LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

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pho·to·syn·the·sis
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

nightlight wrote: December 17th, 2019, 8:38 pm This story, imo, is more about the feds starting their push....and less about how the 15 spend.

If we want to fix the spending habits of our church, we need to do it amongst ourselves....when we are not being attacked by the oligarchy
So true. The benevolent IRS is the real scam. $100B...peanuts. IRS is a collection agency for the Oligarchs. Federal Reserve was established, and then right after the IRS, to guarantee debt payments on the loan interest.

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David13
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by David13 »

I haven't been misled.
dc

Just seems like a lot of mud slinging at the church.

They forgot to add tho', ... "and all those Mormons are boycotting both the alcohol and cigarette industries."

Some people think that is a great sin.

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mirkwood
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by mirkwood »

I haven't been misled either.

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captainfearnot
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by captainfearnot »

It would be cool if the church kept doing things like they did in the 1980s, when budget went away. (Remember budget?) There was a big announcement that the church was now financially stable enough to fund all of its own operation costs without asking the well-heeled to kick in extra every year.

It seems like between then and now there could have been a lot of similar announcements as the church amassed more and more wealth. I don't know what they might have been. Obviously tithing wouldn't go away because that's an eternal principle. But maybe one year they announce that full-time missionaries will no longer have to pay their own way. Or that the church welfare system can now be sustained through tithing alone. Or maybe they build enough church schools for every member to get a free or heavily subsidized college education.

Instead, we're told that all the janitors will be laid off and members will have to start cleaning the buildings themselves. And more wards per aging building. And no more sports leagues or roadshows and tighter budget guidelines all around. Stricter scrutiny of anyone requesting financial assistance. More and more "service missions" which are basically just free maintenance and groundskeeping for the church.

Is it possible that this shift in perspective coincides with the establishment of Ensign Peak in 1997? That we went from a community of like minded saints working toward a common cause, to something that resembles an activist hedge fund?

drtanner
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by drtanner »

captainfearnot wrote: December 18th, 2019, 8:54 am It would be cool if the church kept doing things like they did in the 1980s, when budget went away. (Remember budget?) There was a big announcement that the church was now financially stable enough to fund all of its own operation costs without asking the well-heeled to kick in extra every year.

It seems like between then and now there could have been a lot of similar announcements as the church amassed more and more wealth. I don't know what they might have been. Obviously tithing wouldn't go away because that's an eternal principle. But maybe one year they announce that full-time missionaries will no longer have to pay their own way. Or that the church welfare system can now be sustained through tithing alone. Or maybe they build enough church schools for every member to get a free or heavily subsidized college education.

Instead, we're told that all the janitors will be laid off and members will have to start cleaning the buildings themselves. And more wards per aging building. And no more sports leagues or roadshows and tighter budget guidelines all around. Stricter scrutiny of anyone requesting financial assistance. More and more "service missions" which are basically just free maintenance and groundskeeping for the church.

Is it possible that this shift in perspective coincides with the establishment of Ensign Peak in 1997? That we went from a community of like minded saints working toward a common cause, to something that resembles an activist hedge fund?
Or perhaps the Lord knows that there are some in the country who won’t stop until it looses its tax exempt status and that it will continue rapid growth in places like Africa who will need additional support and so he in his wisdom is planning for such times.

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topcat
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by topcat »

captainfearnot wrote: December 18th, 2019, 8:54 am It would be cool if the church kept doing things like they did in the 1980s, when budget went away. (Remember budget?) There was a big announcement that the church was now financially stable enough to fund all of its own operation costs without asking the well-heeled to kick in extra every year.

It seems like between then and now there could have been a lot of similar announcements as the church amassed more and more wealth. I don't know what they might have been. Obviously tithing wouldn't go away because that's an eternal principle. But maybe one year they announce that full-time missionaries will no longer have to pay their own way. Or that the church welfare system can now be sustained through tithing alone. Or maybe they build enough church schools for every member to get a free or heavily subsidized college education.

Instead, we're told that all the janitors will be laid off and members will have to start cleaning the buildings themselves. And more wards per aging building. And no more sports leagues or roadshows and tighter budget guidelines all around. Stricter scrutiny of anyone requesting financial assistance. More and more "service missions" which are basically just free maintenance and groundskeeping for the church.

Is it possible that this shift in perspective coincides with the establishment of Ensign Peak in 1997? That we went from a community of like minded saints working toward a common cause, to something that resembles an activist hedge fund?
And I might add that since about that time people being called into leadership positions like bishop and stake president, not all the time, but most of the time have been the corporate manager type of people. They are yes-men. They are white collar workers who tow the company line.

