Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Luke
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Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by Luke »

“Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”

- Brigham Young


What think ye?

And no I'm not deriding the brethren... I'm instigating a productive discussion, so don't start.

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ori
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by ori »

Very interesting. Do you have a source for this quote?

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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ori wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:33 am Very interesting. Do you have a source for this quote?
It's been quoted in a lot of places, including some Church publications I believe, but the place I just copied the quote from cited this:

(Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], page 106. See also The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, volume 4, edited by Richard S. Van Wagoner [Salt Lake City: The Smith-Pettit Foundation, 2009], pages 2478–2479.)

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markharr
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by markharr »

Is he talking about the leaders of the church or the leaders of the country? It could be interpreted to mean that the government will force the church to do things that are against church doctrine. At this point I wouldn't put anything past Pierre Delecto.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by Luke »

markharr wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:49 am Is he talking about the leaders of the church or the leaders of the country? It could be interpreted to mean that the government will force the church to do things that are against church doctrine. At this point I wouldn't put anything past Pierre Delecto.
Well when Brigham said 'this people' he always referenced the Saints. Plus, he makes it clear that the Church would need saving...

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by Robin Hood »

markharr wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:49 am Is he talking about the leaders of the church or the leaders of the country? It could be interpreted to mean that the government will force the church to do things that are against church doctrine. At this point I wouldn't put anything past Pierre Delecto.
I think this is the crucial question.
If we look at Brigham's other utterances, "this people" appears to refer to members of the church.
Therefore "the leaders of this people" is very likely to refer to the church leadership in my view. It's a bit of a stretch to interpret this quote in any other way in my view.
So I suppose the next crucial question is, was Bro. Brigham speaking prophetically or simply expressing an opinion or conclusion he had drawn?

My personal view is that he was predicting (not the same as prophesying) that the church leadership will lead the people to the brink of hell, though the reason for the errant leadership is not stated.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:29 am “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”

- Brigham Young


What think ye?

And no I'm not deriding the brethren... I'm instigating a productive discussion, so don't start.
It's a lot easier to determine what he meant by reading his comments in context. The first part sounds familiar, but I'm unsure about the second. I don't remember pres young talking about the one mighty and strong. You really should look up the reference and read it, then I think you'll have a good idea what he meant. I'd be interested in what you find out. I'm sure you can find the whole speech on the Internet.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Where did you copy the quote from, what website?

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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jmack wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:02 am Where did you copy the quote from, what website?
Someone compiled a load of quotes about not trusting in the arm of flesh:

https://ldstruthmatters.blogspot.com/20 ... flesh.html

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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jmack wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:59 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:29 am “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”

- Brigham Young


What think ye?

And no I'm not deriding the brethren... I'm instigating a productive discussion, so don't start.
It's a lot easier to determine what he meant by reading his comments in context. The first part sounds familiar, but I'm unsure about the second. I don't remember pres young talking about the one mighty and strong. You really should look up the reference and read it, then I think you'll have a good idea what he meant. I'd be interested in what you find out. I'm sure you can find the whole speech on the Internet.
If you scroll up I cited where its from (Collected Discourses of Brigham Young, among others)

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Baurak Ale
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by Baurak Ale »

The tares are beginning to ripen. The devil has led a dastardly charge in our day against the church, and so many are falling for it. It is this: they adorn the living prophets with flowers while heaping stones upon the graves of the dead ones.

Specifically we see a great separation from Brigham Young, a distancing from his teachings and practices, apologies for his savoring of righteousness. Modern Israelites cast stones of politically correct abhorrence on his failure to live up to their own egalitarian notions of what a prophet should be, when they ought to cast a cloak of charity on his weaknesses—and that only AFTER they have cast the same upon themselves and each other (that Brigham's weaknesses might be distinguished from our own, imposed faulty notions). Brother Brigham's motes gleam brightly in the light of modern sensitivities, which light makes our own beams quite invisible to our all-seeing eyes. Alas for the sins of Israel. We think we are wise, and seeing we see not.

