the total Church membership at the end of the decade. Starting with 1929, I extract from the published data the INCREASE in membership over each decade:

1929-1939 139,876
1939-1949 275,143
1949-1959 537.417
1959-1969 1,191,368
1969-1979 1,596,665
1979-1989 2,904,323
1989-1999 3,444,540
1999-2009 2,997,667

The growth is impressive, but evidently stopped increasing during 1999-2009. Why, I don't know. But I think that we should all re-double our efforts and help the Lord's work move forward. I will try.

Also, I will be interested in the growth this past year -- which should be announced in General Conference in just under two weeks. A yearly growth of 250,000 equals a growth of 3 million over a decade.

When we stop soft peddling the gospel, the growth will explode. We're too busy trying to make friends with the world rather than making friends with God. When we start taking the book of mormon seriously, the condemnation will be lifted, and we will see huge conversion rates. Until then, I expect growth rates will continue to shrink.

"Sometimes we LDS members seem not as concerned about being the light of the world as being lit up in the lights of the world".

ithink,

I concur with this statement 100%. In my conversations, the ones who get it, and who often express concern about where the membership seems to be, all make similar statements. Always talking about how we seem so afraid of offending people, that the Gospel is not really taught. But there is a fine line. So many of the apostates think in much the same way. They then talked themselves out of the church and into thier own churches.

Thanks,
Shawn

Interesting ideas on this thread. Here's my take on a possible cause for the decline: I served a mission between 1998-2000, and that seems to be the pivotal point toward decline. Apparently, the church has yet to recover from my "service."

I am concerned about the downward trend, and fully agree that we "should all re-double our efforts and help the Lord's work move forward." "Oh that I were an angel," but I ought to be content to learn and follow the Lord's will for me today, praying for missionary opportunities right where I am.

Actually, my husband and I visited with several missionaries in the SL valley this afternoon and the work is going very well, especially with the Spanish-speaking missionaries. In fact, in my stake, the Spanish branch recently became a ward and it has a fairly large congregation.

DrJones wrote: The March 2010 Ensign provides data on the total Church membership at the end of the decade. Starting with 1929, I extract from the published data the INCREASE in membership over each decade:

1929-1939 139,876
1939-1949 275,143
1949-1959 537.417
1959-1969 1,191,368
1969-1979 1,596,665
1979-1989 2,904,323
1989-1999 3,444,540
1999-2009 2,997,667

The growth is impressive, but evidently stopped increasing during 1999-2009. Why, I don't know. But I think that we should all re-double our efforts and help the Lord's work move forward. I will try.

Also, I will be interested in the growth this past year -- which should be announced in General Conference in just under two weeks. A yearly growth of 250,000 equals a growth of 3 million over a decade.

The results are in:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... conference

Total Church membership - 13,824,854
New children of record during 2009 - 119,722
Converts baptized during 2009 - 280,106

I think it's sad that people get so focused on meeting numbers that they baptize people who are not ready. We've been working on getting my son's friend to church for a long time... we had him coming almost every week with us and then some members of the ward got concerned that he'd turned nine and wasn't baptized. I'm sure they were well meaning, but between these members of the ward and the missionaries they pressured him when he wasn't ready. We didn't know any of it was going on but one week we took him to church and a woman in the ward was absolutely freaking out about us sitting on the couch in the foyer that day saying he needed to sit with her because the missionaries were looking for him. She wouldn't leave us alone for a good fifteen minutes about it and he has only been back to church once since then - with her the day after his baptism. At his baptism one of them said to my husband "what a relief" as if they now could wash their hands of the situation. We bit our tongues, but maybe we shouldn't have. This kid was obviously really turned off, and it will probably take us a long time to get back to where we were with him.

ChelC wrote:I think it's sad that people get so focused on meeting numbers that they baptize people who are not ready. We've been working on getting my son's friend to church for a long time... we had him coming almost every week with us and then some members of the ward got concerned that he'd turned nine and wasn't baptized. I'm sure they were well meaning, but between these members of the ward and the missionaries they pressured him when he wasn't ready. We didn't know any of it was going on but one week we took him to church and a woman in the ward was absolutely freaking out about us sitting on the couch in the foyer that day saying he needed to sit with her because the missionaries were looking for him. She wouldn't leave us alone for a good fifteen minutes about it and he has only been back to church once since then - with her the day after his baptism. At his baptism one of them said to my husband "what a relief" as if they now could wash their hands of the situation. We bit our tongues, but maybe we shouldn't have. This kid was obviously really turned off, and it will probably take us a long time to get back to where we were with him.

@ChelC - That is a tragic situation indeed. I hope things work out for him.
I agree 100% that it is the spiritual rebirth, conversion, ongoing blessings, and Eternal Life of each individual soul (new converts and the rest of us) that matters.

