Poll: #1 Reason Church Growth Stagnant or in Decline

[iWriteStuff]

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

Trust me, I understand enabling and people who exploit others' charity for their personal gain.

My main point was don't be so hasty to judge. Throw a cloak of charity over your fellow man once in a while.

And my point is that in Los Angeles you can't. There are just too many of them, vast armies, legions of street zombies. So you need to be more selective in actually trying to find one that you can feed.
dc

Well, use your best judgment/discernment then.

[David13]

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

Trust me, I understand enabling and people who exploit others' charity for their personal gain.

My main point was don't be so hasty to judge. Throw a cloak of charity over your fellow man once in a while.

And my point is that in Los Angeles you can't. There are just too many of them, vast armies, legions of street zombies. So you need to be more selective in actually trying to find one that you can feed.
dc

Well, use your best judgment/discernment then.

I do. That's what I encourage people to do. But some say it bothers their conscience. It shouldn't.
dc

[Separatist]

Judging how others choose to give or refrain from giving is pointless. There was a time that I was so obsessed with trying to give anything, all the time, that it almost became a burden, a works type thing that I could say to myself, "see, look at my good works". Then one day, when trying to find every last dollar to give the guy at the corner light, the thought came to me, "why don't you use that to give a nice gift to your daughter instead." We can become so obsessed with something to our own detriment. Now I don't fret. If I'm able to sure, if not, no biggie.

[Original_Intent]

I'd say lack of transparency, problems with history that it appears the church is dragging feet about clearing up, the church feels like it is looking for its own identity (people may act like they like this, but the truth is, no one wants that from a church - or not many do)

[jsk]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

[Striker]

Do you want to invite your neighbors to come and worship with you? Come, be ignored, have your kids ignored. Watch leaders continually cast their friends and family in leadership roles perpetuating the myth that church leadership is a certain 'type'. Oh and get chastised because you're not raising your kids correctly.

THIS ^^^^^

I had this epiphany the other day when I realized I haven't had a true friend in church for over 20 years, and even then it was the less active guy I fellow-shipped. The majority of my church experience has been as an outcast in almost every regard.

Then I have this inner dialogue:
Me: "Why do I still go to church if no one likes me there? Some people are even hostile in their dislike."
Church Me: "Well, obviously I go for my kids now. I want them to have the same experiences I did growing up...."
Me: "...of being an outcast and friendless for the majority of their church membership? Really? That's what you want for them?"
Church Me: "Touche, Me, touche...."

Yep, church friendships are just that, if you show up to church, we're friends, well kind of. Those "friendly" communications are based soley around church assignments or activities. If you don't show up, you never hear from them again. In order to be your friend again, they invite you out to church stuff. You must be in a church setting for the "friendship" to resurface.

My best friends now are non-church going, redneck, swearing, drinking SOBs. But they are genuine, honest and would give their right arm to help you.

If I had one gripe about the church, it would be the lack of authentic friendships you described. I'm not sure why it's so lacking there.... are we too busy judging each other? Is there something inherent in other members that we don't really want to associate with each other? Why is it easier to be friends with some stranger at work than the people you see at church? Why the barrier?

My thesis is that people crave two things, mainly: 1) authentic connection and 2) a means to contribute to the group in a meaningful way. When either of those are lacking, people lose interest in whatever else the organization has to offer. In short, it takes a strong testimony to keep going back when all the other reasons (or lack thereof) stack up against it.

Pardon my heretical self. Just the vocalization of some thoughts I've been ruminating on for a while.

I think it's because of all the control and formality. We're all so uptight about making sure we follow all the rules...written and unwritten....
White shirt, dark suit, skirt long enough, Brother this, Sister that, honestly it's so stifling. There is a lot of pretentiousness, a lot of conforming, a lot of fear.
There's so much we have to do to be seen as true followers of Christ. Or be seen to do. Is all of it actually necessary?
It's hard to relax, be creative or do almost anything...except that which we are expected to do.
It's stifling. And not particularly enjoyable in any way. Many of us are happy just to get through it.
That's why I believe we find it hard to pull people in.

[captainfearnot]

I even got mocked for "reading the scriptures too much" by a counselor in his presidency.

That is so telling.