Well, I have sought communion with the Holy Spirit and that spirit has borne a great witness in my heart that has remained undimmed over the years: Brigham Young was right. He taught only what he received, and he received most of what he taught directly from Joseph Smith. ("But where is the manuscript proof?" the masses angrily shout, having searched not the spirit of truth.) Today there are others who sit in Moses' seat, and we must listen to and obey their counsel, for there are the keys. We may want to sacrifice for the sake of truth, but it is better to obey than to sacrifice, and God only accepts those sacrifices that He asks for; we would be wise to not follow the path of Cain and sacrifice at the behest of the wrong spirit. I testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is yet the Lord's church, and the Lord will gather us as a hen gathereth her chicks, if or when we will ALL have faith and turn. In the meantime, to the wheat who are awaiting the Lord's gatherers, there is comfort and pain in seeing the tares manifest, that we might be cleansed to a body of pure faith.

Now for a matter of speculation: the one mighty and strong, whom Brigham Young said the Lord would "raise," I believe could be the resurrected Joseph Smith along with some of his early colleagues. That would be a strange act indeed, something we had not considered (seriously, at least). The marred servant would indeed be healed. People think the one mighty and strong will be named David as a given name and not as a "new" name. Why is that? Do we know Joseph's "new" name?

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Baurak Ale wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:11 am Now for a matter of speculation: the one mighty and strong, whom Brigham Young said the Lord would "raise," I believe could be the resurrected Joseph Smith along with some of his early colleagues. That would be a strange act indeed, something we had not considered (seriously, at least). The marred servant would indeed be healed. People think the one mighty and strong will be named David as a given name and not as a "new" name. Why is that? Do we know Joseph's "new" name?
Ogden Kraut seemed to agree in his book 'The One Mighty And Strong'. Its interesting, but I'm not sure if I also agree.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by mahalanobis »

jmack wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:59 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:29 am “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”

- Brigham Young


What think ye?

And no I'm not deriding the brethren... I'm instigating a productive discussion, so don't start.
It's a lot easier to determine what he meant by reading his comments in context. The first part sounds familiar, but I'm unsure about the second. I don't remember pres young talking about the one mighty and strong. You really should look up the reference and read it, then I think you'll have a good idea what he meant. I'd be interested in what you find out. I'm sure you can find the whole speech on the Internet.
My understanding is that, for this speech, we only have recorded 'minutes' and journal entries.

From my nominal searching, it a appears that there are at least 2 mentions of this speech by two different people who were there. I didn't track them down and find physical copies of their journals though, so I apologize if this info is incorrect.

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Mindfields
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Specifically we see a great separation from Brigham Young, a distancing from his teachings and practices, apologies for his savoring of righteousness.
And thank God we did.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by mahalanobis »

Mindfields wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:19 am
Specifically we see a great separation from Brigham Young, a distancing from his teachings and practices, apologies for his savoring of righteousness.
And thank God we did.
Not saying that I agree here. But I'd like to draw attention that this brings up an interesting point: That many members (probably the majority of members now) think that we were were on the brink of hell under BY.

If so, I guess Wilford Woodruff would be the OMS who brought the church out of obscurity with OD1. It doesn't make a very interesting end-times story, but it sure can validate people's gospel-worldview.
Last edited by mahalanobis on January 29th, 2020, 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

jmack
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by jmack »

mahalanobis wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:18 am
jmack wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:59 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:29 am “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”

- Brigham Young


What think ye?

And no I'm not deriding the brethren... I'm instigating a productive discussion, so don't start.
It's a lot easier to determine what he meant by reading his comments in context. The first part sounds familiar, but I'm unsure about the second. I don't remember pres young talking about the one mighty and strong. You really should look up the reference and read it, then I think you'll have a good idea what he meant. I'd be interested in what you find out. I'm sure you can find the whole speech on the Internet.
My understanding is that, for this speech, we only have recorded 'minutes' and journal entries.

