Respector of persons?

[Squally]

Is the Lord a respector of persons or their wealth, prestige, status, beauty, talents?

I have found wealth and learning/degrees, position/prestige are all quite highly repected (repector of persons) and are used to put one brother above another in the world of competition we live in and quite often this goes on even within wards and stakes. Some people are of greater "value" than others. We do this with callings too, giving a higher level of respect/prestige to some than others.

So do the poor persecute the rich? Do the weak persecute the powerful? I have heard and seen some comments on another thread defending the rich and powerful telling us that he poor should not envy the rich. While this is a true teaching, I have personally found the persecution and pride comes more often from those staring down at others, and not often the other way around. That is why I beleive the Lord warns the rich, and the saducees and pharisee types.

This is usually how it works, those "above" are usually tempted to look down on others, not the other way around! I have an wonderful son who gets straight A's and is highly talented. I do not percieve him as greater than my other children who do not; actually, I realize that some things are quite easy for him. He is only doing what he has been blessed to be capable of doing. My other son has been afflicted with autism. My autistic son does in many ways more with what he has been given, but in the world it is not evident at all; everything he does he fights for, nothing comes very easily.

I love both my sons the same. One is not better than the other to me. I think this is a little bit like how the Lord sees it with us as his children being each given such different circumstances here on earth. He is a perfect judge and understands us each with perfect love. We as members of the church aren't as good at judging perfectly.

Job while being extremely afflicted was persecuted, not praised because the Lord would choose him to be tried due to his faithfulness, most people cannot understand our trials and afflictions, and sometimes even we like Job don't understand why until the affliction has passed.

We really can't see what people really are and will be when all the afflictions in this life are taken.

Those we stand above in our percieved stature may be the mighty and strong among us. I believe God cares most about the heart.

[kathyn]

Squally, it seems to me what you are describing is pride. This is one of the most warned about sins in the Book of Mormon.

Those we stand above in our percieved stature may be the mighty and strong among us. I believe God cares most about the heart.

You got that exactly right.

[ShawnC]

I gotta chime in. Sometimes on this forum, I find people who think a lot like me. Squally seems to be one of those. These things have been touched on, but I feel you are correct. It's funny to me when people talk about something in the world, some kind of worldly attribute and then say in a hushed tone, "I see it even in the Church". That to me says they either think the church is infallible, and being infiltrated by heathens, or that they recognize that most within the church are no longer "peculiar people".

Every Bishop or SP that I have had save 1 Bishop only, have been very rich men. I've heard many excuses from those who seemingly don't understand even what they are saying that, "The Lord made them rich because theya re righteous!"

From my perspective, worldly status is always a factor in calling them to these positions. Not the only factor, but is always included. I respect most of them tremendously. I also feel that others of less means could do just as good, if not better of a job, simply because of their ability to relate to and have empathy for us common rank and file members who are not so rich. I hope that doesn't sound to harsh as it's not intended that way.

To me, the Book of Mormon is so full of examples of abhorring riches and seeking to humbly follow the Lord, and seek for the truth, no matter where they lead. I suppose pride really is the stumbling block of Zion.

D&C 35:13 Wherefore, I call upon the weak things of the world, those who are unlearned and despised, to thrash the nations by the power of my Spirit;

Shawn

[SmallFarm]

This is not completely on subject but I'm reminded of something my mom told me when these issues were causing me to question the church. Sometimes the men who are called into leadership positions beacuase the have need of learning.

[ChelC]

Sometimes they are called into leadership positions because of talents they possess. Natural leaders are more likely to be financially successful. While I don't believe that being righteous means the Lord will make you rich, it is true that following the teachings of the prophet is more likely to make you stay afloat during tough times and more likely to help you to be frugal and successful financially over the long haul. Sometimes they are called because of the biases held by members. For example, we were in mostly military wards growing up and sometimes it really did cause conflict for those in lower rank to be in positions above those of higher rank, because of the weaknesses of men. In the same way, the Lord may see that the members of the church are more likely to obey people of a certain status. Just a thought. I don't think the Lord would call someone because of their social/financial standing and I don't think your social or financial standing is a measure of your righteousness - but I don't think the Lord always calls the most righteous to leadership positions either (evidenced by the fact that I was in the R.S. Presidency at one of the weakest points of my life). I think the Lord calls the person to leadership who is best likely to accomplish His goals - whatever they might be.

