A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

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Dan
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A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

My Stake President is always talking about becoming a Zion people, and lately he has been talking about DOING not just TALKING about it -yet he has given us no practical starting point or admonitions outside of just being good or seeking for godliness. But when I talk to Priesthood leadership about trying to live this law to the highest degree possible they invariably say " well you probably need to get that cleared with the stake president" isn't it a wicked and slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things?

YES OR NO

If you where wanting to venture out with some kindred spirits to gain the advantages of partial adherence to the principle of the United Order do you think you would need priesthood permission? Why or why not, please explain

thanks in advance -Dan
Last edited by Dan on September 16th, 2009, 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

ShawnC
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by ShawnC »

In all seriousness Dan, you might learn something from the experience of these people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days

They are still trying to "live" the UO.

Shawn

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

ShawnC wrote:n all seriousness Dan, you might learn something from the experience of these people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days

They are still trying to "live" the UO.
Shawn, thanks for your concern, however you have failed to help me fulfill my request in this pole. The "Does Dan need spiritual guidance" pole hasn't been posted yet. :wink:

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tmac
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by tmac »

My answer is that there is no need for permission, authorization or the blessing of priesthood leaders to go out and attempt to "live" something akin to the united order with some kindred spirits. To a large extent, this can be essentially a business decision. In my life, I have all kinds of business relationships, partnerships, joint ventures, etc., and I don't seek, or see the need to seek my priesthood leaders' blessing for everything I do -- business-wise.

But what you could not do is change anything in terms of church organization or unit(s), or anything. In other words, just because you go out and set up a separate community living the united order or LOC or whatever, doesn't mean that you can set up your own ward or branch to do it. That is a priesthood leadership call.

I see nothing -- nothing -- wrong with attempting to set up relationships, arrangements, etc., and "live" that way. The problem(s) will come when people try it, and may succeed to some extent, and then start thinking that they are more pious, etc., and better than other saints. Before you know it, good ol' pride will start entering the picture. I have had some experiences with simply trying to develop a vision and try to lead a community forward in a more self-sufficient direction -- certainly no UO, LOC, or anything like that -- but what I found is that it wasn't long before cracks started to appear in the foundation, and some of the people that were supposed to be cornerstones for the whole venture, etc., were flakier than previously thought, etc. But when I really thought back about that, it should have been obvious that was the case. I know that people will say "it can't be done," blah, blah, blah, but it all depends on the group of people, etc. The reality is, it can and has been done successfully -- just not in the LDS Church -- that I know of.

It does not appear that groups that have chosen to attempt to do it as part of their effort to practice plural marriage, including the FLDS (United Effort Plan) or the T&LLDS (Harmston) have been able to do it very successfully. And, remember, I am not talking about their religious organization here, just about how they "live" in a context like the UO or LOC.

I have been around the Amish and Mennonites enough to know that although they don't live or even attempt to live UO or LOC, many of them come a lot closer to living like Zion than the vast, vast majority of LDS. People always say that any attempt(s) like that will, and have failed, but the reality is they don't know what they're talking about. There is a successful community that still essentially practices the UO at Eskdale, Utah, near the Utah/Nevada border. They belong to a group called the Order of Aaron, that broke off from the Church in early 1900s. Contrary to all kinds of rumors and misinformation, etc., they do not practice polygamy. They are an example of a group that deviated from the doctrine and organization of the Church. But, they are very good people, and I think they have been quite successful at what they do. Setting all the doctrinal and priesthood permission stuff aside, you ought to go talk to a group like that, pick their brains, and learn from their experience(s) before doing it. They're willing to show people what they do, and talk about it. They have a great music program in their school, and each year they put on a big holiday dinner a few weeks before Christmas. They invite outsiders to come, and put on a big music and drama program. But they're willing to talk to outsiders and show them around the place virtually any time, upon request, with a little advance notice. Like they've told me, it's no secret what they're doing, and thy don't have anything to hide. Although I've made a pretty good circle around the Mountain West since then, I grew up in Sanpete County, and I remember the people from Eskdale clear back when I was in junior high school, 30+ years ago. They had a great music program clear back then, and would win all the music festivals, etc. My only point is that I have been aware of them for quite a few years, and aside from people thinking they're "weird" or whatever, I've never heard a bad thing about them, individually or collectively in the whole time I've been aware of them.

