New insights from this forum

[larsenb]

First I apologize beforehand if any of this sounds snarky or judgemental or sounds like a personal attack that is not my intent.

Just a little about myself to set context. I am a lifetime member or over 50 years and family has been in church for 11 generations since 1831. I served a mission, sealed with kids and grandkids, been through graduate school at Provo, and live in an almost entirely LDS community. I thought I knew the church well until I happened onto this forum.

Among the people and colleagues that I deal with I know no Trump supporters and no anti vaxers. I had not heard of the call out, I had never heard of a belief in MMP, never heard of the davidic servant. I don't know anyone who believes the lost ten tribes really are isolated someplace waiting to return, most everyone I know believes in evolution and an ancient earth and some degree of climate change. I thought that the common consensus for BOM geography was a spatially limited mesoamerican theory. I had never heard of energy healing. All of this is new to me.

What has been your experience?

Justme are you really Mitt Romney? He has to be the only guy that knows no Trump supporters.

Ha no. I hear rumors of others that have to deal with uncles at family dinners that support Trump. But all the water cooler talk at my office is absolutely anti trump. We day dream of impeachment, or at least count the days till the next election. There might be some others in the office with secret unspoken views but I haven't heard any. And the political makeup is probably 95 percent republican and 100 percent lds.

And why, pray tell, would you and your office mates want to see him impeached?? Russian collusion, obstruction of justice, or what? The Mueller report must have been devastating to your group.

[gkearney]

Well Trump won Utah and it electoral vote so someone in Utah voted for him.

[Chip]

Ha no. I hear rumors of others that have to deal with uncles at family dinners that support Trump. But all the water cooler talk at my office is absolutely anti trump. We day dream of impeachment, or at least count the days till the next election. There might be some others in the office with secret unspoken views but I haven't heard any. And the political makeup is probably 95 percent republican and 100 percent lds.

It's disheartening to hear that Mormons don't like Trump, especially given the alternatives. I really think we've been brainwashed to support only people who ACT pleasantly, no matter their likely level of corruption, and discount people who speak truth but have an edgy demeanor. Trump, aside from Ron Paul, is the ONLY presidential candidate that ever spoke the truth about anything of substance in recent years. The rest were deceivers underneath their well-mannered facades. I know the younger generation is politically retarded, but it's sad to think the church body is becoming so. Maybe since we don't get any talks like Ezra Taft Benson used to deliver, people have just fallen asleep.

[Primary Outcast]

I embarrass my wife when I post stuff on Facebook or say anything at church, so I came here to find others that are my level of crazy. Most people don't want to hear anything outside of what they've always been told.

[larsenb]

I embarrass my wife when I post stuff on Facebook or say anything at church, so I came here to find others that are my level of crazy. Most people don't want to hear anything outside of what they've always been told.

I would say what they've been told or have gleaned from their 'validation sources'. I.e., if you get your news mainly from MSNBC, CNN, the WaPost, NY Times, and the Deseret News, etc., or even Fox News, you will naturally bend toward the predominent political views they espouse.

The DesNews, by-the-way, is essentially an outlet for neocon propoganda (i.e., it gets almost all its 'news' from AP which editorializes in sly and not so sly ways based on their left-leaning, globalist, and certainly anti-Trump biases.

[markharr]

I'm not sure why you think I need popular opinion to validate my beliefs. If I was that weak, I wouldn't be a member of this church. I dont have anything to prove to you

[markharr]

Also this entire thread is based on a false premise.

You can support Trump and believe in the heartland model but not be an anti vaxxer, or believe in callouts, People are complex beings and you are almost always going to be wrong if you try to segregate them into classes based on. beliefs, or anything else. It's a lucifarian tactic actually. The savior looks at the individual.

[larsenb]

I'm not sure why you think I need popular opinion to validate my beliefs. If I was that weak, I wouldn't be a member of this church. I dont have anything to prove to you

What 'you' are you referring to here? Just curious.

[oneClimbs]

This is a fun thread. Ditto on the comment that there isn't a consensus here, there is most certainly NOT but we still continue the conversation and do our best to respect each other's opinions while challenging them if we feel so inclined. I think that if you don't want your opinions challenged, then don't give them.

Any strongly presented opinion I share here I expect to be challenged but that is part of why I enjoy posting here. It's nice to be validated but it is important to be corrected if you are wrong. I don't agree with everyone that has posted in this thread and I'm not going to challenge any of their points because I respect their right to hold those opinions.