[Jason]

Some times it just flat takes money to operate....and have freedom to fulfill church obligations....that couldn't happen any other way. My sister-in-law's father is one of the seventy. He was able to sell his stake in an accounting firm....move the family to south america to be mission president for three years....come back...buy back in....then serve several other positions....ultimately selling stake (early retirement requested by church) to now serve in his current position.

[kgrigio]

Jason, I agree with what you just said.

Squally, when you say

I have personally found the persecution and pride comes more often from those staring down at others

do you not see all the hate being generated towards the "rich bankers" now? Whether they deserve it or not hate and envy are being swelled up in peoples lives because of the rich bankers. What about all those in New Orlands that demanded their "fair share" and that they be taken care of. Is not this a form of pride and persecution?

This is pride and persecution just as much as those that are rich being prideful and persecuting the poor. Often however we don't associate the poor persecuting the rich, but when they demand goods and services that they didn't rightfully work to obtain from the rich, I think that is a form of persecution.

One other thought on this, maybe the test for those that are perceived to be "less qualified" is to learn humility and learn to swollow their pride and learn to appreciate what they have and not what they don't. One thing that is hard for people to learn is to play their roles and not covet what they don't have.

It isn't God being a respector of persons, it is we the people who are the ones being respectors of persons and questioning why the Lord alwasys seems to choose the suscessful and wealthy. While this in fact isn't always the case, we tend to perceive it as being the case, but should it really matter in the eternal scheme of things if that is how the Lord operated?

[buffalo_girl]

For sure it takes a lot of money to fulfill certain global callings in the Church! That's a good thing...

If my husband were called to be Stake President I'm not sure where I would bunk a General Authority during Stake Conference in this 100 year old farmhouse. The rooms are tiny, the stairs steep & treacherous, there's only one bathroom, and the plumbing is archaic. It would be especially difficult during spring lambing when we often have several cardboard boxes of weak newborn lambs in the kitchen where I can attend to their needs.

Is it possible we have become too accustomed to luxury, however? I wonder if hard times might help us learn that having everything and everything perfect isn't necessary for our personal salvation.

A friend told me of a discussion she witnessed in Gospel Doctrine in regard to Jesus' profession. These wealthy men decided that Jesus was not a simple carpenter; he was a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to go on a three year mission. Apparently, His 'miracle skills' weren't enough.

[ShawnC]

For sure it takes a lot of money to fulfill certain global callings in the Church! That's a good thing...

If my husband were called to be Stake President I'm not sure where I would bunk a General Authority during Stake Conference in this 100 year old farmhouse. The rooms are tiny, the stairs steep & treacherous, there's only one bathroom, and the plumbing is archaic. It would be especially difficult during spring lambing when we often have several cardboard boxes of weak newborn lambs in the kitchen where I can attend to their needs.

Is it possible we have become too accustomed to luxury, however? I wonder if hard times might help us learn that having everything and everything perfect isn't necessary for our personal salvation.

A friend told me of a discussion she witnessed in Gospel Doctrine in regard to Jesus' profession. These wealthy men decided that Jesus was not a simple carpenter; he was a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to go on a three year mission. Apparently, His 'miracle skills' weren't enough.

BG,

I'm telling you, you and I would get along better than you probably think.

[Squally]

A friend told me of a discussion she witnessed in Gospel Doctrine in regard to Jesus' profession. These wealthy men decided that Jesus was not a simple carpenter; he was a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to go on a three year mission. Apparently, His 'miracle skills' weren't enough.

WOW, Very interesting.
Anyway thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. I think I might even share next week in class. Maybe as a joke, or maybe as doctrine......haven't made up my mind yet

[Squally]

Jason, I agree with what you just said.

Squally, when you say

I have personally found the persecution and pride comes more often from those staring down at others

do you not see all the hate being generated towards the "rich bankers" now? Whether they deserve it or not hate and envy are being swelled up in peoples lives because of the rich bankers. What about all those in New Orlands that demanded their "fair share" and that they be taken care of. Is not this a form of pride and persecution? Pride and envy can come from all sides.
This is pride and persecution just as much as those that are rich being prideful and persecuting the poor. Often however we don't associate the poor persecuting the rich, but when they demand goods and services that they didn't rightfully work to obtain from the rich, I think that is a form of persecution.