At the same time, I feel this discussion of "numbers" helps us see changes and trends in the work, or be they "signs." Of course, we hope and should work to ensure that each of those new convert numbers represents someone who was properly shepherded into the fold (though, the rate at which they fall away would indicate otherwise). Every loss is saddening, especially when we are personally involved in the situation, as you were. Numbers mean NOTHING if they don't represent one life given over to the ONE.

For instance, I have a good friend, a former roommate, who attends church, pays a full tithing, is invited to help home teach with companionships in his ward, and lives many standards far better than the avera... well, uh... me. He has some real issues he is trying to work through, and some of that healing may take a while. Some speak flippantly about baptism and don't show any real interest in his soul. Those of us who are among his better friends also kid him about baptism (plotting to "dunk him" on a river rafting trip, etc.), but at the end of the day, the jokes are few compared to the expressions of genuine love and concern for him. I have made it abundantly clear that I hope he chooses to receive baptism, and I have also made it clear that I wouldn't want him to choose baptism for any other reason, but that of real intent, desire, and testimony. He is a friend whom I esteem to be further along the path in many regards than I am; I have seen glimpses into the kind of heart he has. I trust the Lord will guide my friend as far as my friend will be guided, and I hope I can repent and live so that my words will be carried by the Spirit with greater power and influence.

Well, I hope those who were taught by us back in the late 70's actually learned something and helped grow the church. I noticed that East LA now has a Spanish Stake and it was a ward when I served there.

Dad grew up in the Spokane branch and now a temple is there. Mom grew up in the Ellensburg, WA branch and now 3 wards are there.

The branch in Unalaska Alaska (Aleutian chain) started in our home there - after I served in East LA.

I hope the Norwalk CT branches (Spanish and English) are now wards. There certainly were lots of folks who were accepting the gospel there back before 9/11 occurred across the bay when I was serving there.

My wife would still like to serve a mission some day.

Is the growth slowing? Yes. Lucifer is not sleeping at the wheel, like we seem to have done.

Are we valiant in the faith? Do we stand up and hold our head high for truth and honesty?

more incredible, is, we have increased the number of missionaries, we don't want baptisms, we want CONVERTS.......if new "converts" we truly converted, the church would grow unbelieveable. Fellowshipping is important, but to a true convert?

PBS ran "The Mormons" rerun on TV Tuesday night.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

Does it make a difference, more than just creating "Buzz"?

DrJones wrote: Also, I will be interested in the growth this past year -- which should be announced in General Conference in just under two weeks. A yearly growth of 250,000 equals a growth of 3 million over a decade.[/b]

The more the Church refuses, for whatever reason, to promote liberty like McKay and Benson and Clark did the more difficult I find it to do missionary work. I often get: "Your church is just another a 501(c)(3) government controlled church that will not let people that fight socialism to have temple recommends. Why would I join?"

When BYU had Harry Reid speak and essentially fired you and gave a standing ovation to the Fascist liar murderer Dick Cheney, people that believe like I do politically wanted no more to do with the Church. That Cheney thing and what happened to you at BYU REALLY put a cramp in any of my missionary work. I used to be able to promote the Church on many political Email Groups but not after you were silenced and they cheered that murdering constitutional violating traitor.

I had a good friend that was very close to being baptized and now he will not even discuss it with me. And the promoting of protecting Illegals in the USA HURT BAD! A wonderful couple that moved to Nevada just to be around me because we are such good friends and political activists asked me to stop promoting the Church with them for the same reasons. I used to get about a baptism a year and now my friends totally reject the Church.

3 Ne. 14: 20 Wherefore, by their afruits ye shall know them.

I do not know what to say to my friends. Do you?

ChelC wrote:I think it's sad that people get so focused on meeting numbers that they baptize people who are not ready. We've been working on getting my son's friend to church for a long time... we had him coming almost every week with us and then some members of the ward got concerned that he'd turned nine and wasn't baptized. I'm sure they were well meaning, but between these members of the ward and the missionaries they pressured him when he wasn't ready. We didn't know any of it was going on but one week we took him to church and a woman in the ward was absolutely freaking out about us sitting on the couch in the foyer that day saying he needed to sit with her because the missionaries were looking for him. She wouldn't leave us alone for a good fifteen minutes about it and he has only been back to church once since then - with her the day after his baptism. At his baptism one of them said to my husband "what a relief" as if they now could wash their hands of the situation. We bit our tongues, but maybe we shouldn't have. This kid was obviously really turned off, and it will probably take us a long time to get back to where we were with him.

I FEEL your pain. More than you can ever know.

My wife calls it dunk em' and leave em'.

Original_Intent wrote:At least it is still strong growth, even though you are right, the growth rate appears to be dropping off.

No surprise, I expect when the sifting gets seriously underway, we will probably have a negative growth rate.

