Church Leaders and college degrees

[ori]

We are taught to be humble like a little child. People with a degree must be careful to not let the praise of the world affect their humility.

[I AM]

You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.

Humble? Seriously?

The trip to Rome, posing with their corresponding apostle's statues? Renting sports stadiums, walking in with arms upraised, and every moment broadcast on the Jumbotron? The "gallery" at Deseret Book depicting Pres Nelson's life with hundreds of copies of his new book, including 3 large monitors with slide shows of his lifetime achievements? The majority of the church members love and respect him, so why is this necessary, or even desirable?

You LITERALLY cannot enter Deseret Book at City Creek without passing through the gallery showcasing Pres Nelson's lifetime achievements. They have sealed off the other door.

Honestly Lizzie, why are you always so critical of Church leaders? I can't seem to recall you ever saying anything kind about them or really ever agreeing with what they do/say.

----------------
maybe this might answer your question.
The Drunkards of Ephraim! (church leaders)
do you ever read Isaiah ? I think you need to.

START READING ISAIAH !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50784&p=915512&hili ... ah#p915512

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51305&p=927045&hili ... 21#p927045

[I AM]

Isaiah Predicts End-Time Prophets and Seers

Isaiah—a prophet and seer who saw to the end of time—predicts that prophets and seers will exist in that future day.

These persons fall into two categories.

First are those who have “gone astray,” who “err as seers” (Isaiah 28:7), “prophets who teach falsehoods” (Isaiah 9:15), whose eyes God closes because of the wickedness of his people (Isaiah 29:10).
These watchmen of God’s people are “blind and unaware; all of them but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage” (Isaiah 56:10–11).

Second are “watchmen” who prophesy in the day of power, when God “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 51:9–11; 52:8, 10).
They stand on the watchtower day and night, are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and report what they “see” and “hear” (Isaiah 21:6–10).
They herald Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth and prepare God’s people for their end-time exodus out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; compare 48:20–21).
They “raise their voice as one” at the time Jehovah comes (Isaiah 52:8).
They call upon God without ceasing for the welfare of his people
and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6–7).

[I AM]

We are taught to be humble like a little child. People with a degree must be careful to not let the praise of the world affect their humility.

------------
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51542&p=931938&hili ... ch#p931938

[shadow]

Some people would prefer uneducated people lead the church.

7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith

15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.

Which, of course, can only be accomplished by getting degrees (honors of men) by godless universities. Joseph Smith had no degrees from godless universities. I'd put his "education" up against any of the subsequent leaders of the Church, including the current ones. Silly Jesus, asking uneducated fishermen to be his apostles. What was he thinking.

That "silly Jesus" also asked people with degrees to be his apostles. What was he thinking? Maybe you didn't think your comment through. Or maybe you don't believe today's apostles are called of God?? Maybe you can tell God how things should be

I also wonder if you, your husband or any of your children have college degrees (honors of men) and wear the so-called false robes of the priesthood? Wouldn't that be something! And how would one repent of that- forget what they learned?? Pretend to be ignorant?? Refuse a higher paying job? Turn off Jeopardy!? What latter-day blessings do you use that were developed by college educated people? Do you enter safe buildings designed and built by college trained engineers? Do you have a cel phone? Drive a modern car? Have you ever driven on a large bridge? fly on a modern jet with a pilot? Ever had an operation? Been helped by a Dr.? Do you ask your non-degreed carpenter (a lot of carpenters have degree's too) to give you a root canal?

Wow, shadow. Why are you so afraid of people who have different opinions than you? Does it shake your paradigm so very much that you constantly have to personally attack others? You sincerely seemed to be ruled by fear. It's sad. I feel sorry for you, too, justme.

I'm not afraid at all of differing opinions, I just like to point to obvious contradictions. Do you not like to have your condemnation of apostles with college degrees applied to anyone else? Are you afraid to answer any of those questions I asked because some sort of double standard or hypocrisy migjt show up? Why bring up Nibleys comment about priesthood robes if you aren't going to apply it in an equitable way towards everyone, even your own family? Frankly I haven't noted an apostle or prophet who waved his college degree around as some sort of qualifier for his calling. Have you?

[EmmaLee]

Which, of course, can only be accomplished by getting degrees (honors of men) by godless universities. Joseph Smith had no degrees from godless universities. I'd put his "education" up against any of the subsequent leaders of the Church, including the current ones. Silly Jesus, asking uneducated fishermen to be his apostles. What was he thinking.