[Jesef]

Sorry Jesef, it is one thing to point our problems and another to go to the extreme and make the Church seem like some sort of weird entity. Does the internet reduce conversions? Maybe. However, correlation is not necessarily causation. The same time people with the internet hypothesis point to is far easier to explain due to demographics - the root cause of most political and religious trends, but one few people recognize. The birthrate began to go down in the mid-1980s. Those kids never born would have been mission age in the early 2000s. I read analysis in those days that predicted the Church, rather than looking forward to exponential growth, was going to experience stagnation and decline. And this is what has happened. If the couples born in the late 50s and the 1960s had birthed the same number of children their parents had the Church would have exploded in growth at the same time the internet began to make a huge impact on society. And as for people saying that this does not account for convert reductions, well, yes it does for two reasons; one reason is less men of missionary age and two is the fact that most people who get interested in the Church and convert do so in high school or early college. Less young Mormons and less conversions.

It was not the internet that gutted our growth, it was the rubber and the birth control pill.

You're right about the LDS birthrate and it certainly would have affected the growth rate of missionaries in the field, but number of FTM's has grown anyway, while converts per missionary (that reflects real success of FTM effort) has decreased. Also we are falling behind by about 18-Million souls per year in the worldwide population growth (we baptize 230K per year, population grows by 18.25M per year):
LDS Birth Rate:

FTM's by year 1830-2010:

FTM's by year 1977-2018 (includes lowering mission ages):

Converts per FTM:

[Jesef]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Your observation has been proven statistically by several studies, in the U.S. at least. Losing 54% of Millennials (~1980-1999) & even higher rate of Generation-Z (~2000-present). This is epidemic. If this continues we will massive shrinkage and consolidation of Wards/Stakes, empty buildings - because it has a snowball effect: lower LDS activity rate = lower LDS birthrate = smaller FTM force = less converts (repeat cycle). This is why they are making drastic changes to try and stem the tide and make church more appealing for the young people. It's not enough - yet - keep changing. Listen & learn. The majority of these young folks don't want to work for a Corporation.

[thestock]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Adult leaders connecting with youth is all about trust. How can the Brethren build a relationship of trust with anyone, let alone youth, when they are chastizing and pulpit pounding and masturbation-shaming one minute and gas-lighting, lying, or playing ignorant on important issues like child abuse, church history, church truth claims, or church finances the next minute?

[LadyT]

Do you want to invite your neighbors to come and worship with you? Come, be ignored, have your kids ignored. Watch leaders continually cast their friends and family in leadership roles perpetuating the myth that church leadership is a certain 'type'. Oh and get chastised because you're not raising your kids correctly.

THIS ^^^^^

I had this epiphany the other day when I realized I haven't had a true friend in church for over 20 years, and even then it was the less active guy I fellow-shipped. The majority of my church experience has been as an outcast in almost every regard.

Then I have this inner dialogue:
Me: "Why do I still go to church if no one likes me there? Some people are even hostile in their dislike."
Church Me: "Well, obviously I go for my kids now. I want them to have the same experiences I did growing up...."
Me: "...of being an outcast and friendless for the majority of their church membership? Really? That's what you want for them?"
Church Me: "Touche, Me, touche...."

I understand ward members not being interested in making friends or being cliquish but why do they dislike you? Do you know any reason why others would feel dislike or hostility towards you? That really goes beyond the normal unless you've done something to cause others to react this way. I think it's normal to not make really close friends these days because of our modern lifestyles.

I tend to raise my hand and say exactly the wrong thing during EQ discussions. Here's an example:

During one lesson, the teacher was talking about how he and his dad treated a fella that came into the Burger King they were eating at and was asking for money. He said his dad took the man to the counter and said he could have any kind of food he wanted. The beggar refused, saying what he needed was money, not a hamburger. Whereupon his father told him, "Well, then, I can't help you." Reason? Well, if the guy didn't want food, then obviously he must be intending to use the money for booze or drugs, and he didn't want any part of that arrangement.

I raised my hand and brought up King Benjamin's statement on helping the needy, saying it was a test of our willingness to give, not their worthiness to receive. What they did with it was their business. Our job is merely to give when able. Then I followed that with a quote from one of the prophets (Brigham or Joseph, I can't remember which now) who said, "It is better to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition."

