LDS Freedom Forum

Okay, I can find a lot of statements saying that it is only to raise up children in this life (and that was my intention in the above post), but you are focused on the afterlife, so I will leave it at that as I really do not enjoy searching through all the apostate crap that surrounds this issue. I do however think that scripture is clear enough that the purpose is to raise up seed (in this life and after) to glorify God. But then that should be obvious unless you can come up with some strange amalgamation requiring multiple females to concoct that betters the individual parts?

To the people that are saying plural marriage is necessary in the eternities for having your billions of spirit children;

Question the first; What is the gestation period of a spirit child/fetus?
Question the second; Do you need to have multiple wives because your eternal wife only has limited number of spirit eggs, while you can produce unlimited spirit sperm?
Question the third; When Nephi killed Laban because he was commanded to, was he living a higher law than "Thou shalt not kill." Why or why not? Consider the parallels and the contrasts with the polygamy issue.

here is the deal with polygamy.

Does your heart want to live it? Does a man want the wonderful responsibility of taking care of and loving more than one woman? Does the wife(s) desire in their heart to share their husband, and give other woman that chance at his love? etc Are the LDS woman better then Sarah.....She shared Abraham, should they not share their husband and get Sarah's blessings?

Most LDS and fundies I know all hate polygamy. The fundies do it because they feel they "have too" which then means it is not in their heart, so it is in vein. They feel it is required.

The LDS I know don't want it, and use the "not required" as a way to ease their mind on the matter.

Neither "want it".....So as far as I am concerned whether you believe it is commanded now, justified now, or currently condemned, the long story short is if it is not in your heart to live it, then don't whether now, or later.

Did you want to get married? Are you happy? If you did want to marry, and are happy, but don't want polygamy, then stay away from it.

Everyone we know living it is miserable (except one family)

P.s. I am LDS, I just know a lot of people who are part of fundy groups. Why? because they are our other brothers, and a lot of them are more righteous then LDS.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:So ZL, I hope that you acknowledge the preeminence of Christ, the 12 apostles, 12 disciples, modern day prophets and apostles and patriarchs of old, and the great many spirits who died before the age of accountability in perfection, and let your wives go to them. We know there aren't enough for everyone to have plural, so it is the right thing to do. We'll coach you through it.

And ZL's Wife. It is time to start preparing to live this glorious higher law. Time for you to prepare to be sealed to one of these great eminent men. Preparation precedes power you know! If you wouldn't feel right about it, just read back through your husbands logic and rest at ease in comfort knowing that he gives his blessing (as he stated that he would support you if the shoe were on the other foot, well now it is!).

Yeah, I don't understand why you gotta act the way you do. It seems like you enjoy causing arguments and contention and it's kind of annoying. The quote doesn't say church leaders get first dibs on whatever woman they want, it pretty much says if the woman no longer loves the man or feels satisfied with him, she can go to another. Which makes sense. I mean, why would God force you to be with someone you didn't love for all eternity? But yeah, I love my husband quite deeply and don't anticipate ever NOT loving him so there is no issue here.

Once again we are all arguing about nothing simply because some people here cannot figure out how to derive meaning from written language.

I've skimmed the last two pages and might reply later, but probably not. I will reply here because this post was specifically addressed to me, and when I break things down word-by-word people seem to understand better.

But there was a way in which a woman could leave a man lawfully--when a woman becomes alienated in her feelings and affections from her husband, it is his duty to give her a bill and set her free--it would be fornication for a man to cohabit with his wife after she had thus become alienated from him.

I do not interpret this as a call to give up on marriage when your wife is displeased, even if her displeasement persists over some time. I believe the intent and proper interpretation of this quote is that you should not force someone to remain married to you who would otherwise and by all other means leave. It doesn't mean that you must offer your wife if a man of higher office demands her to himself.

Please understand the context of the quote. This was in the 1860s, long before the idea of no-fault divorce.

The Lord does not believe in force. The ultimate Satanic position we can assume is the position which deprives [wo]men of their free exercise of agency. Such an exercise against someone as close as one's wife is exceptionally heartless.