One other thought on this, maybe the test for those that are perceived to be "less qualified" is to learn humility and learn to swollow their pride and learn to appreciate what they have and not what they don't. One thing that is hard for people to learn is to play their roles and not covet what they don't have.

It isn't God being a respector of persons, it is we the people who are the ones being respectors of persons and questioning why the Lord alwasys seems to choose the suscessful and wealthy. While this in fact isn't always the case, we tend to perceive it as being the case, but should it really matter in the eternal scheme of things if that is how the Lord operated?

Absolutely I agree that people are respector of persons. God is not. But I do think that the respector of persons slides into us members. Maybe the trend is to think that a persons callings is the definition of what the Lord thinks of them and how much more righteous they are. This I feel should not be the case. I believe there are some who are very lowly in calling and status who are just good members with contrite hearts whom the Lord will exalt just as quickly as one in high office in the church. The meek shall inherit the earth. This means any from high to low callings can inherit the earth, the humble, broken hearted, contrite. We should seek to serve, not seek to lead. If we seek to serve we will be able to do whatever the Lord calls us to do.

We should realize that status in callings also is the Lord using those whom he has given talents to do so. My wife can sing better than most people. She has a gift and talent that she has nurtured and grown, but yet it was God given. I do not for one second think that because she is asked to sing in church and many meetings to share such an outstanding talent that she is better than the members who do not have the ability to sing like her. The Lord blesses each of us and calls us to serve in those blessings and use those talents for his purposes.

The handicapped kid may never be called to be a stake pres, but it doesn't make him any less than the stake pres. Just two of Gods children called to live and serve two different life experiences and do the best with the talents and abilities he has given them.

[kgrigio]

Squally, I couldn't agree more. There is a brother in our ward who is a convert, never married, and has a low spiritual self-esteem. He probably will never be a leader in the church, nor does he want to, but I love this man dearly and continually tell him he is the best man in the ward, and despite what he thinks, he is a spiritual giant.

I enjoy assosicating with these "salt of the earth" people as I call them. They always do their callings, they always do their hometeaching, they have raised wonderful children and yet they don't have "leadership" callings, but the thing is, they are sometimes better leaders than those that are called to lead because of their example and strength.

I have been blessed to have parents like this. Their quite spiritual stength and leadership is amazing and I continually thank the Lord that I was born to them.

I have seen what you are talking about by some members, they look down on these types of people, but maybe it is where I have lived, but this seems to be the rare exception rather than the rule.

Unfortunately I have seen a lot more often those that envy leaders and question them and ridicule them and I find it interesting that it is often those that aren't as well educated in the gospel or those that are casual members. Note, someone can be a casual member even if they attend church every week. I think this has something to do with what Nephi experienced in 3 Nephi 7 where he was so righteous it got people angry because they couldn't deny the truth of what he was saying. I think this is partially at the root of people finding fault with leaders and even those of "higher status" in the church.

Good discussion.

[shadow]

For sure it takes a lot of money to fulfill certain global callings in the Church! That's a good thing...

If my husband were called to be Stake President I'm not sure where I would bunk a General Authority during Stake Conference in this 100 year old farmhouse. The rooms are tiny, the stairs steep & treacherous, there's only one bathroom, and the plumbing is archaic. It would be especially difficult during spring lambing when we often have several cardboard boxes of weak newborn lambs in the kitchen where I can attend to their needs.

Great point BG. I'm a bit familiar with how stake presidencies are chosen. The visiting GA's take a tour of the stake. They take notes of the "nicer" homes. They turn that list over to the stake to set up interviews with those people. Once they whittle down the list a bit (by looking at bank statements) they do a 2nd interview, only these interviews are done in the homes. Pictures are taken and emailed to the GA wife home approval committee. They have a grading system based on appearance alone. Once the visiting GA's get the grades back, they then choose the new stake presidency. It's interesting to note that the top 3 choices from the home approval committee are always called to the new presidency
I've tried to make my home look really nice but I was left out of the interview process a few months back when our stake reorganised. If it would've been in the Summer I'm sure I would be in the Stake Presidency. My yard looks awesome in the Summer 8)

[Squally]

Idol worship is seeking after something we percieve above us or as desirable in the worldy sense.
IMHO the big problem is not the poor persecuting the rich or being looked down upon (you usually have to be above someone in stature or percieve superiority before feeling able to look down upon them..) The great and spacious building was floating in the air high (no foundation) above all those they mocked, scorned and persecuted, but they still floated falsly above others while looking down.

