Poll: #1 Reason Church Growth Stagnant or in Decline

[MMbelieve]

If I had one gripe about the church, it would be the lack of authentic friendships you described. I'm not sure why it's so lacking there.... are we too busy judging each other? Is there something inherent in other members that we don't really want to associate with each other? Why is it easier to be friends with some stranger at work than the people you see at church? Why the barrier?

I have a theory. When I am with non-members I can pretty much set my own boundaries as to jokes, topics to discuss, etc. No, I do not swear, drink, tell off-color jokes, but if I did I would not go home and wonder what people might now think of me. On the other hand with LDS friends and associates, there have been many times I have brought up something that was not offensive in the least, but I got the, "You sure we can talk about that?" look. So maybe we feel a certain paranoia about speaking to non-members about things we think or feel in the same way you might watch yourself if you live in North Korea, of Cuba or Scandinavia. That means you will feel a certain level of discomfort around many LDS people and that can translate into negativity towards them.

I have a level of discomfort for sure and at the same time a sense of understanding I don’t share with non-members. I prefer non-members though because they feel like real people, lol. I have never really felt comfortable or fully accepted since being an adult. I’m not Utah culture though, far from it.

[MMbelieve]

If I had one gripe about the church, it would be the lack of authentic friendships you described. I'm not sure why it's so lacking there.... are we too busy judging each other? Is there something inherent in other members that we don't really want to associate with each other? Why is it easier to be friends with some stranger at work than the people you see at church? Why the barrier?

I have a theory. When I am with non-members I can pretty much set my own boundaries as to jokes, topics to discuss, etc. No, I do not swear, drink, tell off-color jokes, but if I did I would not go home and wonder what people might now think of me. On the other hand with LDS friends and associates, there have been many times I have brought up something that was not offensive in the least, but I got the, "You sure we can talk about that?" look. So maybe we feel a certain paranoia about speaking to non-members about things we think or feel in the same way you might watch yourself if you live in North Korea, of Cuba or Scandinavia. That means you will feel a certain level of discomfort around many LDS people and that can translate into negativity towards them.

Right, so we all pretend to be someone we're not when we're around other members, then go home and wonder why "No one knows the real me, nor do I have an authentic connection with these other members who, even after years of pretending, still aren't close friends."

Relationships built upon artificially constructed and socially reinforced false projections of self... It's hard to feel at home when you're always feeling either fake or judged. The wise man built his house upon a _____.

And then add in all the weight of what Jesef just mentioned. It's a wonder the church isn't shrinking.

Makes me wonder what really caused this problem in the first place or laid the foundation for it to be this way. We know the early saints were brought to being a close group through practices and persecutions. Did trying to be so tight nit backfire and make us weird?

[Fiannan]

Something to consider though, the only place you will be segregated by locality and age is public school. However, we are segregated from other Mormons by local geography as well. So imagine back in school where there were a few kids you could related to, and a lot of others who just had similar addresses. Church can be the same way. We may live in the same town as our relatives, or member best friends, but we cannot interact with them at the Church functions level unless they, or we, move into their wards. And that is no guarantee of permanence as ward boundaries can change.

Then again I could imagine if people got to choose their wards. In Utah you might have a town with all the local professors, another with police, another MBB and another with a survivalist network. So what can you do?

[MMbelieve]

If I had one gripe about the church, it would be the lack of authentic friendships you described. I'm not sure why it's so lacking there.... are we too busy judging each other? Is there something inherent in other members that we don't really want to associate with each other? Why is it easier to be friends with some stranger at work than the people you see at church? Why the barrier?

I have a theory. When I am with non-members I can pretty much set my own boundaries as to jokes, topics to discuss, etc. No, I do not swear, drink, tell off-color jokes, but if I did I would not go home and wonder what people might now think of me. On the other hand with LDS friends and associates, there have been many times I have brought up something that was not offensive in the least, but I got the, "You sure we can talk about that?" look. So maybe we feel a certain paranoia about speaking to non-members about things we think or feel in the same way you might watch yourself if you live in North Korea, of Cuba or Scandinavia. That means you will feel a certain level of discomfort around many LDS people and that can translate into negativity towards them.

