An LDS 9/11

[mackej]

Thanks for bringing this topic up, Mahonri. I think it definitely merits further discussion. Not only because we're supposedly all members of the Church on this forum, but also because we're strong believers in freedom. Freedom includes the right to speak one's mind, and also to study the truth of all things, even those things that some would like to remain in the dark.

[e-eye]

I was thinking, is there is an LDS "9/11"? Are there Gospel topics you just don't talk about in Church for the same reasons you can't talk about 9/11 in the mainstream media?[...]

FOLLOW UP
Why is it taboo? Is it good that it is taboo and why?

To continue the 9/11 analogy, it is taboo to suggest that the American government or America in general could be the bad guy. As for why it is taboo, it's because it challenges a dogmatic worldview in which America is innately good and can therefore only do good. As for whether it is good for it to be taboo I would say no. Many people do not look into 9/11 only because it does not coincide with their dogmatic beliefs. They are more than willing to reject facts merely on the basis that they don't fit into their beliefs because their beliefs were not based on facts to begin with. "America is good and cannot do bad (on that large of a scale). If the government were involved in 9/11 it would no longer be good so it must not be true and so I will reject anything that points to that." If people looked at the facts and based their beliefs off of the facts rather than the other way around they would find very good reason to at least consider government involvement in 9/11.

To apply the analogy to the church, from what I have seen, those who are threatened by taboo topics are only threatened because it challenges some aspect of their dogmatic beliefs. Perhaps one that would be comparable to the US being innately good and therefore it being impossible for it to do bad would be "The Church is true and therefore anything the church does is good." The differnence here would be that while the initial premise may be true, the conclusion does not follow, while the previous example's premise (America) is not true and even if it were the conclusion still would not necessarily follow. From my experience, it is taboo to suggest that anything the prophet/church has done may not have been correct/inspired because that challenges so many people's dogmatic belief that the church can't do anything wrong, and like the example in the analogy, I do not think that is a good thing. Our deepest loyalty should be to the truth, and so we should not be afraid to consider facts. Much understanding is lost because we fail to consider those aspects of the church/church history that may not coincide with our dogmatic beliefs.

I think it's taboo because it's based upone speculation. On an outside forum like this I think it is okay to try and understand conspiracy theories to a point as long as our lives are not consumed by them but in a church setting I don't think it is wise to bring the topic up because it is so speculative.

[e-eye]

My point is this, when we think milk is not what we need anymore and all we need is meat that should be a warning sign that we need to go back to milk. Because all the saving principles are in the milk, if that gets boring or does not taste good anymore there is something out of line we need to fix. For in the basics is all the wonder and beauty of the Gospel. Knowing the deeper stuff will not save us if we are not really doing the basics. I think in the basics is where we will find the true mysteries

I agree 100%. I look at it this way. You can get the necessary suppliments from milk to survive, and when you add some meat you are healthier, but when you live on meat alone you die of thirst.

[Mahonri]

My point is this, when we think milk is not what we need anymore and all we need is meat that should be a warning sign that we need to go back to milk. Because all the saving principles are in the milk, if that gets boring or does not taste good anymore there is something out of line we need to fix. For in the basics is all the wonder and beauty of the Gospel. Knowing the deeper stuff will not save us if we are not really doing the basics. I think in the basics is where we will find the true mysteries

I agree 100%. I look at it this way. You can get the necessary suppliments from milk to survive, and when you add some meat you are healthier, but when you live on meat alone you die of thirst.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic

[Mackingster]

I also think of thing that is taboo is relating the concept of Liberty to the modern times. In church it usually is just referenced in scriptures and talked about as a theoretical subject like what you would do in a philosophy class in collage.

Nothing is usually referenced to what has happened in the modern days and what to watch for and expect in our country when it comes to Liberties. I have only had one Sunday school teacher reference was happening in our modern times and Liberty. And just one priesthood adviser. And both of them were in the same ward. Go figure.

Not even in the ward I grew up in most of my life. A military ward would touch this subject. Its a sad statement.

[ndjili]

I live in a stake with very aware and in tune people. I really dont think any subject is taboo..I think it's how people approach subjects that make people uninterested.

