Does Each Galaxy Have Its Own God...

[LukeAir2008]

Ahman is twice mentioned as one of the names of God in the Doctrine and Covenants. In each instance, Jesus Christ is called Son Ahman, suggesting Son God and son of Ahman (D&C 78:20; 95:17). Orson Pratt, an apostle, suggested that this was one of the names of God in the pure language (JD 2:342; cf. Zeph. 3:9; see Adamic Language).

Ahman is also an element of the place-name Adam-ondi-Ahman, Missouri, where the Lord visited Adam and "administered comfort" to him and where Adam prophesied concerning "whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation" (D&C 107:53-57; cf. D&C 78:15-16). Adam lived in the region of Adam-ondi-Ahman (D&C 117:8), and prophecy anticipates a future visit of Adam at this place (D&C 116:1; cf. Dan. 7:13).

(Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 1)

[LukeAir2008]

Joseph Smith:

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand.

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Still waiting for more shattering glass... 8)

[bobhenstra]

Joseph Smith:

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand.

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Still waiting for more shattering glass... 8)

Contradictions are not allowed, to understand the truth they must be reconciled! No shattered glass here!

Bob

[Quiet Cricket]

God is a perfect man with a perfect plan for all his children. Perfection does not fail! God knows all about mortality and the problems his children would face, he's smart enough and powerful enough to help all of his children overcome the moment that is mortality.

Bob, from this and from comments you've made on other threads it seems you believe that all, if not, the vast majority will eventually be exalted. Is this your view? I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just looking for clarification.

[bobhenstra]

God is a perfect man with a perfect plan for all his children. Perfection does not fail! God knows all about mortality and the problems his children would face, he's smart enough and powerful enough to help all of his children overcome the moment that is mortality.

Bob, from this and from comments you've made on other threads it seems you believe that all, if not, the vast majority will eventually be exalted. Is this your view? I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just looking for clarification.

Yes, that is my view. All prophetic statements, (evidences) "must" be accepted and reconciled. We are not allowed to cast one evidence aside in favor of another. If we are not able to reconcile the evidences, then we study and pray until we can. The evidences I quote and the evidence Luke quotes seem to contradict, they do not, it's our job to understand why.

I love to find evidences that seem contradict, I know if I see a contradiction then it's in my own understanding, or lack of, my own mind. If I see a contradiction, I'm very pleased, because I know I'm going to learn something new when I let the Spirit help me with reconciling those seemingly contradicting evidences.

Repentance is never taken from God's children. While it may take some a long time to repent as compared to others, Even the dead can repent and will according to their agency, they'll always have that right.
(Doctrine and Covenants 138:32-60.)

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

And what are they taught?

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.

41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

42 And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.

43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

49 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

52 And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

They are heirs of Salvation, But they're still in the Telestial Kingdom not yet saved, but still heirs! Then they go through the House of the Lord, think Temple here, how it works, it's our perfect example!

Please, read and study my signature line!

Bob

[KalelIsbell]

I am sorry that this question has upset so many, I had never heard of this theory before and just wanted to ask people who may have better understanding then I, I know it is speculation but is that not how we learn, line upon line, asking and getting answers, which in turn give us more questions. I also know that these kinds of questions are not relevant to our salvation, but are the mysteries of God. But I also thought that I was asking fellow saints and not casting my pearls before swine. I guess I am too trusting of people. But nonetheless I am again sorry for the contention that it seems to have caused.

[sbsion]

I am sorry that this question has upset so many, I had never heard of this theory before and just wanted to ask people who may have better understanding then I, I know it is speculation but is that not how we learn, line upon line, asking and getting answers, which in turn give us more questions. I also know that these kinds of questions are not relevant to our salvation, but are the mysteries of God. But I also thought that I was asking fellow saints and not casting my pearls before swine. I guess I am too trusting of people. But nonetheless I am again sorry for the contention that it seems to have caused.

remember, salvation is "automatic", except for perdition, the question is not one of salvation, but, rather, do you want "more"?

[gruden]

I am sorry that this question has upset so many, I had never heard of this theory before and just wanted to ask people who may have better understanding then I, I know it is speculation but is that not how we learn, line upon line, asking and getting answers, which in turn give us more questions. I also know that these kinds of questions are not relevant to our salvation, but are the mysteries of God. But I also thought that I was asking fellow saints and not casting my pearls before swine. I guess I am too trusting of people. But nonetheless I am again sorry for the contention that it seems to have caused.

Don't sweat it. We're good at constructing towers out of molehills here!