Funny story, my home teacher came by one evening (nice guy) but he brought his wife over this time. We were all standing in the dining room chatting and I mentioned how relief society activities were a joke and how we needed to have real activities rather than crafting useless items that get tossed a year down the road. Home teacher was kind as he looked at his wife and informed us that she was the brand new relief society president, lol. One second of oh, crap in my head then an oh, well because what a I said was true. Then I looked point blank at her and said, it’s true.
Needless to say, that was the last time our home teacher came to our home, lol.

[MMbelieve]

Something to consider though, the only place you will be segregated by locality and age is public school. However, we are segregated from other Mormons by local geography as well. So imagine back in school where there were a few kids you could related to, and a lot of others who just had similar addresses. Church can be the same way. We may live in the same town as our relatives, or member best friends, but we cannot interact with them at the Church functions level unless they, or we, move into their wards. And that is no guarantee of permanence as ward boundaries can change.

Then again I could imagine if people got to choose their wards. In Utah you might have a town with all the local professors, another with police, another MBB and another with a survivalist network. So what can you do?

In my opinion, Utah has such a dense population in areas that choosing your ward could be helpful. Why do we even have standards the same for spread out communities and dense communities? We should be more flexible, it could return good results. Too many rules makes people uptight and unhappy. I say give us more freedom to choose and a little less control (oversight) from leaders.

[EmmaLee]

My thoughts as to the main reason why the Church is shrinking is basically because we don't have much to offer. How is our Church really, in every day life, any different than any other Christian, Bible-believing church? Some may say, "Well, we have the priesthood." Okay, I believe that is true - but how does that translate into positives in every day life? What are the fruits of our Church having the priesthood? I hear of far more miracles being performed in other churches (and outside of churches) - no true miracles in ours that I'm aware of in my lifetime. We have temples. Okay, how many endowments, sealings, baptisms, etc. performed in the temples are honestly ratified by the Holy Ghost? Because if these ordinances are not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, they are dead works and count for exactly nothing.

My non-LDS friends are much nicer, more 'real', more Christian than the majority of the LDS people that I know. They legit seem to have the power of God and his spirit more than we (as a whole) do. So again, why would anyone join the LDS Church? What do we have to offer? I'm not trying to be snarky when I ask this. Anyway, that is why I think the Church isn't growing - because we have nothing substantially to offer anymore besides watery milk, dead works, 'miracles' that aren't miracles, and cleaning other people's pee off of toilets several times a year. Unless or until the Church returns to the dynamic, Spirit-filled, miracle-abounding, revelatory, Christ-led institution it was during Joseph's day, it will continue to shrink and stagnate, IMO.

Now some truly righteous person will probably say, "Why do you stay then? Just leave and go join one of those other churches!" I stay because God has told me to stay - it's really as simple as that. I do not believe he has given up yet, and neither have I. But I'm a life-long member whose roots go back to close friends of Joseph's before he even organized the Church in 1830 - so it's in my DNA. If I were a non-member out there today, looking at the Church of today (its members and its leaders - how they treat others, their genuineness, their fruits, their hypocrisy, etc.), I wouldn't give the Church as it is now a second glance.

As far as what those on the outside think of our Church, in talking with my non-member friends and neighbors about it over the years, the #1 turn-off to them of our Church is its history and association with polygamy. It is by far, the #1 reason they have no interest in our Church - much more so than any other issue (blacks and the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, tithing, etc. are all way down on the list).

As to why people who are already members are leaving, I agree with what others have said - the internet, learning things they can't make sense of, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, judgmental/condemning/fake members and leaders, etc. etc. seem to be the main reasons, at least of the people I know who have left.

[largerthanlife]

Yes polygamy has done more to destroy the church than any other thing Satan could have done. Many young men were not able to marry young women because the old men had already taken them. Many more children would have been born in the church with young men as fathers.

Polygamy also defeats most missionary work right from the start. Who would want to join a polygamous cult? Why do the scriptures say one wife only?

We keep hearing about the rolling stone vision with the church filling the earth. Leaders keep saying the church is true because of the huge growth. What will they say when the church starts shrinking? Negative growth is coming real soon.

[oneClimbs]

I don't think we are being successful in helping people to become born of God. What is frustrating is that we have all of the pieces of the puzzle so to speak, and much more! I think we are a bit hasty in pushing people along a conveyor belt instead of really inquiring and working with them on their knowledge of God.

It's much easier to move people through a "program" but I think we are moving away from this. I feel like God has poured out a huge ton of blessings for us but many don't even recognize the hand that put those blessings in their lap. We have been given peace, privileges beyond any generation in history and what do we do with our time? We can spend so much time sinking deep into the mysteries of God, meditating upon his words, and serving his children in powerful ways, but what do we really do with our time?