Then we have the prophesied time when people will "come to Zion" with no interest in the curch but just to escape the turmoil everywhere else. I cannot help but think if we are ready that we will see great conversions among them eventually.

That's true. It was in 1997 when I was on my mission that the change was made to not immediately do a confirmation, resulting in a delay in the addition of the individual to the records of the church. That alone could account for a good chunk of the decrease from 1999-2009 right there.

We could see more slowing, or we could see explosive growth especially as the Church increasingly becomes a source of temporal refuge for people in economic crisis. I thought it was interesting that Elder Uchdorf referred to the situation in post-war Germany where some members looked down on new converts whom they perceived has having come to the church merely for the welfare provisions.

Wiikwajio wrote:

DrJones wrote: Also, I will be interested in the growth this past year -- which should be announced in General Conference in just under two weeks. A yearly growth of 250,000 equals a growth of 3 million over a decade.[/b]

The more the Church refuses, for whatever reason, to promote liberty like McKay and Benson and Clark did the more difficult I find it to do missionary work. I often get: "Your church is just another a 501(c)(3) government controlled church that will not let people that fight socialism to have temple recommends. Why would I join?"

When BYU had Harry Reid speak and essentially fired you and gave a standing ovation to the Fascist liar murderer Dick Cheney, people that believe like I do politically wanted no more to do with the Church. That Cheney thing and what happened to you at BYU REALLY put a cramp in any of my missionary work. I used to be able to promote the Church on many political Email Groups but not after you were silenced and they cheered that murdering constitutional violating traitor.

I had a good friend that was very close to being baptized and now he will not even discuss it with me. And the promoting of protecting Illegals in the USA HURT BAD! A wonderful couple that moved to Nevada just to be around me because we are such good friends and political activists asked me to stop promoting the Church with them for the same reasons. I used to get about a baptism a year and now my friends totally reject the Church.

3 Ne. 14: 20 Wherefore, by their afruits ye shall know them.

I do not know what to say to my friends. Do you?

I'm in the same boat. I have friends that barely give me the time of day after some violations by church leaders of the federal election act here in Canada. In the efforts of some to "protect" the church, they end up actually hurting it.

ithink wrote: I'm in the same boat. I have friends that barely give me the time of day after some violations by church leaders of the federal election act here in Canada. In the efforts of some to "protect" the church, they end up actually hurting it.

We are to do missionary work among our friends. My friends are all non-filers and IRS fighter and Marxism haters. They can hardly believe I have not quit the Church let alone trying to convert them. I have been told several times that they don't want to have to fight their church and the government. They also ask why the members con't follow the words of the prophets concerning Socialism. I tell them I know the Gospel is true but agree that the membership has embraced the very things the prophets told us would steal our liberty.

My son absolutely refuses to go to church because of what they did to him in his ward. He said that until the members stop lending aid, encouragement and sympathy to blatant Marxism he will continue to refuse to go. He cannot stand to be surrounded by war loving, troop supporting, Social Security taking, Marxist tithe payers.

I do not know what to say to him. He is right from everything I can see.

Everything all my friends and family say to me about the main body of Church membership I have to admit are true. I have nothing to point to to say: But look...

So I am totally frustrated with any attempts at missionary work to my friends. I have to do all I can right now to just hold on the Gospel and try not feel that the words of the angel to Alma the younger are coming true again. "This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people."

Wiikwajio wrote: ...I do not know what to say to him. He is right from everything I can see...

@Wiikwajio I appreciate your posts, and I am not trying to invoke your ire but offer encouragement, or perhaps, some words that might help you with your son...
A wonderful soul who has suffered much at the hands of church members once told me something to this effect: "My faith and conviction is with Christ, and I believe Him when He says this (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) is His church, so I attend and partake of the blessings therein - period. Never let another person, place, thought, thing -- ANYTHING -- come between you and your righteous devotion to Christ and His church. Be humble enough to realize that Christ holds the reigns, and He will direct the church for His purposes. Be humble enough to choose peaceful pursuasion and long-suffering over righteous indignation and judgment. Christ will send forth His destroying angels, and you [speaking to me at the time] are not a destroying angel -- they are in heaven; you are here. You are called to be an example of the believers and to the believers. Pray to know of the Lord, how He would like to use you -- in mildness -- to bless and heal the lives of His children."
I hope the very best for your son. He may be 1000% the man that I am, as I am pretty weak sauce in most things, so I hope you and he do not count this as criticism or scorn -- merely an attempt to offer some words of encouragement.

Wiikwajio wrote:

ithink wrote: I'm in the same boat. I have friends that barely give me the time of day after some violations by church leaders of the federal election act here in Canada. In the efforts of some to "protect" the church, they end up actually hurting it.

