Can you concede this? Social Experiment.

[SJR3t2]

The D&C states quorums are equal in power and not hierarchical.

D&C 107:24-37
24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named. 27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other— 28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise— 29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men. 30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity; 31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord. 32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision. 33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews. 34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews— 35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. 36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.


D&C (LDS 107:23-26) (RLDS )
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.

[topcat]

The D&C states quorums are equal in power and not hierarchical.

D&C 107:24-37
24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named. 27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other— 28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise— 29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men. 30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity; 31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord. 32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision. 33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews. 34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews— 35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. 36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.


D&C (LDS 107:23-26) (RLDS )
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.

Yes, it SAYS that in black and white. But if you raise this as an issue, and start asking publicly and teaching publicly why the heck this section is ignored, you will be excommunicated post haste.

Obviously, people who seek power and gain and want to control others cannot be governed by this section. This section is anathema to their authoritarian bent.

[SJR3t2]

The D&C states quorums are equal in power and not hierarchical.

D&C 107:24-37
24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named. 27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other— 28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise— 29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men. 30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity; 31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord. 32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision. 33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews. 34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews— 35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. 36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.


D&C (LDS 107:23-26) (RLDS )
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 24 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY and power to the three presidents previously mentioned. 25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 26 And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
36 The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council. 37 The high council in Zion form a quorum EQUAL IN AUTHORITY in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion.

Yes, it SAYS that in black and white. But if you raise this as an issue, and start asking publicly and teaching publicly why the heck this section is ignored, you will be excommunicated post haste.

Obviously, people who seek power and gain and want to control others cannot be governed by this section. This section is anathema to their authoritarian bent.

This is an example how LDS church and members don't hold unto all of God's words, but just the ones that make them feel warm and fuzzy. They don't like any of God's words that shows things are not as they are supposed to be.

[shadow]

The D&C states quorums are equal in power and not hierarchical.

Not really-

33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews. 34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—


You just have to pay attention to what's actually written. You can't pick out a few verses without the context of the others.

[topcat]

DC 107 speaks for itself.

EQUAL is mentioned 5 times in this one section. But don't believe for a minute that equal means equal.

I continue to believe that there are paid trolls making some good part-time money trying to prevent people from waking up by reading the scriptures and letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

[Arandur]

Various bodies having equal authority with one another, yet some act under the direction of others.

It’s really something to think about, isn’t it?

[Jonesy]

What would you say it all comes down to? That there are no keys in the church?

Jonesy,

Is that the best question? Is that question even vital to UNDERSTANDING truth?

I mean, can one arrive at the truth without EVER even asking that question?

Does Moroni mention your question in Moroni 10:3-5?

May I ask, Why YOU are focused on that question? It must be extremely important to you. I would love to hear an honest and public self-evaluation as to why this question is important to you, in context of what relevance your question has in the process of learning what is true.

This makes it so much easier to address, because it shows that you do not understand the importance of the keys.

If you don’t have the keys, you don’t have the baptism of John. It’s that simple. If there’s anything you get from this discussion and that you should acknowledge, let it be that; the rest of the discussion will be unfruitful. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants becomes so important in our day. It sets forth how the gospel is to be administered—through the keys.

[The Airbender]

1-5) Yes. 6) Anything is possible. 7) Obviously yes. Just because A=B doesn't mean A=C or D or XYZ. We should seek to know for ourselves each point from the Spirit.

[topcat]

What would you say it all comes down to? That there are no keys in the church?

Jonesy,

Is that the best question? Is that question even vital to UNDERSTANDING truth?

I mean, can one arrive at the truth without EVER even asking that question?

Does Moroni mention your question in Moroni 10:3-5?

May I ask, Why YOU are focused on that question? It must be extremely important to you. I would love to hear an honest and public self-evaluation as to why this question is important to you, in context of what relevance your question has in the process of learning what is true.

This makes it so much easier to address, because it shows that you do not understand the importance of the keys.

If you don’t have the keys, you don’t have the baptism of John. It’s that simple. If there’s anything you get from this discussion and that you should acknowledge, let it be that; the rest of the discussion will be unfruitful. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants becomes so important in our day. It sets forth how the gospel is to be administered—through the keys.

You are indicating that "it all comes down to" keys. In your mind, the most critical question is WHO has the keys. Is that right?

But what about WHAT are keys? Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 says the keys are the right to control others, or to govern. But if THAT is what keys are, then I submit that is a false definition, even that is a definition that Laman and Lemuel would sustain and vigorously approve of! They said to Nephi, one who was meeting with Christ and was a "true prophet":

3 Yea, they did murmur against me, saying: Our younger brother thinks to rule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs unto us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people.

2 Nephi 5:3

For the objective reader, please compare the murderous Laman and Lemuel's views on the right to rule with the official definition of keys found in Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 (page 8), which is what all Mormons are officially and authoritatively taught by our leaders, even the apostles:

2.1.1 Priesthood Keys

Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2;
124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

Section 2.1.1 has a familiar spirit. It's as if it was written by Giddianhi in 3 Nephi 3:10:

And I write this epistle unto you, Lachoneus, and I hope that ye will deliver up your lands and your possessions, without the shedding of blood, that this my people may recover their rights and government, who have dissented away from you because of your wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government, and except ye do this, I will avenge their wrongs. I am Giddianhi.

Giddianhi sought to enforce his leadership and influence by FORCE, being willing to murder thousands of people to direct, control, and govern those he sought to subject to his rule. Nehor did the same thing, by slaying Gideon who disagreed with him.

The spirit of Giddianhi is wicked. He is focused on his right to direct, control, and govern. He desires to preside over and direct the people. The words I put in bold are from Section 2.1.1.

Jonesy, I believe this evil spirit permeates Section 2.1.1. Hierarchy characterizes the devil's kingdom. The incessant focus on WHO has the keys is the wrong spirit for you to be following, in my humble opinion.

OF COURSE, those who are teaching you to respect and follow them because they have the keys are under the same spirit. Hierarchy is important to them. Hierarchy determines who is subordinate to whom. The whole "keys" argument is geared toward establishing who has the right to rule. It's a form of compulsion. It's anti DC 121. No power of influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. In other words, HIERARCHY doesn't matter! It's a trap for those who wish to cover their sins, gratify their pride and vain ambitions, and to control others.

As I said earlier, WHO has the keys is a laughable question when considering what is true. And isn't what is true the most critical part of approaching salvation? Honestly, if you can't determine what is true, then how do you know what path to follow, or what voice to heed? God's voice will not compel. It will not quote authority to you. That is the devil's voice.