We are to rule without compulsory means, and with love unfeigned. We are to be like the Father, before whose throne justice, mercy, and righteous judgment go forever and have no end. The Almighty God will not force us; who are we to force each other?

Let's take a look at the conditions listed in your quote, which you claim entitles any man with "more authority" to take wives at will:

if the woman preferred a man higher in authority

If the woman does not care for her husband any longer and prefers another with higher Priesthood...

and he is willing to take her

And the desired man wants to accept her...

and her husband gives her up

and her husband willfully releases her, then the Lord is OK with that.

In case you didn't get that, ALL THREE parties must be agreed. It's a matter of agreeable and fair and proper exchange.

This means that if a man came to me and my wife, whom are happily married, and aspired to take her, no matter his Priesthood authority, he would be rejected and it would be right by God, because only one of the three parties offered their consent.

This also means that if my wife wanted to be put away and set to marry another, but I did not consent to this, and/or the man she desired did not consent, her desire would be rejected and it would be right by God.

This also means that if I want to give my wife away, but she does not desire another man, and/or no other man will take her, I cannot have my desire and it would be right by God.

Why is this hard to understand? How can you think the Lord has a problem, why would He stand in the way if there was a mutual, happy agreement by three parties to rearrange their marriage according to eternal law?

Regarding your postulation that in the eternal world Moses, Elias, Hinckley, Monson, Bednar, etc., will have a higher exaltation than any other man who fulfills the law to the fullest extent to which he is capable, that postulation is wholly false. An apostleship in the flesh is surely not a qualification for the highest glories; as we've already discussed, there are many qualified for the position of apostle whom are not called merely because God thinks their talents are better applied elsewhere. There is no fault or sin in a man because he has not been ordained to an apostleship in the flesh, and so there will be no blessing withheld from Him.

Meanwhile, those who pervert and distort the law and word of God, libel the early Church leaders, and make manifest other distortions, such as comparing the eternal, righteous law of plural marriage with the occasionally necessary physical, telestial practice of killing men, will be held accountable for their sophistry, dishonesty, and attachment to the ways of the world. Surely those who defame the prophets, minimize their teachings, reject the greater glory and refuse to accept or prepare for the celestial law and the celestial worlds will not stand guiltless at the judgment seat.

Ignoring everything else, thanks.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:No, but I don't believe in polygamy for me and mine. Like Brigham Young said, THE purpose for it was to crank out the kids. To each their own. Just not for us. It would definitely take away from what we share. I will be content to only have a few billion to add to my glory, I was never into competition, never will be. I will be content to build my seed slower through the eternities, take my time with my one wife. But we're just that way.

I'm just playing around with this argument because ZL is so zealous about this. If his logic is sound it should stand up, but it doesn't because he isn't willing to have his wife preparing now to be somebody else's eternal companion if asked (admittedly an assumption on my part). I do think he is breaking covenants now by "preparing," but I also don't care, that's between he and the Lord. And I don't pretend to know nor care what the consequences of that error will be, of that I am not to judge.

If you could not misinterpret quotes you would know it is your logic does not "stand up". There is no reason to prepare to have your wife leave you if she loves you and wants you for eternity. If there was ever any reason to believe it would be any different for us, I'm sure he would be prepared for that. My husband is willing to do all the Lord requires of him. However, God doesn't call his servants who love each other to break their sealing with one another just because someone else is coveting his neighbor's wife.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Use logic here. If you reject anything that this man was source to, then you are advocating casting out everything he did as Brigham Young's secretary and the entire Journal of Discourses he edited. Are you advocating this or just using it as an excuse to argue against what Brigham Young said?

So, you're saying when someone makes one mistake, everything they say or everything they helped others say, gets thrown out the window?

Also, there was something you said in a thread concerning birth control about how you're disappointed with people for thinking they are the exception to the rule? Isn't that a little hypocritical of you to then say in this thread that you will refuse to practice polygamy because you seem to feel you are an exception?

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Is that also true if your wife thought that she could be more happy, more blessed to be with another of higher authority?

No.

BlueSky wrote:If a woman and a man of "higher authority" wanted to be together, I don't really see how the lesser man's desires could override that. And I don't think there's any examples of it doing so in Church History... but there might be.

