Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Alaris]

On Spencer. I personally learned a lot from his story. Those who disagree with him is fine with me. Everyone has their own belief system. But when people begin to talk mess about him - I think those people need to be more humble and respect those who receive visions, dreams etc. Especially, when it is obvious that the Church leaders are not saying anything negative about him. He is a bishop. That should tell you something. Who cares what FAIR (and others) has to say.

Is he OMS? Again, I stay away from this topic due to the fact that no one is going to know until it is obvious to everyone. The discussion on OMS is pointless because it has gone around circles ever since the church began.

Sure, stick to the thread topic!

Good points all around, except the OMS may not be obvious... At least at first.

The scriptures teach us to read by the Spirit. This is certainly a book anyone can pray about and come to their own conclusions. There was a good point about Spencers importance being reflected by his office; however imho the OMS is the Davidic Servant or Messiah Ben David. As King of Israel he will have the right to assign inherentances for all of Israel ala D&C 85:7. Nothing in Visions of Glory seems to indicate such a position for Spencer as I recall.

So where in the scriptures does it talk about multiple mortal probation?

I'll give you a few because I'm nice like that.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect

D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John’s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. (Notice how many MMP scriptures either reference John or are from John)

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

[Silver]

On Spencer. I personally learned a lot from his story. Those who disagree with him is fine with me. Everyone has their own belief system. But when people begin to talk mess about him - I think those people need to be more humble and respect those who receive visions, dreams etc. Especially, when it is obvious that the Church leaders are not saying anything negative about him. He is a bishop. That should tell you something. Who cares what FAIR (and others) has to say.

Is he OMS? Again, I stay away from this topic due to the fact that no one is going to know until it is obvious to everyone. The discussion on OMS is pointless because it has gone around circles ever since the church began.

Sure, stick to the thread topic!

Good points all around, except the OMS may not be obvious... At least at first.

The scriptures teach us to read by the Spirit. This is certainly a book anyone can pray about and come to their own conclusions. There was a good point about Spencers importance being reflected by his office; however imho the OMS is the Davidic Servant or Messiah Ben David. As King of Israel he will have the right to assign inherentances for all of Israel ala D&C 85:7. Nothing in Visions of Glory seems to indicate such a position for Spencer as I recall.

So where in the scriptures does it talk about multiple mortal probation?

I'll give you a few because I'm nice like that.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect

D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John’s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. (Notice how many MMP scriptures either reference John or are from John)

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

You may be nice, but you're wrong. Those scriptures you quote do not justify your heretical interpretation of MMP.

[gardener4life]

I wonder if maybe people misinterpret MMP when they like have a dream of a future Heavenly Father will give them in the future?

Like let's say hypothetically you have a dream where Heavenly Father gives you a new future (in part because your temporal state here on Earth is being destroyed by Satan)...wouldn't it look like and seem like a new life? But it might not be the same thing. Also if you had a dream about the future, it would be hard to tell if its something that happened in the past of future, or a conditional what would have happened if people in your family had decided to be good, but they didn't.

Also from someone's comment above I would say also that people really do have dreams and visions sometimes when Heavenly Father lets them; like what Marco said above.

Also I'm thinking this thread has a run for the longest ever based its current progress.

[Alaris]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures:

Wresting example: Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about. It's one thing to not understand all the mysteries - clearly some on LDSFF have that privilege - it's another to say what the scriptures can't mean.

Alma 41 is not meaningless given the context of an immortal state. That state is endless just as Adam's state was endless ... before it wasn't endless anymore.

[Silver]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures. Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about.

One more time, for the children, we prayed. MMP is false.

[larsenb]

Regardless of all the compelling arguments for or against MMPs, scriptural or otherwise, I've always wondered about the issue in terms of the 'necessity' of 2/3rds of the host of heaven being given a chance to experience and learn from a mortal probation.

One fairly logical argument for MMPs, has to do with the millions of babies that died in utero, shortly after being born, or at various stages from babyhood to the age of accountability. This is a vaaaaaast number of spirits. Do they somehow not need the full mortal experience??

One can think of episodes such as the probably thousands and 10's of thousands of young babies, todlers, kids that were incinerated in the Dresden fire bombing or the annihilations that took place at Hiroshima or Nagasaki; and you can think of any number of earlier slaughterings of the innocent.

That said, I don't get wrapped around this axle too much. But it remains a question in my mind . . . . one that may be solved by some sort of 2nd chance at a mortal probation.

