Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space?

[Lone Star Patriot]

I love this topic, although I'm not sure why. It sure is fun though.

Anyway, I heard an excellent program that was broadcast in 1996 I believe, by Bill Cooper. He has a very interesting discussion on the astronaut's performance in 1/6th earth gravity. Using the advertised weight of their space suits, according to NASA, combined with the weight of the astronauts, in 1/6th gravity they should have weighed around 60 pounds. Many predicted that they would be able to jump several feet, climb ladders with only the use of their hands, etc, etc, etc... He also spent a great deal of time discussing how NASA emphasized the "bulky" nature of their space suits.

Anyway, here is the link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7869&hl=en

Again, there has been some very interesting discussions about the evidence that shows we did or did not go to the moon. Like Cowell, I am pretty much on the side that we did not go to the moon, but the reason that has the most influence are the words of Joseph Fielding Smith.

Not to confuse things, but I understand that one of the missions to the moon placed a reflector, that is used to this day by researchers at McDonald Observatory in Texas I believe, or maybe somewhere else. Anyway, I think they bounce a laser off the reflector to measure the distance between the earth and the moon. Does anyone know anything about that, or can anyone provide any information how they put the reflector there, and when they might have done it?

Thanks to everyone for providing such interesting food for thought.

[skmo]

To the initial question: Yes, he was wrong. No big deal. Apostles have been wrong before, so have prophets. It doesn't mean they aren't called of God, or divinely inspired, or, when so moved by the Holy Spirit, able to give us God's commands, but they also are human and therefore prone to make mistakes.

[Lone Star Patriot]

Skmo,

I think Cowell had it right when he made this statement.

It is the whole point of what the conspirators do and why. Hence it is the whole point to this thread. When you can't see the truth, they win, we lose. The prophet spoke the truth. The rest of the world, including myself until recently, chooses to use cognitive dissonance to explain away the prophets words (He made a mistake, it is his personal opinion, he is only human...)

I also think that the discussion by Bill Cooper on the moon's gravity is very interesting. There does seem to be a pile of evidence that is mounting in favor of people not going to the moon. It is also possible that Joseph Fielding Smith may have been inspired to make that comment. It is very specific and very clear.

LDS Conservative also made some interesting points on the words of the prophets. It may be that we are the ones who have difficulty in understanding their meaning. I know for a long time I thought President Benson spoke his personal opinion on politics. It wasn't until recently that I came to realize that he was right on the mark. It was me that had the problem initially, which is why the words of President Benson seemed strange and foreign to me.

[armedtotheteeth]

A funny thing happened on the way to the moon it the best doc I’ve seen on the subject. I am interested to see what those who believe we really went think about the footage of the astronauts staging the pictures in their space cabin in low orbit, when they were meant to be landing on the moon a few hours later.

[shadow]

Mark's reaction to the moon landing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f_DPrSEOEo

[DOZ]

To the initial question: Yes, he was wrong. No big deal. Apostles have been wrong before, so have prophets. It doesn't mean they aren't called of God, or divinely inspired, or, when so moved by the Holy Spirit, able to give us God's commands, but they also are human and therefore prone to make mistakes.

Eeeeesh! I believe the apostles. When they speak, I hear, listen, obey and Believe!
It would be unsettling (for me) to think that my prophet is wrong ...wow, just the thought sends chills!
If the prophet would specify that it is his personnel opinion , ok, but this is not what he said.

mho

[mchlwise]

I was thinking about this issue this morning when I was in the temple (I'm not claiming any special "revelation", that's just where I was when I was thinking about it) and I realized something I hadn't considered before.

When President Smith says:

The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.

it is quite possible that his use of the word "man" is intended to mean "mankind" and not "any man at all". As in "it was never intended that mankind should go there", referring to us generally. What I would take from that interpretation is that there is nothing he stated that would preclude certain individuals from exploring or being there, but that humans generally won't have a presence there. There will not be colonies of human beings on the moon, though occasional explorations might happen.