There is no such thing as a "lesser man" in the eyes of the Lord. Heavenly Father loves all his children equally, just as an earthly father loves all his children equally. A church calling doesn't make you a better man.

Zionlist.com's wife wrote: There is no such thing as a "lesser man" in the eyes of the Lord. Heavenly Father loves all his children equally, just as an earthly father loves all his children equally. A church calling doesn't make you a better man.

Heavenly Father loves us all equally. Okay, just so you know that doesn't equate to equal rewards. Everything is conditional - do you understand that? Or do I need to go play-by-play so you can catch up?

(See, two can play the better-than-thou game.)

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Yes, that is as pertaining to adoption.

And why wouldn't all the women be sealed to Christ? I've raised that here, the polygamists cannot answer it as it fits with their logic.

There are no polygamists on this thread. Also, if all women were sealed to Christ, all the men would be single and therefore could not receive the exaltation they have earned and therefore would severely hinder the Plan of Salvation.

Also, to everyone, sorry there are so many posts in a row from me, I haven't been on until recently and I try to reply to things as I read them and feel a need to put in my two cents.

Having read the previous two pages, I just want to clarify that if we're sealed to one person, you're sealed to everyone to whom that person is sealed, and so on all the way up.

In the Celestial Kingdom, we will all live together as the family of the Almighty God; to whom my mother, brother, father, son, wife, daughter, etc., are sealed, I am sealed also. To whom their mothers, brothers, fathers, sons, etc. are sealed, they are sealed, and I am sealed.

Anyway, that's the only point I have to add right now. : )

BlueSky wrote:

Zionlist.com's wife wrote: There is no such thing as a "lesser man" in the eyes of the Lord. Heavenly Father loves all his children equally, just as an earthly father loves all his children equally. A church calling doesn't make you a better man.

Heavenly Father loves us all equally. Okay, just so you know that doesn't equate to equal rewards. Everything is conditional - do you understand that? Or do I need to go play-by-play so you can catch up?

(See, two can play the better-than-thou game.)

Yeees, I understand that. But different callings != different rewards. The faithfulness in which you fulfill your callings is what helps to determine your rewards.

So many thoughts swirling around in my head right now.

I posted a book recommendation on the forum a couple of days ago, but I don't know that many people involved on this thread or the thread about birth control will see it. Sorry for posting basically the same thing in several places, but perhaps it will be beneficial to the discussions.

Parley P. Pratt wrote an excellent book called The Key to the Science of Theology. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but it is an exceptional book. I cannot begin to tell you the number of little "a-ha" moments that I have had from that book. It is amazing. Not scripture, mind you. There are some things that I don't quite agree with (or perhaps I just don't have my head wrapped around all of it), but 99% of it is amazing IMO. It covers so much information!--Israel, the apostasy, the restoration, the Book of Mormon, dreams, angels, visions, miracles, and much more. The entire book is just fantastic.

The last chapter deals with plural marriage and procreation and articulates so well the eternal mind-set necessary to understand these eternal laws. I can't copy and paste the whole chapter, but it is so insightful. Check my post on the "Book Recommendations" board to access the book. If you have time to read the whole thing, I highly recommend it. There's a good foundation laid for some of the points made in the last chapter that are in the preceding chapters, but those points are also able to stand on their own if you only have time to read the last chapter.

I had forgotten the idea that Eve's curse was her desire to her husband. That's why living the law of plural marriage is so difficult for women. But I think that as a woman grows in righteousness, that curse is lifted. When it is lifted completely, I think a woman's desire will be different. It's all about the fruit-one being sweet and the other being bitter. If you really know which is which, all things are made clear.

)[/quote]

zionlist.com wrote:Having read the previous two pages, I just want to clarify that if we're sealed to one person, you're sealed to everyone to whom that person is sealed, and so on all the way up.

In the Celestial Kingdom, we will all live together as the family of the Almighty God; to whom my mother, brother, father, son, wife, daughter, etc., are sealed, I am sealed also. To whom their mothers, brothers, fathers, sons, etc. are sealed, they are sealed, and I am sealed.

Anyway, that's the only point I have to add right now. : )

So, what you are saying is "Because my Heavenly Parents were married in the temple, and as their spirit child I was born in the covenant (BIC), then so is everybody else!"

