Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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Jesef
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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endlessismyname wrote: January 31st, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jesef wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm I wonder why the Prophets/Seers/Revelators can't get a revelation or vision to settle the matter?
I don't want to be rude, but that's just lazy thinking. The logical end of what you're saying is "why can't a prophet get a revelation about anything they want to whenever they want to?" Or in other words, "why can't a prophet be God?"

God reveals what he wants to, when he wants to, to whomever he wants to. Full stop.
No offense taken. I think it’s lazy too. But why haven’t they had a bona fide “thus saith the Lord” revelation or vision in like 100 years now? I mean we go through the nauseatingly repetitive motion of sustaining them specifically by the grandiose titles of Prophets (prophesy), Seers (see visions), & Revelators (receive revelations), do we not, like 4-5 times per year?

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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Joseph knew

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


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Last edited by I AM on January 31st, 2019, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Nephite's Migration to the Promised Land


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mirkwood
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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Jesef wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm I wonder why the Prophets/Seers/Revelators can't get a revelation or vision to settle the matter?
Because it doesn't matter.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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mirkwood wrote: February 1st, 2019, 8:22 am
Jesef wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm I wonder why the Prophets/Seers/Revelators can't get a revelation or vision to settle the matter?
Because it doesn't matter.
Or because the test of faith is far more important than the knowledge of things as they were. Let's face it, God could reveal all things to us now and why not? I mean it would frustrate his purposes and kind of render moot the whole purpose of mortality but besides that I see no reason why not...

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


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Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

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larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


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Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
I agree and disagree. While confirmation bias may prevent one from discovering the truth it is not a given. If we all guessed at random with no other requirement some would be correct. At the end of the day if we don't already know, to the exclusion of doubt, then I don't think we are going to without more light and knowledge. Joseph Smith said they landed in Chile but I don't automatically believe or disbelieve him. Too many wonky facts to make for a clear consensus.

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by larsenb »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:51 pm
larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
I agree and disagree. While confirmation bias may prevent one from discovering the truth it is not a given. If we all guessed at random with no other requirement some would be correct. At the end of the day if we don't already know, to the exclusion of doubt, then I don't think we are going to without more light and knowledge. Joseph Smith said they landed in Chile but I don't automatically believe or disbelieve him. Too many wonky facts to make for a clear consensus.
My whole point is that not following a logical methodology is rather silly and like stabbing into the dark. Following what the actual Book of Mormon says about its geography, etc., provides the logical starting point for any serious investigation of its possible geography.

And you seem to forget that the Lord rewards people who do everything they can to figure things out in their minds from the evidence at hand. Ignoring the 'evidence' provided by the book itself, is silly in the extreme . . . . imsho. Do you think the Lord will ignore and not honor this kind of approach? I do.

Also, if JS said anything about a Chilean landing, I doubt his statement was anything more than speculation in his own mind. Are you aware of the Mayan, etc., annals that aver that they were originally organized in 7 tribes (Book of Mormon mentions this about 3 times), and that they came to this land in ship(s) from the west from a land they called Civan Tula or Civan Tulan, which interpreted is: "a land of abundance located in a ravine"?
Last edited by larsenb on February 1st, 2019, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by larsenb »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 31st, 2019, 3:09 pm . . . . . . . . I took a ton of heat on these boards for propagating the truth about 9/11 because of the implications of what the truth meant and now the same thing is happening with respect to church history, the B of A and B of M. :(
I think you're mixing apples and oranges to a large degree regarding 9/11 truth and the truth of the JS restoration and the Book of Mormon.

The first deals wholly with eyewitness testimony, strong circumstantial and physical evidence and finally, scientific law. The second was influenced by powers from a higher realm, largely outside of our 5 senses, though this kind of 'Spiritual input' does impinge on our 5 senses in varioius ways.

What is missing in your more recent posts, for me, is any affirmation you might still harbor about JS and the Book of Mormon. What is your current testimony about these things?