From this perspective, I don't see any contradiction between the prophet's words and things happening exactly as NASA said they did.

Personally, I don't like to take the "he was speaking as a man" or "those were his personal views" or "he was wrong" approach. Truth is truth, and it can all be in harmony - as long as we fully understand and have the right perspective to see it.

[creator]

it is quite possible that his use of the word "man" is intended to mean "mankind" and not "any man at all".

The problem with that reasoning is that perhaps you forget that he also said "We will never get a man into space"... "This earth is man's sphere" ... "it was never intended that man should go there"

and then the big whammy!!! "You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."

That's nothing like, hey, this is my personal opinion... it's like he's saying this is a for sure thing that I am 100% certain about.

There may be a lot more truth than we understand to this 'Van Allen Radiation Belt' that could be the reason why man won't get beyond the earth's sphere as JFS stated.

[armedtotheteeth]

That’s my theory exactly. I believe everything in our sphere is up until the VARB I. It’s not considered outer space till you get past the VARB I and II. You can be in low orbit, and that’s it! That’s within our sphere. I believe, not doctrine here, just my feelings, that the VARB’s are mans description of godly veils. A spiritual being who god sees fit to pass can, NASA cant!

[shadow]

it is quite possible that his use of the word "man" is intended to mean "mankind" and not "any man at all".

The problem with that reasoning is that perhaps you forget that he also said "We will never get a man into space"... "This earth is man's sphere" ... "it was never intended that man should go there"

and then the big whammy!!! "You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."

Where can we verify the exact wording of then apostle JFS's moon comment? I see that jonnybreeves quoted it (the first post of this thread) but he didn't say where he got the quote from.
Just curious.

[mchlwise]

The problem with that reasoning is that perhaps you forget that he also said "We will never get a man into space"...

What exactly did he mean by "space"?

I don't pretend to know, but it's an interesting question.

[Mark]

Where can we verify the exact wording of then apostle JFS's moon comment? I see that jonnybreeves quoted it (the first post of this thread) but he didn't say where he got the quote from.
Just curious.

Thats my boy! I keep seeing quotes like this one from past general authorities tossed around at meetings like a Stake Conference etc with no written and approved verification that the apostle even said what He is supposed to have said. Who was at the meeting and recorded the quote? Was the message published and approved by Elder Smith? The RKY group is famous for throwing around supposed quotes from church authorities at various leadership meetings etc. but often have no verification to back those quotes up other than Heresay. Thats how Mormon folklore gets its legs.

[DOZ]

This is what I have found.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 402AAdzysL

[Mark]

Well that takes care of it for me. Some bird named Penguine wrote it in Yahoo answers. It must be true.

[DOZ]

Well that takes care of it for me. Some bird named Penguine wrote it in Yahoo answers. It must be true.

ok...now you made me laugh
but you're right...its gotta be true

I still can't find "real food" though
I'll keep trying...maybe I'll find something...who knows???

[Mark]

Just playin around Doz. I would like to see some kind of official verification though. As the gipper said: Trust, but Verify.

[creator]

Just playin around Doz. I would like to see some kind of official verification though. As the gipper said: Trust, but Verify.

Where can we verify the exact wording of then apostle JFS's moon comment?

Most likely you'll find this in the records of the Church, so who wants to go to the Church archives/library and make a photo copy of this talk and post it on the forum? (too bad lundaek's not in SLC anymore, he was very good at doing that)

Shouldn't be too hard to find, the reference is: May 14, 1961 - Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith announces to stake conference in Honolulu

I found another reference from Joseph Fielding Smith regarding this topic, with a verified source:

"The people in our land, as well as in foreign lands, are all going crazy over getting to the moon, setting up headquarters there, and so forth. I think the Lord sits in the heavens and laughs at our foolishness. He does not have to do like He did in the days of the building of the Tower of Babel, come down to take a look. But I think he sits in the heavens and smiles at the foolishness of mortal men." (Speeches of the Year, 25 Oct. 1961, 5).