I find it difficult to classify myself politically. I typically vote for candidates that I feel are good people who desire to preserve our Constitution. Last presidential election I voted for Darrell Castle and Scott Bradley (the latter I have met and conversed with in person and know he is a good man). While I generally do not like Trump, I have been impressed with many things that he has done, especially in declaring that the US will never be a socialist country.

I've done research on vaccines with information from the CDC and WHO. I've looked at the odds of getting a particular virus, what damage it can do, and the mortality rates. I've read the documentation for the vaccines to determine the odds of adverse reactions, the damage they can do and the mortality rates if applicable. I've looked into the science behind how they are supposed to work and what studies (and the lack of) that have been done to determine their effectiveness. Needless to say, I have not vaccinated any of my kids because I think the risks outweigh the benefits. My parents vaccinated us but I opted out when my next round came at around 14 because I didn't have a good feeling about it (note, I'm not at all scared of needles and I had no access to the internet). I don't consider myself an "anti-vaxxer" just making decisions based on the evidence. We are each going to determine what is or is not an acceptable risk and there will never be a consensus on it as far as I can see.

I don't wait around for "call-outs" or such. Maybe that's how it will go down for some or many, maybe my individual situation could be different, we'll see. The Davidic servant is what some call the archetype of a role that many have served in over time. This archetype plays into the end time events as prophesied by Isaiah but there is controversy on who it could be. It could and probably will be one single individual among the Jews and it may also be a role fulfilled by many others including among the remnant of Jacob. There are many ways I think it could play out but I don't spend time guessing about it because we may not know until after the events unfold.

I don't believe the lost tribes are hiding in an ice cap or underground. The Book of Mormon is a record of a lost tribe. They kept it together for a good 1000 years but then it collapsed and they are now "lost" again. Helaman 3:16 explains how and I think this is what happened with the other tribes as well:

"And they have been handed down from one generation to another by the Nephites, even until they have fallen into transgression and have been murdered, plundered, and hunted, and driven forth, and slain, and scattered upon the face of the earth, and mixed with the Lamanites until they are no more called the Nephites, becoming wicked, and wild, and ferocious, yea, even becoming Lamanites."

The more I've studied about Book of Mormon geography the more I am persuaded that the majority of the events took place in North America instead of Meso-America. I think that most of those cultures are actually people that separated from the Jaredites centuries before the destruction of the core Jaredite civilization which was much further north.

From what I have seen about energy healing, I distance myself from it.

You'll note that the vast majority of things I have listed here are opinions and beliefs rather than deeply held knowledgable convictions. I know that there is a God, that he does give is authority to mortals, that there are spirits that were cast down to earth and crave the honor of mortals, that the Book of Mormon is what it says it is, that Jesus rose from the dead, that God can heal us, that there is a veil, that God has the capacity to know and love us individually, that God is working in the world today, and that man and women were designed to be one in the eternities. I also know that we cannot comprehend all that God can and that he is always worthy of our trust. Everything else I am trying to sort out.

[Primary Outcast]

I embarrass my wife when I post stuff on Facebook or say anything at church, so I came here to find others that are my level of crazy. Most people don't want to hear anything outside of what they've always been told.

I would say what they've been told or have gleaned from their 'validation sources'. I.e., if you get your news mainly from MSNBC, CNN, the WaPost, NY Times, and the Deseret News, etc., or even Fox News, you will naturally bend toward the predominent political views they espouse.

The DesNews, by-the-way, is essentially an outlet for neocon propoganda (i.e., it gets almost all its 'news' from AP which editorializes in sly and not so sly ways based on their left-leaning, globalist, and certainly anti-Trump biases.

The DN has an open survey going right now looking for feedback from their readers. I told them to drop the AP and that I won't read anything "opinion" or "in depth" from them because of their biases.

Help us improve the Deseret News by taking this survey - https://www.deseretnews.com/900061761/h ... urvey.html

[Alaris]

I have a son with mild OCD. When it was time to get his mmr, I received an extremely strong warning by the spirit to avoid that shot at all costs. Fwiw

[JohnnyL]

First I apologize beforehand if any of this sounds snarky or judgemental or sounds like a personal attack that is not my intent.

Just a little about myself to set context. I am a lifetime member or over 50 years and family has been in church for 11 generations since 1831. I served a mission, sealed with kids and grandkids, been through graduate school at Provo, and live in an almost entirely LDS community. I thought I knew the church well until I happened onto this forum.