I recognize that this question has probably been raised before on these MMP threads, but this is just my two bits.

[RAB]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures:

Wresting example: Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about. It's one thing to not understand all the mysteries - clearly some on LDSFF have that privilege - it's another to say what the scriptures can't mean.

Alma 41 is not meaningless given the context of an immortal state. That state is endless just as Adam's state was endless ... before it wasn't endless anymore.

You have not quoted one thing that definitely supports MMP. I have read all of that, and not one thing says that perfection must happen in mortality. It simply doesn't exist. To inherit eternal life requires perfection, true. But where in the scriptures did it say that perfection must be achieved in this life? Anyone who wonders about what the Lord means and the timing of perfection simply should reread Elder Holland's talk entitled "Be ye therefore perfect--eventually." Progress happens after our mortal life, just as Joseph Smith taught and many others. Perfection to be in the presence of God will be required eventually. Hence, there is a space of time, quite lengthy actually, between the resurrection and exaltation.

[RAB]

Regardless of all the compelling arguments for or against MMPs, scriptural or otherwise, I've always wondered about the issue in terms of the 'necessity' of 2/3rds of the host of heaven being given a chance to experience and learn from a mortal probation.

One fairly logical argument for MMPs, has to do with the millions of babies that died in utero, shortly after being born, or at various stages from babyhood to the age of accountability. This is a vaaaaaast number of spirits. Do they somehow don't need the full mortal experience??

One can think of episodes such as the probably thousands and 10's of thousands of young babies, todlers, kids that were incinerated in the Dresden fire bombing or the annihilations that took place at Hiroshima or Nagasaki; and you can think of any number of earlier slaughterings of the innocent.

That said, I don't get wrapped around this axle too much. But it remains a question in my mind . . . . one that may be solved by some sort of 2nd chance at a mortal probation.

I recognize that this question has probably been raised before on these MMP threads, but this is just my two bits.

My take on that is God knows when we will die. So it is easy to imagine him placing those of His precious children that do not need a full mortal experience to be those who die young. They will have a time to grow line upon line during the millenium. MMP would actually cut against Joseph's teaching that those who die before the age of accountability are saved in the Kingdom of God. If they were slated to come back again, they might not be saved. They very well could damn themselves by their actions.

[Alaris]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures:

Wresting example: Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about. It's one thing to not understand all the mysteries - clearly some on LDSFF have that privilege - it's another to say what the scriptures can't mean.

Alma 41 is not meaningless given the context of an immortal state. That state is endless just as Adam's state was endless ... before it wasn't endless anymore.

You have not quoted one thing that definitely supports MMP. I have read all of that, and not one thing says that perfection must happen in mortality. It simply doesn't exist. To inherit eternal life requires perfection, true. But where in the scriptures did it say that perfection must be achieved in this life? Anyone who wonders about what the Lord means and the timing of perfection simply should reread Elder Holland's talk entitled "Be ye therefore perfect--eventually." Progress happens after our mortal life, just as Joseph Smith taught and many others. Perfection to be in the presence of God will be required eventually. Hence, there is a space of time, quite lengthy actually, between the resurrection and exaltation.

And nobody has quoted anything that definitely rules out MMP - hence mystery.

Perfection didn't happen in mortality alone for Jesus Christ or the Father either. Progress does happen after our mortal life ... what that entails is the heart of the matter.

Thanks for the substantive, respectful debate.

[larsenb]

Regardless of all the compelling arguments for or against MMPs, scriptural or otherwise, I've always wondered about the issue in terms of the 'necessity' of 2/3rds of the host of heaven being given a chance to experience and learn from a mortal probation.

One fairly logical argument for MMPs, has to do with the millions of babies that died in utero, shortly after being born, or at various stages from babyhood to the age of accountability. This is a vaaaaaast number of spirits. Do they somehow don't need the full mortal experience??

One can think of episodes such as the probably thousands and 10's of thousands of young babies, todlers, kids that were incinerated in the Dresden fire bombing or the annihilations that took place at Hiroshima or Nagasaki; and you can think of any number of earlier slaughterings of the innocent.

That said, I don't get wrapped around this axle too much. But it remains a question in my mind . . . . one that may be solved by some sort of 2nd chance at a mortal probation.

I recognize that this question has probably been raised before on these MMP threads, but this is just my two bits.