Conversion must happen at home, the church is right to shift the focus there and I'm really grateful that we are putting this message out there now. We need to fortify our homes and help our children become converted to the Lord. When they know that he is there and guiding their lives and approves of their path, then they will be unstoppable.

If this never happens, nothing else matters. The temple and all the covenants and ordinances there are dross to anyone who has not been born of God.

[Aprhys]

The ward used to be family. I recall as a kid going on ward campouts. We had a ward activity every month during the summertime. Elders quorum softball and basketball. Roadshows. Now, church is lame. Yeah, I understand you get out of it what you put into it. I had a talk on my mission with an investigator who talked about how people want real gospel. Something that will challenge you. Now it seems that anything goes. We accept everything for fear of offending. We have lost that "old time religion." My three oldest have left the church. It's not as if they had any falling out with doctrine. The church just didn't have anything to really offer them, anything to keep their interest. Anything different than their daily routine. My son who served a mission was turned off by the church building malls etc. Personally, I feel that we have seen the pinnacle of the church at least in North America. Growth will stagnate. Convert baptisms will be nearly nothing. By appeasing everyone you lose your core membership.

[Fiannan]

Polygamy also defeats most missionary work right from the start. Who would want to join a polygamous cult?

What the Romans used to say about Judaism and later Christianity.

[Aprhys]

I used to enjoy Star Wars movies. One of the older ones had a quote when Princess Leia told the imperial officer something to the effect of that the more you tighten your grip, the more of your star systems will slip away.

I thought about this as I was reading a story about a female Mormon return missionary who is now a porn star. At least according to the story she began to question the Church after she could not participate in her sister's wedding as a bridesmaid as the dresses were considered "immodest."

I saw a graph listing how much the term "modesty" appeared in official LDS publications. It was practically off-radar until the late 1990s and then skyrocketed in the 2000s. When I joined the Church there were outdoor activities for the youth and the young women all wore those late 70s shorts that were cut right up to the waist. Same Church, different priorities I guess. I have noticed that in our ward there are youth who are super "modest" and there are those who wear what they want. I bet the same thing will be the reality as when my sons were teenagers - the modest gals are mostly no longer in Church anymore and the ones who wore what they wanted are married with kids and active. Weird how that goes.

Have you ever seen the photo going around of priesthood session 1970 vs. today? In the 70s there was a multitude of colors being worn. Everyone had a tie one but the shirts were red, blue, yellow etc. And heaven forbid there were even some beards. Now-a-days the elder who wears the blue shirt must be losing his testimony.

[Vision]

It was not the internet that gutted our growth, it was the rubber and the birth control pill.

Hall of Fame sentence.

[jmack]

Do you want to invite your neighbors to come and worship with you? Come, be ignored, have your kids ignored. Watch leaders continually cast their friends and family in leadership roles perpetuating the myth that church leadership is a certain 'type'. Oh and get chastised because you're not raising your kids correctly.

THIS ^^^^^

I had this epiphany the other day when I realized I haven't had a true friend in church for over 20 years, and even then it was the less active guy I fellow-shipped. The majority of my church experience has been as an outcast in almost every regard.

Then I have this inner dialogue:
Me: "Why do I still go to church if no one likes me there? Some people are even hostile in their dislike."
Church Me: "Well, obviously I go for my kids now. I want them to have the same experiences I did growing up...."
Me: "...of being an outcast and friendless for the majority of their church membership? Really? That's what you want for them?"
Church Me: "Touche, Me, touche...."

I understand ward members not being interested in making friends or being cliquish but why do they dislike you? Do you know any reason why others would feel dislike or hostility towards you? That really goes beyond the normal unless you've done something to cause others to react this way. I think it's normal to not make really close friends these days because of our modern lifestyles.