There are others, including the Hutterites of Eastern Wyoming, Montana and the prairie provinces of Canada that essentially practice UO, and have done so successfully for many, many years. Although they don't have the fullness of the Gospel, etc., they come much closer to "living" like Zion than we do in the LDS Church. People who say that it can't be done, won't succeed, etc., etc., just don't really know what they're talking about. That sort of venture and organization can and has succeeded -- just not in the LDS Church -- but basic human nature (pride, etc.,) is always a challenge.
Last edited by tmac on September 15th, 2009, 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

sbsion
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by sbsion »

so, are you saying, if we want to go to the Celestial Kingdom, we should try an practice Celestial laws when we are "converted" to them, else we are slothful> Do you have any idea what you are "really saying"?

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ChelC
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by ChelC »

I think a good starting place would be to live that way in your own immediate and extended family. Live simply. Donate your excess - all of your excess. Give more freely of your time and talents to all who stand in need of them without thought of reward. It's really difficult to bring others along with you if you haven't already lead the way.

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ithink
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

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Dan wrote:My Stake President is always talking about becoming a Zion people, and lately he has been talking about DOING not just TALKING about it -yet he has given us no practical starting point or admonitions outside of just being good or seeking for godliness. But when I talk to Priesthood leadership about trying to live this law to the highest degree possible they invariably say " well you probably need to get that cleared with the stake president" isn't it a wicked and slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things?

YES OR NO

If you where wanting to venture out with some kindred spirits to gain the advantages of partial adherence to the principle of the United Order do you think you would need priesthood permission? Why or why not, please explain

thanks in advance -Dan
Are you asking about the United Order, or the Law of Consecration?

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ChelC
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by ChelC »

I thought he was asking about both???

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Darren
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Darren »

The problem with living today via the principles of the Law of Consecration and Stewardship (where the United Order stems from) is that we are fundamentally still a Babylon people. If we enter into Zion we bring Babylon with us, and until we can start right we cannot go right in doing these things.

The purpose of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is to show the starting point. The starting point for the Lord's System is void of Babylon - with a perfect connection to the Lord's Goodness. These two cultures are mixed at this time.

I will begin living the Lord's system by studying and understanding the culture that lived by it previous to the latter-days. I will reject Babylon's system as far as possible, and I will embrace the Lord's system as far as possible, legal and as allowed by our leaders.

And in doing so I will be prepared for the next step as it becomes available at the hands of the Lord's Leadership.

God Bless,
Darren

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LDSNZ
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Post by LDSNZ »

Kiaora Dan,

My knowledge about the UO & LOC is very limited. But I think you should live the way you(s) (& if you're married? Your wife & family) feel is best for you(s). If others are happy to jump on board? Then kool.

Above all else tho, obedience to the commandments of god & keeping covenants, is an essential imperative to your collective & wholistic success.

& thankyou for sharing your thoughts Mac.

Kind regards,

TK

P.S I'd love to live in a such community myself.
Last edited by LDSNZ on September 15th, 2009, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ShawnC
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by ShawnC »

Dan wrote:
ShawnC wrote:n all seriousness Dan, you might learn something from the experience of these people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days

They are still trying to "live" the UO.
Shawn, thanks for your concern, however you have failed to help me fulfill my request in this pole. The "Does Dan need spiritual guidance" pole hasn't been posted yet. :wink:

First of all, it is "Poll" not "Pole".

Second I posted that because I have family members in that organization. They all went there under the guise of being special and called out, and they were all going to live the United Order and God was going to establish Zion among them. I pretty sure none of that happened. There are a lot of people who have had similar desires to live a "higher law". Many of them apostatize while others simply tire.

My suggestion is to check these guys out and see if you can learn things to avoid in your quest.

Shawn

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Carlos
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Carlos »

My answer is no.

But you need not go far to live the UO. UO principles should be the foundation of every home. In our home we hold things in common, we consecrate all goods to the building up of Zion, Babylon is not permitted (TV, inappropriate Vid games, magazines, music, etc), we home school, the family is the center of all our lives, money and wealth is not the motivating foundation of our Zion, there is no debt. Everyone shares in cleaning, cooking, chores. Everyone receives according their needs, their wants are minimal. Hey, it's great.