[DayofAwakening]

The moon landing was faked. Hands down. No other country as gotten there. We can't go with 40 year more technology under our belts then when we supposedly went. This is a sacred cow to most people, even in the truth movement. You must wake up to it though. We need to stop believing in the "great and Abominable Church's lies." The moon landings brought the USA nothing but PRIDE. That ain't good.

Watch A funny thing happened on the way to the moon, by Bart Sabrile.
http://www.moonmovie.com
and
What really happened on the moon part 1
What really happened on the moon part 2

Not all evidence is equal but watch with discerning eyes.


According to Oliver B. Huntington, Joseph Smith taught that "The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height.

"They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style, or fashion of dress.

"They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.

"This is the description of them as given by Joseph the seer, and he could `See' whatever he asked the father in the name of Jesus to see," (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. 3, p. 166; as recorded at the Utah State Historical Society).

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain," (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 217).

[DayofAwakening]

I watched all of the videos, but I am still not convinced. It is important to discuss these things. I am puzzled by the closed minds who quickly dismiss "conspiracies" and ridicule those who talk about them.

Cowell, you have given me food for thought. The myth busters flag video is interesting. Thank you.

I believe that Mars was very recently inhabited. There are more to Father's Kingdom than we could even begin to imagine.

The worlds are all still inhabited. Most people are inside though, through the polar openings or "Mouths" of the planets. The Lost tribes are in our planet's polar opening. Planets should be discribed as a toroidal spherical as a shape instead of a just a sphere. There is MUCH evidence to support this. I'll have to start a new topic for this.. The world is not what THEY tell you it is..Google, "moon has ice." Then Google, "Mercury has polar ice caps"

[Cowell]

What exactly did he mean by "space"?

mchlwise, it depends on what the definition of "is" is...

Sorry. Left yourself wide open for that one.

Welcome back to the thread. (I mean that.)

[skmo]

Eeeeesh! I believe the apostles. When they speak, I hear, listen, obey and Believe!

And did you believe Bruce R. McConkie when he said that the Negro would never get the Priesthood in this eternity? Because not only did he write it down, he used words of Brigham Young when he was the Prophet and President of the Church to back his assertion up. His words are there in black and white, and they are wrong. They were as wrong when President Young spoke them as they were when Elder McConkie wrote them. Time has shown them to be wrong. It doesn't mean they weren't apostles or prophets called of God, just that they made a mistake in what they said.

I don't mean in any way to say I don't fully support any and all of the leaders of the Church, especially the Apostles and Prophets. Probably most of my first ten posts on this website were spent arguing (ironically enough, with the original poster of this topic) about whether or not he was rebelling against the Church Leaders! I support and sustain all the leaders of the LDS Church all the way from President Thomas S. Monson to my Branch President. I also believe that, rare as it may be, they may from time to time, say something that is incorrect. The only person EVER on this earth incapable of being or saying anything wrong was Jesus Christ. I would never question a Prophet who said he was speaking on behalf of The Lord, and if I were told to walk through fire by President Monson because The Lord asked me to I would. If it meant that I were to die it would be because that's what God wanted. However, as rare as it may be, even the most just and holy men can make mistakes. It has happened all throughout the scriptures. Moses did, Nephi did, Joseph Smith did, am I to believe that anyone in this dispensation is less susceptible to error than Joseph Smith? Yet he readily admitted that he made mistakes, but that when directed by God no prophet in our time would do so. I believe and trust in that. It doesn't change the fact that all of us, even apostles and prophets, are human.

Yeah. We've been to the moon.

[Cowell]

Skmo, have you looked at the evidence in the links a few of us have provided? There are certainly issues that cannot be explained, or that I have not heard a good explanation for, like:

1) Flags moving without being touched in a frictionless enviromnement
2) actor-nauts who look like they're on strings
3) obviously doctored photos
4) multiple light sources
5) dangling effects
6) The same area of the "moon" filmed twice and NASA claims they are two different locations
7) Actor-nauts faking an image of the earth through their window

[skmo]

Skmo, have you looked at the evidence in the links a few of us have provided?