We are to do missionary work among our friends. My friends are all non-filers and IRS fighter and Marxism haters. They can hardly believe I have not quit the Church let alone trying to convert them. I have been told several times that they don't want to have to fight their church and the government. They also ask why the members con't follow the words of the prophets concerning Socialism. I tell them I know the Gospel is true but agree that the membership has embraced the very things the prophets told us would steal our liberty.

My son absolutely refuses to go to church because of what they did to him in his ward. He said that until the members stop lending aid, encouragement and sympathy to blatant Marxism he will continue to refuse to go. He cannot stand to be surrounded by war loving, troop supporting, Social Security taking, Marxist tithe payers.

I do not know what to say to him. He is right from everything I can see.

Everything all my friends and family say to me about the main body of Church membership I have to admit are true. I have nothing to point to to say: But look...

So I am totally frustrated with any attempts at missionary work to my friends. I have to do all I can right now to just hold on the Gospel and try not feel that the words of the angel to Alma the younger are coming true again. "This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people."

If you go to church because of what the members do or don't do then you are going for the wrong reason. I wish you the best with your son as he is just finding excuses not to go and will always do so until he gains a testimony of the gospel of Christ. Hopefully it's not all of your friends that are persecuting you for going to church as you may want to get some new friends if that is the case. It's one thing to do missionary work but another if your friends start changing you.

e-eye wrote:If you go to church because of what the members do or don't do then you are going for the wrong reason. I wish you the best with your son as he is just finding excuses not to go and will always do so until he gains a testimony of the gospel of Christ. Hopefully it's not all of your friends that are persecuting you for going to church as you may want to get some new friends if that is the case. It's one thing to do missionary work but another if your friends start changing you.

My brother is a former bishop, Stake High Counsel member etc.etc. The perfect "popular principle" Mormon while at the same time being a champion warrior against Marxism. He said the same basic things to me. What the other members do do not matter etc. etc.

I asked him what he would do if his ward was 75% filled with male and female strippers from the local clubs. Not prostitutes. Just exotic dancers. (Remember you can have a temple recommend if you own a liquor distribution company and do wine tastings (just part of doing business) or work in gaming (which includes alcohol sales and topless reviews and naked swimming pools, or if you are an IRS agent or a CIA agent.) What if these exotic dancers talked about supporting their groups and how their lifestyle was uplifting during prayers and testimony meetings? How about if the gave their testimonies how their work had strengthened their testimonies? What if one of the male exotic dancers became the Bishop?

I told him that I have never once heard that exotic dancers were a major threat to the Church but...

First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942
False Political Isms
Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies.

This we feel we can definitely say, that unless the people of America forsake the sins and the errors, political and otherwise, of which they are now guilty and return to the practice of the great fundamental principles of Christianity, and of Constitutional government, there will be no exaltation for them spiritually Faithfully yours, /s/ Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay. (First Presidency letter to U.S. Treasury, September 30, 1941 AD)

The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth. . . .The entire concept and philosophy of Communism is diametrically opposed to everything for which the Church stands... David O. McKay, Conference Report, April 9, 1966, pp. 109-10.

I get to hear them pray for American soldiers that are spreading American Fascism throughout the world. I get to hear about their children going to Marxist public schools and the blessing that they receive from free public education. I get to hear how wonderful these government benefits are. I get to hear how they get federal benefits and grants. I get to hear about Social Security and Medicare. I get to hear about how children are letting the government care for the parents. And all the while the words of McKay go through my brain: "We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth"

So since Ben Franklin was a serial adulterer that used to regularly attend French underground Sex Clubs but was also the key in getting France to come to the aid of the American Revolution and was made a High Priest after he died, why should I feel more comfortable about being constantly surrounded by Marxists, Fascists and Socialists than he would be to be surrounded by exotic dancers at church?

He has not broached the subject since that day?

Would you like to discuss it honestly?

And my son has a VERY strong testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith but he also firmly believes that the Church, not the gospel, should be judged by its members (By their fruits they shall be known). And remember: Mosiah 27:13 Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.

My son is well aware of Franklin and the warnings concerning Marxism and not being able to have spiritual exaltation if you support the New Deal programs like 95% of members do. I will compare my son's life to any "good Mormon" that only practices the "popular principles," any day of the week.

What was that prophetic warning again? "We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth" And yet our temples are filled to overflowing with practicing socialists.

And No. I am not saying that the leadership is wrong or responsible for this. I am just saying that I have great difficulty feeling comfortable or even spiritual while surrounded by people that support, by their actions, the "greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth." It is, without question, a weakness I have. I am trying to learn how to deal with it and just started to re-attend church now that I am a bit more healthy (but not in my ward where I would be treated like the scum anti-Marxsit that I am).

Have you ever noticed how nice members treat visitors? "Just visiting" is working out quite nice for now.