I'm sure your question is how do you cross over to a non-family community. Like...a ward or stake? Sounds like your stake pres is on the right track. When there is love and compassion within the larger community, the UO mentality expands. A greater number of members do their HT/VT, contribute more generously, are more interested in results than numbers, etc.

I personally would not venture out to a covenant community. I have a Bro in law and sister who tried it with his mom and bros. Doesn't work. Money's always an issue. Money is related to the mark of the beast, it's to pervasive at this time. Some day we'll see how it works in a broader community. Be patient.

Carlos

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

ShawnC wrote:First of all, it is "Poll" not "Pole".
Shawn, thanks for the spelling tip, I'm no good at it, never was probably never will be, just barely finished High School. My mantra when it comes to spelling is what Ben Franklin stated "if you cant spell a word more than two ways you dont have much of an imagination. I like to think of it as part of my genius.

I did read the link that you left and it is sad to see people leave the church like that, I have no intention of trying to live the full UO outside of the priesthood leadership nor do I intend to enter into a full measure of consecration. What I would like to do is, as I stated, gain blessing by partial observance of these principles, and see where it may go from there. We are in interesting times and may need to learn to bind together to make it through, i'm just advocating getting prepared with some practical experience with like minded people.

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

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Carlos wrote:My answer is no.

But you need not go far to live the UO. UO principles should be the foundation of every home. In our home we hold things in common, we consecrate all goods to the building up of Zion, Babylon is not permitted (TV, inappropriate Vid games, magazines, music, etc), we home school, the family is the center of all our lives, money and wealth is not the motivating foundation of our Zion, there is no debt. Everyone shares in cleaning, cooking, chores. Everyone receives according their needs, their wants are minimal. Hey, it's great.

I'm sure your question is how do you cross over to a non-family community. Like...a ward or stake? Sounds like your stake pres is on the right track. When there is love and compassion within the larger community, the UO mentality expands. A greater number of members do their HT/VT, contribute more generously, are more interested in results than numbers, etc.

I personally would not venture out to a covenant community. I have a Bro in law and sister who tried it with his mom and bros. Doesn't work. Money's always an issue. Money is related to the mark of the beast, it's to pervasive at this time. Some day we'll see how it works in a broader community. Be patient.

Carlos

Carlos, I'm envious, sounds like you are a principled on the ball guy, much of my life is the same as yours minus the debt (unfortunately). But dont you mean hasn't instead of doesn't in relation to the covenant community? wont there be a monetary unit in the UO and LOC? Shouldn't we try to overcome our selfish desires now, and isn't that done easier when we face our shortcomings not run from them? Of course Carlos I'm not putting words in you mouth just wondering your thoughts. Thanks for your impute. Dan

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

sbsion wrote:so, are you saying, if we want to go to the Celestial Kingdom, we should try an practice Celestial laws when we are "converted" to them, else we are slothful> Do you have any idea what you are "really saying"?
yep you got it. I'm saying read the post dont read into it.

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

tmac wrote:I see nothing -- nothing -- wrong with attempting to set up relationships, arrangements, etc., and "live" that way. The problem(s) will come when people try it, and may succeed to some extent, and then start thinking that they are more pious, etc., and better than other saints. Before you know it, good ol' pride will start entering the picture. I have had some experiences with simply trying to develop a vision and try to lead a community forward in a more self-sufficient direction -- certainly no UO, LOC, or anything like that -- but what I found is that it wasn't long before cracks started to appear in the foundation, and some of the people that were supposed to be cornerstones for the whole venture, etc., were flakier than previously thought, etc. But when I really thought back about that, it should have been obvious that was the case. I know that people will say "it can't be done," blah, blah, blah, but it all depends on the group of people, etc. The reality is, it can and has been done successfully -- just not in the LDS Church -- that I know of.
tmac, thanks for you lack of Mormon cliché's, it is refreshing to hear peoples personal opinions that reflect and non-judgmental tone. Of course it is possible and it will come to pass, my question for all is really not about permission as much as it is about how to accomplish it, how to overcome pride, and is there a antidote that is right in front of our eyes but that we refuse to see and therefor we continue to suffer in Babylon? just questions -thanks for your reply-Dan