Turns out mine wasn't a very popular opinion, and when this same teacher became the EQP a month later it became standard practice to run me over any time I made any comments in class. I even got mocked for "reading the scriptures too much" by a counselor in his presidency. In course of time, I learned to shut up and just sit there reading my scriptures and writing in my journal.

My wife's stories of her treatment in RS are about 10x worse, and I have no idea what she did to deserve that. Even moving across the country to an entirely new area, she says she still has some lingering PTSD and is wondering which sister is going to persecute her in our new ward.

Zion indeed.

Side story: during our tenure in that ward, we also had a late term still birth that kinda rocked us pretty hard after we'd spent the previous five years trying to get pregnant. While grieving, my wife was fairly well ostracized by her peer group. We found out after moving that the common consensus was that we "were just looking for attention" and "should have just dealt with it like everyone else". In retrospect, we should have moved sooner.

I am so sorry for what happened with you and your family. My daughter was stillborn. It took us five years to have her as well. I will say my experience was very different from yours.

Many people struggle with dealing with a stillborn baby. They don't like hearing about it because it makes them have to think that life isn't always nice and easy. People don't talk about it and it makes more people feel alone. I am open about it and my daughter. I talk about her like I do my other kids. I see people get uneasy. I don't care if my life makes them uneasy. Life isn't easy.

Hopefully your new area is better.

[LadyT]

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

Trust me, I understand enabling and people who exploit others' charity for their personal gain.

My main point was don't be so hasty to judge. Throw a cloak of charity over your fellow man once in a while.

I don't give handouts or anything to people begging. My dad and godfather both asked me not too. They had worked in rough areas. They had their reasons, but refused to tell me. I promised them that I wouldn't and I won't break my promise. I learned a long time ago to not go against their few requests.

[iWriteStuff]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Your observation has been proven statistically by several studies, in the U.S. at least. Losing 54% of Millennials (~1980-1999) & even higher rate of Generation-Z (~2000-present). This is epidemic. If this continues we will massive shrinkage and consolidation of Wards/Stakes, empty buildings - because it has a snowball effect: lower LDS activity rate = lower LDS birthrate = smaller FTM force = less converts (repeat cycle). This is why they are making drastic changes to try and stem the tide and make church more appealing for the young people. It's not enough - yet - keep changing. Listen & learn. The majority of these young folks don't want to work for a Corporation.

These charts are amazing - no wonder they're freaking out.

How do they stop the bleeding?

[LadyT]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Many of the youth leave because they don't feel like they belong. They get judged and have hurtful things said to them (from older, do gooders, who have no idea what the kids are dealing with). They get forced to go and deal with leaders who may not want to be there. In my homeward, the youth got the worst leaders. Like the ones other adults didn't want around and that should never be teaching anyone. The youth should get the best. And stop judging them so much. It was hard to be a teen in the church when I was young. It's much harder now.

I am thankful for my parents! They helped me survive that ward and not lose my testimony.

[Jesef]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Adult leaders connecting with youth is all about trust. How can the Brethren build a relationship of trust with anyone, let alone youth, when they are chastizing and pulpit pounding and masturbation-shaming one minute and gas-lighting, lying, or playing ignorant on important issues like child abuse, church history, church truth claims, or church finances the next minute?

I agree & I am FOR: FULL TRANSPARENCY & FULLY INFORMED CONSENT. What they have done in the past and what they are still doing now is NOT that, not with history, not with doctrine, not with controversial issues, not with social issues, not with finances. Because of this type of Behavior/Information/Thought/Emotion (BITE) Control, they appear to be dishonest, backwards and cult-like to the young people and their peers (social group). They seem to think their image & status is pristine, but to Generation-Z and even the Millennials (young marrieds, & young kids stage now), their image is tarnished - they are losing credibility, and thus "authority".

[Jesef]

I’m well outside the Mormon West, so maybe other observations would be different. What I see is that we are losing youth in droves, and I mean well over 50% by the time they graduate high school. For whatever reason, the Church, at least where I’m at, isn’t connecting well with the youth.

There are lots of other reasons as well which have been mentioned by others. But if you are losing the youth you are losing the future.

