Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[larsenb]

And growing up during the millenium doesn't seem to represent the same challenge as experienced by people who had their chance before the millenium. Furthermore, you've admitted MMP right there by implying that these spirits who died young would have another chance during the millenium . . . .assuming they have a second incarnation during this time, where "they will have a time to grow . . . "

We do not know whether those who died as infants will have a time to grow. The version of Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse in WW's journal says:

A question, will Mothers have their children in Eternity yes, yes, you will have the children But as it falls, so it will rise, It will never grow, It will be in its precise form as it fell in its mothers arms. 3 Eternity is full of thrones upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory not one cubit added to their stature

I am not sure if I personally believe this, but it seems to suggest that Joseph didn't believe in MMP.

I was just responding to what RAB had said, taking no position, one way or the other. On the other hand, there seem to be some logical inequities with our present ideas or incomplete understanding regarding how in utero, infant, below-the-age-of accountability early deaths are handled by our theology. I discuss some of this at: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47356&start=630#p833525, which no one seems to care to pick up on . . . which is OK.

[Red]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Have you read Alaris’ blog? All the way through? I don’t think that’s what he wrote. You’re restating an oversimplified version of what you think he wrote.

[Alaris]

And growing up during the millenium doesn't seem to represent the same challenge as experienced by people who had their chance before the millenium. Furthermore, you've admitted MMP right there by implying that these spirits who died young would have another chance during the millenium . . . .assuming they have a second incarnation during this time, where "they will have a time to grow . . . "

We do not know whether those who died as infants will have a time to grow. The version of Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse in WW's journal says:

A question, will Mothers have their children in Eternity yes, yes, you will have the children But as it falls, so it will rise, It will never grow, It will be in its precise form as it fell in its mothers arms. 3 Eternity is full of thrones upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory not one cubit added to their stature

I am not sure if I personally believe this, but it seems to suggest that Joseph didn't believe in MMP.

I was just responding to what RAB had said, taking no position, one way or the other. On the other hand, there seem to be some logical inequities with our present ideas or incomplete understanding regarding how in utero, infant, below-the-age-of accountability early deaths are handled by our theology. I discuss some of this at: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47356&start=630#p833525, which no one seems to care to pick up on . . . which is OK.

Joseph Smith gave the King Follet sermon months before his martyrdom. There is evidence he held onto D&C 132 which speaks of Eternal Lives for years before publishing. He also complained about the saints flying like pieces of glass at truth that conflicts with their false traditions, and he allegedly complained often about how he wished he could tell the saints "who I am" but that they would seek his life. Joseph knew mysteries that were never made public - undoubtedly. Further doubt is removed as you uncover these mysteries which shines a great light on the breadcrumbs. With the children dying in Nauvoo due to Malaria, I believe Brother Joseph was trying to comfort mothers and fathers by reassuring them with a morsel of truth that was never fully fleshed out that - yes - deals with subsequent mortal probations. They were likely comforted in the moment but without a full understanding you get these reports of children resurrecting to immortal bodies sitting on thrones in a child's body. I'll take a look at your thread.

[Finrock]

You prayed about it with an open heart and in humility Silver?

alaris, stop trying to justify your heresy.

Actually, I was pointing out the false nature of the "We have prayed about MMP" statement. Thanks for affirming what was already obvious.

I noticed how you conveniently overlooked the agreement you share on the heresy of MMP with Satan, Snuffer and Rowe.

Silver,

I think your position is well known. You don't believe in MMP and you think its heresy. Check and check. What else do you have to contribute other than calling people names, accusing them of being followers of Satan, mocking, belittling, and attempting to shutdown those who are interested in a reasonable/rational discussion? As a person who is looking for Pros/Cons of the matter, it would be nice to see someone put forth a counter-argument to what Alaris is saying that actually addresses Alaris's ideas, is not an ad hominem, is not proof by assertion, is rational, reasonable, and relevant. Your posts, thus far, have been pretty much just trolling.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Have you read Alaris’ blog? All the way through? I don’t think that’s what he wrote. You’re restating an oversimplified version of what you think he wrote.

Thanks Red. Here are the possibilities:

A. They haven't read it - at least not in an attempt to understand it
B. They have and are drawing false conclusions deliberately

It's one thing if they believe MMP can only lead to these false conclusions - these dots they are connecting themselves. It's another to accuse me of teaching it - let's say that's not quite honest to put it lightly.

[Red]

Not that my experience matters or that anyone even cares, but I was vehemently against MMP for a very long time. I had something happen in my life that triggered my desire to think about it again. Not just think about it, but pray about it and read scriptures that might help me understand why others believe in it. I’ve come to a place in my life where, after many prayers, I’ve come to believe in MMP. Not ever-evolving reincarnation as naysayers like to describe, just the idea that MMP is certainly possible as part of our growth into godhood. I haven’t seen evidence against it. Ive seen evidence of the possibility that it is real and not as dark as we’d like to paint it. Im a faithful LDS, btw. I’ve also believed in its possibility prior to reading Alaris’ blog.

[Silver]

You guys are very good at denying the plain English in Elder Scott's talk.

[Alaris]

Not that my experience matters or that anyone even cares, but I was vehemently against MMP for a very long time. I had something happen in my life that triggered my desire to think about it again. Not just think about it, but pray about it and read scriptures that might help me understand why others believe in it. I’ve come to a place in my life where, after many prayers, I’ve come to believe in MMP. Not ever-evolving reincarnation as naysayers like to describe, just the idea that MMP is certainly possible as part of our growth into godhood. I haven’t seen evidence against it. Ive seen evidence of the possibility that it is real and not as dark as we’d like to paint it. Im a faithful LDS, btw. I’ve also believed in its possibility prior to reading Alaris’ blog.

This is exactly why I wrote the article! - for those like me who are seeking and who have arrived at that inevitable conclusion - again with an invitation to pray before reading and pray after so that any or all truth is illuminated by the Spirit and not by me personally.

[creator]

Seems this thread has gone on long enough. And garnered too much contention from some who can't tolerate open discussion of controversial topics (and no, I'm not a believer in MMP but I have no problem being open-minded and looking into topics like this).