I had crafted a much better response than the above, but just as I was about to save, my PC automatically rebooted due to a brown-out, or something. I HATE when that happens. The agony of delete strikes again. :x

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 1:22 pm
SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:51 pm
larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
I agree and disagree. While confirmation bias may prevent one from discovering the truth it is not a given. If we all guessed at random with no other requirement some would be correct. At the end of the day if we don't already know, to the exclusion of doubt, then I don't think we are going to without more light and knowledge. Joseph Smith said they landed in Chile but I don't automatically believe or disbelieve him. Too many wonky facts to make for a clear consensus.
My whole point is that not following a logical methodology is rather silly and like stabbing into the dark. Following what the actual Book of Mormon says about its geography, etc., provides the logical starting point for any serious investigation of its possible geography.

And you seem to forget that the Lord rewards people who do everything they can to figure things out in their minds from the evidence at hand. Ignoring the 'evidence' provided by the book itself, is silly in the extreme . . . . imsho. Do you think the Lord will ignore and not honor this kind of approach? I do.

Also, if JS said anything about a Chilean landing, I doubt his statement was anything more than speculation in his own mind. Are you aware of the Mayan, etc., annals that aver that they were originally organized in 7 tribes (Book of Mormon mentions this about 3 times), and that they came to this land in ship(s) from the west from a land they called Civan Tula or Civan Tulan, which interpreted is: "a land of abundance located in a ravine"?
Not aware but then it doesn't really interest me much either. The glory of God is intelligence but the answer to a historical mystery doesn't really carry weight beyond the mystery itself. It isn't like by solving this mystery you will be great at knowing things in the eternities.


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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by larsenb »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: February 1st, 2019, 3:26 pm
larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 1:22 pm
SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:51 pm
larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm

Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
I agree and disagree. While confirmation bias may prevent one from discovering the truth it is not a given. If we all guessed at random with no other requirement some would be correct. At the end of the day if we don't already know, to the exclusion of doubt, then I don't think we are going to without more light and knowledge. Joseph Smith said they landed in Chile but I don't automatically believe or disbelieve him. Too many wonky facts to make for a clear consensus.
My whole point is that not following a logical methodology is rather silly and like stabbing into the dark. Following what the actual Book of Mormon says about its geography, etc., provides the logical starting point for any serious investigation of its possible geography.

And you seem to forget that the Lord rewards people who do everything they can to figure things out in their minds from the evidence at hand. Ignoring the 'evidence' provided by the book itself, is silly in the extreme . . . . imsho. Do you think the Lord will ignore and not honor this kind of approach? I do.

Also, if JS said anything about a Chilean landing, I doubt his statement was anything more than speculation in his own mind. Are you aware of the Mayan, etc., annals that aver that they were originally organized in 7 tribes (Book of Mormon mentions this about 3 times), and that they came to this land in ship(s) from the west from a land they called Civan Tula or Civan Tulan, which interpreted is: "a land of abundance located in a ravine"?
Not aware but then it doesn't really interest me much either. The glory of God is intelligence but the answer to a historical mystery doesn't really carry weight beyond the mystery itself. It isn't like by solving this mystery you will be great at knowing things in the eternities.
I'm just one of those (I work in science) who is fascinated by the topic. As more physical/circumstantial evidence comes forth it will have the effect of piquing the interest of many others who ordinarily wouldn't give the topic the time of day.

And this interest has absolutely nothing to do w/knowledge of the eternities, per se; though w/those who are brought into the fold of Christ because of this developing information, it could have everything to do w/their new course of action leading to "knowing things in the eternities".

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by larsenb »

Thanks for the links. Excellent information, now stored on my PC, maybe never to be viewed again. ;)

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Jesef
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Jesef »

How about this map? Just kidding... but it is what it is.