Riches wealth prestige and status are highly sought after, and therefore can be idolized by others.

Being poor, ugly, fat, uneducated, un-talented, sick, afflicted, handicapped, blue collar, simple, lowly, or meek are not usually idolized by others within the church or out.

I do see many in out LDS population overall being a respector of persons to varying degrees. Just like the world, we idolize many things besides wealth, but wealth is still idolized as a badge of being blessed and therefore can be "righteousness" related for some. Whereas I have seen on some occasions "higher standing" members thinking the poor saints are lesser and must bring these things upon themselves. Also some of us are more righteous than others and look scornfully down on others for weaknesses we have never entertained. Righteous pride.

I am not condemning others for I at times have been a respector, just sharing.

By the way, I have many things people might respect me for (or even idolize), but I have found this to be of little worth in my progression as I have gained greater understanding. Years ago I found it wonderful, whereas now I find it fleeting and empty. It is what I do with the Lord and my relationship with him that is important. Not people praising me.

Also I have found that when I am afflicted and tried, I am loved and blessed to experience great growth.

[gruden]

Being poor, ugly, fat, uneducated, un-talented, sick, afflicted, handicapped, blue collar, simple, lowly, or meek are not usually idolized by others within the church or out.

Thanks for bursting my bubble, Squally. I guess there's always therapy...

[Squally]

Being poor, ugly, fat, uneducated, un-talented, sick, afflicted, handicapped, blue collar, simple, lowly, or meek are not usually idolized by others within the church or out.

Thanks for bursting my bubble, Squally. I guess there's always therapy...

Sorry Gruden, but I promise I really was not attempting to personally describe you.

[gruden]

Being poor, ugly, fat, uneducated, un-talented, sick, afflicted, handicapped, blue collar, simple, lowly, or meek are not usually idolized by others within the church or out.

Thanks for bursting my bubble, Squally. I guess there's always therapy...

Sorry Gruden, but I promise I really was not attempting to personally describe you.

That's OK. I'm holding out for a better deal in the resurrection.

[Squally]

That's OK. I'm holding out for a better deal in the resurrection.

I'm absolutely sure the deal in the end will be quite sweet. Keep holding.

[Squally]

I have recently experienced some great afflictions.

So the Lord chastens those whom he loves, right. So for those of you going through great afflictions, trials or tribulations right now, just know that you are loved more than most. At least this is what I am telling myself.

[Like]

I have recently experienced some great afflictions.

So the Lord chastens those whom he loves, right. So for those of you going through great afflictions, trials or tribulations right now, just know that you are loved more than most. At least this is what I am telling myself.

Sometimes life just sucks and instead of removing you from thoses great afflictions, trials or tribulations the Lord understands you can benefit from life struggles. In my patriarchal blessing it says in the pre existence I agreed to go through some of the things I go through here because I needed to develop certain traits and I wanted the opportunity to do that here. So the Lord is just respecting my agency by allowing me go through some hard experiences that my have asked for.

That being said, life is hard and I want you to know you always have a friend in me. If there is anything I can do to help let me know.

[buffalo_girl]

I have recently experienced some great afflictions.

So the Lord chastens those whom he loves, right. So for those of you going through great afflictions, trials or tribulations right now, just know that you are loved more than most. At least this is what I am telling myself.

I am sorry to hear that, Squally!

I believe the Lord has begun 'separating' the wheat from the chaff. When we suffer affliction while doing our best to be humble followers of Christ the outcome can only be good.

In my experience the worst trials are those which come from within the body of the Church - the membership. When I feel that going to Church is no longer a place of refuge and peace, I am engulfed in pain from which there is no relief. Thankfully, working in the temple is ever available to me. It sometimes is my only refuge.

Squally, if you have time to read the scriptures seeking answer to your questions that may well be where you will find the greatest comfort. That has always been true for me.

If you aren't closely familiar with Hebrews in the New Testament, I would suggest reading the entire book in the order it was written. These are the letters of Paul to the Jewish Christians describing the Melchizedek Priesthood Power and Covenant.

For now, here's a passage from Chapter 12:

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

[Squally]

Thanks for the words of encouragement and wisdom Buffalogirl and Mazal. Good info there-- It's appreciated.