Among the people and colleagues that I deal with I know no Trump supporters and no anti vaxers. I had not heard of the call out, I had never heard of a belief in MMP, never heard of the davidic servant. I don't know anyone who believes the lost ten tribes really are isolated someplace waiting to return, most everyone I know believes in evolution and an ancient earth and some degree of climate change. I thought that the common consensus for BOM geography was a spatially limited mesoamerican theory. I had never heard of energy healing. All of this is new to me.

What has been your experience?

This OP doesn't sound as snarky or judgemental or as personal attacks at all.

I've been a lifetime member, pre-pioneer Church, even family that settled in Utah. Grew up where I'd see a member in school maybe once a week (including family members).

Jews and Protestants next door, Catholics behind us, minister across the road, a deacon down the road, etc. Military made up a lot of it. Mostly Republican area, some Democrat.

As far as I know: I know lots of Trump supporters, none/ very few against vaccines, very few who don't believe in evolution and ancient earth, most who don't believe in climate change, few who believe in energy healing but more coming along as they experience it. I didn't learn about energy healing until the second time around, when God led me there for needed healing after losing my conscience to OTC allergy pills and many other problems (having passed it up as something weird and not really understandable the first time around).

I've worked with mostly non-LDS, many different nationalities, with even fewer LDS clients. I'm not really a fan of Utah LDS culture.

I don't care about "the call out", the Davidic servant, MMP's, and a whole bunch of other topics that are beyond weird hobbies overtaking gospel understanding. Common consensus is a spatially limited Mesoamerican theory.

I still learn lots here, but there are still plenty of topics that have been rarely or never discussed on this board. If you read and listen, you'll hear interesting things you find out more about.

Most people do not want their pretty petty lives disrupted. They're "happy enough".
It is interesting to me how much of a grip American government and culture brainwashing has on people, especially members, and how unwilling they are to truly study things out with faith and be open to truth. (Of course, it seems that many who do, end up in the deep end and don't swim that well, though sometimes things happen in steps and phases.)

Anyone who hasn't seen/ doesn't see that typical and traditional American cultural lifestyle is unsustainable, is brainwashed, IMO.

[Thinker]

...But all the water cooler talk at my office is absolutely anti trump. We day dream of impeachment, or at least count the days till the next election. There might be some others in the office with secret unspoken views but I haven't heard any. And the political makeup is probably 95 percent republican and 100 percent lds.

Sounds like you all have been believing whatever news is thrown your way and succumb to herd mentality. I don’t consider myself a “Trump” supporter - I believe he was selected and is just playing a less obvious roll in global goals. One clue that all presidents have been puppets to some degree is how with each, there’s been increasing support of stealing Palestine/Israel - “Republican” or “Democrat.” That’s not to say Trump hasn’t pointed out “political correct” or other insanity. It’s not all-or-nothing.

JustMe, i have appreciated some of your perspectives. What I have found disturbing in some of your comments is herd mentality toward things that are unfounded logically and dangerous.

[shadow]

I think the anti-Vaxer movement is bunk, and believe it is actually a sin not to have your children vaccinated and you end up being the cause of their death or if they are incapacitated in some terrible way by preventable disease.

A sin?? Interesting. Maybe you can explain your thought process a bit more because to me, speaking of bunk, it sounds bunk.

[EdGoble]

I think the anti-Vaxer movement is bunk, and believe it is actually a sin not to have your children vaccinated and you end up being the cause of their death or if they are incapacitated in some terrible way by preventable disease.

A sin?? Interesting. Maybe you can explain your thought process a bit more because to me, speaking of bunk, it sounds bunk.

It is self evident in my opinion. I already described it above about why it is self-evident. If through your negligence and ignorance because of your heeding a non-scientific, non-verified conspiracy theory from questionable individuals, and you cause the death or damage to your child, you have sinned in my opinion, because of that negligence. Furthermore, people have a duty to protect society in general from preventable disease. Parents have been given charge over their children and are expected to protect them from any and all possible hurt. I know this is a strong opinion, but this is how I feel about anti-Vaxer movement and politics in general. I will not condemn people individually or say they are sinners to their face or anything, or judge them individually. I just make a general statement of a general feeling I have. If you have another opinion, then you have another opinion.