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Dan »

ChelC wrote:I think a good starting place would be to live that way in your own immediate and extended family. Live simply. Donate your excess - all of your excess. Give more freely of your time and talents to all who stand in need of them without thought of reward. It's really difficult to bring others along with you if you haven't already lead the way.
I know that this may seem mean, but I dont think my extended family is ready to start living it and therefor I am not excited about uniting with them yet, so am i excluded because I dont think the timing is right for my family?

thanks for your comments-Dan

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Dan
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

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Darren wrote:The problem with living today via the principles of the Law of Consecration and Stewardship (where the United Order stems from) is that we are fundamentally still a Babylon people. If we enter into Zion we bring Babylon with us, and until we can start right we cannot go right in doing these things.

The purpose of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is to show the starting point. The starting point for the Lord's System is void of Babylon - with a perfect connection to the Lord's Goodness. These two cultures are mixed at this time.

I will begin living the Lord's system by studying and understanding the culture that lived by it previous to the latter-days. I will reject Babylon's system as far as possible, and I will embrace the Lord's system as far as possible, legal and as allowed by our leaders.

And in doing so I will be prepared for the next step as it becomes available at the hands of the Lord's Leadership.

God Bless,
Darren

Darren, nice to hear your comments. So what if the impetus of the latter day Zion is this kind of longing and partial observance that I have been asking about that may lead to the next step you are talking about, do you think that may be an option? Doesnt Zion rise out of Babylon and reject its paradigms and blossoms as a rose in-spite of Babylon still existing?

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Darren
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

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Dan wrote: Darren, nice to hear your comments. So what if the impetus of the latter day Zion is this kind of longing and partial observance that I have been asking about that may lead to the next step you are talking about, do you think that may be an option? Doesnt Zion rise out of Babylon and reject its paradigms and blossoms as a rose in-spite of Babylon still existing?
The rise to the next step is something I am counting on. As I continue to write my book titled, "A guide to Success and Motivation in the Free Enterprise System." At some point Babylon will fall out of favor with the people, perhaps around the time the world elite destroy the US Dollar. And establish a new 100% fiat money and value system controlled by them to try to negate the indepencence of the Free Enterprise System.

We don't need permission from our Church Leaders to live the United Order. That is already set in order by our Anglo/Saxon Culture. The only struggle is when we inform the Government that we have our own culture void of their Empire styled controls. A poor attempt was done in the 1980's with the Township Movement. But we are much more informed today.

I see the change to living by the principles of the Law of Consecration and Stewardship coming very soon. Mostly because the Empire will expose themselves during their next grab for power over the Free Enterprise System.

Yours and Mine are to be ready. Something I am working very hard to do.

God Bless,
Darren

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Jonathan_H
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Jonathan_H »

There is a successful community that still essentially practices the UO at Eskdale, Utah, near the Utah/Nevada border.
I moved from Baker, NV two years ago, which includes Eskdale in its extended community. My wife substitute taught at the high school in Eskdale occasionally. The whole Snake valley is full of wonderful, salt-of-the-Earth type people.

I returned to visit earlier this summer, and was sad to hear that their united order seems to be disintegrating. Inequalities had begun even before I left, and certain sins had occurred that would produce difficulties in any small community. So although I was saddened by the news, I wasn't surprised that their order was breaking down. It was the same old, old story of pride and sin.

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tmac
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by tmac »

Very few things last forever. From what I understand, the Eskdale community has survived (I don't know if past tense is appropriate or not) for close to 100 years. In that kind of time frame, there will always be issues, including comings and goings, etc.

Seems like human nature always enters into the picture . . . . and always will. Unfortunately, for having the fullness of the gospel, Mormons have not be particularly successful working together -- especially in recent history. Obviously, this is more cultural than doctrinal, because our doctrine supports and encourages working together. But the reality is, many cultures (Asians, Hispanics, etc.) have a much better track record of working together than we do. There are probably a number of reasons for this, but basic, selfish human nature, individualism, pride, greed, etc., are all part of the equation.

