President Nelson visits New Zealand

[Lizzy60]

My ideas on this whole picture-covering controversy are mixed. On the one hand, there is no such thing as a portrait of Christ - the depictions of Him are just guesses, and by assigning divine status to a particular image, we worship a man-made god.

On the other hand, once a group of Christians have decided that a certain picture represents Jesus, I think it is wrong for them to cover it to appease those not of their faith.

Pictures or no pictures, I think it's appalling that the Muslims were allowed to formally pray in an LDS building.

In England, the Muslims prayed in a separate non-Christian building, and just the dinner was hosted in the Church, for both Muslims and Christians.

[setyourselffree]

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/uk-c ... an-prayers

.

From the article Elizabeth posted:

"Quite the opposite. No amount of damage control can fix this one. In offering to “hide crosses”, the vicar demonstrated an appalling lack of integrity–most troubling as a church leader. He was inconsiderate of and insulting to congregants, ignorant of Islamic supremacist incursion into the UK, irreverent as a church leader and in complete violation of Canon law…."

I wish all Stake Presidents in Salt Lake had this much integrity.
Cover up pictures of Christ. Host Ramadan services. Sponsor LGBTQ pro-gay-marriage firesides.

This is not the Church of my ancestors, nor my youth.

You're right it is better.

[EmmaLee]

Out of respect to local cultures I would hope that when LDS women visit Rio they make sure to wear the same bathing suits as the locals do.

Meaning, going around topless, or completely naked. Does EVERY topic for you devolve into sex and nudity?

Are you serious? There is only one nude beach in Rio and it was only allowed in 2015. And how do bikinis get associated with sex and nudity??? You do realize that LDS youth activities involving swimming allow females to wear them I hope.

Point - missed. Ah well....

[Lizzy60]

Out of respect to local cultures I would hope that when LDS women visit Rio they make sure to wear the same bathing suits as the locals do.

Meaning, going around topless, or completely naked. Does EVERY topic for you devolve into sex and nudity?

Are you serious? There is only one nude beach in Rio and it was only allowed in 2015. And how do bikinis get associated with sex and nudity??? You do realize that LDS youth activities involving swimming allow females to wear them I hope.

The wards and stakes I've lived in for my entire life have NEVER allowed bikinis, or any swimsuit showing any part of the stomach, or with high-cut legs, at any church water activity. Even girls' camp.

[Lizzy60]

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/uk-c ... an-prayers

.

From the article Elizabeth posted:

"Quite the opposite. No amount of damage control can fix this one. In offering to “hide crosses”, the vicar demonstrated an appalling lack of integrity–most troubling as a church leader. He was inconsiderate of and insulting to congregants, ignorant of Islamic supremacist incursion into the UK, irreverent as a church leader and in complete violation of Canon law…."

I wish all Stake Presidents in Salt Lake had this much integrity.
Cover up pictures of Christ. Host Ramadan services. Sponsor LGBTQ pro-gay-marriage firesides.

This is not the Church of my ancestors, nor my youth.

You're right it is better.

If Babylon is better than Zion, you are correct.

[EmmaLee]

A vicar in England planned to cover a statue of Christ, and cover up crosses, as well as provide segregated rooms for Islamic prayer, for a joint celebration of Ramadan, until churchgoers and the diocese intervened.

"They realise that the vicar made a silly mistake, but I'm glad it happened because it raises in the public eye some important issues which people need to work through," he said. "Islam and Christianity are not Abrahamic cousins in Middle Eastern religion. They're actually antithetic to each other."

It's understood the event will go ahead, but prayers will be said elsewhere.

In a statement to Premier, a spokesperson for the Diocese of Durham said: "While it is vital to build good interfaith relations, it is clear that an act of worship from a non-Christian faith tradition is not permitted within a consecrated Church of England building."

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Durh ... im-prayers

It's good to know that at least some Christians take their faith and covenants with God seriously. Sincere kudos to the Church of England.

Question: When we dedicate our ward and stake buildings, are they also consecrated?

Not sure. I assumed dedicating and consecrating (in this context) were similar? As in, LDS dedicate buildings, other Christian faiths consecrate theirs - two different words meaning the same thing?

[Fiannan]

Point - missed. Ah well....

No, you missed the point. If we are willing to cover up images of Jesus in our meetinghouses out of "respect" for cultural differences then should this extend to all cultures? Maybe we offend people if we dress too conservatively.

Point is, it is a place of worship. Think about it, lets say in 15 years there is a wedding in the chapel. The groom's husband-to-be is not a member and he wants anything that conveys a religious context to be covered for the ceremony. Should we do that as well?

