Nephite coinage

[An Eye Single]

Don't have a lot of time to post the reason why I am asking this question, but I am interested in people's opinions as to why the reckoning of Nephite coinage is discussed in Alma 11. What have you learned from this section of scripture?

[mackej]

Your question reminded me of something interesting that I had heard/read recently regarding it. Apparently, anti-Mormons like to use the reference to "coinage" as one of their "evidences" of the Book of Mormon being false, because stamped coins as we know them today didn't exist in Book of Mormon times. Some FAIR members/scholars have explained that the reference to "coinage" actually occurs only in the heading of that chapter, which was added in as a later, incorrect interpretation. What is actually discussed in the chapter is a system of weights, which is how money was measured at that time. In a very simple answer to your question, though, perhaps it's there partly to remind us what "true money" is?

Here's a link to a FAIR article on this subject along with a very short video:

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/09/coin ... of-mormon/

Steve Danderson in FAIR has recently taken the subject further, and pondered on the significance of the Nephites using both gold and silver -- he sees this as a way of preventing severe inflation and deflation with the overuse of gold, which the U. S. economy has suffered from historically:

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/17/neph ... d-coinage/

Is this where your thinking is coming from?

[Original_Intent]

I think it was to demonstrate that the only just money system is one which "value" cannot be created out of thin air. That's jsut my biased opinion though.

[clarkkent14]

I think it is to testify of Joseph Smith... the systems are very intricate, and how could Joseph know all of this?

[tribrac]

Very interesting passages, and a great question. As the Book of Mormon is somewhat stingy about details of many aspects of nephite life why the great details about an exchange system and a series of wars from a time period 400 hundred years before the editor? Were the exchange rates the same in Moroni's time or did they have changing prices and/or inflation? Were the exchange rates included only to show us how much wealth Zeezrom (I think it was Z. and wasn't he a judge/lawyer) had and offered to Amulek(?)

[kfb]

Hugh Nibley was my SS teacher during college back in the late 80's he mentioned that there was a mathematical equation that the fewest number of different amounts were used to cover all the monetary possibilities, something that J. Smith wouldn't have known if he had written the book in the 90+ working days.

[bobhenstra]

I'm of the opinion that there are quite a few quotes in the BoM that will be discovered and proven by archeologists. The quotes about "measures" is one of the many. I believe that someone will discover the same thing somewhere in the "cement" ruins, or ruins covered by lava flows, ruins underwater, and will release it unknowingly, not being familiar with the BoM.

While in Central America I met a young archeologist from an Eastern University, if I remember correctly he was from Yale. He told me that all the archeologists he knew had an unwritten rule, they wouldn't be the one who proved the BoM true. If they come across something the Mormons could use, it would be covered up. He was proud of that fact.

All the non member archeologists against the Lord,--- doesn't sound fair---

Bob

[An Eye Single]

Thank you so much for your posts.

I think it is to testify of Joseph Smith... the systems are very intricate, and how could Joseph know all of this?

I'm of the opinion that there are quite a few quotes in the BoM that will be discovered and proven by archeologists. The quotes about "measures" is one of the many. I believe that someone will discover the same thing somewhere in the "cement" ruins, or ruins covered by lava flows, ruins underwater, and will release it unknowingly, not being familiar with the BoM.

Hugh Nibley was my SS teacher during college back in the late 80's he mentioned that there was a mathematical equation that the fewest number of different amounts were used to cover all the monetary possibilities, something that J. Smith wouldn't have known if he had written the book in the 90+ working days.

I first learned about that mathematical equation when I was in seminary. I love math and number combinations and when I found out about the simplicity of the Nephite monetary system, I thought it was pure genius. I also find it interesting that it is also based on a system of seven instead of a system of ten like ours is today. Symbolically, we know that seven represents perfection and completeness while ten represents imperfection, incompleteness, and a lack of true power. Don't really know if representation holds any water, but it is interesting to note.

I think it was to demonstrate that the only just money system is one which "value" cannot be created out of thin air. That's jsut my biased opinion though.

I believe this whole-heartedly. Isn't it amazing how the Lord uses just a few verses to teach us a great principle?

Steve Danderson in FAIR has recently taken the subject further, and pondered on the significance of the Nephites using both gold and silver -- he sees this as a way of preventing severe inflation and deflation with the overuse of gold, which the U. S. economy has suffered from historically:

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/17/neph ... d-coinage/

Is this where your thinking is coming from?

I honestly wish that I could say my thinking was coming from that, but I can't. Out of all the topics that I have had time to read on this forum, topics dealing with the economy stump me the most. I don't know what it is. I just can't seem to wrap my head around all of the concepts. I was hoping to open my understanding about this subject by going straight to the scriptures and insights on the Nephite system. The link to the article on Nephite Money and Coinage helped. Perhaps if someone could steer me in the direction of a good website that explains these concepts well, that would be helpful. (I'm sure there's a link somewhere on the forum, but I really do not have time to search.)

Very interesting passages, and a great question. As the Book of Mormon is somewhat stingy about details of many aspects of nephite life why the great details about an exchange system and a series of wars from a time period 400 hundred years before the editor? Were the exchange rates the same in Moroni's time or did they have changing prices and/or inflation? Were the exchange rates included only to show us how much wealth Zeezrom (I think it was Z. and wasn't he a judge/lawyer) had and offered to Amulek(?)