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Darren
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Darren »

Dan wrote:

Darren, nice to hear your comments. So what if the impetus of the latter day Zion is this kind of longing and partial observance that I have been asking about that may lead to the next step you are talking about, do you think that may be an option? Doesnt Zion rise out of Babylon and reject its paradigms and blossoms as a rose in-spite of Babylon still existing?
Babylon is a parasite. The Lord's Goodness still runs this planet for the most part, it is the corner stone.

The purpose of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is to show us the principles of the Ancient Northern European way to operate by the Lord's Goodness, as our lost tribes of Israel ancestors lived by it, as it was given to them by Jesus Christ at about 42 A.D.

We still remember the ancient Lord's Goodness system, called the Free Enterprise System. At least culturally.

When we grasp the actual scriptures of those folks, and contrast that original Free Enterprise System, with the corrupted version we use today, we will easily rid ourselves of the Babylon parasite, without much change at all. We will rise out of Babylon and reject its darkness, not much of a stretch at all.

Thomas Jefferson taught himself Anglo-Saxon to try to bring forward the Lord's Goodness system of his ancestors. Cleon Skousen mentions this in his book, "The Majesty of God's Law." Bruce Wydner has written the comprehensive study manual for the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel, as those scriptures are being made available on the Internet. We just need to have the drive to look for it.

God Bless,
Darren

temple
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by temple »

In order to establish Zion and live the law of consecration you MUST flee Babylon! It requires the sacrifice of "all earthly things." You CANNOT serve God and Mammon. You cannot hold to Babylon while reaching for heaven. We have let go of Babylon completely and are living the law of consecration and building Zion! The Lord has given us further light and knowledge and we have seen miracles! But He can't teach you the things of heaven if you keep meddling in the affairs of Babylon. You must let go and this is what people just can't do. This is the faith required in order to obtain eternal life!

Finrock
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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by Finrock »

temple wrote:In order to establish Zion and live the law of consecration you MUST flee Babylon! It requires the sacrifice of "all earthly things." You CANNOT serve God and Mammon. You cannot hold to Babylon while reaching for heaven. We have let go of Babylon completely and are living the law of consecration and building Zion! The Lord has given us further light and knowledge and we have seen miracles! But He can't teach you the things of heaven if you keep meddling in the affairs of Babylon. You must let go and this is what people just can't do. This is the faith required in order to obtain eternal life!
Hi temple, good to meet you! :)

How do you let go of Babylon? What does it mean to you to sacrifice "all earthly things"?

Thank you!

-Finrock

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Re: A pole: asking permission to try to live the United Order

Post by EdGoble »

Dan wrote:My Stake President is always talking about becoming a Zion people, and lately he has been talking about DOING not just TALKING about it -yet he has given us no practical starting point or admonitions outside of just being good or seeking for godliness. But when I talk to Priesthood leadership about trying to live this law to the highest degree possible they invariably say " well you probably need to get that cleared with the stake president" isn't it a wicked and slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things?

YES OR NO

If you where wanting to venture out with some kindred spirits to gain the advantages of partial adherence to the principle of the United Order do you think you would need priesthood permission? Why or why not, please explain

thanks in advance -Dan
Why do you want to do something contrary to the current social order in the Church, without commandment or revelation, running before you are sent?

I once wanted to become a Freemason because I was obsessed with it, and because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were. But the Lord forbade it by personal revelation, and my local leaders discouraged me from doing it. Just because early leaders did it didn't justify it for me to go do it.

Why not focus on being perfect in principles that you already can practice? Why not participate in the law of consecration in spirit, by dedicating all your time, talents and means for the building of the Lord's kingdom on HIS timetable,in your calling, in your home teaching, and in your home, and not choose to "run before you are sent." Why not spend your time and means in Temple Work?

The same thing goes with people who are too anxious to live plural marriage before it is restored (if ever). They neither have revelation nor commandment, yet they are obsessed by a certain principle and think that they are justified by running before they are sent. Why? Why not be content with the situation in which we find ourselves and live within the current bounds the Lord has set?

The Lord's timetable is sufficient, and will be sufficient to establish Zion when the word of the Lord will come forth from those with the keys. He doesn't need us to "help" it along to get it started any sooner than the institutional revelation that will call for it at some future time. Our domain is the present. His is the past, present and future. Leave the future to him.

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