[shadow]

Welcome to the LDSFF where no middle ground is ever to tolerated.

What middle ground to you think should be tolerated here? (Btw I frequently take the middle ground on other topics).

You think we should cover paintings of Jesus for Muslims to pray to another God? You think we should give them money to build up their churches?

Do you not think some topics don’t deserve middle ground?

I think we should act like Christians and love our neighbors. We should do unto others as we'd have them do unto us. We should act like we've been born again, if we truly have actually been born again.
As Joseph said-
"While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

“If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too" -Joseph

[EmmaLee]

Point - missed. Ah well....

No, you missed the point. If we are willing to cover up images of Jesus in our meetinghouses out of "respect" for cultural differences then should this extend to all cultures? Maybe we offend people if we dress too conservatively.

Point is, it is a place of worship. Think about it, lets say in 15 years there is a wedding in the chapel. The groom's husband-to-be is not a member and he wants anything that conveys a religious context to be covered for the ceremony. Should we do that as well?

No offense, Fiannan, but you apparently live in an entirely different world than the rest of us. If the LDS Church ever allows same-sex weddings in our chapels (as you infer in your comment above), I will no longer be a member of the LDS Church, and so I will not care at that point what they do in their buildings.

But to answer your questions, No, and No.

[Zathura]

I have read Jihad Watch, and some news of Islamic violence which has received media coverage.
That is more than enough.

Do not study the Quran deeply. Best to rely on websites that cherry pick verses out of context to make their point, or weave together the most offensive quotations available from Imams or rulings of Islamic jurors over time. How hard can it be to grasp the ins and outs of a 1500-year-old religious tradition whose texts are written mostly in languages you don’t understand, which spans countries and continents and has billions of adherents? Judaism could be well understood after several hours on anti-Semitic websites, right? And Atheist websites would be a great guide to the history of Christianity? Right. So stick to anti-Islam websites for your information. What could go wrong?

Welcome! I know a lot of people on here consider you to be an enemy. I do not, I hope you come here often and share your perspective. Most Latter Day Saints are about love, unfortunately some are not as loving.

Who here has declared him an enemy? I don't think he's an enemy. Most Muslims I've met are kind. I'd invite this brother into my home and make dinner for him.

I just don't want the church of Christ to give money to a religion that worships another God. I can't see Moses doing this, I can't see Peter doing this, I can't see Alma doing this. I don't want the church giving money to a people that demand protection and respect that they would not return in their own cultures.
I don't want the church giving money to a religion that causes it's people to throw gay people off of roofs and stones women for committing adultery. I don't want the church giving money to a religion that allows women to be treated as second-class citizens.

How many of them are extreme? Most numbers I've seen range between 10% - 20%. Oh, not a big deal right? Well that's actually gonna be 20X the amount of Mormons in the world. How many aren't extreme, but support those extremists? How many support some of what the extremists practice? The number balloons. I don't want to support that, I don't want my church supporting that.

Local governments in the Europe are covering up crimes by Muslims, websites like Amazon remove books that criticize Islam while no such protections are in place for Christians. Feminists act like Christians are misogynist bigots because we don't want them to abort babies but say nothing about Muslims and their treatment of women. How many celebrities and liberal politicians freaked out about the attack on the Mosque but said zilch zero nada about the attack on the Christians weeks later that killed/injured far more?

Muslims get enough protection from the world. Our God is a jealous God, he does not want us worshiping other Gods and I have a hard time believing he's down with us giving money to religions that worship other Gods.

[Zathura]

Welcome to the LDSFF where no middle ground is ever to tolerated.

What middle ground to you think should be tolerated here? (Btw I frequently take the middle ground on other topics).

You think we should cover paintings of Jesus for Muslims to pray to another God? You think we should give them money to build up their churches?

Do you not think some topics don’t deserve middle ground?

I think we should act like Christians and love our neighbors. We should do unto others as we'd have them do unto us. We should act like we've been born again, if we truly have actually been born again.
As Joseph said-
"While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

“If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too" -Joseph

I can love my neighbor and still refrain from giving money to his religion that enables and encourages the killing of Christians, gays, adulterers and a number of other abominations.

Like I said, I'd invite this brother to my home, but I'm not about to cover up pictures of our Creator so that he can pray to a foreign God.

[Fiannan]

Luke 9:26:

For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

If my kids invited friends over to my house and made sure to put towels over any pictures of me how then should I interpret it?

[Lizzy60]

There are only two churches. To say that any church is not Christ's and is therefore one of Satan's, does not mean that I, any other LDS, or any other human being HATES another human being. I don't believe that Christ's Kingdom (His Church) is on the Earth right now. The Earth is full of people who will choose to be in the Church of the Lamb of God when Christ returns (even Muslims, Catholics, and atheists) and there are many people who will not choose Christ's Kingdom, even after confessing He is the Christ. This group will include many LDS and other Christians, as well as heathens, Muslims and atheists.