Before the 1990s and especially in the 50s through the 70s, the avuncular scriptorian was called as a bishop or stake president. Nowadays it's mid-level managers, vice presidents, lawyers, marketing professionals, executives, in short, those who pay a healthy tithing, and those who wear fancy suits and look the part. If you are a general authority, then the look test must apply to your wife as well. Pretty much only women who are slim pass the test. It's all about PR, and somehow appearance means more than quality of discipleship.

The manager class today with large tithing donation history are rewarded for their "faithfulness".

Your Ensign Peak Advisors analysis certainly appears to explain how the Mormon culture has not only devolved but been decimated by corporatism.

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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by AGStacker »

I stopped paying tithing to the church at the end of 2012 I think. Read the law of tithing word for word with no preconceived notions and it is apparent that it is taught wrong by the Mormon church. The church changed the tithing slip to say something along the lines of donated funds are now the churches and they can use them how they deem.

Those that are thus tithed = those who come into the church and consecrate their surplus property (property not needed to support their household) then pay 1/10 of their interest annually. Interest != income!!! Tithing was supposed to be after necessary expenses are paid, what have you saved this year? Sometimes your savings are ZERO or NEGATIVE then you would pay no tithing. If you saved $10k then you are tithed from the $10k. It is hard to build up the church (which is REALLY done organically at the grassroots level) when the church doesn't allow their own people to come out from under bondage.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Michelle »

I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.

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David13
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by David13 »

AGStacker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 10:02 am I stopped paying tithing to the church at the end of 2012 I think. Read the law of tithing word for word with no preconceived notions and it is apparent that it is taught wrong by the Mormon church. The church changed the tithing slip to say something along the lines of donated funds are now the churches and they can use them how they deem.

Those that are thus tithed = those who come into the church and consecrate their surplus property (property not needed to support their household) then pay 1/10 of their interest annually. Interest != income!!! Tithing was supposed to be after necessary expenses are paid, what have you saved this year? Sometimes your savings are ZERO or NEGATIVE then you would pay no tithing. If you saved $10k then you are tithed from the $10k. It is hard to build up the church (which is REALLY done organically at the grassroots level) when the church doesn't allow their own people to come out from under bondage.

I don't understand why people gripe about their tithe.

My understanding is that it is an 'honor system' type thing where it is up to you to determine. Which means "determine as you see fit to determine".

Same with words of wisdom. Do you follow as YOU determine it should be followed.

As far as I know there is no audit of this, "let us look at your diet/menu, or let us look at your finances.

There are those (our previous Bishop) who has said in essence the words of wisdom are not "rules absolute" but guidelines.

That must be so as so many have so many different interpretations as to what it all means.

So ...
dc

Trucker
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Trucker »

Michelle wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:17 am I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.
Another example of the story being the reaction...not the story. But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal. And whether the guy is an apostate is not material to the facts, which hopefully we get to, but seems to have pretty good evidence.

Why wouldn't the church pay tax? Because the fund grows much faster without being taxed. But the first question is not the motivation for an alleged misdeed. It's finding out if the misdeed was done. Let's start with that and see if it's true. We can ask why later.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Michelle »

Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am
Michelle wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:17 am I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.
Another example of the story being the reaction...not the story. The opening and closing statements are my reaction. All of the points I brought up are about the story.But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal. I'm pretty sure it has been stated on multiple occasions that they are audited by outside firms.And whether the guy is an apostate is not material to the facts, which hopefully we get to, but seems to have pretty good evidence. I am looking for motives, on both sides. His apostasy absolutely has bearing.

Why wouldn't the church pay tax? Because the fund grows much faster without being taxed.Well, since they do pay taxes on their for-profit ventures, and as you pointed out elsewhere, advise their members to do the same, the motive seems weak. But the first question is not the motivation for an alleged misdeed. It's finding out if the misdeed was done. Let's start with that and see if it's true. We can ask why later.You have started a number of threads on this topic not all focused on whether or not it is true, but on your assumption of guilt by the Church. I agree that knowing the truth is important, but none of the threads thus far move us closer to that objective, since, as far as I know, we are all looking at the same information right now and waiting for the IRS to investigate. The threads are all about what we think and understand based on that information, so this post is as valid as any others as far as I can see.

Trucker
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Trucker »

Michelle wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am
Michelle wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:17 am I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.
Another example of the story being the reaction...not the story. The opening and closing statements are my reaction. All of the points I brought up are about the story.But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal. I'm pretty sure it has been stated on multiple occasions that they are audited by outside firms.And whether the guy is an apostate is not material to the facts, which hopefully we get to, but seems to have pretty good evidence. I am looking for motives, on both sides. His apostasy absolutely has bearing.