[jmack]

I think the church is growing better than other churches and better than expected considering the world we live in. I think the church is growing in other countries and among non whites. I think this isn't counted by some members in the US who ignore it. To me we are past the time of the Gentiles and so the white nations slowing in growth, the others are hearing and accepting the gospel and that's where the spiritual growth is too. I also think that some who've always been commited and active can become disillusioned when they get older and see they are no longer being used for callings etc, they start to feel resentful and isolated. And that only adds to their not being used for the assignments they would like. Young US couples are maybe not as commited to following counsel to have more than 2 children and live on 1 income, I see fewer that do differently.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

Sorry Jesef, it is one thing to point our problems and another to go to the extreme and make the Church seem like some sort of weird entity. Does the internet reduce conversions? Maybe. However, correlation is not necessarily causation. The same time people with the internet hypothesis point to is far easier to explain due to demographics - the root cause of most political and religious trends, but one few people recognize. The birthrate began to go down in the mid-1980s. Those kids never born would have been mission age in the early 2000s. I read analysis in those days that predicted the Church, rather than looking forward to exponential growth, was going to experience stagnation and decline. And this is what has happened. If the couples born in the late 50s and the 1960s had birthed the same number of children their parents had the Church would have exploded in growth at the same time the internet began to make a huge impact on society. And as for people saying that this does not account for convert reductions, well, yes it does for two reasons; one reason is less men of missionary age and two is the fact that most people who get interested in the Church and convert do so in high school or early college. Less young Mormons and less conversions.

It was not the internet that gutted our growth, it was the rubber and the birth control pill.

This is true. It has become all but the death-knell of western society. Our Church is not the only institution that has been affected by this. Many churches, clubs and institution dwindle because their is little to no "life" found within their walls, just an aging population. I find images (below) like this odd, especially coming from countries that already have birth control and a fertility rate below "replacement" levels.

[iWriteStuff]

Do you want to invite your neighbors to come and worship with you? Come, be ignored, have your kids ignored. Watch leaders continually cast their friends and family in leadership roles perpetuating the myth that church leadership is a certain 'type'. Oh and get chastised because you're not raising your kids correctly.

THIS ^^^^^

I had this epiphany the other day when I realized I haven't had a true friend in church for over 20 years, and even then it was the less active guy I fellow-shipped. The majority of my church experience has been as an outcast in almost every regard.

Then I have this inner dialogue:
Me: "Why do I still go to church if no one likes me there? Some people are even hostile in their dislike."
Church Me: "Well, obviously I go for my kids now. I want them to have the same experiences I did growing up...."
Me: "...of being an outcast and friendless for the majority of their church membership? Really? That's what you want for them?"
Church Me: "Touche, Me, touche...."

I understand ward members not being interested in making friends or being cliquish but why do they dislike you? Do you know any reason why others would feel dislike or hostility towards you? That really goes beyond the normal unless you've done something to cause others to react this way. I think it's normal to not make really close friends these days because of our modern lifestyles.

I tend to raise my hand and say exactly the wrong thing during EQ discussions. Here's an example:

During one lesson, the teacher was talking about how he and his dad treated a fella that came into the Burger King they were eating at and was asking for money. He said his dad took the man to the counter and said he could have any kind of food he wanted. The beggar refused, saying what he needed was money, not a hamburger. Whereupon his father told him, "Well, then, I can't help you." Reason? Well, if the guy didn't want food, then obviously he must be intending to use the money for booze or drugs, and he didn't want any part of that arrangement.

I raised my hand and brought up King Benjamin's statement on helping the needy, saying it was a test of our willingness to give, not their worthiness to receive. What they did with it was their business. Our job is merely to give when able. Then I followed that with a quote from one of the prophets (Brigham or Joseph, I can't remember which now) who said, "It is better to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition."

Turns out mine wasn't a very popular opinion, and when this same teacher became the EQP a month later it became standard practice to run me over any time I made any comments in class. I even got mocked for "reading the scriptures too much" by a counselor in his presidency. In course of time, I learned to shut up and just sit there reading my scriptures and writing in my journal.

My wife's stories of her treatment in RS are about 10x worse, and I have no idea what she did to deserve that. Even moving across the country to an entirely new area, she says she still has some lingering PTSD and is wondering which sister is going to persecute her in our new ward.

Zion indeed.

Side story: during our tenure in that ward, we also had a late term still birth that kinda rocked us pretty hard after we'd spent the previous five years trying to get pregnant. While grieving, my wife was fairly well ostracized by her peer group. We found out after moving that the common consensus was that we "were just looking for attention" and "should have just dealt with it like everyone else". In retrospect, we should have moved sooner.

[David13]

Yes polygamy has done more to destroy the church than any other thing Satan could have done. Many young men were not able to marry young women because the old men had already taken them. Many more children would have been born in the church with young men as fathers.

Polygamy also defeats most missionary work right from the start. Who would want to join a polygamous cult? Why do the scriptures say one wife only?