Right now the wheat and tares are growing together.

[EmmaLee]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

[thestock]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

[Zathura]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I'd probably say I interpret it like this:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever REPENTETH and COMETH UNTO ME, the same IS MY CHURCH. 68 Whosoever DECLARETH MORE OR LESS than this, the same IS NOT OF ME, but is AGAINST ME; therefore he is not of my church. 69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Mosiah 26:21 And he that will HEAR MY VOICE shall be my sheep; and him shall YE RECEIVE into the church, and him will I also receive. 22 For behold, THIS IS MY CHURCH; WHOSOEVER IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE BAPTIZED UNTO REPENTANCE. And whomsoever ye receive shall BELIEVE IN MY NAME; and him will I freely forgive.

[EmmaLee]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I have no doubt the central banking system falls into the 'Church of the Devil' category, but they are by no means the only occupants, and they do not fulfill all of the major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi that I listed above. Is the central banking system butchering tens of thousands of Christians in Africa and other places, and burning their churches down? Etc. etc.

[thestock]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I'd probably say I interpret it like this:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever REPENTETH and COMETH UNTO ME, the same IS MY CHURCH. 68 Whosoever DECLARETH MORE OR LESS than this, the same IS NOT OF ME, but is AGAINST ME; therefore he is not of my church. 69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Mosiah 26:21 And he that will HEAR MY VOICE shall be my sheep; and him shall YE RECEIVE into the church, and him will I also receive. 22 For behold, THIS IS MY CHURCH; WHOSOEVER IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE BAPTIZED UNTO REPENTANCE. And whomsoever ye receive shall BELIEVE IN MY NAME; and him will I freely forgive.

Thanks. How do you interpret the Church of the Devil?

[Zathura]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I'd probably say I interpret it like this:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever REPENTETH and COMETH UNTO ME, the same IS MY CHURCH. 68 Whosoever DECLARETH MORE OR LESS than this, the same IS NOT OF ME, but is AGAINST ME; therefore he is not of my church. 69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Mosiah 26:21 And he that will HEAR MY VOICE shall be my sheep; and him shall YE RECEIVE into the church, and him will I also receive. 22 For behold, THIS IS MY CHURCH; WHOSOEVER IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE BAPTIZED UNTO REPENTANCE. And whomsoever ye receive shall BELIEVE IN MY NAME; and him will I freely forgive.

Thanks. How do you interpret the Church of the Devil?

Those that don't repent and come unto Christ, or those who declare more or less than his doctrine.

[thestock]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I have no doubt the central banking system falls into the 'Church of the Devil' category, but they are by no means the only occupants, and they do not fulfill all of the major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi that I listed above. Is the central banking system butchering tens of thousands of Christians in Africa and other places, and burning their churches down? Etc. etc.

Well, yes. The Central Banking system finances all the wars in the world. Launders all the money for criminals. Keeps crooked politicans in power in the democratic states it controls. Keeps wicked and murderous dictators in power in the monarchy states it controls. Armed and financed Bin Laden against the Russians in the 80's. Orchestrated the collapse of Russia in the 80's and then moved on to make war with the rest of the middle East that would not accept its rule.....turning against its once ally Bin Laden in the process in order to justify their murderous presence in the region.

Do I know all of this to be certain fact? No, not on the minute details....but I have seen the big picture. I will never forget the night I was reading Revelation and I pulled a dollar out of my wallet and saw the mark of the beast in my hand. Yes, the almighty petrodollar, without which no man can buy or sell. Do we worship it? Or do we serve God instead?

[EmmaLee]

Here is how the LDS Church and its scriptures define the 'Church of the Devil' -

Church of the Devil
See also Church, Great and Abominable; Churches, False; Devil; TG Devil, Church of

devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.

those who build church upon works of devil have joy for season, then comes end, 3 Ne. 27:11.

the Lord will cause those who build up kingdom of devil to tremble and shake, D&C 10:56.

contend against no church, save church of devil, D&C 18:20.

***

This is also very interesting (assuming you are aware of current worldwide events) -

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)

It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)

It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Full article here - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1988/0 ... d?lang=eng

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I have no doubt the central banking system falls into the 'Church of the Devil' category, but they are by no means the only occupants, and they do not fulfill all of the major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi that I listed above. Is the central banking system butchering tens of thousands of Christians in Africa and other places, and burning their churches down? Etc. etc.