Many of the youth leave because they don't feel like they belong. They get judged and have hurtful things said to them (from older, do gooders, who have no idea what the kids are dealing with). They get forced to go and deal with leaders who may not want to be there. In my homeward, the youth got the worst leaders. Like the ones other adults didn't want around and that should never be teaching anyone. The youth should get the best. And stop judging them so much. It was hard to be a teen in the church when I was young. It's much harder now.

I am thankful for my parents! They helped me survive that ward and not lose my testimony.

For a culture that talks a big game about being Christlike as our highest priority, we sure don't seem to be producing a majority of members who actually are Christlike (Pure LOVE of GOD) beings. I've met a ton of modern-day Pharisees though - they drive people away, like you said, particularly the young folks.

[Fiannan]

Adult leaders connecting with youth is all about trust. How can the Brethren build a relationship of trust with anyone, let alone youth, when they are chastizing and pulpit pounding and masturbation-shaming one minute and gas-lighting, lying, or playing ignorant on important issues like child abuse, church history, church truth claims, or church finances the next minute?

First of all, most members could not care less about the finances of the Church. The only time they might freak out is when a mall is built, or money given to another religion, or money to causes they disagree with, but overall most members look at big number spread sheets and try to find something else to spend time with.

In regards to history the critics try to paint everything as horrid, but when you study it you find out much (most) is not even bad in the least. And we have to remember when Napoleon said history is agreed upon fiction. Think of how the liberal academicians with references to present-day media will present Trump as worse than Hitler, and all his followers as stormtroopers. You think it is any different with LDS history?

Yes, there is too much emphasis on dumb things like masturbation and "modesty." Heck, the Church merely taught up until the post-WW2 period that the only time masturbation was a problem was if it deflected someone away from marriage, or substituted for sex after marriage. As for modesty, I have already noted that the way LDS culture treated the topic in the 50s- 80s was far different than today. Can you imagine some young women being whisked away in a time machine and winding up at a high school Laurels and young mens summer activity in 1978? They would have been shocked, not just at all the in-shape young people, but the short shorts and halter tops on girls and the short shorts guys wore then.

[Jesef]

Our Church membership's average level of spirituality & Christlike character (of the Active/participating members) is a solid piece of evidence of that we/LDS are NOT spiritually special/chosen/elite/superior. I've met so many people outside of our tradition who follow other religious or spiritual paths who seem to be much more mature, much more authentic, much more accepting & loving, less manipulative/controlling/self-righteous, i.e of much HIGHER quality of character/spirituality, etc., than us/LDS as a people. I think every Ward & Stake I've ever lived in has exhibited ridiculous/typical human drama & nonsense, tribalism. You'd think if we were the TRUE TRUE, the future EXALTED, we'd show up a little better than the rest of the world.

[Fiannan]

In reply to the graphs on the plunging LDS birthrate since the 1980s, yes, baptisms per missionary have decreased, but that is not just because the internet and the alleged "truth seeking" of investigators when looking at the Church, it is a far more secular society in the west. Just as the early Christians made most of their converts from practicing Jews (they had many commonalities) back in the 1970s or 1980s most people, even in infidel Europe, were basic Christians in the west. Now you have a different story and it is harder to convert people. However, even if conversions per missionary are much lower the fact is that if the birthrate had not plunged in the 1980s those masses of never-born Mormons would be out there converting people and the numbers would be growing. Ans like I said earlier, most converts are from member-referrals and those usually come from young people. Less young LDS people, less referrals.

[Mindfields]

The younger generations see the church for what it is. A money making enterprise that care's much more for the bottom line then it does it's members. The fruit that the church bares is mostly rotten. The church is dishonest about it's history and withholds material facts to both members and prospective members. As long as the brethren continue on the course they're on it will continue to hemorrhage members.

“And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.” (2nd Nephi 26:20-21)

“He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2nd Nephi 26:29)

"And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor." (2 Nephi 26:20)

"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing." (Mormon 8:35)

"And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted." (verses 36-37)

"O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?" (verse 38)

The above scriptures from the Book of Mormon describe the latter-day church to a tee! Nephi and Moroni were warning us, those who would actually read the book. Read and study it for what it actually says not what the church or some commentator's says it says.

When your religion tells you that you are God's chosen people and have "all truth" you can know for a certainty that you're aren't and don't.


2nd Nephi 26: 20-29

“Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church”

Man made Pharisaical add on's not needed.