[patriotsaint]

Here's a great essay from M. Catherine Thomas dealing in part, with this subject.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... ts/?id=111


Too often in the Church we act like crabs in a box. If you've ever watched them, any time one tries to climb out the rest will pull him/her back down. If we don't understand a doctrine or principle, we call it a "mystery" and refuse to entertain the idea that it might be something worth knowing and in the process, discourage others from obtaining greater knowledge.

"Lingering in the foothills of spiritual experience" as Sister Thomas terms it, is not good or desirable. The scriptures do not say anywhere that we are to feed on milk forever. Just as a child progresses to digesting meat, so we need to progress spiritually to the point where we can digest more difficult material. That is the point Paul is making.......not that we should be perpetual babes drinking milk.

Do the scriptures not say Christ's followers can work miracles as great as the ones He performed? Are we not counselled to seek the best gifts? Do we not seek after anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy? Don't we read in Alma that it is given to many to know the mysteries of God?

If milk was all we needed or all the Father wanted us to have, why give the key to the ministering of angels on earth? Why would Abraham be taught about the organization of heavenly bodies and moses about all the Lord's creations? Surely none of these things are necessary for salvation right?

It irritates me that this debate even exists. The perpetual drinkers of milk always seem to be shouting down those that want to know everything that the Spirit, angels, the Son or the Father can teach them.

[Mark]

Here's a great essay from M. Catherine Thomas dealing in part, with this subject.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... ts/?id=111


Too often in the Church we act like crabs in a box. If you've ever watched them, any time one tries to climb out the rest will pull him/her back down. If we don't understand a doctrine or principle, we call it a "mystery" and refuse to entertain the idea that it might be something worth knowing.

"Lingering in the foothills of spiritual progression" as Sister Thomas terms it, is not good or desirable. The scriptures do not say anywhere that we are to feed on milk forever. Just as a child progresses to digesting meat, so we need to progress spiritually to the point where we can digest more difficult material. That is the point Paul is making.......not that we should be perpetual babes drinking milk.

Do the scriptures not say Christ's followers can work miracles as great as the ones He performed? Are we not counselled to seek the best gifts? Do we not seek after anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy? Don't we read in Alma that it is given to many to know the mysteries of God?

If milk was all we needed or all the Father wanted us to have, why give the key to the ministering of angels on earth? Why would Abraham be taught about the organization of heavenly bodies and moses about all the Lord's creations? Surely none of these things are necessary for salvation right?

It irritates me that this debate even exists. The perpetual drinkers of milk always seem to be shouting down those that want to know everything that the Spirit, angels, the Son or the Father can teach them.

I have been very impressed with Sis. Thomas writings patriot. She is a very insightful individual. Her book Spiritual Lightning was just excellent material. I think one who hungers for greater light and knowledge has to find a happy medium in their dealings with other Saints who may not have the desire to search for and digest meat. The principle of charity and the other gifts of the spirit must be practiced with these individuals who are not yet prepared for additoinal spiritual journeys or the spirit will become offended and mans wisdom will take control. We must learn to practice those Christ Like traits now if we intend on living into the eternities with other individuals who have mastered those same traits.

[patriotsaint]

I have been very impressed with Sis. Thomas writings patriot. She is a very insightful individual. Her book Spiritual Lightning was just excellent material. I think one who hungers for greater light and knowledge has to find a happy medium in their dealings with other Saints who may not have the desire to search for and digest meat. The principle of charity and the other gifts of the spirit must be practiced with these individuals who are not yet prepared for additoinal spiritual journeys or the spirit will become offended and mans wisdom will take control. We must learn to practice those Christ Like traits now if we intend on living into the eternities with other individuals who have mastered those same traits.

You are absolutely right Mark. We must not neglect the "weightier matters" as the Savior taught. Taking care of those matters is what will keep us grounded and true as we bite off and digest some of the meatier aspects of the Gospel. (is meatier a word? )

[Mark]

I have been very impressed with Sis. Thomas writings patriot. She is a very insightful individual. Her book Spiritual Lightning was just excellent material. I think one who hungers for greater light and knowledge has to find a happy medium in their dealings with other Saints who may not have the desire to search for and digest meat. The principle of charity and the other gifts of the spirit must be practiced with these individuals who are not yet prepared for additoinal spiritual journeys or the spirit will become offended and mans wisdom will take control. We must learn to practice those Christ Like traits now if we intend on living into the eternities with other individuals who have mastered those same traits.