Your foundation firmly rests on keys, when the whole question of keys has ZERO part in the foundation of what is Truth!

I wish you could see it. Your (un)belief trumps truth. Authority isn't truth. Truth is authority.

[topcat]

Various bodies having equal authority with one another, yet some act under the direction of others.

It’s really something to think about, isn’t it?

If you just gloss over it without the context of the other scriptures in the same section which are plain to the understanding of man, it might be confusing. Or if you are infused with a spirit which teaches you that power comes from hierarchy, then you will 100% interpret the "under the direction" phrase as meaning "has POWER" (read corporate hierarchical power) to order subordinates around. This is a false spirit. It's a wicked spirit. And unfortunately, it has total control of the mainstream members. Those awake to it, and who have forsaken that spirit through repentance are persecuted by those under the spell of that false spirit.

I've just realized what it is. It's a false spirit. If I were to name that false spirit, it would be "hierarchy", or "keys" (as in "we have the keys".

Hierarchy, as well as compulsion, and subordination, characterizes the kingdom of the devil and is wholly incompatible with God's economy and kingdom.

Please read my previous post for more insight.

[Jonesy]

What would you say it all comes down to? That there are no keys in the church?

Jonesy,

Is that the best question? Is that question even vital to UNDERSTANDING truth?

I mean, can one arrive at the truth without EVER even asking that question?

Does Moroni mention your question in Moroni 10:3-5?

May I ask, Why YOU are focused on that question? It must be extremely important to you. I would love to hear an honest and public self-evaluation as to why this question is important to you, in context of what relevance your question has in the process of learning what is true.

This makes it so much easier to address, because it shows that you do not understand the importance of the keys.

If you don’t have the keys, you don’t have the baptism of John. It’s that simple. If there’s anything you get from this discussion and that you should acknowledge, let it be that; the rest of the discussion will be unfruitful. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants becomes so important in our day. It sets forth how the gospel is to be administered—through the keys.

You are indicating that "it all comes down to" keys. In your mind, the most critical question is WHO has the keys. Is that right?

But what about WHAT are keys? Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 says the keys are the right to control others, or to govern. But if THAT is what keys are, then I submit that is a false definition, even that is a definition that Laman and Lemuel would sustain and vigorously approve of! They said to Nephi, one who was meeting with Christ and was a "true prophet":

3 Yea, they did murmur against me, saying: Our younger brother thinks to rule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs unto us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people.

2 Nephi 5:3

For the objective reader, please compare the murderous Laman and Lemuel's views on the right to rule with the official definition of keys found in Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 (page 8), which is what all Mormons are officially and authoritatively taught by our leaders, even the apostles:

2.1.1 Priesthood Keys

Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2;
124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

Section 2.1.1 has a familiar spirit. It's as if it was written by Giddianhi in 3 Nephi 3:10:

And I write this epistle unto you, Lachoneus, and I hope that ye will deliver up your lands and your possessions, without the shedding of blood, that this my people may recover their rights and government, who have dissented away from you because of your wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government, and except ye do this, I will avenge their wrongs. I am Giddianhi.

Giddianhi sought to enforce his leadership and influence by FORCE, being willing to murder thousands of people to direct, control, and govern those he sought to subject to his rule. Nehor did the same thing, by slaying Gideon who disagreed with him.

The spirit of Giddianhi is wicked. He is focused on his right to direct, control, and govern. He desires to preside over and direct the people. The words I put in bold are from Section 2.1.1.

Jonesy, I believe this evil spirit permeates Section 2.1.1. Hierarchy characterizes the devil's kingdom. The incessant focus on WHO has the keys is the wrong spirit for you to be following, in my humble opinion.

OF COURSE, those who are teaching you to respect and follow them because they have the keys are under the same spirit. Hierarchy is important to them. Hierarchy determines who is subordinate to whom. The whole "keys" argument is geared toward establishing who has the right to rule. It's a form of compulsion. It's anti DC 121. No power of influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. In other words, HIERARCHY doesn't matter! It's a trap for those who wish to cover their sins, gratify their pride and vain ambitions, and to control others.

As I said earlier, WHO has the keys is a laughable question when considering what is true. And isn't what is true the most critical part of approaching salvation? Honestly, if you can't determine what is true, then how do you know what path to follow, or what voice to heed? God's voice will not compel. It will not quote authority to you. That is the devil's voice.

Your foundation firmly rests on keys, when the whole question of keys has ZERO part in the foundation of what is Truth!

I wish you could see it. Your (un)belief trumps truth. Authority isn't truth. Truth is authority.

No, no, of course it doesn’t ALL come down to the keys. It is a piece of the pie, though. But in regards to this thread and our discussion, I think it does come down to the subject of keys.

You have a very interesting view of what you think keys are for. I think scripturally speaking, there’s solid evidence that the keys are necessary. After all, the Lord’s people always had the keys even through times of unrighteousness. God only destroyed His people when they “rejected every word of God”. So, as long as there is even just a tiny ounce of faith, God will spare His people; because that’s how God works—through faith. And in the church today, we haven’t rejected every word of God. Still pretty distant.

What do YOU think the keys are for? Forget what you think the church says the keys are for.

[harakim]

I'm not really sure what the keys are for because God can do all his works however he wants. Why would he limit it to such a few arbitrary people?

[endlessQuestions]

Jonesy, this is amazingly well stated. I agree with 99% of it. I agree with how you characterized the original post. I also identify with your characterization of yourself as a TBM -- that is, I may or may not consider myself to be a TBM, but I'm fine with the label.

My remaining comments are directed at topcat:

Regarding the church being subservient to the goverment -- I would remind you that Christ taught us to render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's. Joseph Smith also taught that governments are instituted for a good purpose. It is right and reasonable that the Church would therefore do all things in wisdom and order, and this includes its status in relation to the government. I don't see any real problems there.

I concede that with respect to polygamy, there are some really hard questions, which may never be answered satisfactorily until the millennium. So yes, I concede it MIGHT be true that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. I personally think he married multiple wives, but probably did not have sex with any of them. However, I'm open to the truth and learning more about it, so there aren't any polygamy-related narrative "hills" that I'm willing to die on.

You are okay with a church that purports to be led by Christ to be subservient to the government? How do you interpret render unto Caesar to mean submit to Caesar?

What about the first commandment?

What about you cannot serve two masters?

You cannot think of any circumstances where what the state wants may conflict with what Christ wants? I

Do you think that the threat of removing tax exempt status is a motivator for corporations, esp those who'd like to keep billions of dollars?