That "silly Jesus" also asked people with degrees to be his apostles. What was he thinking? Maybe you didn't think your comment through. Or maybe you don't believe today's apostles are called of God?? Maybe you can tell God how things should be

I also wonder if you, your husband or any of your children have college degrees (honors of men) and wear the so-called false robes of the priesthood? Wouldn't that be something! And how would one repent of that- forget what they learned?? Pretend to be ignorant?? Refuse a higher paying job? Turn off Jeopardy!? What latter-day blessings do you use that were developed by college educated people? Do you enter safe buildings designed and built by college trained engineers? Do you have a cel phone? Drive a modern car? Have you ever driven on a large bridge? fly on a modern jet with a pilot? Ever had an operation? Been helped by a Dr.? Do you ask your non-degreed carpenter (a lot of carpenters have degree's too) to give you a root canal?

Wow, shadow. Why are you so afraid of people who have different opinions than you? Does it shake your paradigm so very much that you constantly have to personally attack others? You sincerely seemed to be ruled by fear. It's sad. I feel sorry for you, too, justme.

I'm not afraid at all of differing opinions, I just like to point to obvious contradictions. Do you not like to have your condemnation of apostles with college degrees applied to anyone else? Are you afraid to answer any of those questions I asked because some sort of double standard or hypocrisy migjt show up? Why bring up Nibleys comment about priesthood robes if you aren't going to apply it in an equitable way towards everyone, even your own family? Frankly I haven't noted an apostle or prophet who waved his college degree around as some sort of qualifier for his calling. Have you?

Stop letting Satan rule your life with fear, shadow. As to your 'questions' (not that you care about anything I would give for answers, unless it's lock-step in line with whatever you believe on any given topic), I answered all of them to my satisfaction in another post above, which either you haven't read, or it's not good enough for you - either way, no matter to me - I'm not going to repeat myself. Have a good one, brother.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Depressing

???
Impressive is more the word I was thinking.

Yea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.

I'm most impressed with those who follow the commandments in the D and C about gaining an education while also being disciples. It is possible to be both, as our current leadership shows. Hawking was an acclaimed scientist but I disagree with him on this count. Their are two many mainstream theoretical mathematicians who believe in God.

As has been mentioned already, one can follow the commandments and obtain real light and knowledge without having to pay money for it. You also can't show me one scripture that says to get a formal education unless you equate seeking knowledge with modern mainstream education (robes of the false priesthood).

As for Stephen Hawking, I know you said you disagree with him on that point, but that is impossible if you understand the science. If you really disagree you would also disagree with the entire foundation of modern theoretical science. You call it sound science as if mainstream science is settled. The gospel of Jesus Christ and the universal laws of nature are completely incompatible with modern science. The book of Mormon and D&C both cover this so i struggle to understand why anyone takes anything serious or truth from mainstream science.

As far as i can see, more people have completley left God and Christianity over science than any other issue. I know people who have completley lost their testimonies over night because of science. There is a good reason why. Science truly has “dominion over all the earth,” something well beyond the dominance of the Catholic church. These ideas also “blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men,” (See Nephi 13:26) and cause considerable spiritual damage. Science is not only a religion but a church. The “Big Bang” hypothesis is simply the science church’s version of creation. The Unified Field Theory is science’s Holy Grail, which is just as elusive and ephemeral a prize as the religious/mythical grail.

From Stephen Hawking...

"Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation. What I meant by 'we would know the mind of God' is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn't. I'm an atheist." -Stephen Hawking

What is the more scientific and convincing explanation...?? That nothing can act on something. Really.

"The laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from Nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going. The universe can create itself out of nothing, and God is no longer necessary.”

S. Hawking is 100% correct. This right here is the entire foundation of modern theoretical science. Effect without cause, something can act on nothing, thus spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing.! This goes against everything we see and observe and is not compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can there be a law of gravity and quantum theory if nothing exists? How can nothing do something? It cant! (EFFECTS WITHOUT CAUSE) Yet modern science whole foundation is build on this.

“It is a self evident truth, which will not admit of argument, that nothing remains nothing. Nonentity is the negative of all existence. This negative possesses no property or element upon which the energies of creative power can operate.”-Parley P Pratt

Now here is a quote from a REAL scientist, a giant among men who always praised God and gave God all the credit for his many inventions, Nikola Tesla, who agrees with Brother Pratt...

"General Relativity is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king..., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists...

"It might be inferred that I am alluding to the curvature of space supposed to exist according to the teachings of relativity, but nothing could be further from my mind. I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view."

Space cannot be curved unless something can act on nothing.

Theoretical science = cause and effect not necessary.

Gospel of Jesus Christ/Laws of Nature = cause and effect absolutely necessary or there would be nothing.

"Sound" mainstream science do not believe in the connection between cause and effect, things that act and things that are acted upon. This is false and in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ and therefore nothing can be built upon it. Gods natural laws of the universe is all about cause and effect and if a theory has no regard and breaks these eternal laws of nature without any thought it must be thrown by the wayside. (2 Ne. 2:13–26; D&C 93:30.) Real Science does not begin with sound theoretical mathematics, but with direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships. This is real science. Science is the study of patterns in nature to uncover dependable relationships between causes and effects. As they are confirmed, these relationships lead to formulations of useful “laws” governing the natural world.