Bob

Zionlist.com's wife wrote:

BlueSky wrote:

Zionlist.com's wife wrote: There is no such thing as a "lesser man" in the eyes of the Lord. Heavenly Father loves all his children equally, just as an earthly father loves all his children equally. A church calling doesn't make you a better man.

Heavenly Father loves us all equally. Okay, just so you know that doesn't equate to equal rewards. Everything is conditional - do you understand that? Or do I need to go play-by-play so you can catch up?

(See, two can play the better-than-thou game.)

Yeees, I understand that. But different callings != different rewards. The faithfulness in which you fulfill your callings is what helps to determine your rewards.

Your correct as long as you understand that "all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh!"

Bob

I think I'm the exception to a law that isn't now lived and is in fact forbidden? I think I'm the exception because I think that I can be exalted with my wife and not your first daughter too? Even your husband acknowledged that.

You could not have posted that if you thought that polygamy was the exception, therefore it is clear that you believe it is the rule. That is very sad. What more can I say than has been said?

When logic and reason aren't enough it is out of my hands.

firend wrote:
Most LDS and fundies I know all hate polygamy. The fundies do it because they feel they "have too" which then means it is not in their heart, so it is in vein. They feel it is required.

The LDS I know don't want it, and use the "not required" as a way to ease their mind on the matter.

That isn't saying much, since 1/2 the LDS I know don't (or didn't) even want the one they already have, and that is just statistics. 1/2 of the ward are or have been divorced, or adultery.

bobhenstra wrote:Your correct as long as you understand that "all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh!"

Bob

What are you saying?

bobhenstra wrote:
Your correct as long as you understand that "all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh!"

Bob

I don't believe that all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh. For example, there are many many men and women who live as righteously as possible and date and try to find an eternal companion in this life and never find them. It seems likely that some of these won't find that companion until the afterlife.
There is also the example of people who do wrong in this life and get riches and temporal gain while denying their brothers and sisters of their service and love and such and such. The Lord says they will get their reward, whether in this life, or the next.
Who are you quoting there, btw?

ithink wrote:

firend wrote:
Most LDS and fundies I know all hate polygamy. The fundies do it because they feel they "have too" which then means it is not in their heart, so it is in vein. They feel it is required.

The LDS I know don't want it, and use the "not required" as a way to ease their mind on the matter.

That isn't saying much, since 1/2 the LDS I know don't (or didn't) even want the one they already have, and that is just statistics. 1/2 of the ward are or have been divorced, or adultery.

Well, that is one of the ironies of marriage and polygamy. I remember reading an article about a Jewish convert to the Church who wrote a tract furing Joseph Smith's time discussing Judaism and polygamy. One thing he brought out that was quite controversial was that polygamy was seen as positive both by males married to women they could not stand and males married to a wife that made life wonderful in every respect.

In the case of the male in a depressing marriage, it gave hope tthat he could find someone who did appreciate him and would provide love and caring while he could also maintain the responsibilities he had with his less than admiring wife as well as his children which he might love with all his heart. In the case of the family that was in a blissful relationship, it provided the opportunity for a man to bring in more women into their ideal "law of consecration" family and just spread the happiness.

In trhe Church otday there are men and women who despise their husband/wife but stick it out for a variety of reasons. I would suspect that when the issue of eternal marriage comes up in a talk one or both of them cringe at the thought of an eternity with their spouse. I am not sure what happens to these marriages in the next life. I had one institute director who said that he felt that when we go into the next life we will suddenly become aware of the special attributes of our spouses no matter how dispicable they were in this life. Maybe he is right, or maybe there is a change of partners thing set up for the eternities.

One wonders, in those cases are the men and women who endure to the end going to be blessed with far superior spouses for the eternities?

Zionlist.com's wife wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:
Your correct as long as you understand that "all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh!"

Bob

I don't believe that all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh. For example, there are many many men and women who live as righteously as possible and date and try to find an eternal companion in this life and never find them. It seems likely that some of these won't find that companion until the afterlife. True! But it's true of everybody, the Lord hold no blessings back from those who repent.