Ori, you are on a freedom forum, so I will assume you are familiar with the historical and current truth that the state is an enemy to freedom. Authoritarians get in power and persecute those who preach Liberty, usually through threats against property, liberty, and even threatening death. Yes, governments kill. Look up democide.

The rule of thumb is that governments, meaning evil people have risen to the top and control things, plunder and enslave their people. Unfortunately the United States government, as it has evolved from the glorious days of the Founding Fathers, is no different than any other government in history, and the oligarchical technocrats who rule us have figured out a way for the slaves to enjoy their servitude, indeed to not even realize that they're slaves.

However for those who have figured it out, and do voice their opposition to the corruption and the authoritarian laws of the land that oppress and molest, they become targets of persecution by the government. Hopefully I need not give real world examples of that happening right now in America to the conservative / Libertarian voices out there.

I will assume you are aware of the many examples of outright Orwellian government oppression going on right now.

Since I assume you will do not deny the atrocities by governments against their own people, I equally assume that you will understand that governments use every form of intimidation and oppression to control the people, so the evil leaders can remain in power and not be exposed.

Which patriot voices historically are the ones targeted first? In other words which voices are most influential in a society to inspire the people to fight tyranny and to preserve and enlarge freedom?

The answer would be the Christian voices. The churches. So wouldn't it make perfect sense if you're the government to cleverly make laws whereby the churches could all be controlled through threats to tax them if they don't stay in line with what you want them to say or not to say?

And that of course is exactly what has happened in America. It's been this way for decades. I anticipate that since you are a visitor on this freedom forum, that this will make intuitive sense to you.

And so with all of this being said, might there be a conflict of interest by not only this church but any church that has tax-exempt status, and is incorporated, wherebywhat the church leaders preach may be influenced by those in the government?

Throughout the decades patriots have written thousands of articles that have exposed how the sermons of American preachers have been gutted and the preachers themselves totally brought to heel by their government masters.

Do you believe the Mormon Church is an exception, and they don't care about having their wealth and assets confiscated and corporation annihilated by the government?

If you believe that, then you need to go revisit our history in 1890. It is a verifiable case study. It demonstrates the path the church leaders deliberately chose in order stay out of prison, and to preserve their assets.

At the time polygamous relationships were an essential part of exaltation. And that doctrine just coincidentally changed a hundred and eighty degrees at the time church leaders were threatened with imprisonment and confiscation of property. Think about that, in context of the questions I'm asking you.

The government actually caused the church leaders to declare its doctrine invalid and even to reverse it, on threat of imprisonment and theft of property. You don't see a conflict of interest?

The obvious concern of everybody with her head out of the sand is, to whom do the leaders submit to? To whom do they pledge their loyalty, not just by word but deed.

When push comes to shove, who will win, Mammon or God?

“Cynics do not contribute, skeptics do not create, doubters do not achieve.”

Are you willing to concede that you are a highly cynical, skeptical, and doubting individual when it comes to church history and beliefs?

Which one of my questions or examples prompt you to ask that question? Are any of my questions unreasonable?

It's a common and weak tactic to personally attack or defame when you have no argument.

Do you find it unfortunate that you and others label people cynical, skeptical, or doubtful for simply asking questions?

Do you concede or acknowledge any of the facts that I listed above, or are you content to employ ad hominem attacks?

EDIT: I just removed the whole comment. It was inappropriate.

[Aprhys]

I believe that ANYONE who believes ANY MAN who says that they will never lead they astray is a mental pygmy. If I were to start a cult (not saying the church is a cult) one of the first things that I would tell my followers is that "of course the Lord will never let me lead you astray! You can believe everything I say and do!" That right there is straight out of "Manipulation 101."

[davedan]

Luke16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

The Church is working within the system and following Christ's direction.

The local leadership who mainly deal with individual sin are unpaid which does avoid conflict of interest.

GA's get a living stipend for their executive administration duties, which I think allows them to focus more on their ministry. Because being a GA is a full-time job, money problems would be a distraction. There really isn't time to stop and sew tents like Paul.

[topcat]

Jonesy,

Is that the best question? Is that question even vital to UNDERSTANDING truth?

I mean, can one arrive at the truth without EVER even asking that question?

Does Moroni mention your question in Moroni 10:3-5?

May I ask, Why YOU are focused on that question? It must be extremely important to you. I would love to hear an honest and public self-evaluation as to why this question is important to you, in context of what relevance your question has in the process of learning what is true.

This makes it so much easier to address, because it shows that you do not understand the importance of the keys.

If you don’t have the keys, you don’t have the baptism of John. It’s that simple. If there’s anything you get from this discussion and that you should acknowledge, let it be that; the rest of the discussion will be unfruitful. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants becomes so important in our day. It sets forth how the gospel is to be administered—through the keys.

You are indicating that "it all comes down to" keys. In your mind, the most critical question is WHO has the keys. Is that right?

But what about WHAT are keys? Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 says the keys are the right to control others, or to govern. But if THAT is what keys are, then I submit that is a false definition, even that is a definition that Laman and Lemuel would sustain and vigorously approve of! They said to Nephi, one who was meeting with Christ and was a "true prophet":

3 Yea, they did murmur against me, saying: Our younger brother thinks to rule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs unto us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people.

2 Nephi 5:3

For the objective reader, please compare the murderous Laman and Lemuel's views on the right to rule with the official definition of keys found in Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 (page 8), which is what all Mormons are officially and authoritatively taught by our leaders, even the apostles:

2.1.1 Priesthood Keys

Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2;
124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

Section 2.1.1 has a familiar spirit. It's as if it was written by Giddianhi in 3 Nephi 3:10:

And I write this epistle unto you, Lachoneus, and I hope that ye will deliver up your lands and your possessions, without the shedding of blood, that this my people may recover their rights and government, who have dissented away from you because of your wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government, and except ye do this, I will avenge their wrongs. I am Giddianhi.

Giddianhi sought to enforce his leadership and influence by FORCE, being willing to murder thousands of people to direct, control, and govern those he sought to subject to his rule. Nehor did the same thing, by slaying Gideon who disagreed with him.

The spirit of Giddianhi is wicked. He is focused on his right to direct, control, and govern. He desires to preside over and direct the people. The words I put in bold are from Section 2.1.1.

Jonesy, I believe this evil spirit permeates Section 2.1.1. Hierarchy characterizes the devil's kingdom. The incessant focus on WHO has the keys is the wrong spirit for you to be following, in my humble opinion.