Just remember, the guy who wrote that book and probably everyone here hasn't the slightest clue how far Heavenly Father's kingdom extends. We just know it's creations without number. Our little brains aren't well-equipped to comprehend a single galaxy, much less a universe. And if there's anyone on this planet who does know this stuff, they ain't talking. The only things we have on this subject is what's already in the scriptures for anyone to read.

[gruden]

Bob,

You're confusing salvation with exaltation.

For clarification on the subject, D&C 88 lays it out.

The fundamental purpose in this life is to receive light into our souls (soul = spirit + body). We receive light by hearkening to every word from the mouth of God and obeying. The light manifest in us when we resurrect determines our placement.

The telestial kingdom is for those who received telestial law - basically they kept their first estate, because in this life they sought to be a law unto themselves, thus possess a lesser light.

The terrestrial kingdom are for the honorable who were deceived by the teachings of men, for those who didn't have an opportunity in this world to hear the gospel but received it in the spirit world, and those who did hear it but were not valiant in their testimony.

The celestial are those who both received the gospel in the flesh, and proved through obedience they would and could adhere to celestial law.

There's plenty of commentary on salvation vs. exaltation. Those who are not sons of perdition are eligible for some level of exaltation, but while we are here we can aspire to even better, if we will.

Edit: The celestial kingdom also includes those who would have received celestial law had they been permitted to tarry, and those who died before reaching the age of accountability.

[bobhenstra]

I am sorry that this question has upset so many, I had never heard of this theory before and just wanted to ask people who may have better understanding then I, I know it is speculation but is that not how we learn, line upon line, asking and getting answers, which in turn give us more questions. I also know that these kinds of questions are not relevant to our salvation, but are the mysteries of God. But I also thought that I was asking fellow saints and not casting my pearls before swine. I guess I am too trusting of people. But nonetheless I am again sorry for the contention that it seems to have caused.

Nobody's upset, scripturally uninformed perhaps, but not upset.

Sometimes we're simply guilty of reading more into a post than the author actually intended.

Your question has merit, also the opinions, right or wrong, but sharing is an important part of how we learn.

There are times when some here explode, but they soon repent or leave, we must allow them that!

Bob

remember, salvation is "automatic", except for perdition, the question is not one of salvation, but, rather, do you want "more"?

(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

(Doctrine and Covenants 14:7.)

7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

"Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion
which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it
but himself or one like him." (Lectures on Faith 7:9)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has explained: "We are ofttimes prone to create
artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation
another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation
or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some
passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order
to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan
of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-
49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general
or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in
immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an
inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation). (Alma 11:40)
"Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest
heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation,
almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation . They use
the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that
mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or
variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah, p. 129.

The above statement by Elder McConkie is in perfect harmony with the
prior statements of our Lord.

I'm content with Salvation or Eternal life, which "is" Exaltation! One step at a time, just like we're taught in the Temple!

Bob

[SmallFarm]

I like the term "eternal progression"

[ktg]

Makes me think of this from a link in another thread on this site.

#4 - New evidence links vaccines and neurological disorders
New evidence will emerge linking vaccines to neurological disorders such as Alzheimer's disease. This evidence may point to the chemical adjuvants used in vaccines which cause an inflammatory response in the body. The vaccine industry, of course, will deny any such link, but evidence will mount that points to the link.

[Quiet Cricket]

God is a perfect man with a perfect plan for all his children. Perfection does not fail! God knows all about mortality and the problems his children would face, he's smart enough and powerful enough to help all of his children overcome the moment that is mortality.

Bob, from this and from comments you've made on other threads it seems you believe that all, if not, the vast majority will eventually be exalted. Is this your view? I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just looking for clarification.

Yes, that is my view.

To be more clear this would mean progression from kingdom to kingdom. I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation that said this doctrine isn't true. He at least said it has never been taught. If I ever have time I'll try and find it; I don't have the books.
Now, if all he said was "it's never been taught." This means it still might be true, but shouldn't be taught (officially I suppose.)
This scripture influences me to think this way (Speaking about hell.)

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

If I understand this correctly, God chose to call it Endless punishment because it is a more effective motivator for mortals; it makes us fear the depth of it. The same could be with progression between kingdoms. Perhaps it's possible, but to reveal it to those who are not spiritually mature would be a mistake. They would procrastinate into the next life and maybe stay terrestrial for a billion years.

I, however, do not claim to have the answer. Bob seems pretty sure, but President Smith's comments make me hesitant do believe it just yet.