From my nominal searching, it a appears that there are at least 2 mentions of this speech by two different people who were there. I didn't track them down and find physical copies of their journals though, so I apologize if this info is incorrect.
That is likely true, it was given in the bowery, but you should still be able to find the speech, as it was recorded for the journal of discourses. Whether it's really accurate or not depends on the scribes. I just think going to the source is important in trying to decide what someone meant. You should be able to find it by searching the date, aug 24th 1867, then make sure its the bowery, they had different locations. Byu should have it online.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:15 am
Baurak Ale wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:11 am Now for a matter of speculation: the one mighty and strong, whom Brigham Young said the Lord would "raise," I believe could be the resurrected Joseph Smith along with some of his early colleagues. That would be a strange act indeed, something we had not considered (seriously, at least). The marred servant would indeed be healed. People think the one mighty and strong will be named David as a given name and not as a "new" name. Why is that? Do we know Joseph's "new" name?
Ogden Kraut seemed to agree in his book 'The One Mighty And Strong'. Its interesting, but I'm not sure if I also agree.
In this, ogden kraut shows his polygamist beliefs, as this was a fundamentalist claim. I personally don't believe it for one second, since I think reincarnation is false. Joseph's not coming back until the millennium and then he'll be a resurrected person. Adam is coming, to hand over the keys, to jesus christ, who is the most likely candidate for omas, iyam. I know it's not a romantic, exciting notion, that all the prophecies are talking about christ, but it's the most logical choice. If you think we're close to the second coming, then it all leads to Christ victorious, glorified in the flesh.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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jmack wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:36 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:15 am
Baurak Ale wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:11 am Now for a matter of speculation: the one mighty and strong, whom Brigham Young said the Lord would "raise," I believe could be the resurrected Joseph Smith along with some of his early colleagues. That would be a strange act indeed, something we had not considered (seriously, at least). The marred servant would indeed be healed. People think the one mighty and strong will be named David as a given name and not as a "new" name. Why is that? Do we know Joseph's "new" name?
Ogden Kraut seemed to agree in his book 'The One Mighty And Strong'. Its interesting, but I'm not sure if I also agree.
In this, ogden kraut shows his polygamist beliefs, as this was a fundamentalist claim. I personally don't believe it for one second, since I think reincarnation is false. Joseph's not coming back until the millennium and then he'll be a resurrected person. Adam is coming, to hand over the keys, to jesus christ, who is the most likely candidate for omas, iyam. I know it's not a romantic, exciting notion, that all the prophecies are talking about christ, but it's the most logical choice. If you think we're close to the second coming, then it all leads to Christ victorious, glorified in the flesh.
How can it be Christ if the Servant is 'a servant in the hands of Christ'. Is Christ in his own hands? Was he talking about himself when he spoke of 'my servant' in D&C, Isaiah, to the Nephites etc? Of course not.

And yeah I don't agree with Ogden

EDIT: read the JST of Matthew 17, where the 'Elias to restore all things' is talked about. Nephi also talks about this guy a lot as I've been reading in the last few weeks, never noticed it before to be honest.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by JSmith »

What is the full context of the quote? previous and following paragraphs are important. One line quotes are all too often misleading.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by JSmith »

Brigham Young NEVER said this. the source for this spurious statement is "The Complete Discourses of Brigham Youn" editor Richard Van Wagoner

Mr. Van Wagoner cites Truth Magazine for this statement because there is no other source for it.

The statement is actually cited 12 times in Truth: 1:135; 3:163; 6:109; 6:231; 7:233; 9:253; 10:15; 14:70; 15:104; 15:128; 16:103; 19:255; but the only source Musser ever gives, other than citing his own previous publications, is that it was said at a conference in Provo shortly before the death of Brigham Young.

Mr. Van Wagoner ascribes the statement to a date of 24 August 1867 although 10 years hardly sounds like "shortly" before the death of Brigham Young.

his statement first appears in the June 1944 issue of Truth Magazine, some 67 years after the death of Brigham Young. The statement does not appear in any earlier source because Brigham Young never said it.

This is another false quite, please let it die already.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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JSmith wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:54 am Brigham Young NEVER said this. the source for this spurious statement is "The Complete Discourses of Brigham Youn" editor Richard Van Wagoner

Mr. Van Wagoner cites Truth Magazine for this statement because there is no other source for it.

The statement is actually cited 12 times in Truth: 1:135; 3:163; 6:109; 6:231; 7:233; 9:253; 10:15; 14:70; 15:104; 15:128; 16:103; 19:255; but the only source Musser ever gives, other than citing his own previous publications, is that it was said at a conference in Provo shortly before the death of Brigham Young.