Now that I've laid out my completely novice status on economics, I'd like to pose a question.

A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.

Do you think that "a measure" was some amount of grain that fluctuated over time or was it "a" measure that was set and that didn't change from Alma to Mormon? Would it have made a difference in the Nephite economy if it had been one way or the other? I will put out there that I don't even really know what I am trying to get at. I guess I am just interested that food is used in the passage. I've always been a practical person and have always thought that gold and silver are highly overrated. In desperate times, a bucket of wheat would be worth way more than a room full of gold to me.

Anyway, like I said, time to post anything on the forum is in short supply. I thank you all in advance for any help that you can offer.

[ithink]

I think it was to demonstrate that the only just money system is one which "value" cannot be created out of thin air. That's jsut my biased opinion though.

Nearly everyone thinks that. But I don't.

If you consider the entire chapter, it is apparent that despite the sophisticated and apparently well governed and well managed and well regulated Nephite hard money system -- there was still widespread corruption at all levels right up into the government and judicial systems. The lesson to be learned is that simply that using a hard money system will do absolutely nothing to fix the woes of any society.

[An Eye Single]

It's been a while since I first posted this topic, but I've had some thoughts on the subject and I, in great humility, am ready for anyone to shoot them down if they are completely misguided in any way. Sorry if I don't get to the point immediately. Please bear with me.

We started a raised bed garden this spring. I remember having a garden as a child, but it was many years ago and I was young so I don't remember a whole lot. I can remember everything growing and enjoying the bounty of a plentiful harvest, but I don't remember all of the tilling, hoeing, weeding, watering, blood, sweat, and tears that went into producing that harvest. Setting the sprinkler was about the only thing that I can really remember. Anyway, I've felt a strong desire to learn how to propagate and harvest heirloom seeds. That was one of my main goals in starting the garden. It has been an absolute joy to read, learn about, and, consequently, appreciate all of the magnificence that is in one tiny seed. It truly is a miracle and one of Heavenly Father's tenderest mercies that, when He commanded all things to multiply and replenish the earth, He put the renewal of life on "automatic pilot", as it were.

I have been amazed at the abundance that results from one tiny seed. Radishes are very prolific seed-producers. Literally hundreds can come from one plant. Peas, corn, melons-you name the plant. They all demonstrate the same principle.

So I got to thinking. (And now here is the part that will probably need correcting.) My first thought was that, in the Nephite system, if wheat was used as a form of currency, and more and more wheat was introduced into the monetary system, then the value of wheat would go down. But then my next thought was that that would not be the case because a certain amount of wheat was also equal to a predetermined amount of gold or silver. And if a Nephite went into debt for any reason, paying back that debt would actually be possible because that person would just go out and plant some wheat in order to pay back the debt with interest. Am I right or am I missing something? Like I said, still trying to grasp the basics of economics. But if I am right, then what another great mercy from our Heavenly Father-that when we eat our bread by the sweat of our brow, we can can actually enjoy it, too, knowing that we are also debt-free while we eat!! Any feedback (especially correction) would be greatly appreciated.

[Wiikwajio]

So I got to thinking. (And now here is the part that will probably need correcting.) My first thought was that, in the Nephite system, if wheat was used as a form of currency, and more and more wheat was introduced into the monetary system, then the value of wheat would go down.

In Nevada, in the days of the Virginia City Gold and Silver mines, silver was so plentiful that silver dollars became nearly worthless.

Money is what the people want it to be. An Indian Chief back East looked at a Rix silver dollar and laughed that the English and Dutch considered it to be money or even of value. He threw it into the sea. They like Wampum and Wampum was used as legal tender for decades and even until the 1850s.

Salt. Cows, Sea Shells, have al been money. The Chinese glyph for money is a sea shell.

The only important part is that they are equal in weight and measure or they are an abomination to the Lord. America's current monetary system is Satanic and yet LDS still think that FRNs are dollars and commit perjury once a year to prove it.

[Jason]

....to show the size of the bribe offered by Zeezrom

[NoGreaterLove]

I have always been perplexed by this attention to detail in the BOM on the subject of money. Why would the Lord have Moroni painstakingly engrave this? I wish I had the answer.

[NoGreaterLove]

I think a clue lies within the realm of the story. The story is centered around the teaching of the gospel by the Lords missionaries and Satans attempt to expose them as a fraud. The attempt to expose them as a fraud (teaching things that they did not really believe, with the underlying motive being money) was facilitated by a fraud (the offering of money to expose their supposed fraud)(money that was promised that would never be delivered).

So is there a parallel in our day? If so, how does the breakdown of currency in their day relate to the parallel?

[ithink]

I think a clue lies within the realm of the story. The story is centered around the teaching of the gospel by the Lords missionaries and Satans attempt to expose them as a fraud. The attempt to expose them as a fraud (teaching things that they did not really believe, with the underlying motive being money) was facilitated by a fraud (the offering of money to expose their supposed fraud)(money that was promised that would never be delivered).

So is there a parallel in our day? If so, how does the breakdown of currency in their day relate to the parallel?

The nephite hard money system was totally corrupted. The compound interest fiat system we are under is totally corrupted. Neither are what we are looking for.