My take on that is God knows when we will die. So it is easy to imagine him placing those of His precious children that do not need a full mortal experience to be those who die young. They will have a time to grow line upon line during the millenium. MMP would actually cut against Joseph's teaching that those who die before the age of accountability are saved in the Kingdom of God. If they were slated to come back again, they might not be saved. They very well could damn themselves by their actions.

The apparent logic against this idea, is that it seems odd that God would arrange for so many thousands of spirits to be incinerated/annihilated all at once in the tragedies I mentioned. But notice, I said: "apparent logic". It's not hard and fast.

And growing up during the millenium doesn't seem to represent the same challenge as experienced by people who had their chance before the millenium. Furthermore, you've admitted MMP right there by implying that these spirits who died young would have another chance during the millenium . . . .assuming they have a second incarnation during this time, where "they will have a time to grow . . . "

Also, it very well may be as Joseph said, that those who die before accountability go back to the Celestial spheres where they came from, perhaps because they haven't undergone the test designed for them. However, the Book of Mormon has numerous scriptures that talk about those who join with God "to go no more out". This could imply that those spirits who have died very early and are caught back up in the Celestial spheres, may have to "go out again" for their complete mortal experience.

Just some thoughts. I'm just trying to think about all this. They are possibilities. Nothing more, to me.

[Silver]

The issue of children dying in the womb or as infants is very clearly covered in Moroni 8.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.

6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.

7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. (close quote)

I have a personal witness on this matter from Elder Kikuchi via a prophesy that fell from his lips. Trust only, doubting not.

MMP is an abomination, a heresy, a falsehood. Now is the time to prepare to meet God.

[larsenb]

The issue of children dying in the womb or as infants is very clearly covered in Moroni 8.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.

6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.

7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. (close quote)

I have a personal witness on this matter from Elder Kikuchi via a prophesy that fell from his lips. Trust only, doubting not.

MMP is an abomination, a heresy, a falsehood. Now is the time to prepare to meet God.

Nothing I've speculated about implies that "Now is [not] the time to prepare to meet God", or that little children need baptism.

[Silver]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

[Finrock]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

The fact there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating multiple mortal probations is false is absolutely an evidence in the doctrine’s favor.

You must understand that this is a very poor argument. There is only one truth but countless falsehoods. Should there be an official declaration against every imaginable falsehood?

This is a very good point. Alaris says that this would be a poor argument if it stood alone. In fact, this argument doesn't do anything for the MMP idea, at all, even if it doesn't stand alone. Its just not an argument in favor of MMP, period. It is absolutely not an evidence in the doctrine's favor, either alone, or along side some other arguments. In other words, and to really beat a dead horse, the logic in the argument is nonsense and it remains nonsense regardless of any other arguments which may actually be arguments in favor of MMP. To belabor the point even further, its not evidence and it will never be evidence in favor of MMP, no matter what.

The fact that there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating that the universe is an electron inside God's body is false is not evidence in favor of that idea.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

The fact there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating multiple mortal probations is false is absolutely an evidence in the doctrine’s favor.

You must understand that this is a very poor argument. There is only one truth but countless falsehoods. Should there be an official declaration against every imaginable falsehood?

This is a very good point. Alaris says that this would be a poor argument if it stood alone. In fact, this argument doesn't do anything for the MMP idea, at all, even if it doesn't stand alone. Its just not an argument in favor of MMP, period. It is absolutely not an evidence in the doctrine's favor, either alone, or along side some other arguments. In other words, and to really beat a dead horse, the logic in the argument is nonsense and it remains nonsense regardless of any other arguments which may actually be arguments in favor of MMP. To belabor the point even further, its not evidence and it will never be evidence in favor of MMP, no matter what.

The fact that there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating that the universe is an electron inside God's body is false is not evidence in favor of that idea.

-Finrock

Except there aren't many LDS who believe that the universe is an electron inside God's body. This is the least of the arguments in favor of MMP.

[inho]

And growing up during the millenium doesn't seem to represent the same challenge as experienced by people who had their chance before the millenium. Furthermore, you've admitted MMP right there by implying that these spirits who died young would have another chance during the millenium . . . .assuming they have a second incarnation during this time, where "they will have a time to grow . . . "

We do not know whether those who died as infants will have a time to grow. The version of Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse in WW's journal says:

A question, will Mothers have their children in Eternity yes, yes, you will have the children But as it falls, so it will rise, It will never grow, It will be in its precise form as it fell in its mothers arms. 3 Eternity is full of thrones upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory not one cubit added to their stature

I am not sure if I personally believe this, but it seems to suggest that Joseph didn't believe in MMP.