OF COURSE, those who are teaching you to respect and follow them because they have the keys are under the same spirit. Hierarchy is important to them. Hierarchy determines who is subordinate to whom. The whole "keys" argument is geared toward establishing who has the right to rule. It's a form of compulsion. It's anti DC 121. No power of influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. In other words, HIERARCHY doesn't matter! It's a trap for those who wish to cover their sins, gratify their pride and vain ambitions, and to control others.

As I said earlier, WHO has the keys is a laughable question when considering what is true. And isn't what is true the most critical part of approaching salvation? Honestly, if you can't determine what is true, then how do you know what path to follow, or what voice to heed? God's voice will not compel. It will not quote authority to you. That is the devil's voice.

Your foundation firmly rests on keys, when the whole question of keys has ZERO part in the foundation of what is Truth!

I wish you could see it. Your (un)belief trumps truth. Authority isn't truth. Truth is authority.

No, no, of course it doesn’t ALL come down to the keys. It is a piece of the pie, though. But in regards to this thread and our discussion, I think it does come down to the subject of keys.

You have a very interesting view of what you think keys are for. I think scripturally speaking, there’s solid evidence that the keys are necessary. After all, the Lord’s people always had the keys even through times of unrighteousness. God only destroyed His people when they “rejected every word of God”. So, as long as there is even just a tiny ounce of faith, God will spare His people; because that’s how God works—through faith. And in the church today, we haven’t rejected every word of God. Still pretty distant.

What do YOU think the keys are for? Forget what you think the church says the keys are for.

It's a great question you ask.

What are the keys for? But first, we must ask, What are the keys?

I usually turn to the BoM for heavenly insight into any gospel question. When you search "keys" in the BoM, remarkably nothing relevant shows up, only a reference to the literal keys to Laban's treasury. We get no definition.

I ask you, the fact that the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel and there is zero mention of keys being needed for anything, is that a conspicuous omission? I'd say there is no doubt it's a conspicuous omission. Their omission compels us to see the obvious implication: that the "keys" are waaaay overrated if not being grossly manipulated for a particular purpose.

Let's turn to your question to me of what I think the keys are for... The unfortunate answer is that these mysterious keys, whatever the definition is, are used by Church leaders to "prove" they are right. "Lo here, lo there!" as Joseph observed back in 1820. It's the speech of one contending with opponents, but not having an argument they care to bring forth, so they rely on their authority (their keys).

Interestingly, Pres Joseph F. Smith didn't think there was anything special about the keys of the living apostles. I found this gem at https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1973/ ... d?lang=eng:

If it were necessary … and there was no man left on earth holding the Melchizedek Priesthood, except an elder—that elder, by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed, and should proceed, to organize the Church of Jesus Christ in all its perfection, because he holds the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He is saying that if all the apostles were to be killed off, NOTHING WOULD BE LOST! Ho hum, ain't no problem, he says. Let them all get blown to smithereens and let all the priesthood be destroyed from off the face of the earth, all except one elder. And that elder "by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed" to restore the Church..."

With this statement, it would be commonsense to say that Almighty God could. if He wanted to, inspire and direct ANY man to do His work, so that even if ALL priesthood holders were to vanish, all hope wouldn't be lost, God could still do His own work and inspire some

From this logic, we can deduce that it's not the priesthood or keys that matter, it's the CONNECTION WITH HEAVEN that matters so that you're truly "inspired" and "directed" by God to do something. And indeed we DO find this connection precisely described in the Scriptures. Turn with me to DC 121:36:

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

In other words, priesthood/ authority/ keys come to a man only when there is a true UNITY with Christ. Makes perfect sense!

Let's look at baptism. The water baptism is wholly symbolic, pointing us to the real thing, the baptism of fire. Which is more important, the water baptism which you can easily accomplish by having a man do it for you, or the part which God does Himself? Or take the ordinance at the veil of the temple. It obviously points to the real thing, but it's not the real thing. Which would you rather receive, the imitation, or mock-up of the real thing, or actually being brought through the veil to meet the Lord?

In both examples, what MATTERS is the connection with heaven. Right?

When the baptism of fire occurs, God is directly involved. When you're brought within the veil, He is directly involved. No denying.

We Mormons are fond of saying, "Look, we have the authority to do these ordinances!" When God is not controlled by man performing any ordinances. When what's the REAL thing is what really matters.

What would you rather have? Faith without priesthood, or priesthood without faith? Or, knowledge of God without a priesthood-officiated ordinance, or a priesthood-officiated ordinance without the knowledge of God?

If you had to choose, Jonesy, which would it be?

If I may, you would pick faith and knowledge over priesthood/ ordinances.

And that right there settles the question, doesn't it?

And yet, old habits die hard, and I'm guessing many here will still say, "But we have the keys. You're wrong." To which a truth-telling John the Baptist replied to such tradition:

God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[topcat]

Luke16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

The Church is working within the system and following Christ's direction.

The local leadership who mainly deal with individual sin are unpaid which does avoid conflict of interest.

GA's get a living stipend for their executive administration duties, which I think allows them to focus more on their ministry. Because being a GA is a full-time job, money problems would be a distraction. There really isn't time to stop and sew tents like Paul.

This is the type of response one gets when obvious concessions of truth are not made. This person, due to his confirmation bias, actually is arguing FOR:

1) Conflict of interest for GA's!

A.Maze.Ing.

That King Benjamin. Boy, he's old school. Or Alma or Mosiah, or for that matter any of the true prophets. They were behind the times. They would have been distracted, had they had to work to support themselves. How could they have walked and talked with God and received knowledge if they had to spend time working!

And on the point of making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, I tell you what, qualifying for a ticket to their everlasting habitations, that's somewhere you wish to go? And Jesus made the point of throwing a qualifying statement in their so you can't misunderstand. He said, "When", not "if". WHEN YOU FAIL, said Christ.

To think that Christ is in ANY way endorsing fraud (against your employer) is beyond absurd. Or that He is endorsing being "of the world" (of unrighteous Mammon) is beyond absurd. But that's what parables allow us to do. We are free to fit the parable into our paradigm so we can justify what we want to believe. I hope people aren't interpreting the meaning that way. But to each his own.

[Mark]

This makes it so much easier to address, because it shows that you do not understand the importance of the keys.

If you don’t have the keys, you don’t have the baptism of John. It’s that simple. If there’s anything you get from this discussion and that you should acknowledge, let it be that; the rest of the discussion will be unfruitful. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants becomes so important in our day. It sets forth how the gospel is to be administered—through the keys.