Image

Full article detailing the history of the Vernal Holley map:
https://wheatandtares.org/2017/05/18/wa ... u-covered/

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by I AM »

larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
-------------------------

Actually, I haven't even read ANYTHING posted in this thread.
I just thought I'd quickly find a map that showed that the Book of Mormon lands where in those areas because that's what I believe.
Now that I take a closer look at this map, I do not agree with some things.
Like for one, the location of the "narrow neck of land". etc.

I saw a video in 1992 put out by "Study Tape" ? called "Cumorah Nephite Land", and
because of this thread, I got it out yesterday and took a quick look.
and by the scriptures, ALL the scriptures in the Book of Mormon that have to do with this,
and by using things that Joseph Smith had said, and all the scriptures that talk about the geography and directions - N.S.E.W., he shows and proves that this is where the Book of Mormon lands are, in the U.S..
------------------------------------

here is something I saw a few years ago.

https://youtu.be/aH0SYG6OQXA?t=27202

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by larsenb »

I AM wrote: February 1st, 2019, 4:57 pm
larsenb wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Image
Where to start with this one. Unfortunately, for those who put this together, they've ignored the number one rule for Book of Mormon geographical investigation. They've got a location, now they try to fit Book of Mormon geographical place names to it. Ain't the way its done, if you are at all serious about the topic.

First thing you need to do is an exhaustive analysis of what the actual Book of Mormon says abouts it geography, travel times, directions, etc. That should be your map hypothesis. THEN you look around for a best fit from actual, existing geography.

To understand this methodology, you should be encouraged to read Ric Hauck's book: Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and or A Compelling Geographic Model of the Book of Mormon by Andersen, Hauck, Smith, Stoddard and Brunsdale.

Unfortunately, anyone who does not use this type of methdology, will be forever blowing smoke and arm waving. This type of activity DOES attract a certain segment of the LDS population, but it CERTAINLY, won't attract hardly any serious investigator outside of our community.
-------------------------

Actually, I haven't even read ANYTHING posted in this thread.
I just thought I'd quickly find a map that showed that the Book of Mormon lands where in those areas because that's what I believe.
Now that I take a closer look at this map, I do not agree with some things.
Like for one, the location of the "narrow neck of land". etc.

I saw a video in 1992 put out by "Study Tape" ? called "Cumorah Nephite Land", and
because of this thread, I got it out yesterday and took a quick look.
and by the scriptures, ALL the scriptures in the Book of Mormon that have to do with this,
and by using things that Joseph Smith had said, and all the scriptures that talk about the geography and directions - N.S.E.W., he shows and proves that this is where the Book of Mormon lands are, in the U.S..
------------------------------------

here is something I saw a few years ago.

https://youtu.be/aH0SYG6OQXA?t=27202
If you ever really start digging into the subject you should seriously regard the methodology used by investigators such as Ric Hauck. Once you understand what they are doing, it will be a good standard to determine if the producers of the "Study Tape', or those like them, have been equally as rigorous.

One last point that I've made in many threads like this, is that Dr. John Lund has done an excellent job in determining that Joseph Smith did in fact write and was responsible for the TImes and Seasons lead editorials where he sites Meso American sites, first popularly catalogued by John Lloyd Stephens, as the likely region of most of the Book of Mormon narrative. The book is: Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, 2012.

I've yet to see anything but highly superficial critiques of Lund's study . . . .critiques that don't hold water.

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by BeNotDeceived »

I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm Image
Charles Hapgood advocated the Earth crust displacement theory in a book entitled The Path of the Poles. Hapgood supported this theory with geomagnetic and carbon dated evidence.

In a book entitled When the Sky Fell, Rose and Rand Flem-Ath also advocate the Earth crust displacement theory, with additional geological and archeological evidence. Both of these works conclude that the North Pole was located in the Yukon, at 63° N 135° W, approximately 80,000 to100,000 years ago.

This is about 250 miles Northeast of the axis point for the line of ancient sites at 59° 42' N 139° 17' W. It is interesting to note that some of the heaviest remaining glaciations in all of North America is on the Southeastern coast of Alaska, surrounding Yakutat (see 'Geographic Geometry - A New Look at An Old Design').