[gruden]

If you read scriptures like D&C 76 and 88, it's crystal-clear.

For those that have earned salvation, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

For those that have earned exaltation and eternal lives, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.

[gruden]

If I understand this correctly, God chose to call it Endless punishment because it is a more effective motivator for mortals; it makes us fear the depth of it. The same could be with progression between kingdoms. Perhaps it's possible, but to reveal it to those who are not spiritually mature would be a mistake. They would procrastinate into the next life and maybe stay terrestrial for a billion years.

I, however, do not claim to have the answer. Bob seems pretty sure, but President Smith's comments make me hesitant do believe it just yet.

The punishment is endless/boundless in scope and depth, but He tells us not endless in duration. Just like Christ's suffering in Gethsemane, which is the likeness of what we will individually suffer afterward if we do not repent in mortality.

One motivator for doing one's best is that whether eternal progression works to the fullness we think it might mean, it is nevertheless true that if we inherit the telestial kingdom, we will never be with Christ, and if we inherit the terrestrial, we will never be with the Father, no matter where we go or what happens after that. Those that performed better in mortality will always be between us and them.

[bobhenstra]

God is a perfect man with a perfect plan for all his children. Perfection does not fail! God knows all about mortality and the problems his children would face, he's smart enough and powerful enough to help all of his children overcome the moment that is mortality.

Bob, from this and from comments you've made on other threads it seems you believe that all, if not, the vast majority will eventually be exalted. Is this your view? I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just looking for clarification.

Yes, that is my view. [/quote]To be more clear this would mean progression from kingdom to kingdom. I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation that said this doctrine isn't true. He at least said it has never been taught. If I ever have time I'll try and find it; I don't have the books.
Now, if all he said was "it's never been taught." This means it still might be true, but shouldn't be taught (officially I suppose.)
This scripture influences me to think this way (Speaking about hell.)

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

If I understand this correctly, God chose to call it Endless punishment because it is a more effective motivator for mortals; it makes us fear the depth of it. The same could be with progression between kingdoms. Perhaps it's possible, but to reveal it to those who are not spiritually mature would be a mistake. They would procrastinate into the next life and maybe stay terrestrial for a billion years.

I, however, do not claim to have the answer. Bob seems pretty sure, but President Smith's comments make me hesitant do believe it just yet.

May I suggest you study the kingdoms. JFS is correct, there is no advancement between kingdoms "as" they are incorrectly portrayed in the minds of many members. Understanding the Kingdoms is like understanding the scripture you mentioned above, Sec 19:6, Eternal Punishment is a noun clause, not an adjective clause. Eternal punishment is the "name" of a place, another name for Spirit Prison, not a description of punishment. All kingdoms we'll have anything to do with (presently, future) remain connected to this earth.

"We" cannot earn exaltation, it's a gift! We cannot exalt ourselves. He who gives the gift is he who earned the price of the gift in the garden and on the cross.

The proper application of "many are called and few are chosen" is mortality, "where" many are called and few are chosen. The dead are called and chosen as they repent, and "all" will repent, the reason we do Temple work.

Please folks, never read maliciousness in my posts, there is none there. I write as I speak, and at times my brain gets way to far ahead of my two typing fingers. Many times I go back and read what I wrote the night before, and wonder what idiot wrote that???

Bob

[kathyn]

I have a hard time understanding that the terrestrial kingdom is for those who accept the gospel in the next life but not in this one. If we do temple work for them, surely they will receive exaltation eventually, won't they? So that would put them in the celestial kingdom then.

[Quiet Cricket]

I have found some quotes about progression from kingdom to kingdom. It looks to me that it's officially a false doctrine. Once you are resurrected that is it. Apparently it is because you are resurrected with different, unchangeable bodies. Also, each kingdom progresses in different directions. See quotes below:

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58; Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.

George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.

It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

Kingdoms Progress in Different Directions. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now--then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.

[bobhenstra]

I have found some quotes about progression from kingdom to kingdom. It looks to me that it's officially a false doctrine. Once you are resurrected that is it. Apparently it is because you are resurrected with different, unchangeable bodies. Also, each kingdom progresses in different directions. See quotes below:

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58; Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.

George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.

It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

Kingdoms Progress in Different Directions. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now--then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.

I agree with everything that is quoted here, what I do not accept is the average church members interpretation or understanding of what is said. There is "no" celestial progression by our own merit (think Temple). It's impossible to become Celestial by ourselves, Somebody has to take us there! It's a gift received "Only" after proper repentance, and acceptance of temple ordinances, however long that takes!