You are indicating that "it all comes down to" keys. In your mind, the most critical question is WHO has the keys. Is that right?

But what about WHAT are keys? Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 says the keys are the right to control others, or to govern. But if THAT is what keys are, then I submit that is a false definition, even that is a definition that Laman and Lemuel would sustain and vigorously approve of! They said to Nephi, one who was meeting with Christ and was a "true prophet":

3 Yea, they did murmur against me, saying: Our younger brother thinks to rule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs unto us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people.

2 Nephi 5:3

For the objective reader, please compare the murderous Laman and Lemuel's views on the right to rule with the official definition of keys found in Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 (page 8), which is what all Mormons are officially and authoritatively taught by our leaders, even the apostles:

2.1.1 Priesthood Keys

Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2;
124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

Section 2.1.1 has a familiar spirit. It's as if it was written by Giddianhi in 3 Nephi 3:10:

And I write this epistle unto you, Lachoneus, and I hope that ye will deliver up your lands and your possessions, without the shedding of blood, that this my people may recover their rights and government, who have dissented away from you because of your wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government, and except ye do this, I will avenge their wrongs. I am Giddianhi.

Giddianhi sought to enforce his leadership and influence by FORCE, being willing to murder thousands of people to direct, control, and govern those he sought to subject to his rule. Nehor did the same thing, by slaying Gideon who disagreed with him.

The spirit of Giddianhi is wicked. He is focused on his right to direct, control, and govern. He desires to preside over and direct the people. The words I put in bold are from Section 2.1.1.

Jonesy, I believe this evil spirit permeates Section 2.1.1. Hierarchy characterizes the devil's kingdom. The incessant focus on WHO has the keys is the wrong spirit for you to be following, in my humble opinion.

OF COURSE, those who are teaching you to respect and follow them because they have the keys are under the same spirit. Hierarchy is important to them. Hierarchy determines who is subordinate to whom. The whole "keys" argument is geared toward establishing who has the right to rule. It's a form of compulsion. It's anti DC 121. No power of influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. In other words, HIERARCHY doesn't matter! It's a trap for those who wish to cover their sins, gratify their pride and vain ambitions, and to control others.

As I said earlier, WHO has the keys is a laughable question when considering what is true. And isn't what is true the most critical part of approaching salvation? Honestly, if you can't determine what is true, then how do you know what path to follow, or what voice to heed? God's voice will not compel. It will not quote authority to you. That is the devil's voice.

Your foundation firmly rests on keys, when the whole question of keys has ZERO part in the foundation of what is Truth!

I wish you could see it. Your (un)belief trumps truth. Authority isn't truth. Truth is authority.

No, no, of course it doesn’t ALL come down to the keys. It is a piece of the pie, though. But in regards to this thread and our discussion, I think it does come down to the subject of keys.

You have a very interesting view of what you think keys are for. I think scripturally speaking, there’s solid evidence that the keys are necessary. After all, the Lord’s people always had the keys even through times of unrighteousness. God only destroyed His people when they “rejected every word of God”. So, as long as there is even just a tiny ounce of faith, God will spare His people; because that’s how God works—through faith. And in the church today, we haven’t rejected every word of God. Still pretty distant.

What do YOU think the keys are for? Forget what you think the church says the keys are for.

It's a great question you ask.

What are the keys for? But first, we must ask, What are the keys?

I usually turn to the BoM for heavenly insight into any gospel question. When you search "keys" in the BoM, remarkably nothing relevant shows up, only a reference to the literal keys to Laban's treasury. We get no definition.

I ask you, the fact that the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel and there is zero mention of keys being needed for anything, is that a conspicuous omission? I'd say there is no doubt it's a conspicuous omission. Their omission compels us to see the obvious implication: that the "keys" are waaaay overrated if not being grossly manipulated for a particular purpose.

Let's turn to you question to me of what I think the keys are for... The unfortunate answer is that these mysterious keys, whatever the definition is, are used by Church leaders to "prove" they are right. "Lo here, lo there!" as Joseph observed back in 1820. It's the speech of one contending with opponents, but not having an argument they care to bring forth, so they rely on their authority (their keys).

Interestingly, Pres Joseph F. Smith didn't think there was anything special about the keys of the living apostles. I found this gem at https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1973/ ... d?lang=eng:

If it were necessary … and there was no man left on earth holding the Melchizedek Priesthood, except an elder—that elder, by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed, and should proceed, to organize the Church of Jesus Christ in all its perfection, because he holds the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He is saying that if all the apostles were to be killed off, NOTHING WOULD BE LOST! Ho hum, ain't no problem, he says. Let them all get blown to smithereens and let all the priesthood be destroyed from off the face of the earth, all except one elder. And that elder "by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed" to restore the Church..."

With this statement, it would be commonsense to say that Almighty God could. if He wanted to, inspire and direct ANY man to do His work, so that even if ALL priesthood holders were to vanish, all hope wouldn't be lost, God could still do His own work and inspire some

From this logic, we can deduce that it's not the priesthood or keys that matter, it's the CONNECTION WITH HEAVEN that matters so that you're truly "inspired" and "directed" by God to do something. And indeed we DO find this connection precisely described in the Scriptures. Turn with me to DC 121:36:

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

In other words, priesthood/ authority/ keys come to a man only when there is a true UNITY with Christ. Makes perfect sense!

Let's look at baptism. The water baptism is wholly symbolic, pointing us to the real thing, the baptism of fire. Which is more important, the water baptism which you can easily accomplish by having a man do it for you, or the part which God does Himself? Or take the ordinance at the veil of the temple. It obviously points to the real thing, but it's not the real thing. Which would you rather receive, the imitation, or mock-up of the real thing, or actually being brought through the veil to meet the Lord?

In both examples, what MATTERS is the connection with heaven. Right?

When the baptism of fire occurs, God is directly involved. When you're brought within the veil, He is directly involved. No denying.

We Mormons are fond of saying, "Look, we have the authority to do these ordinances!" When God is not controlled by man performing any ordinances. When what's the REAL thing is what really matters.

What would you rather have? Faith without priesthood, or priesthood without faith? Or, knowledge of God without a priesthood-officiated ordinance, or a priesthood-officiated ordinance without the knowledge of God?

If you had to choose, Jonesy, which would it be?

If I may, you would pick faith and knowledge over priesthood/ ordinances.

And that right there settles the question, doesn't it?