Mr. Van Wagoner ascribes the statement to a date of 24 August 1867 although 10 years hardly sounds like "shortly" before the death of Brigham Young.

his statement first appears in the June 1944 issue of Truth Magazine, some 67 years after the death of Brigham Young. The statement does not appear in any earlier source because Brigham Young never said it.

This is another false quite, please let it die already.
It was actually well documented by many who attended, also very kindly scroll up to see the sources I cited, including Church ones.

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inho
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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

Post by inho »

JSmith wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:54 am Brigham Young NEVER said this. the source for this spurious statement is "The Complete Discourses of Brigham Youn" editor Richard Van Wagoner

Mr. Van Wagoner cites Truth Magazine for this statement because there is no other source for it.

The statement is actually cited 12 times in Truth: 1:135; 3:163; 6:109; 6:231; 7:233; 9:253; 10:15; 14:70; 15:104; 15:128; 16:103; 19:255; but the only source Musser ever gives, other than citing his own previous publications, is that it was said at a conference in Provo shortly before the death of Brigham Young.

Mr. Van Wagoner ascribes the statement to a date of 24 August 1867 although 10 years hardly sounds like "shortly" before the death of Brigham Young.

his statement first appears in the June 1944 issue of Truth Magazine, some 67 years after the death of Brigham Young. The statement does not appear in any earlier source because Brigham Young never said it.

This is another false quite, please let it die already.
Indeed. Truth magazine or John T. Clark seems to be the oldest source for this quote. Elden J. Watson and Van Hale have been unable to locate the original source.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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markharr wrote: January 29th, 2020, 7:49 am Is he talking about the leaders of the church or the leaders of the country? It could be interpreted to mean that the government will force the church to do things that are against church doctrine. At this point I wouldn't put anything past Pierre Delecto.
I really don't like that guy.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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mahalanobis wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:23 am
Mindfields wrote: January 29th, 2020, 8:19 am
Specifically we see a great separation from Brigham Young, a distancing from his teachings and practices, apologies for his savoring of righteousness.
And thank God we did.
Not saying that I agree here. But I'd like to draw attention that this brings up an interesting point: That many members (probably the majority of members now) think that we were were on the brink of hell under BY.

If so, I guess Wilford Woodruff would be the OMS who brought the church out of obscurity with OD1. It doesn't make a very interesting end-times story, but it sure can validate people's gospel-worldview.
yes. Brigham is much maligned, it seems. must be nice....living in 2020...judging someone who lived in the 1800's based on 2020 hindsight. He was a complicated man, definitely, said and did things that hurt the church to this day. But I think he actually saved the church: so much confusion after JS, church was almost lost. Brigham overcame that, united the other apostles and the vast majority of the members, moved almost the entire church across the country, established a settlement in a desert, created a way for everyone to cross the plains- it was the most successful exodus since Israel left Egypt. There hasn't been anything like it. He created almost singlehandedly the settlement of the Rocky Mountains including settlements in Canada, Mexico, California, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, and Arizona. He had temples built, missionaries sent, entire economies created, and engineered a masterful plan that is really the envy of the country to this day. Utah is the crossroads of the west because of Brigham- transcontinental railroad, transcontinental telegraph, etc. Definitely a modern day Moses. Whatever his faults, I'm glad my ancestors followed his advice and crossed the plains.

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Re: Brigham Young: "This Church will be led onto the very brink of hell..."

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viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53657&p=996029#p996029

Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They
never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can
hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired
with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do
as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham
Young, JD 1:312).

Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man
to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in
their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they
settle down in a state of blind self-security,

trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a
reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they
could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the
right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord
dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).

We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church
leaders say.
The Holy Ghost is the only source of truth that will never lead us astray.

So said Brigham Young.
“The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way
and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or
not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to
obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray”
(Brigham Young,
JD 6:100).


Brigham Young in 1867, in Provo preached these words:
"This Church will be led onto the very brink of Hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the One Mighty and Strong * * * to save and redeem this Church." Per his 1867 Bowery conference sermon.

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