[AI2.0]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

[Finrock]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

I doubt that a person who believes in MMP would agree with your interpretation and understanding of it. Your explanation doesn't seem objective and it isn't representative of those who believe in MMP. It seems to me that you are using this story in the same way that anti-Mormons use the "God Maker" films. Its like an anti-Mormon showing me the movie "God Makers" in order to demonstrate what's wrong with Mormonism. An objective person would see that film and ask, "What does this film have to do with Mormons or Mormonism?" Well, it doesn't, because it doesn't fairly or accurately represent what Mormons actually believe. Now, I doubt Elder Scott was talking to people who believe in MMP or was even addressing MMP ideas in this talk and so it seems you are just projecting your anti-MMP beliefs on to this story and then trying to use it to illustrate the "wrongness" of MMP. But, your premises don't match up with what a believer in MMP believes.

Will a believer in MMP agree: 1. There is no atonement? 2. There is no forever family? 3. No ordinances that extend beyond this life? 4. All is temporary, fleeting? 5. That MMP makes the temple and everything we do futile and a cruel lie? And so on...

If not, then the story is irrelevant and doesn't address the topic at hand.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Finrock nailed it. I made the case for MMP in the original article that shows simple logic that can be confirmed by prayer. Since posting this, there have been countless attempts to misstate, jump to odd / false conclusions, and then accuse me of believing these misstatements / false assumptions / etc. Honestly, I don't know how any of you can't see how these deceptions and lies to disparage my beliefs, my character, my church standing, and my eternal salvation have gone way over the line. I'm not the only who believes this who is a faithful Latter-day saint, so attempts to straw man me by singling me out attacking me personally is wrong from a Gospel perspective and is weak from a debate perspective.

[Silver]

A prophet beats the tar out of falsehood and Snuffer and Rowe every time.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard- ... happiness/

Finding Happiness
RICHARD G. SCOTT
Aug. 19, 1997 • Devotional

Through repeated prayers offered in preparation of this message, I have had one objective: that I be led to communicate truths that would significantly help each of you find happiness. I recognize that the great majority I address are faithful sons and daughters of Father in Heaven who strive to obey his commandments—or sincere individuals who want to do so. For that reason I would speak to each of you as though we were in a private conversation where we share our purest feelings, our aspirations, our hopes, and our dreams as two can do when there is mutual trust and a common basis of belief. I encourage you to write the feelings and impressions that come to you. I have prayed that the Spirit confirm to your mind and heart the essence of what I would like to communicate.

For some time I have known how I wanted to begin this message, yet I have always been very careful not to share sacred experiences without a feeling of authorization to do so. I thought first of merely stating the principles that I learned from one such experience without reference to the specific event. Yet I realized that it would be far more meaningful if I related exactly what occurred. After prayerfully seeking guidance, I feel I can communicate an experience that is sacred to me. It indelibly taught how precious and of inestimable worth is the gospel plan or plan of happiness Heavenly Father has given us. I have seen that plan from a different perspective than ever before in my life, and that has given me greater understanding and appreciation for it. I pray that when we conclude you may feel that same gratitude. May you also resolve to take fuller advantage of the inexpressibly rich opportunities the Lord has given us for true happiness, now and forever.

Recently I awoke from a most disturbing dream. I ached physically, was saturated with perspiration, and my heart was pounding. Every sense was sharpened. The transition from sleep to wakefulness was imperceptible. I have come to recognize that as an indication of a significant spiritual experience in a dream. I had been taught lessons that would change my life. Although the actual dream was extensive, the key lessons communicated can be summarized by reference to a few specific experiences in the dream.

In it I found myself in a very different and unknown environment. Everything was strange to me. I could not recognize where I was or any of the individuals who surrounded me. I was anxiously seeking my wife, Jeanene. We had been separated, and I wanted very much to find her. Each individual I encountered said that I would not be able to do that. Repeatedly as I sought in different directions to find her, I was emphatically told to forget her for she would not be found. I was frustrated at every turn. One said, “She is no longer the same individual. There isn’t a Jeanene like you knew.”

I thought, that is impossible. I know her, and I know she will never change.

Then I was told, “You are not the same. There is no individual by the name of Richard Scott, and soon all of the memories you’ve had of Jeanene, your children, and other loved ones will be eradicated.”