You are absolutely right Mark. We must not neglect the "weightier matters" as the Savior taught. Taking care of those matters is what will keep us grounded and true as we bite off and digest some of the meatier aspects of the Gospel. (is meatier a word? )

Weightier matters indeed patriot. Yesterday in gospel essentials a new member said that the most important thing we can be doing to show the Lord our love for Him is to display a loving and caring attitude each day toward all his children regardless of their circumstance and struggles in life. I heartily agree! Meatier sounds good to me. If I can develop charity in my heart for all I don't think anything else would be meatier for me to learn and practice.

[ShawnC]

Here's a great essay from M. Catherine Thomas dealing in part, with this subject.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... ts/?id=111


Too often in the Church we act like crabs in a box. If you've ever watched them, any time one tries to climb out the rest will pull him/her back down. If we don't understand a doctrine or principle, we call it a "mystery" and refuse to entertain the idea that it might be something worth knowing.

"Lingering in the foothills of spiritual progression" as Sister Thomas terms it, is not good or desirable. The scriptures do not say anywhere that we are to feed on milk forever. Just as a child progresses to digesting meat, so we need to progress spiritually to the point where we can digest more difficult material. That is the point Paul is making.......not that we should be perpetual babes drinking milk.

Do the scriptures not say Christ's followers can work miracles as great as the ones He performed? Are we not counselled to seek the best gifts? Do we not seek after anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy? Don't we read in Alma that it is given to many to know the mysteries of God?

If milk was all we needed or all the Father wanted us to have, why give the key to the ministering of angels on earth? Why would Abraham be taught about the organization of heavenly bodies and moses about all the Lord's creations? Surely none of these things are necessary for salvation right?

It irritates me that this debate even exists. The perpetual drinkers of milk always seem to be shouting down those that want to know everything that the Spirit, angels, the Son or the Father can teach them.

I have been very impressed with Sis. Thomas writings patriot. She is a very insightful individual. Her book Spiritual Lightning was just excellent material. I think one who hungers for greater light and knowledge has to find a happy medium in their dealings with other Saints who may not have the desire to search for and digest meat. The principle of charity and the other gifts of the spirit must be practiced with these individuals who are not yet prepared for additoinal spiritual journeys or the spirit will become offended and mans wisdom will take control. We must learn to practice those Christ Like traits now if we intend on living into the eternities with other individuals who have mastered those same traits.

Best response to this subject I have read. Good on you Mark.

[reese]

I did not mean for this to turn into a gripe session.

I meant to have a general discussion of why are they taboo, and should they be? Why or why not, and if not what would be good to do about it.

Sounds good to me.

I want to know what you all think about the word of wisdom. The wording of the scriptures leaves little room for doubt about what the Lord meant. Did he only mean it to apply until refridgeration was invented? I am leaning more towards believing that he meant it reguardless of refridgeration. I'm quite interested in knowing this because there is a very hefty promise at the end of that section about being saved from the destrying angel. I would like to have that protection, or is that a figurative promise, not literal?

[Mahonri]

I did not mean for this to turn into a gripe session.

I meant to have a general discussion of why are they taboo, and should they be? Why or why not, and if not what would be good to do about it.

Sounds good to me.

I want to know what you all think about the word of wisdom. The wording of the scriptures leaves little room for doubt about what the Lord meant. Did he only mean it to apply until refridgeration was invented? I am leaning more towards believing that he meant it reguardless of refridgeration. I'm quite interested in knowing this because there is a very hefty promise at the end of that section about being saved from the destrying angel. I would like to have that protection, or is that a figurative promise, not literal?

Verse 4 tells us why He gave us the word of wisdom. My belief is any other reason than that, is speculation.

[creator]

I want to know what you all think about the word of wisdom. The wording of the scriptures leaves little room for doubt about what the Lord meant. Did he only mean it to apply until refridgeration was invented? I am leaning more towards believing that he meant it reguardless of refridgeration. I'm quite interested in knowing this because there is a very hefty promise at the end of that section about being saved from the destrying angel. I would like to have that protection, or is that a figurative promise, not literal?

Start a new, separate discussion on the Word of Wisdom rather than hijacking this thread. I think it would make for an interesting discussion, I certainly have some insights I'd like to contribute.