And yet, old habits die hard, and I'm guessing many here will still say, "But we have the keys. You're wrong." To which a truth-telling John the Baptist replied to such tradition:

God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So much sophistry; so little substance. You are intent on trying to destroy the church of God topcat. Anyone with a lick of discernment can see the game you are playing. Go read Helamen 10 since you are interested in what the Book of Mormon says about Priesthood and its relevant keys. Nephi was given those Priesthood sealing keys as the Lords Prophet. Pres. Nelson has those same keys today. Now go read section 128 of the D&C for further enlightenment about these necessary Priesthood keys. I can give you several other sections to read as well if you are interested. I see you don't even mention the many revelations given thru the Prophet Joseph about the need for proper Priesthood keys. Must just be an oversight on your part right?

[DesertWonderer2]

(yawn)

The same old tired anti-Mormon rhetoric. PLEASE get some new material. This is just as invalid now as it was when it was brought up years ago.

[topcat]

You are indicating that "it all comes down to" keys. In your mind, the most critical question is WHO has the keys. Is that right?

But what about WHAT are keys? Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 says the keys are the right to control others, or to govern. But if THAT is what keys are, then I submit that is a false definition, even that is a definition that Laman and Lemuel would sustain and vigorously approve of! They said to Nephi, one who was meeting with Christ and was a "true prophet":



For the objective reader, please compare the murderous Laman and Lemuel's views on the right to rule with the official definition of keys found in Section 2.1.1 of Handbook 2 (page 8), which is what all Mormons are officially and authoritatively taught by our leaders, even the apostles:



Section 2.1.1 has a familiar spirit. It's as if it was written by Giddianhi in 3 Nephi 3:10:



Giddianhi sought to enforce his leadership and influence by FORCE, being willing to murder thousands of people to direct, control, and govern those he sought to subject to his rule. Nehor did the same thing, by slaying Gideon who disagreed with him.

The spirit of Giddianhi is wicked. He is focused on his right to direct, control, and govern. He desires to preside over and direct the people. The words I put in bold are from Section 2.1.1.

Jonesy, I believe this evil spirit permeates Section 2.1.1. Hierarchy characterizes the devil's kingdom. The incessant focus on WHO has the keys is the wrong spirit for you to be following, in my humble opinion.

OF COURSE, those who are teaching you to respect and follow them because they have the keys are under the same spirit. Hierarchy is important to them. Hierarchy determines who is subordinate to whom. The whole "keys" argument is geared toward establishing who has the right to rule. It's a form of compulsion. It's anti DC 121. No power of influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. In other words, HIERARCHY doesn't matter! It's a trap for those who wish to cover their sins, gratify their pride and vain ambitions, and to control others.

As I said earlier, WHO has the keys is a laughable question when considering what is true. And isn't what is true the most critical part of approaching salvation? Honestly, if you can't determine what is true, then how do you know what path to follow, or what voice to heed? God's voice will not compel. It will not quote authority to you. That is the devil's voice.

Your foundation firmly rests on keys, when the whole question of keys has ZERO part in the foundation of what is Truth!

I wish you could see it. Your (un)belief trumps truth. Authority isn't truth. Truth is authority.

No, no, of course it doesn’t ALL come down to the keys. It is a piece of the pie, though. But in regards to this thread and our discussion, I think it does come down to the subject of keys.

You have a very interesting view of what you think keys are for. I think scripturally speaking, there’s solid evidence that the keys are necessary. After all, the Lord’s people always had the keys even through times of unrighteousness. God only destroyed His people when they “rejected every word of God”. So, as long as there is even just a tiny ounce of faith, God will spare His people; because that’s how God works—through faith. And in the church today, we haven’t rejected every word of God. Still pretty distant.

What do YOU think the keys are for? Forget what you think the church says the keys are for.

It's a great question you ask.

What are the keys for? But first, we must ask, What are the keys?

I usually turn to the BoM for heavenly insight into any gospel question. When you search "keys" in the BoM, remarkably nothing relevant shows up, only a reference to the literal keys to Laban's treasury. We get no definition.

I ask you, the fact that the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel and there is zero mention of keys being needed for anything, is that a conspicuous omission? I'd say there is no doubt it's a conspicuous omission. Their omission compels us to see the obvious implication: that the "keys" are waaaay overrated if not being grossly manipulated for a particular purpose.

Let's turn to you question to me of what I think the keys are for... The unfortunate answer is that these mysterious keys, whatever the definition is, are used by Church leaders to "prove" they are right. "Lo here, lo there!" as Joseph observed back in 1820. It's the speech of one contending with opponents, but not having an argument they care to bring forth, so they rely on their authority (their keys).

Interestingly, Pres Joseph F. Smith didn't think there was anything special about the keys of the living apostles. I found this gem at https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1973/ ... d?lang=eng:

If it were necessary … and there was no man left on earth holding the Melchizedek Priesthood, except an elder—that elder, by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed, and should proceed, to organize the Church of Jesus Christ in all its perfection, because he holds the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He is saying that if all the apostles were to be killed off, NOTHING WOULD BE LOST! Ho hum, ain't no problem, he says. Let them all get blown to smithereens and let all the priesthood be destroyed from off the face of the earth, all except one elder. And that elder "by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed" to restore the Church..."

With this statement, it would be commonsense to say that Almighty God could. if He wanted to, inspire and direct ANY man to do His work, so that even if ALL priesthood holders were to vanish, all hope wouldn't be lost, God could still do His own work and inspire some

From this logic, we can deduce that it's not the priesthood or keys that matter, it's the CONNECTION WITH HEAVEN that matters so that you're truly "inspired" and "directed" by God to do something. And indeed we DO find this connection precisely described in the Scriptures. Turn with me to DC 121:36:

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

In other words, priesthood/ authority/ keys come to a man only when there is a true UNITY with Christ. Makes perfect sense!

Let's look at baptism. The water baptism is wholly symbolic, pointing us to the real thing, the baptism of fire. Which is more important, the water baptism which you can easily accomplish by having a man do it for you, or the part which God does Himself? Or take the ordinance at the veil of the temple. It obviously points to the real thing, but it's not the real thing. Which would you rather receive, the imitation, or mock-up of the real thing, or actually being brought through the veil to meet the Lord?

In both examples, what MATTERS is the connection with heaven. Right?

When the baptism of fire occurs, God is directly involved. When you're brought within the veil, He is directly involved. No denying.

We Mormons are fond of saying, "Look, we have the authority to do these ordinances!" When God is not controlled by man performing any ordinances. When what's the REAL thing is what really matters.