If you believe in the relationship of cause and effect, than theoretical science must be thrown out. If not, please explain away the laws of nature. This is a reason why Hawking doesn't believe in miracles (cause and effect).

“Religion believes in miracles, but they are not compatible with science.”-Stephen Hawking

Why are they not compatible? Because the science doesn't believe in cause and effect.

Now compare with an LDS theology perspective. . .

"Among the popular errors of modern times, an opinion prevails that miracles are events which transpire contrary to the laws of nature, that they are effects without a cause. If such is the fact, then, there never has been a miracle, and there never will be one. The laws of nature are the laws of truth. Truth is unchangeable, and independent in its own sphere. A law of nature never has been broken. And it is an absolute impossibility that such law ever should be broken." [Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 1891, pg. 102]

Yet, the whole foundation of theoretical science breaks the laws of nature (effects without cause) and nobody even blinks an eye.

“We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjectures.”~Hannes Alfvén, Nobel Laureate 1970 for his contribution to plasma physics

Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ~Nikola Tesla

[I AM]

I don't see anything wrong with being educated. Though it seems that not having any blue collar workers in the top 15 is a bit odd.

---------------
no- there's nothing wrong with being educated and knowledgeable -
only WHAT is it exactly that you're really knowledgeable about ?
and is this education and "knowledge" you've learned
making you only more educated in things of the World
and how to fit into Babylon better ? - and because of this education
and degree you have, you let pride enter - and boast, and are proud
and think you are a level above others (at least some think they are),
and like many I've heard say and quote from scripture:
"The glory of God is intelligence", and they're sooo proud they have their degree,
and to be so smart and educated.
With all their education and academic accomplishments, are they closer to God because of it, and are being educated in the things of God ?,
or does this actually help them "fit-in" better with society and the World
and to live up to what is the accepted standard of Babylon -
with their priority being one of superior status and making money -
trying to "keep up with the Joneses".

As usual, I think the adversary with his deceptions has put darkness,
for light, and truth, which is WHAT intelligence really is. ***

Doctrine and Covenants 84:45-46

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.


D&C 93

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

***
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

[justme]

???
Impressive is more the word I was thinking.

Yea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.

I'm most impressed with those who follow the commandments in the D and C about gaining an education while also being disciples. It is possible to be both, as our current leadership shows. Hawking was an acclaimed scientist but I disagree with him on this count. Their are two many mainstream theoretical mathematicians who believe in God.

As has been mentioned already, one can follow the commandments and obtain real light and knowledge without having to pay money for it. You also can't show me one scripture that says to get a formal education unless you equate seeking knowledge with modern mainstream education (robes of the false priesthood).

The scriptures teach to seek knowledge, "even by study, and also by faith" (D&C 118). What university teaches that? Some knowledge can be learned while gaining an education, but that is not what God or the prophets of old had in mind. The devine science of theology (lectures on faith) is completley absent at BYU and every university in the world. You don't go to school to seek and obtain knowledge, you go to learn how to make $ in this world, it's not about learning and cultivating Gods heavenly gifts for the use of man and to assist in the building of Zion. You learn how to get yours and how to get ahead and obtain more than one needs which is the very reason God has pronounced multiple times that the whole world lieth in sin. There is not a university in this world that cares about improving their students talents. They are more concerned in trafficking them. BYU should be different, but it's just the same as all the others.

As for Stephen Hawking, I know you said you disagree with him on that point, but that is impossible if you understand the science. If you really disagree you would also disagree with the entire foundation of modern theoretical science. You call it sound science as if mainstream science is settled. The gospel of Jesus Christ and the universal laws of nature are completely incompatible with modern science. The book of Mormon and D&C both cover this so i stuggle to understand why anyone takes anything serious or truth from mainstream science.

As far as i can see, more people have completley left God and Christianity over science than any other issue. There is a good reason why. Science truly has “dominion over all the earth,” something well beyond the dominance of the Catholic church. These ideas also “blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men,” (See Nephi 13:26) and cause considerable spiritual damage. Science is not only a religion but a church. The “Big Bang” hypothesis is simply the science church’s version of creation. The Unified Field Theory is science’s Holy Grail, which is just as elusive and ephemeral a prize as the religious/mythical grail.

I have quoted this often but will do so one more time. The WHOLE foundation of modern theoretical science is in direct conflict with Gods eternal laws of nature. It's really simple, either the gospel is true or the science is true but it cannot be both because they are 100% incompatible with each other. Hawking and early church leaders understand why. And for the same reason. Who is correct? For anyone with discerning eyes...

From Stephen Hawking...

"Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation. What I meant by 'we would know the mind of God' is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn't. I'm an atheist." -Stephen Hawking

What is the more scientific and convincing explanation...?? That nothing can act on something. Really.

"The laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from Nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going. The universe can create itself out of nothing, and God is no longer necessary.”

S. Hawking is 100% correct. This right here is the entire foundation of modern theoretical science. Effect without cause, something can act on nothing, thus spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing.! This goes against everything we see and observe and is not compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can there be a law of gravity and quantum theory if nothing exists? How can nothing do something? It cant! (EFFECTS WITHOUT CAUSE) Yet modern science whole foundation is build on this.

“It is a self evident truth, which will not admit of argument, that nothing remains nothing. Nonentity is the negative of all existence. This negative possesses no property or element upon which the energies of creative power can operate.”-Parley P Pratt

Now here is a quote from a REAL scientist, a giant among men who always praised God and gave God all the credit for his many inventions, Nikola Tesla, who agrees with Brother Pratt...

"General Relativity is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king..., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists...

"It might be inferred that I am alluding to the curvature of space supposed to exist according to the teachings of relativity, but nothing could be further from my mind. I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view."

Space cannot be curved unless something can act on nothing.

Theoretical science = cause and effect not necessary.

Gospel of Jesus Christ/Laws of Nature = cause and effect absolutely necessary or there would be nothing.

"Sound" mainstream science do not believe in the connection between cause and effect, things that act and things that are acted upon. This is false and in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ and therefore nothing can be built upon it. Gods natural laws of the universe is all about cause and effect and if a theory has no regard and breaks these eternal laws of nature without any thought it must be thrown by the wayside. (2 Ne. 2:13–26; D&C 93:30.) Real Science does not begin with sound theoretical mathematics, but with direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships. This is real science. Science is the study of patterns in nature to uncover dependable relationships between causes and effects. As they are confirmed, these relationships lead to formulations of useful “laws” governing the natural world.

If you believe in the relationship of cause and effect, than theoretical science must be thrown out. If not, please explain away the laws of nature. This is a reason why Hawking doesn't believe in miracles (cause and effect).

“Religion believes in miracles, but they are not compatible with science.”-Stephen Hawking

Why are they not compatible? Because the science doesn't believe in cause and effect.

Now compare with an LDS theology perspective. . .

"Among the popular errors of modern times, an opinion prevails that miracles are events which transpire contrary to the laws of nature, that they are effects without a cause. If such is the fact, then, there never has been a miracle, and there never will be one. The laws of nature are the laws of truth. Truth is unchangeable, and independent in its own sphere. A law of nature never has been broken. And it is an absolute impossibility that such law ever should be broken." [Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 1891, pg. 102]

Yet, the whole foundation of theoretical science breaks the laws of nature (effects without cause) and nobody even blinks an eye.

“We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjectures.”~Hannes Alfvén, Nobel Laureate 1970 for his contribution to plasma physics

Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ~Nikola Tesla

Wow, good luck with your life dude. Cheers.

[JK4Woods]

Best Stake President I ever had was a house painter in Topeka, Kansas.

He said house painting is a pretty methodical business and once experienced, its not exciting in any way.

However, he said that while working, he was able to spend hours each day contemplating, reflecting and listening to the whisperings of the spirit.
He was spot on with everything he did. A great leader.

[harakim]

Here is some information about the Church established by Jesus Christ during the New Testament time period:
1 Corinthians 1

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[sandman45]

You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.

Oh they flaunt it alright. Their wives when speaking before them at a fireside or at the MTC or in a stake conference always brag about their worldly achievements and accolades.

[EmmaLee]

You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.

Oh they flaunt it alright. Their wives when speaking before them at a fireside or at the MTC or in a stake conference always brag about their worldly achievements and accolades.

What you say is true, sandman45. We had stake conference just last Sunday, and the 'guest' was a member of the Seventy. Our stake president (who was conducting) spent (and yes, I timed it) 9 full minutes listing this man's "credentials". 9 MINUTES listing his college degrees, highlights from his professional career, and of course, his Church calling pedigree. Every stake conference is this way (regardless of who the stake president is) - every fireside is this way - every devotional is this way. Show me one of these types of meetings (really, anything besides General Conference) that hasn't done this and I will take back everything I've said about this subject. Heaven forbid we just LISTEN to what the speaker has to say, and determine from the SPIRIT if it is of worth. No, we have to have their CV/resume listed for us each and every time because THAT is what is important, THAT is what matters, THAT is what determines whether the person has anything of worth to say. smh

[kittycat51]

You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.

Oh they flaunt it alright. Their wives when speaking before them at a fireside or at the MTC or in a stake conference always brag about their worldly achievements and accolades.

That's the wives. So if I brag about my husband and how awesome he is, that makes him a worldly person? He is the most quiet, humble man I know. He would never say about himself things that I would. Sorry two different things