We need more than a 3rd grade level of scriptural education if we're going to understand the truth. Keep searching!

Our Lord said, "For I am the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind!" Is he lying?

The Prophet Joseph explains, to be saved is to be as Christ "as one like him!" Is the Prophet Joseph lying??

Seek, and ye shall find! The above quotes dug out by Cricket are more great examples, like D&C 19 mentioned in this thread.

Bob

[Squally]

If you read scriptures like D&C 76 and 88, it's crystal-clear.

For those that have earned salvation, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

For those that have earned exaltation and eternal lives, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.

Earn a gift that is given. (seems to be a contradiction of terms).

[patriotsaint]

If you read scriptures like D&C 76 and 88, it's crystal-clear.

For those that have earned salvation, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

For those that have earned exaltation and eternal lives, it is the greatest gift God can give them.

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.

Earn a gift that is given. (seems to be a contradiction of terms).

Earn is not the terminology I would use.....I prefer the word qualify.

Exaltation is a gift, but we must comply with God's requirements in order to receive that gift. If someone refuses baptism or the ordinances of the Temple, can the gift still be given? No. Following that line of reasoning it is obvious that we must qualify to receive the gift.

The word earn makes it sound like something we deserve. We are all unprofitable servants and the only wages we have earned is death because of sin. Christ intercedes on our behalf and as long as we submit to Him and meet His requirements, he will help us qualify for the gift. We haven't earned anything, and we don't deserve anything.......but we can qualify for the gift.

[gruden]

Earn a gift that is given. (seems to be a contradiction of terms).

If that bothers you, then think of it as the gift you are given is the one you were willing to receive. We should try to think in conceptual terms as opposed to getting tripped up in words. Using English to describe spiritual terms and concepts, like all the languages of the world right now, is like trying to use hammers and pliers to operate on sophisticated electronics. We do the best we can with words, and try to open ourselves up spiritually for more accurate and comprehensive understanding offered by the Spirit.

The point being, D&C 88 teaches us that where we end up has everything to do with the amount of light within us. We can go as high in the realms of glory as that which abides in us, and no higher.

[sbsion]

[The point being, D&C 88 teaches us that where we end up has everything to do with the amount of light within us. We can go as high in the realms of glory as that which abides in us, and no higher.

this is IT........."..........a law irrevocable...."........ALL blessings....." nothing is recieved as a "gift" unless "paid" for.......the light within is our intelligence and ability to comprehend and to act accordingly. ".....one intelligence above another...", like Father who is I AM, we ARE.....just discover who and what you are......sobeit(no advancement between "kingdoms")

[gruden]

nothing is recieved as a "gift" unless "paid" for

That's the gotcha that causes problems for some. As Nephi tells us, by grace are we saved after all we can do..

The gift we are given is always greater than we have technically earned by our own efforts. To me I see it that our works and effort in this life is a multiplier effect. The more valiant and diligent our efforts, the more the gift is multiplied.

Those in the telestial kingdom will have more glory than their near-null efforts (in addition to first-estate accomplishments) in mortality earned, thus they will joy in their placement. This is why everyone will have joy wherever they end up, because each will know that God in His goodness gave them far more than they could ever claim of their own merits.

[Original_Intent]

My thoughts on progression between kingdoms....I really do no know, but this is my limited stupid mortal thought process. It seems weird that a person that made it into the terrestrial kingdom just barely could progress up to the highest levels of the same kingdom, but someone who just missed making it into the celestial kingdom could never make any progress due to it "crossing a kingdom boundary". That being said, God's ways are not man's ways and I will humbly and gratefully accept whatever it is, and I am sure that it will be clear why it is however it turns out to be.

My gut feeling is that there will be unlimited progression possibility in the eternities, but this is not taught so that people will not foolishly decide to "eat drink and be merry" and we can repent later...it is clear that this life is the time to prepare for eternity, and that our performance on this life is the most critical in all of our eternal existence. Maybe the amount of progress that we can make in one year in mortality takes thousands or millions of years - or maybe there are "hard limits" on how much we can progress outside of mortality - kind of like how we believe we reached a point in the pre-existense where we could go no further without experiencing mortality.

The speculation is intriguing, but I always try to maintain an attitude of not proposing anything to God, I will be interested in seeing how things work, and look forward to learning how and why it works. In the meantime, I have to dxo the best I can with my limited understanding, at the same time trying to expand that understanding.