We keep hearing about the rolling stone vision with the church filling the earth. Leaders keep saying the church is true because of the huge growth. What will they say when the church starts shrinking? Negative growth is coming real soon.

I have known of the church all my life. I have been a member 5 years.

I never had any animadversions toward polygamy. I never thought for a moment that it might be for me. But it just never bothered me that it would be for others.

Tell me where in scriptures it says one wife only.

Enlighten me about that.
dc

[Fiannan]

Sorry Jesef, it is one thing to point our problems and another to go to the extreme and make the Church seem like some sort of weird entity. Does the internet reduce conversions? Maybe. However, correlation is not necessarily causation. The same time people with the internet hypothesis point to is far easier to explain due to demographics - the root cause of most political and religious trends, but one few people recognize. The birthrate began to go down in the mid-1980s. Those kids never born would have been mission age in the early 2000s. I read analysis in those days that predicted the Church, rather than looking forward to exponential growth, was going to experience stagnation and decline. And this is what has happened. If the couples born in the late 50s and the 1960s had birthed the same number of children their parents had the Church would have exploded in growth at the same time the internet began to make a huge impact on society. And as for people saying that this does not account for convert reductions, well, yes it does for two reasons; one reason is less men of missionary age and two is the fact that most people who get interested in the Church and convert do so in high school or early college. Less young Mormons and less conversions.

It was not the internet that gutted our growth, it was the rubber and the birth control pill.

This is true. It has become all but the death-knell of western society. Our Church is not the only institution that has been affected by this. Many churches, clubs and institution dwindle because their is little to no "life" found within their walls, just an aging population. I find images (below) like this odd, especially coming from countries that already have birth control and a fertility rate below "replacement" levels.

Women are the gatekeepers of morality and reproduction in a society. Notice western society is dying. What does that tell you?

[iWriteStuff]

Sorry Jesef, it is one thing to point our problems and another to go to the extreme and make the Church seem like some sort of weird entity. Does the internet reduce conversions? Maybe. However, correlation is not necessarily causation. The same time people with the internet hypothesis point to is far easier to explain due to demographics - the root cause of most political and religious trends, but one few people recognize. The birthrate began to go down in the mid-1980s. Those kids never born would have been mission age in the early 2000s. I read analysis in those days that predicted the Church, rather than looking forward to exponential growth, was going to experience stagnation and decline. And this is what has happened. If the couples born in the late 50s and the 1960s had birthed the same number of children their parents had the Church would have exploded in growth at the same time the internet began to make a huge impact on society. And as for people saying that this does not account for convert reductions, well, yes it does for two reasons; one reason is less men of missionary age and two is the fact that most people who get interested in the Church and convert do so in high school or early college. Less young Mormons and less conversions.

It was not the internet that gutted our growth, it was the rubber and the birth control pill.

This is true. It has become all but the death-knell of western society. Our Church is not the only institution that has been affected by this. Many churches, clubs and institution dwindle because their is little to no "life" found within their walls, just an aging population. I find images (below) like this odd, especially coming from countries that already have birth control and a fertility rate below "replacement" levels.

Women are the gatekeepers of morality and reproduction in a society. Notice western society is dying. What does that tell you?

To check your premises?

[Lexew1899]

Younger members have no testimony. They are buying in to the indoctrination they are receiving in public schools. They don't believe in the church.

[David13]

Do you want to invite your neighbors to come and worship with you? Come, be ignored, have your kids ignored. Watch leaders continually cast their friends and family in leadership roles perpetuating the myth that church leadership is a certain 'type'. Oh and get chastised because you're not raising your kids correctly.

THIS ^^^^^

I had this epiphany the other day when I realized I haven't had a true friend in church for over 20 years, and even then it was the less active guy I fellow-shipped. The majority of my church experience has been as an outcast in almost every regard.

Then I have this inner dialogue:
Me: "Why do I still go to church if no one likes me there? Some people are even hostile in their dislike."
Church Me: "Well, obviously I go for my kids now. I want them to have the same experiences I did growing up...."
Me: "...of being an outcast and friendless for the majority of their church membership? Really? That's what you want for them?"
Church Me: "Touche, Me, touche...."

I understand ward members not being interested in making friends or being cliquish but why do they dislike you? Do you know any reason why others would feel dislike or hostility towards you? That really goes beyond the normal unless you've done something to cause others to react this way. I think it's normal to not make really close friends these days because of our modern lifestyles.