[larsenb]

I embarrass my wife when I post stuff on Facebook or say anything at church, so I came here to find others that are my level of crazy. Most people don't want to hear anything outside of what they've always been told.

I would say what they've been told or have gleaned from their 'validation sources'. I.e., if you get your news mainly from MSNBC, CNN, the WaPost, NY Times, and the Deseret News, etc., or even Fox News, you will naturally bend toward the predominent political views they espouse.

The DesNews, by-the-way, is essentially an outlet for neocon propoganda (i.e., it gets almost all its 'news' from AP which editorializes in sly and not so sly ways based on their left-leaning, globalist, and certainly anti-Trump biases.

The DN has an open survey going right now looking for feedback from their readers. I told them to drop the AP and that I won't read anything "opinion" or "in depth" from them because of their biases.

Help us improve the Deseret News by taking this survey - https://www.deseretnews.com/900061761/h ... urvey.html

I just got around to taking this survey and discovered it was closed. Ah well. But the DN editors certainly know what I think, having tried to communicate w/them for years. I just hope the survey reflected my views, at least to a significant degree.

[larsenb]

I think the anti-Vaxer movement is bunk, and believe it is actually a sin not to have your children vaccinated and you end up being the cause of their death or if they are incapacitated in some terrible way by preventable disease.

A sin?? Interesting. Maybe you can explain your thought process a bit more because to me, speaking of bunk, it sounds bunk.

It is self evident in my opinion. I already described it above about why it is self-evident. If through your negligence and ignorance because of your heeding a non-scientific, non-verified conspiracy theory from questionable individuals, and you cause the death or damage to your child, you have sinned in my opinion, because of that negligence. Furthermore, people have a duty to protect society in general from preventable disease. Parents have been given charge over their children and are expected to protect them from any and all possible hurt. I know this is a strong opinion, but this is how I feel about anti-Vaxer movement and politics in general. I will not condemn people individually or say they are sinners to their face or anything, or judge them individually. I just make a general statement of a general feeling I have. If you have another opinion, then you have another opinion.

The problem with your stance expressed, above, and from my point of view, is an apparent willingness to ignore the negative evidence against immunization/vaccination processes, which is voluminous, and that the claims for these processes are many times (and some could say, never) not really backed up by valid scientific testing.

Also, there is the valid accusation that forced medicating is or could be abused, and violates the sanctity of individual freedom. One only has to remember Bill Gates' recorded comment about how vaccinations could help keep the population down to 6 billion; even if taken out of context, the comment is telling (see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51184&start=30#p923419 ; though I've heard the actual recording and remember or missremember him saying something more direct).

[shadow]

I think the anti-Vaxer movement is bunk, and believe it is actually a sin not to have your children vaccinated and you end up being the cause of their death or if they are incapacitated in some terrible way by preventable disease.

A sin?? Interesting. Maybe you can explain your thought process a bit more because to me, speaking of bunk, it sounds bunk.

It is self evident in my opinion. I already described it above about why it is self-evident. If through your negligence and ignorance because of your heeding a non-scientific, non-verified conspiracy theory from questionable individuals, and you cause the death or damage to your child, you have sinned in my opinion, because of that negligence. Furthermore, people have a duty to protect society in general from preventable disease. Parents have been given charge over their children and are expected to protect them from any and all possible hurt. I know this is a strong opinion, but this is how I feel about anti-Vaxer movement and politics in general. I will not condemn people individually or say they are sinners to their face or anything, or judge them individually. I just make a general statement of a general feeling I have. If you have another opinion, then you have another opinion.

Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

[EdGoble]

The problem with your stance expressed, above, and from my point of view, is an apparent willingness to ignore the negative evidence against immunization/vaccination processes, which is voluminous, and that the claims for these processes are many times (and some could say, never) not really backed up by valid scientific testing.

Also, there is the valid accusation that forced medicating is or could be abused, and violates the sanctity of individual freedom. One only has to remember Bill Gates' recorded comment about how vaccinations could help keep the population down to 6 billion; even if taken out of context, the comment is telling (see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51184&start=30#p923419 ; though I've heard the actual recording and remember or missremember him saying something more direct).

I'm a little surprised that this is where you stand on this, since you are very science-friendly in other things, with very informed opinions on them.
That's ok.
I didn't get into this thread to debate this particular thing.
Actually no. Just because there are indeed negative reactions to something that is broadly applied to society in general doesn't mean that those negative reactions justify ignoring the overwhelming good it has brought to society.