What would you rather have? Faith without priesthood, or priesthood without faith? Or, knowledge of God without a priesthood-officiated ordinance, or a priesthood-officiated ordinance without the knowledge of God?

If you had to choose, Jonesy, which would it be?

If I may, you would pick faith and knowledge over priesthood/ ordinances.

And that right there settles the question, doesn't it?

And yet, old habits die hard, and I'm guessing many here will still say, "But we have the keys. You're wrong." To which a truth-telling John the Baptist replied to such tradition:

God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So much sophistry; so little substance. You are intent on trying to destroy the church of God topcat. Anyone with a lick of discernment can see the game you are playing. Go read Helamen 10 since you are interested in what the Book of Mormon says about Priesthood and its relevant keys. Nephi was given those Priesthood sealing keys as the Lords Prophet. Pres. Nelson has those same keys today. Now go read section 128 of the D&C for further enlightenment about these necessary Priesthood keys. I can give you several other sections to read as well if you are interested. I see you don't even mention the many revelations given thru the Prophet Joseph about the need for proper Priesthood keys. Must just be an oversight on your part right?

Mark,

I'm not what you accuse me of. I'm asking excellent questions designed to help people critically think. Truth is what's important, not an institution.

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Is it an oversight on your part to not confess that priesthood keys are INSEPARABLY CONNECTED to heaven? Will you concede that?

That explains Nephi in Helaman and your DC references.

[topcat]

(yawn)

The same old tired anti-Mormon rhetoric. PLEASE get some new material. This is just as invalid now as it was when it was brought up years ago.

Anti Mormon?

Lol!

I'm as pro Mormon as you can get and am a defender of the faith of pure Mormonism. I'm skilled at DESTROYING anti Mormon arguments. I have read the books and see them for what they are. And I see the cult followers as well, those who are not able to think for themselves, preferring allegiance to men who flatter them with enticing promises.

The ad hominem folks should restrain themselves. Best remedy is to engage by answering the questions instead of blind obedience to those who say they can't lead you astray.

[DesertWonderer2]

(yawn)

The same old tired anti-Mormon rhetoric. PLEASE get some new material. This is just as invalid now as it was when it was brought up years ago.

Anti Mormon?



Lol!

I'm as pro Mormon as you can get and am a defender of the faith of pure Mormonism. I'm skilled at DESTROYING anti Mormon arguments. I have read the books and see them for what they are. And I see the cult followers as well, those who are not able to think for themselves, preferring allegiance to men who flatter them with enticing promises.

The ad hominem folks should restrain themselves. Best remedy is to engage by answering the questions instead of blind obedience to those who say they can't lead you astray.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3QYDtSbhrA

[topcat]

(yawn)

The same old tired anti-Mormon rhetoric. PLEASE get some new material. This is just as invalid now as it was when it was brought up years ago.

Anti Mormon?



Lol!

I'm as pro Mormon as you can get and am a defender of the faith of pure Mormonism. I'm skilled at DESTROYING anti Mormon arguments. I have read the books and see them for what they are. And I see the cult followers as well, those who are not able to think for themselves, preferring allegiance to men who flatter them with enticing promises.

The ad hominem folks should restrain themselves. Best remedy is to engage by answering the questions instead of blind obedience to those who say they can't lead you astray.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3QYDtSbhrA

Where did you find that video of a typical LDS sacrament meeting?

The title could be, "The Effects of Correlation".

[Jonesy]

It's a great question you ask.

What are the keys for? But first, we must ask, What are the keys?

I usually turn to the BoM for heavenly insight into any gospel question. When you search "keys" in the BoM, remarkably nothing relevant shows up, only a reference to the literal keys to Laban's treasury. We get no definition.

I ask you, the fact that the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel and there is zero mention of keys being needed for anything, is that a conspicuous omission? I'd say there is no doubt it's a conspicuous omission. Their omission compels us to see the obvious implication: that the "keys" are waaaay overrated if not being grossly manipulated for a particular purpose.

Let's turn to you question to me of what I think the keys are for... The unfortunate answer is that these mysterious keys, whatever the definition is, are used by Church leaders to "prove" they are right. "Lo here, lo there!" as Joseph observed back in 1820. It's the speech of one contending with opponents, but not having an argument they care to bring forth, so they rely on their authority (their keys).

Interestingly, Pres Joseph F. Smith didn't think there was anything special about the keys of the living apostles. I found this gem at https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1973/ ... d?lang=eng:

If it were necessary … and there was no man left on earth holding the Melchizedek Priesthood, except an elder—that elder, by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed, and should proceed, to organize the Church of Jesus Christ in all its perfection, because he holds the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He is saying that if all the apostles were to be killed off, NOTHING WOULD BE LOST! Ho hum, ain't no problem, he says. Let them all get blown to smithereens and let all the priesthood be destroyed from off the face of the earth, all except one elder. And that elder "by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed" to restore the Church..."

With this statement, it would be commonsense to say that Almighty God could. if He wanted to, inspire and direct ANY man to do His work, so that even if ALL priesthood holders were to vanish, all hope wouldn't be lost, God could still do His own work and inspire some

From this logic, we can deduce that it's not the priesthood or keys that matter, it's the CONNECTION WITH HEAVEN that matters so that you're truly "inspired" and "directed" by God to do something. And indeed we DO find this connection precisely described in the Scriptures. Turn with me to DC 121:36:

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

In other words, priesthood/ authority/ keys come to a man only when there is a true UNITY with Christ. Makes perfect sense!

Let's look at baptism. The water baptism is wholly symbolic, pointing us to the real thing, the baptism of fire. Which is more important, the water baptism which you can easily accomplish by having a man do it for you, or the part which God does Himself? Or take the ordinance at the veil of the temple. It obviously points to the real thing, but it's not the real thing. Which would you rather receive, the imitation, or mock-up of the real thing, or actually being brought through the veil to meet the Lord?

In both examples, what MATTERS is the connection with heaven. Right?

When the baptism of fire occurs, God is directly involved. When you're brought within the veil, He is directly involved. No denying.

We Mormons are fond of saying, "Look, we have the authority to do these ordinances!" When God is not controlled by man performing any ordinances. When what's the REAL thing is what really matters.

What would you rather have? Faith without priesthood, or priesthood without faith? Or, knowledge of God without a priesthood-officiated ordinance, or a priesthood-officiated ordinance without the knowledge of God?

If you had to choose, Jonesy, which would it be?

If I may, you would pick faith and knowledge over priesthood/ ordinances.

And that right there settles the question, doesn't it?