Why wouldn't the church pay tax? Because the fund grows much faster without being taxed.Well, since they do pay taxes on their for-profit ventures, and as you pointed out elsewhere, advise their members to do the same, the motive seems weak. But the first question is not the motivation for an alleged misdeed. It's finding out if the misdeed was done. Let's start with that and see if it's true. We can ask why later.You have started a number of threads on this topic not all focused on whether or not it is true, but on your assumption of guilt by the Church. I agree that knowing the truth is important, but none of the threads thus far move us closer to that objective, since, as far as I know, we are all looking at the same information right now and waiting for the IRS to investigate. The threads are all about what we think and understand based on that information, so this post is as valid as any others as far as I can see.
Ok, have you read the PDF and watched the video? Because I have. I've seen the available facts at this point. Do you see evidence of wrong doing?

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captainfearnot
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by captainfearnot »

Serragon wrote: December 17th, 2019, 5:25 pm The purpose of the Church is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to perform the ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation.

The puprose of the Church is not to provide charity. That is an individual responsibility. Any tithes spent on charity takes away from the actual purpose of the church organization.
The church's stated four-fold mission indicates otherwise.

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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Tbone »

Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal.
The church is audited by an outside firm, or at least it was audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers 15 years ago. It's unlikely that practice has stopped since then.

Trucker
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Trucker »

Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal.
The church is audited by an outside firm, or at least it was audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers 15 years ago. It's unlikely that practice has stopped since then.
This is news to me. I have never heard this. Can you supply me some support for this? Particularly for EPA, not some other separate entity.

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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Tbone »

Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm
Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal.
The church is audited by an outside firm, or at least it was audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers 15 years ago. It's unlikely that practice has stopped since then.
This is news to me. I have never heard this. Can you supply me some support for this?
PwC Senior Managers told us during an office visit back around 2003 or 2004.

Another fun fact is that President Hinckley insisted that the entire church folliow the internal control guidelines of the Sarbanes Oxley Act even though as a religious institution it wasn't required. I assume that would mean external auditors were also auditing processes as well.

I learned that one from the Director of Internal Audit at BYU in one of my many failed job interviews in college. The best part was when at the very end of the interview I accidentally knocked all of his business cards off the edge of his desk and onto the floor.

Sorry, my only experience with EPA is when the director came to speak to my Investments class at BYU in 2005. Now I wish I'd kept my notes.
Last edited by Tbone on December 18th, 2019, 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Trucker
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Trucker »

Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:59 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm
Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 11:38 am But the church is not audited by an outside firm. It's all internal.
The church is audited by an outside firm, or at least it was audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers 15 years ago. It's unlikely that practice has stopped since then.
This is news to me. I have never heard this. Can you supply me some support for this?
PwC Senior Managers told us during an office visit back around 2003 or 2004.

Another fun fact is that President Hinckley insisted that the entire church folliow the internal control guidelines of the Sarbanes Oxley Act even though as a religious institution it wasn't required. I assume that would mean external auditors were also auditing processes as well.

I learned that one from the Director of Internal Audit at BYU in one of my many failed job interviews in college. The best part was when at the very end of the interview I accidentally knocked all of his business cards off the edge of his desk and onto the floor.
What did they say was audited exactly? There are a lot of organizations and entities.

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GrandMasterB
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by GrandMasterB »

Thinker wrote: December 17th, 2019, 8:05 pm
dewajack wrote: December 17th, 2019, 3:28 pm Do we know beyond doubt that the church has been dirty in their financial doings?
Yes.
1) They warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:
  • 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
    1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
    2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
    Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving. Who do TITHES belong to? God. And how do we love God? By loving the least of these.

Grand ribon-cutting opening for another mall (at least 2 now) built using the name of Jesus Christ...
Image

Image

Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Image
Just remember that justification is the grease on the bobsled to hell.

Tbone
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Tbone »

Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 1:01 pm
Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:59 pm
Trucker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm
Tbone wrote: December 18th, 2019, 12:46 pm

The church is audited by an outside firm, or at least it was audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers 15 years ago. It's unlikely that practice has stopped since then.
This is news to me. I have never heard this. Can you supply me some support for this?
PwC Senior Managers told us during an office visit back around 2003 or 2004.

Another fun fact is that President Hinckley insisted that the entire church folliow the internal control guidelines of the Sarbanes Oxley Act even though as a religious institution it wasn't required. I assume that would mean external auditors were also auditing processes as well.

I learned that one from the Director of Internal Audit at BYU in one of my many failed job interviews in college. The best part was when at the very end of the interview I accidentally knocked all of his business cards off the edge of his desk and onto the floor.
What did they say was audited exactly? There are a lot of organizations and entities.
That's a good question. I think they just said that they audit the church. That's not very specific and I don't know if they would have told us more anyway. At the time I was pretty unaware of how organizations create so many different entities for different reasons. But based on what BYU's internal audit director said, I think it's highly likely the entire organization was and still is audited by an external firm. I wish I knew for sure, though.