There is also the example of people who do wrong in this life and get riches and temporal gain while denying their brothers and sisters of their service and love and such and such. The Lord says they will get their reward, whether in this life, or the next. The next life is the spirit world, where everyone will still have the ability to repent.
Who are you quoting there, btw?

Do you believe Mosiah?
(Mosiah 2:21-24.)

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Salvation is a gift, a gift purchased by the giver of the gift, Christ! We cannot earn that gift, we can only place ourselves in position to receive it. We do that by trying to do good, which when accomplished "we are blessed immediately! And, learning through faith, repentance, baptism, and, learning to understand the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

13 If thou wilt do good (blessed immediately), yea, and hold out faithful to the end (learn and understanding) thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

No matter how hard you try, you cannot "earn" a spot in the Celestial Kingdom, you must be taken there, think Temple!

Bob

Bob, that still doesn't answer who you were quoting and actually contradicts what you said about "rewards EARNED in the flesh".

bobhenstra wrote:

Zionlist.com's wife wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:
Your correct as long as you understand that "all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh!"

Bob

I don't believe that all rewards earned in the flesh are received in the flesh. For example, there are many many men and women who live as righteously as possible and date and try to find an eternal companion in this life and never find them. It seems likely that some of these won't find that companion until the afterlife. True! But it's true of everybody, the Lord hold no blessings back from those who repent.

There is also the example of people who do wrong in this life and get riches and temporal gain while denying their brothers and sisters of their service and love and such and such. The Lord says they will get their reward, whether in this life, or the next. The next life is the spirit world, where everyone will still have the ability to repent.
Who are you quoting there, btw?

Do you believe Mosiah?
(Mosiah 2:21-24.)

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Salvation is a gift, a gift purchased by the giver of the gift, Christ! We cannot earn that gift, we can only place ourselves in position to receive it. We do that by trying to do good, which when accomplished "we are blessed immediately! And, learning through faith, repentance, baptism, and, learning to understand the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

13 If thou wilt do good (blessed immediately), yea, and hold out faithful to the end (learn and understanding) thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

No matter how hard you try, you cannot "earn" a spot in the Celestial Kingdom, you must be taken there, think Temple!

Bob

You're right Bob, we cannot earn our way into the Celestial Kingdom. That would require absolute perfect obedience from birth until death. The only thing that we have earned is deserved destruction. And Im not talking about the telestial kingdom, im talking total dissolution of the body and spirit and a return to chaos. That would be our reward if justice prevailed.

Thanks to the Firstborn Son and His atoning sacrifice we can qualify ourselves to receive mercy and forgiveness. Everything we receive is because of him. Yes, of course he has conditions that we must abide by if we are to receive his gifts, but they are still gifts. We dont deserve salvation, we dont deserve blessings, but he still gives us them as though we were perfect if we just listen to his voice and try to do his will to the best of our ability. Its all thanks to Jesus Christ. His name is the only name by which we are saved. The Father could not save us even if he wants to..and he does! Only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

How many times have I heard people get up in sacrament meeting and testify that they are ressurected through Jesus Christ but receive exaltation by their own works and merits! Lets hope for their sake that God doesn't take them at their word.

NoGreaterLove wrote:I once read a statement by one of the prophets wives. She wrote in her journal how she felt when asked to live the law, but received a revelation that allowed her to see a portion of the glory she would share with her husband if she live the law. She remarked that it changed her mind immediately.
I wish I could find it.

I think your thinking of Vilate Kimball. She actually saw two things in her vision. The first thing she saw was what it would truely be like to be a celestial wife to her husband, as his queen, and the great glory they would share. Then she was shown the further glory that would come to her husband if he were to have more wives. She knew it was true and gave her husband permission. She never denied knowing it was true. But shared many times what a great trial it was for her.

An interesting part of this story is that Heber C Kimball still loved Vilate particularly, even though he was married to many other women. He wrote in a letter I believe, that he hoped that they(He and Vilate) would never be seperated in death and said he prayed to the Lord that they would leave this earth together. Well Vilate died first and in less than a year Heber died as well.
That has the makings of a true love story for me, I just feel bad for the other women who may have been less loved.

BTW great post just above Lukeair.