And yet, old habits die hard, and I'm guessing many here will still say, "But we have the keys. You're wrong." To which a truth-telling John the Baptist replied to such tradition:

God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I would say it makes complete sense why there appears to be an omission of keys in the Book of Mormon. It’s because they operated under a different administration of the gospel. The Book we use for our current time and administration is the Doctrine and Covenants. That book more than compensates for our understanding of keys.

I disagree with your gross misinterpretation of what President Joseph F. Smith was saying. In fact, he says this also:

“But it is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood. In their fulness, the keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church. He may delegate any portion of this power to another, in which case that person holds the keys of that particular labor. Thus, the president of a temple, the president of a stake, the bishop of a ward, the president of a mission, the president of a quorum, each holds the keys of the labors performed in that particular body or locality. His Priesthood is not increased by this special appointment; … the president of an elders’ quorum, for example, has no more Priesthood than any member of that quorum. But he holds the power of directing the official labors performed in the … quorum, or in other words, the keys of that division of that work”

If you take these two quotes together, it makes much more sense, right? Joseph Smith Jr. first received the Aaronic priesthood then Melchizedek. So, of course God could work “by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed”.

Let’s move on:

The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same. (D&C 107: 15)

This is saying Keys=Authority.

This is not saying Priesthood=Authority.

But all this (“the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven”) means nothing more than that they (priesthood and keys/authority) go hand in hand.


But check this out:

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments. (D&C 107: 18-20)

If you hold the priesthood then you hold all the keys! Now, that doesn’t mean they are all active, it just means they are available, but some may be dormant. If your keys are active, permission is not required. This also means that you can’t have the priesthood without keys. It’s impossible.

Then there are the keys of the church, apart from the keys of the priesthood. Obviously, the church has these keys (common consent of the people) which are to validate the priesthood keys of the church.

If the Fifteen did all die, then the keys of the priesthood would be gone.

All the keys that the Fifteen hold are valid and active or dormant. I can see a time when a “church” (in the sense of the meaning today of a centralized type) will not be necessary because everyone’s priesthood keys will be active, and a central source of keys is not needed. And the people will be one. But like I said before, whether now or later, we should stick with the keys.

[topcat]

Jonesy,


Your opinion: "I would say it makes complete sense why there appears to be an omission of keys in the Book of Mormon. It’s because they operated under a different administration of the gospel."

This looks to be a potentially dangerous interpretation or mindset. It leads to many questions or implications:

1) What is different? The administration.
2) What do you mean by "administration of the gospel"?
3) This is shaping up to be another application of the "pearl in the exquisitely ornate box" analogy. From that analogy (assuming you've heard it before -- see an Elder Maxwell talk, I believe), we learn that the PEARL is what is important, and not how it's delivered or packaged. The pearl is Jesus Christ. The Atonement. The Good News. The box is how it's "administered." Agreed?
4) If you agree, then that guts your opinion of the substantive meaning you wished to convey. The administering (the "who has the keys" question) isn't what's important, it's the message, or the truth that matters.


The default setting in your mind (i.e., how you're blinded by false tradition) is that hierarchy is important, or who holds the keys is important. I have been through years of such mind conditioning. I distinctly remember being set down in the chapel in front of a visiting "authority" (another intentionally chosen word DESIGNED to get you to accept the "authority's" word as truth) who proceeded to spend at least 20 minutes on educating us leaders about "keys". The effect in my mind afterwards was this, "If I was smart, or wisely "in the know", I would listen to the man "over" me in the local hierarchy who possessed keys. He thundered, "Keep your eye on the leader with the keys, because through him revelation will come."

That lesson has been repeated over and over and over, even in General Conference, without the slightest restraint. The incessant frequency SHOULD compel you to ask yourself, WHY?!?!!?!?! Why is it SOOOOOOOOOOO darn important to understand WHO WHO WHO has the keys and that we should follow THAT person? Why does this message **NEED** to be repeated so often?

This is a great question, and one in which the person in the trance will refuse to consider. I could snap my fingers in front of the person's face and wave my hands back and forth to try to break the person free from the trance, but the "keys" spell is so entrenched, it seems almost impossible. Though there are successes. I believe the inability of people to see the truth of what I'm saying to be explained by the power of false spirits. False spirits have enslaving power. They captivate. They ensnare. They are diabolically effective. That's why this spiritual trance is repeated ultra frequently in trainings and conferences all over the world.

To repeat, HIERARCHY is a trait of the kingdom of the devil.

The focus on WHO has the keys is tied directly to hierarchy.

Hierarchy creates a CLASS STRUCTURE. The BoM warns about this throughout its pages, which should serve to awaken you to the truth I'm speaking of. Why did Mormon insert those warnings?

Your quote above is a picture perfect illustration of how a bewitched member sounds in that you yet again (you've provided many examples) said it (without even "getting it") that it's how "administering the gospel" takes place. TODAY, you say, it's administered by those who have keys." In this quote you see the box elevated to a higher stature than the pearl.

I've been preaching the pearl, but you're preaching the man-made box that carries it.

One last thing that you said which I find absolutely stunning (again, this points to being controlled by a false spirit in my humble opinion): "But all this (“the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven”) means nothing more than that they (priesthood and keys/authority) go hand in hand."

You say right there that "the powers of heaven" means precisely and nothing less than "priesthood and keys/authority go hand in hand."

Any yet the verse doesn't say anything of the sort:

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Keep in mind, the Lord is speaking so plainly that it will probably offend you. He said in the previous verses:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

What's the "one lesson"? It's the lesson that you're corrupting by saying the exact opposite of what the Lord is saying. The Lord says crystal clearly that any priesthood dispensed by Him is done only when the man is INSEPARABLY CONNECTED with "the powers of heaven." That surely in your mind can only mean something akin to "God", or "His power", or "His mind and will". There has to be complete UNITY with Him, otherwise Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man.

He explains so clearly what does wrong in the very next verses:

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

Then He ends His little chiasmus with:

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

He lays it out there in language that is still modern and colloquial even in our day. "Almost ALL men" will "immediately begin" to abuse others "as soon as they get a little authority, AS THEY SUPPOSE (lol)."


What does the abuse look like?

It resembles those who incessantly ask and answer the question, "WHO has the keys"?

LOL x 666! Meaning this Q&A is done a lot, and the inspiring influence of that frequency is not the Lord.

I repeat, truth is not dependent upon WHO has the keys. God can save whom He wants to save, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham," no matter whom a mainstream body of believers says holds "keys." Look at and appreciate the pearl of great price, and not the fancy box made with human hands.