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GrandMasterB
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by GrandMasterB »

AGStacker wrote: December 18th, 2019, 10:02 am I stopped paying tithing to the church at the end of 2012 I think. Read the law of tithing word for word with no preconceived notions and it is apparent that it is taught wrong by the Mormon church. The church changed the tithing slip to say something along the lines of donated funds are now the churches and they can use them how they deem.

Those that are thus tithed = those who come into the church and consecrate their surplus property (property not needed to support their household) then pay 1/10 of their interest annually. Interest != income!!! Tithing was supposed to be after necessary expenses are paid, what have you saved this year? Sometimes your savings are ZERO or NEGATIVE then you would pay no tithing. If you saved $10k then you are tithed from the $10k. It is hard to build up the church (which is REALLY done organically at the grassroots level) when the church doesn't allow their own people to come out from under bondage.
So essentially I can just make sure I spend all my money every year and never have to pay any tithing? Wow, what enlightenment!

Ferrisbueller
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Ferrisbueller »

I have a feeling there may be some truth to this. I've heard of the church giving huge overnight loans with big interest rates to those in the corporate world. I really think the truth will come out eventually about the church's finances which will raddle even the most loyal members. This is not good. It can tick members off because of the low budgets and church buildings in poor and bad shape as if the church has no money. If anything it is the members of the 70s that were successful in the business world turning the church into a money-making machine thinking they are doing the church a great service but really in the process, they are changing the church for the worse. This won't end well.

tdj
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by tdj »

When our family was in a very bad spot, the church was quite generous in helping us out. Our bishop even paid for things like insurance policies that he really wasn't supposed to pay for.
I think it's smart of the church to stockpile that kind of cash and investments. The church is a bit richer then I realized, but it certainly explains where the money for all those temples is coming from.
The IRS is corrupt to the core. It's just another part of the swamp that needs drained, and I for one don't give a rat's butt what that thieving department thinks.
I'm wondering if that Neilson guy is related to the prophet?

Ferrisbueller
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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Ferrisbueller »

Some say the Rome Italy Temple was a complete PR stunt. To some, it looks worse than the controversial mall in SLC. There are some areas where church buildings are so badly needed with 3-4 wards crammed in a beat-up chapel. A lot of money went into the Rome temple. People are telling me something isn't smelling right with where priorities are going. Like how there is one black Mormon tabernacle choir singer and the camera makes sure to zoom in on that individual every conference. People say to just close down the PR marketing office now.

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Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by SmallFarm »

h_p wrote: December 17th, 2019, 1:41 pm
LukeAir2008 wrote: December 17th, 2019, 1:18 pm The Church has repeatedly insisted that its ‘sacred tithing funds’ are not used for investments like real estate (City Creek) and stock market speculations etc.

According to Ensign Peak Advisors own internal documents this is obviously a blatant lie.

Why didn’t they just admit that they gamble with our tithing. It’s the lies that are the most disturbing thing, not where the money goes.

I’ve always defended the Church till I’m blue in the face and insisted that tithing is never used for speculative investments but that it is the proceeds from Church businesses - nothing to do with the ecclesiastical organisation.

I was wrong.
"I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them." -Oaks

"Sometimes...mistakes were made." -Uchtdorf

Probably the best we'll get from people we're supposed to believe are prophets.
They are called to be prophets. Your bishop has a similar calling. If your faith is in Jesus you won't be disappointed when men fail.

Trucker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1783

Re: LDS Church Accused Of Misleading Members On $100B Investment Fund

Post by Trucker »

SmallFarm wrote: December 19th, 2019, 10:31 am
h_p wrote: December 17th, 2019, 1:41 pm
LukeAir2008 wrote: December 17th, 2019, 1:18 pm The Church has repeatedly insisted that its ‘sacred tithing funds’ are not used for investments like real estate (City Creek) and stock market speculations etc.

According to Ensign Peak Advisors own internal documents this is obviously a blatant lie.

Why didn’t they just admit that they gamble with our tithing. It’s the lies that are the most disturbing thing, not where the money goes.

I’ve always defended the Church till I’m blue in the face and insisted that tithing is never used for speculative investments but that it is the proceeds from Church businesses - nothing to do with the ecclesiastical organisation.

I was wrong.
"I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them." -Oaks

"Sometimes...mistakes were made." -Uchtdorf

Probably the best we'll get from people we're supposed to believe are prophets.
They are called to be prophets. Your bishop has a similar calling. If your faith is in Jesus you won't be disappointed when men fail.
I think this is right. And we shouldn't think that our leaders could never fail.

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