[Fiannan]

Our Church membership's average level of spirituality & Christlike character (of the Active/participating members) is a solid piece of evidence of that we/LDS are NOT spiritually special/chosen/elite/superior. I've met so many people outside of our tradition who follow other religious or spiritual paths who seem to be much more mature, much more authentic, much more accepting & loving, less manipulative/controlling/self-righteous, i.e of much HIGHER quality of character/spirituality, etc., than us/LDS as a people. I think every Ward & Stake I've ever lived in has exhibited ridiculous/typical human drama & nonsense, tribalism. You'd think if we were the TRUE TRUE, the future EXALTED, we'd show up a little better than the rest of the world.

Weird, I wonder if things were better after all during the days of polygamy.

[Jesef]

Adult leaders connecting with youth is all about trust. How can the Brethren build a relationship of trust with anyone, let alone youth, when they are chastizing and pulpit pounding and masturbation-shaming one minute and gas-lighting, lying, or playing ignorant on important issues like child abuse, church history, church truth claims, or church finances the next minute?

First of all, most members could not care less about the finances of the Church. The only time they might freak out is when a mall is built, or money given to another religion, or money to causes they disagree with, but overall most members look at big number spread sheets and try to find something else to spend time with.

In regards to history the critics try to paint everything as horrid, but when you study it you find out much (most) is not even bad in the least. And we have to remember when Napoleon said history is agreed upon fiction. Think of how the liberal academicians with references to present-day media will present Trump as worse than Hitler, and all his followers as stormtroopers. You think it is any different with LDS history?

Yes, there is too much emphasis on dumb things like masturbation and "modesty." Heck, the Church merely taught up until the post-WW2 period that the only time masturbation was a problem was if it deflected someone away from marriage, or substituted for sex after marriage. As for modesty, I have already noted that the way LDS culture treated the topic in the 50s- 80s was far different than today. Can you imagine some young women being whisked away in a time machine and winding up at a high school Laurels and young mens summer activity in 1978? They would have been shocked, not just at all the in-shape young people, but the short shorts and halter tops on girls and the short shorts guys wore then.

This explanation wouldn't fly with young people, not even a little - so if you want to achieve results, you can't use the excuses that work for you, but what is persuasive to others. Lots of people today & young people in particular are repelled by the Church's handling & hiding of its wealth (~$500Billion in assets). They don't want to work for or be a member of a Corporation. And the hiding & misrepresentation of history DOES matter to them - for example, the new Saints book/series is an apologetic amalgamation of information which ignores & hides important discrepancies, which when exposed - like the significant differences between the 1832 & 1842 (PoGP) versions of the First Vision - when young people learn these things (and they are true/accurate), they see confirmation biased spin - they feel manipulated & deceived, which destroys trust.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... mer-1832/1

I'm not going to argue with reality. It is what it is - we get to deal with it. This type of obfuscation & spin won't fix the problem because this isn't how the young people see things.

[David13]

I don't agree with the idea that the 'corporation' aspect turns the youth off. Most of them have no clue about that stuff.
dc

[Believing Joseph]

Heck, the Church merely taught up until the post-WW2 period that the only time masturbation was a problem was if it deflected someone away from marriage, or substituted for sex after marriage.

Do you have a source for this?

[David13]

Our Church membership's average level of spirituality & Christlike character (of the Active/participating members) is a solid piece of evidence of that we/LDS are NOT spiritually special/chosen/elite/superior. I've met so many people outside of our tradition who follow other religious or spiritual paths who seem to be much more mature, much more authentic, much more accepting & loving, less manipulative/controlling/self-righteous, i.e of much HIGHER quality of character/spirituality, etc., than us/LDS as a people. I think every Ward & Stake I've ever lived in has exhibited ridiculous/typical human drama & nonsense, tribalism. You'd think if we were the TRUE TRUE, the future EXALTED, we'd show up a little better than the rest of the world.

There are very spiritual people to be found anywhere and everywhere. Some in the church, some in other churches and some in none. But then also personality and outlook on life, and health and probably a great number of other factors are involved to make them seem spiritual, when in reality they might not be.

And there are plenty of 'average Joes' in the church. not too many in my Los Angeles area ward, but more so in Utah.
dc