Now, on climate change, I am entirely there with probably most on this forum, because of scientific abuse in that area. The truth of Anti-Vax thing, as I say, is well established scientifically, and there is much less of a reason that some sort of nefarious thing would be behind it than with climate change.

[EdGoble]

Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

[larsenb]

The problem with your stance expressed, above, and from my point of view, is an apparent willingness to ignore the negative evidence against immunization/vaccination processes, which is voluminous, and that the claims for these processes are many times (and some could say, never) not really backed up by valid scientific testing.

Also, there is the valid accusation that forced medicating is or could be abused, and violates the sanctity of individual freedom. One only has to remember Bill Gates' recorded comment about how vaccinations could help keep the population down to 6 billion; even if taken out of context, the comment is telling (see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51184&start=30#p923419 ; though I've heard the actual recording and remember or missremember him saying something more direct).

I'm a little surprised that this is where you stand on this, since you are very science-friendly in other things, with very informed opinions on them.
That's ok.
I didn't get into this thread to debate this particular thing.
Actually no. Just because there are indeed negative reactions to something that is broadly applied to society in general doesn't mean that those negative reactions justify ignoring the overwhelming good it has brought to society.

Now, on climate change, I am entirely there with probably most on this forum, because of scientific abuse in that area. The truth of Anti-Vax thing, as I say, is well established scientifically, and there is much less of a reason that some sort of nefarious thing would be behind it than with climate change.

I try to be fact based and logical. I've also moved into more of an apocolyptic mind-frame, and have good evidence to back up this stance . . . . including ploys undertaken w/vaccines, etc.

[shadow]

Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

[gkearney]

Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

Well I’ll answer. If you have a child with a known adverse reactions to a particular vaccine or has a medical condition which prevents the use of vaccines such as lukemmia and you proceeded to administer that vaccine anyway then that would be a sin. It would also be medical malpractice as well

[shadow]

Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

Well I’ll answer. If you have a child with a known adverse reactions to a particular vaccine or has a medical condition which prevents the use of vaccines such as lukemmia and you proceeded to administer that vaccine anyway then that would be a sin. It would also be medical malpractice as well

In most cases of adverse reactions to vaccines there are no known underlying problems. A healthy child gets a shot and the next day the child is dead. It happens more than advertised.

[AGStacker]

One thing your going to find here is that there is no consensus here at all.

I'm a liberal labor Democrat, I can't stand Trump, I don't vote for or support fascist. That said I am likely the most liberal, politically, poster you are likely going to find on these forums. I try to prove that not everyone on the "left" are a bunch of screaming abortion promoting homosexuals that some here would have you believe.

I am perfectly willing to believe that evolution was the means by which God created life on this earth. I believe the earth and life on it is millions of years old and that the Hebrew telling of Adam and Eve are allegorical in nature and not literal. I think the climate is controlled by physical laws which God himself understands perfectly and which even he must live by. The same is true for the movements of the planets and stars and other physical manifestations of the universe. God is not a magician nor does he conspire to confuse his children by deliberately making the world and the universe incomprehensible to them.

I think that the ten tribes are scattered across the world's population but I do not think they live in a hollow earth, on the sun or any other such fanciful place. I do not think there will ever be a call out, such is the creation of a frenzied imagination of a few people some of whom have been taken advantage of by those seeking to make a quick buck. (Priestcraft anyone?)

I think that vaccines, like all medicines, can have negative effects on some small number of person they are given to but on the whole they protect us from diseases that have tormented man for millennia.

There is no common consensus as to the geography of the Book of Mormon and proposal run the gambit from limited to hemispheric geographies and even those that are not placed in the Americas at all. In the end where or how the events took place is not as important as the lessons we can take from the book itself.

Energy healing is the belief that the body has an energy field which can be manipulated to improve mental and physical health by means of another. (the practitioner) It has it origins in east asian traditional medical practices. It has become fashionable in some circles of late both with in and outside of the Church. It is a sort of "New Age" practice. So long as one does not rely on it exclusively in time of medical need I see little harm in it.

By the way I am 61 years old a member of a family that bridges across the two main branches of the restoration (LDS and RLDS) I grew up in Maine an Atlantic Canada and have lived and worked around the world including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mtaylasia, Canada, South Africa, Denmark, the Netherland, and Sweden.

How is the President a fascist? The Left has become unhinged and are the real fascists. They are always trying to stop the Right from speaking.