Only a couple. I've seen most of this stuff before, and I didn't buy it then any more than I do now. Having a father who worked for NASA, the smartest man I've ever known, I tend to accept his knowledge and experience much more than some of the originators of some of these sites, many of whom can be well-rationed men. Of course there's a lot of them who didn't wear enough tin foil in their hats. I'm not saying everyone denying the moon landings is a nutcase, but there do seem to be a considerable amount of them in that group.

I make no dispersions of anyone on this board at all of being such, and I do honestly mean that. We just agree to disagree.

[ithink]

Interesting topic. Of interest to me is the laser experiments conducted from earth which rely on reflectors left there by apollo 11. Lasers are fired from earth which are reflected back to the origin (like a surveyors prism). Called the Lunar Laser Ranger, it is still in operation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4JL2tq8 ... re=related (part 5 of the series)

If the prisms are there, and they appear to be, then I guess JFS was wrong. No biggie though, since his words aren't canonized.

Stick to the canonized standard works folks, because all the rest just might dry up and blow away in the wind. I won't hold them to their every word any more than I would want to be held to mine if I were in their shoes. In other words, mistakes are made, but we go on anyway.

[skmo]

Stick to the canonized standard works folks, because all the rest just might dry up and blow away in the wind. I won't hold them to their every word any more than I would want to be held to mine if I were in their shoes. In other words, mistakes are made, but we go on anyway.

This is taken from another LDS chat website:

May 13, 2004

To: General Authorities; Area Authority Seventies; Stake, Mission, and District Presidents; Bishops and Branch Presidents

(To be read in sacrament meeting)

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

Statements Attributed to Church Leaders

From time to time statements are circulated among members which are inaccurately attributed to the leaders of the Church. Many such statements distort current Church teachings and are often based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or other informal means.

We encourage members of the Church to never teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved sources, such as official statements, communications, and publications. Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at regional and stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only.

True spiritual growth is based on studying the scriptures, the teachings of the Brethren, and Church publications.

Sincerely your brethren,

Gordon B. Hinckley
Thomas S. Monson
James E. Faust
The First Presidency


==================


Additional Clarification from the office of the first presidency


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I called and asked for the office of the first presidency.
I spoke briefly with the secretary who answered the phone.
She was well aware of the letter I referenced. Here are the answers:

1) Is this policy limited to certain types of meetings (e.g. stake conference, private leadership meetings, private firesides, etc.) or is it a general policy in effect any time a church authority speaks?

The request from the first presidency applies to all situations where general church officers, members of the seventy, general authorities, or apostles are speaking in public or private settings.

2) May we share the notes and comments if we remove the name and location of the person who made the comments?

Absolutely not. In many ways, this is worse than sharing the notes with a name and location attached, since it fuels further speculation about who might have said it. The directive very clearly states that ANY notes taken should be not distributed, regardless of any editing that is done, or any names or locations that might be left out. The brethren are deeply concerned about the rumors being spread and editing out names makes the problem worse, not better.

3) May we share the notes and comments if we remove any implication that the comments were made by an authority or a church leader?

Again, absolutely not. The notes should remain private and in the hands of the individual who took the notes. They should not be shared or distributed, especially on the internet. They are for personal use only.

4) If a friend verbally tells us their notes, may we share those (assuming we remove the source) ?

Again, no.

5) If we have an audio recording or an exact transcription of the talk, may we share that? With or without their name and location attached?

The church prefers to remain the distribution channel for such things. Unofficial transcripts or recordings should remain in the hands of the person who took them and should not be distributed or copied with the consent of the speaker.

If David O. McKay, the President of the LDS Church had wanted this information to go to the church members, he would have given it himself.