Used for educational purposes only.
The Equator 12,500 Years Ago? cfapps7865 Published on May 24, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpNI2...
Moon size impact perhaps to knock the Earth of its axis :?:

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by endlessQuestions »

Jesef wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:17 pm
endlessismyname wrote: January 31st, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jesef wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm I wonder why the Prophets/Seers/Revelators can't get a revelation or vision to settle the matter?
I don't want to be rude, but that's just lazy thinking. The logical end of what you're saying is "why can't a prophet get a revelation about anything they want to whenever they want to?" Or in other words, "why can't a prophet be God?"

God reveals what he wants to, when he wants to, to whomever he wants to. Full stop.
No offense taken. I think it’s lazy too. But why haven’t they had a bona fide “thus saith the Lord” revelation or vision in like 100 years now? I mean we go through the nauseatingly repetitive motion of sustaining them specifically by the grandiose titles of Prophets (prophesy), Seers (see visions), & Revelators (receive revelations), do we not, like 4-5 times per year?
I really, truly hear you. This has been a major stumbling block for me.

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Jesef
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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Jesef »

BeNotDeceived wrote: February 2nd, 2019, 3:55 pm
I AM wrote: January 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm Image
Charles Hapgood advocated the Earth crust displacement theory in a book entitled The Path of the Poles. Hapgood supported this theory with geomagnetic and carbon dated evidence.

In a book entitled When the Sky Fell, Rose and Rand Flem-Ath also advocate the Earth crust displacement theory, with additional geological and archeological evidence. Both of these works conclude that the North Pole was located in the Yukon, at 63° N 135° W, approximately 80,000 to100,000 years ago.

This is about 250 miles Northeast of the axis point for the line of ancient sites at 59° 42' N 139° 17' W. It is interesting to note that some of the heaviest remaining glaciations in all of North America is on the Southeastern coast of Alaska, surrounding Yakutat (see 'Geographic Geometry - A New Look at An Old Design').

Used for educational purposes only.
The Equator 12,500 Years Ago? cfapps7865 Published on May 24, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpNI2...
Moon size impact perhaps to knock the Earth of its axis :?:
Bring it on. We’ll see what actually happens in real time.

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Gideon »

endlessismyname wrote: January 31st, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jesef wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm I wonder why the Prophets/Seers/Revelators can't get a revelation or vision to settle the matter?
I don't want to be rude, but that's just lazy thinking. The logical end of what you're saying is "why can't a prophet get a revelation about anything they want to whenever they want to?" Or in other words, "why can't a prophet be God?"

God reveals what he wants to, when he wants to, to whomever he wants to. Full stop.
We can all get our own answer to this question.

4 And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.
(3 Ne. 16:4)

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Re: Church releases new gospel topic essay on Book of Mormon Geography

Post by I AM »

I believe the Book of Mormon lands are in this "choice land" - the U. S.,
and agree with him in this video.

"The "promised land" of The Book of Mormon is the same land as the U.S.A. ---
located primarily in the Heartland of America"

and this point
https://youtu.be/aH0SYG6OQXA?t=836

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inho
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Changes in the “Book of Mormon Geography” Gospel Topics Entry

Post by inho »

Church has made changes to the BoM Geography Gospel Topic released in January.
A nice summary of the changes here: Why Did the Church Change the “Book of Mormon Geography” Gospel Topics Entry?

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Re: Changes in the “Book of Mormon Geography” Gospel Topics Entry

Post by endlessQuestions »

inho wrote: March 2nd, 2019, 1:24 pm Church has made changes to the BoM Geography Gospel Topic released in January.
A nice summary of the changes here: Why Did the Church Change the “Book of Mormon Geography” Gospel Topics Entry?
Interesting. I personally wonder why they released anything in the first place. Without new revelation, it doesn't seem like there's much to say.

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