Well, yes. The Central Banking system finances all the wars in the world. Launders all the money for criminals. Keeps crooked politicans in power in the democratic states it controls. Keeps wicked and murderous dictators in power in the monarchy states it controls. Armed and financed Bin Laden against the Russians in the 80's. Orchestrated the collapse of Russia in the 80's and then moved on to make war with the rest of the middle East that would not accept its rule.....turning against its once ally Bin Laden in the process in order to justify their murderous presence in the region.

Do I know all of this to be certain fact? No, not on the minute details....but I have seen the big picture. I will never forget the night I was reading Revelation and I pulled a dollar out of my wallet and saw the mark of the beast in my hand. Yes, the almighty petrodollar, without which no man can buy or sell. Do we worship it? Or do we serve God instead?

I don't disagree with that, in fact, I wholeheartedly agree with all that you said - but it does not take into account what I'm referring to. But I'm done with this thread, as shadow and setyourselffree have spoken, and as I am, according to them, obviously a thing of naught, you should ignore anything/everything I say and have ever said.

[abijah]

The root of Islam is in the seed of bitterness that God chose Isaac & Jacob. The designs of God even surpass the rigid laws of primogeniture, in heaven and now in earth. Israel will reign as king and god.

[thestock]

I interpret this to be describing the central banking system which truly has dominion over the entire Earth and makes wars throughout history with those nations who will not submit.

I have no doubt the central banking system falls into the 'Church of the Devil' category, but they are by no means the only occupants, and they do not fulfill all of the major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi that I listed above. Is the central banking system butchering tens of thousands of Christians in Africa and other places, and burning their churches down? Etc. etc.

Well, yes. The Central Banking system finances all the wars in the world. Launders all the money for criminals. Keeps crooked politicans in power in the democratic states it controls. Keeps wicked and murderous dictators in power in the monarchy states it controls. Armed and financed Bin Laden against the Russians in the 80's. Orchestrated the collapse of Russia in the 80's and then moved on to make war with the rest of the middle East that would not accept its rule.....turning against its once ally Bin Laden in the process in order to justify their murderous presence in the region.

Do I know all of this to be certain fact? No, not on the minute details....but I have seen the big picture. I will never forget the night I was reading Revelation and I pulled a dollar out of my wallet and saw the mark of the beast in my hand. Yes, the almighty petrodollar, without which no man can buy or sell. Do we worship it? Or do we serve God instead?

I don't disagree with that, in fact, I wholeheartedly agree with all that you said - but it does not take into account what I'm referring to. But I'm done with this thread, as shadow and setyourselffree have spoken, and as I am, according to them, obviously a thing of naught, you should ignore anything/everything I say and have ever said.

If its one thing I know about you (one of my favorite posters here) its that nothing anyone says on here is reason for you to tuck tail and run. If you are doing it, then you are doing it of your own accord.....not because of anything anyone said to you. Don't worry about them...I am sure they mean well (such as PMing you an apology) but at times can't help themselves when they see a chance to criticize someone. I know I fall into that trap too much myself.

[Aprhys]

I'd rather he give the dough to a mosque than another mall or highrise.

[gkearney]

I was trained in Australia for the chaplain service. Chaplains, as you may or many not know, are given training in and expected to be able to support all religious traditions even those not their own. So I was taught somewhat about Islam and its religious traditions. Islam is part of the Abrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism being the other two.

At Christmas time the question came up about the observance of such in public settings such as schools, by the city and so on. A story had circulated in the local media (Perth) about a school which had canceled their Christmas program out of "respect" of their muslim students. This event cause a backlash not only for the European Australians but from the local Muslim leaders in the community as well. As it was explained to us in our class at the time. Most Muslims have no issue with the religious aspect of Christmas at all and indeed many muslims observe the holiday. So the leadership of the muslim community in Perth did not at all care for the idea of a school canceling Christmas observances on account of them. Indeed they were offended by such an act.

I suspect that the covering of the pictures of Christ in an LDS meetinghouse was not incited by the muslims but by over zealous church members who, knowing nothing of Islam it beliefs, practices or traditions, felt they needed to do this. Now there is some very conservative branches of Islam that hold that there should be no images of anything which God has created (people, animals, landscapes, etc.) lest they become a graven image but I rather doubt such was the case here. Rather I suspect that this, like the Christmas program, was a well meaning but mistaken belief by those who did not know any better.

I have traveled in the Arab world at Christmas and can tell you that cities like Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi are fully into Christmas complete with nativity displays and all the other accoutrements of the holiday.

It is well to remember that the six great prophets of Islam are:

Muhammad.
Adam.
Noah.
Abraham.
Moses.
Jesus.