I tend to raise my hand and say exactly the wrong thing during EQ discussions. Here's an example:

During one lesson, the teacher was talking about how he and his dad treated a fella that came into the Burger King they were eating at and was asking for money. He said his dad took the man to the counter and said he could have any kind of food he wanted. The beggar refused, saying what he needed was money, not a hamburger. Whereupon his father told him, "Well, then, I can't help you." Reason? Well, if the guy didn't want food, then obviously he must be intending to use the money for booze or drugs, and he didn't want any part of that arrangement.

I raised my hand and brought up King Benjamin's statement on helping the needy, saying it was a test of our willingness to give, not their worthiness to receive. What they did with it was their business. Our job is merely to give when able. Then I followed that with a quote from one of the prophets (Brigham or Joseph, I can't remember which now) who said, "It is better to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition."

Turns out mine wasn't a very popular opinion, and when this same teacher became the EQP a month later it became standard practice to run me over any time I made any comments in class. I even got mocked for "reading the scriptures too much" by a counselor in his presidency. In course of time, I learned to shut up and just sit there reading my scriptures and writing in my journal.

My wife's stories of her treatment in RS are about 10x worse, and I have no idea what she did to deserve that. Even moving across the country to an entirely new area, she says she still has some lingering PTSD and is wondering which sister is going to persecute her in our new ward.

Zion indeed.

Side story: during our tenure in that ward, we also had a late term still birth that kinda rocked us pretty hard after we'd spent the previous five years trying to get pregnant. While grieving, my wife was fairly well ostracized by her peer group. We found out after moving that the common consensus was that we "were just looking for attention" and "should have just dealt with it like everyone else". In retrospect, we should have moved sooner.

I think the mainstream in my two wards, Los Angeles area and Utah was that you are right.

But why I disagree with your position is that you run a risk not understood and calculated in the equation. That is ... enabling. Giving them money that they might use for drugs might kill them. Give them enough money and they will od and kill themselves. Thus, you have not helped them, you have hurt them.

Were I am in Utah we seldom see those beggars. Too rural. However in Los Angeles I knew a JW lady, a marvelous and extremely spiritual lady who, suffering the vast armies of beggars in Los Angeles, described that she found, on nearly a daily basis that, like your friend in Burger King, she could not buy any of them food. They only wanted money and she refused to "help" them get their drugs.

What I would do with a lot of them was counsel them about their 'thing'. Many of them would freely admit the were looking for a drink or drugs and that they would like to quit or get off it. Then I could discuss with them what to do when they were "ready". In other words help they by planting seeds for their redemption, and reinforcing their inclination to do so, rather than enabling them without a word.

Of course there were a few who became very indignant or even hostile about it, but never denied that thee was something there.

Now, Jesus said "when I was hungry, you fed me, when I was without clothes you clothed me ..." And the said "master, when ..." And he said as you have done it unto the least of mine ..."

Did he also say you didn't buy me drugs, alcohol, or ... cigarettes? Or an Iphone? Etc?

So there are some fine lines there to follow a little further. Let's not be shallow.

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

[Separatist]

Then I followed that with a quote from one of the prophets (Brigham or Joseph, I can't remember which now) who said, "It is better to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition."

Can you source this? I've never been able to. Nibley says Joseph said it, but he never sourced it either.

[iWriteStuff]

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

Trust me, I understand enabling and people who exploit others' charity for their personal gain.

My main point was don't be so hasty to judge. Throw a cloak of charity over your fellow man once in a while.

[iWriteStuff]

Then I followed that with a quote from one of the prophets (Brigham or Joseph, I can't remember which now) who said, "It is better to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition."

Can you source this? I've never been able to. Nibley says Joseph said it, but he never sourced it either.

That's where I got it, too. The irony is I found almost those exact words about feeding impostors etc in Brigham's discourses. So I'm not sure who the original source is - Brigham or Brigham quoting Joseph.

[David13]

Around here we seldom see a beggar, unless we make the long trip to the big city.
dc

Trust me, I understand enabling and people who exploit others' charity for their personal gain.

My main point was don't be so hasty to judge. Throw a cloak of charity over your fellow man once in a while.

And my point is that in Los Angeles you can't. There are just too many of them, vast armies, legions of street zombies. So you need to be more selective in actually trying to find one that you can feed.
dc