Fear entered my heart, accompanied by a horrifying feeling. Then came the thought: “No, that is impossible. Those relationships are enduring and unchanging. As long as we live righteously, they cannot be eliminated. They are eternally fixed.”

As more encounters came I realized that I was surrounded with evil individuals who were completely unhappy, with no purpose save that of frustrating the happiness of others so that they too would become miserable. These wicked ones were striving to manipulate those persons over whom they sought to exercise control. I somehow was conscious that those who believed their lies were being led through treachery and deceit from what they wanted most. They soon began to believe that their individuality, their experience, and their relationships as families and friends were being altered and lost. They became angry, aggressive, and engulfed by feelings of hopelessness.

The pressure became more intense to accept as reality that what I had been no longer existed and that my cherished wife was no longer the same. Should I encounter her she wouldn’t recognize me nor want me. I resisted those thoughts with every capacity that I could find. I was determined to find her. I knew that there must be a way and was resolute in searching no matter what the cost in time or effort.

It was then that I broke out of that oppressive surrounding and could see that it was an ugly, artificial, contrived environment. So intense were the feelings generated by what I had been told by those bent on destroying my hope to take me captive that I had not realized the forces of opposition that made my efforts appear fruitless could have no power over me unless I yielded through fear or abandonment of my principles. The environment appeared real, yet it had been generated from fear and threat. Although it was simulated, to those who let themselves believe the falsehoods thrust upon them it became reality.

I can now understand that because of my faith in the truths of the gospel plan, I could break through Satan’s manipulative, evil environment to see it as it is—not only in the dream, but in real life as well—a confining, controlling, destructive influence that can be overcome by faith in and obedience to truth. Others were disheartened, disoriented, and finally overcome as they lost hope because they either lacked a foundation of truth to engender conviction, courage, and confidence or they let their belief be overcome by the pressure of the moment.

As I awoke there flooded over me feelings of love and gratitude for our Heavenly Father and his Beloved Son that I do not have the capacity to express. My heart and mind filled with consuming love for them and inexpressible appreciation for the blessings that are available to every spiritual child of Father in Heaven willing to believe and be obedient to the plan of happiness. I cannot convey the unspeakable joy, the feeling of being wrapped in pure love, the absolute assurance that we will never lose our identity or memory of cherished relationships or the benefits of righteous acts as we continue to resist evil and are obedient to truth.

Our Father’s love, his perfections, and his perfect righteousness are absolute guarantees that we will ever exist as an individual entity, an intelligence clothed with spirit and body with latent divine capacities that mature and flower through obedience to his plan and his commandments. We have in his Son a perfect example of willing obedience and perfect love. How hopeless life would be without the absolute assurance of justice centered in fixed laws that are the bedrock foundation of the Father’s plan. What is true one day cannot be manipulated to be something else by the whim or command of another personage. Your happiness is absolutely guaranteed as you willingly obey his commandments, receive all of the necessary ordinances, and are obedient to them, for he is a perfect, loving Father who will never change.

Somehow during that horrifying experience, I glimpsed how except for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which lets us rectify mistakes through his plan of redemption, justice would demand a recompense for every error committed in life that we could not fulfill. Thus we could not return to Father in Heaven’s presence. We would be left under the dominion of Lucifer, whose intent is to capture us and to destroy everything that is good and righteous in our beings. Over time we would become like Satan because we would lose all hope of returning to Father in Heaven and of benefiting from his righteousness, his mercy, and his perfect love.

Although I would not welcome another like experience, this dream has taught me how easy it is to take for granted our relationship with our Father in Heaven and his Beloved Son, our Master and Savior. Oh, how blessed are we that they are as they say they are, perfect in every possible capacity and attribute. Fundamental to their purpose is that you “might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:25).

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Finrock nailed it. I made the case for MMP in the original article that shows simple logic that can be confirmed by prayer. Since posting this, there have been countless attempts to misstate, jump to odd / false conclusions, and then accuse me of believing these misstatements / false assumptions / etc. Honestly, I don't know how any of you can't see how these deceptions and lies to disparage my beliefs, my character, my church standing, and my eternal salvation have gone way over the line. I'm not the only who believes this who is a faithful Latter-day saint, so attempts to straw man me by singling me out attacking me personally is wrong from a Gospel perspective and is weak from a debate perspective.

alaris, you asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is false. I know this now with much more conviction than when you first started on your journey to spread heresy here that has you, by the way, joined at the hip with such stellar personalities as Denver Snuffer, the Ex-Communicated Apostate, and Julie Rowe, the Imitator. Are you sure you want to, as the faithful LDS you claim to be, march, lock-step, with those fraudsters? You have been excommunicated once, if we are to believe your early posts. You know that it is not a light thing. Do you now want to preach heresy, along with the fraudsters, and be excommunicated again? Have you spoken with your priesthood line leaders and explained to them with as much passion and determination as you exhibit here this falsehood which you have embraced?

You asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is wrong so you're wrong to hang on to a doctrine that the prophets and apostles of the Church do not promote or agree with. Refer to Elder Scott's talk. He says the idea came from Satan.

Satan, Snuffer, Rowe. You best wash your hands of those three and walk away.

[Alaris]

How does this address the idea of MMP in any way? Having read the talk it seems completely irrelevant to the topic at hand in this thread.

-Finrock

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Finrock nailed it. I made the case for MMP in the original article that shows simple logic that can be confirmed by prayer. Since posting this, there have been countless attempts to misstate, jump to odd / false conclusions, and then accuse me of believing these misstatements / false assumptions / etc. Honestly, I don't know how any of you can't see how these deceptions and lies to disparage my beliefs, my character, my church standing, and my eternal salvation have gone way over the line. I'm not the only who believes this who is a faithful Latter-day saint, so attempts to straw man me by singling me out attacking me personally is wrong from a Gospel perspective and is weak from a debate perspective.

alaris, you asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is false. I know this now with much more conviction than when you first started on your journey to spread heresy here that has you, by the way, joined at the hip with such stellar personalities as Denver Snuffer, the Ex-Communicated Apostate, and Julie Rowe, the Imitator. Are you sure you want to, as the faithful LDS you claim to be, march, lock-step, with those fraudsters? You have been excommunicated once, if we are to believe your early posts. You know that it is not a light thing. Do you now want to preach heresy, along with the fraudsters, and be excommunicated again? Have you spoken with your priesthood line leaders and explained to them with as much passion and determination as you exhibit here this falsehood which you have embraced?

You asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is wrong so you're wrong to hang on to a doctrine that the prophets and apostles of the Church do not promote or agree with. Refer to Elder Scott's talk. He says the idea came from Satan.

Satan, Snuffer, Rowe. You best wash your hands of those three and walk away.

You prayed about it with an open heart and in humility Silver?

[Silver]

If you have to ask that? Read it again, more carefully this time.

Alaris view of MMP is that of reincarnation into another mortal body, in this life, with a different family, different life, different everything. You will continue to be born again into this mortal world as a different person. You will have no recollection of your past lives, your past loves, your family, friends, everything that is part of who you are now. And, it means you've lived before who knows how many times, marrying, having children, but they are all lost to you now.

Read the talk again and see if there is any constancy in a belief in MMP--there is no forever family, there is no ordiances that extend beyond this life, because you will be sent back down again to do it all over again, with other people in your life. All is temporary, fleeting and there is no atonement, because you will be judged and sent back down to fix your own mistakes. You will be sent back over and over again until you can live a perfect life. The Nightmare he had is MMP.

Multiple Mortal probations is the very antithesis of the Plan of Salvation and The Atonement of Jesus Christ. It makes the Temple and everything we do there, futile and a cruel lie.

Alaris believes that he's receiving higher revelation which contradicts the basic principles and doctrines of the LDS church. Why he can't acknowledge this, I do not know.

Finrock nailed it. I made the case for MMP in the original article that shows simple logic that can be confirmed by prayer. Since posting this, there have been countless attempts to misstate, jump to odd / false conclusions, and then accuse me of believing these misstatements / false assumptions / etc. Honestly, I don't know how any of you can't see how these deceptions and lies to disparage my beliefs, my character, my church standing, and my eternal salvation have gone way over the line. I'm not the only who believes this who is a faithful Latter-day saint, so attempts to straw man me by singling me out attacking me personally is wrong from a Gospel perspective and is weak from a debate perspective.

alaris, you asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is false. I know this now with much more conviction than when you first started on your journey to spread heresy here that has you, by the way, joined at the hip with such stellar personalities as Denver Snuffer, the Ex-Communicated Apostate, and Julie Rowe, the Imitator. Are you sure you want to, as the faithful LDS you claim to be, march, lock-step, with those fraudsters? You have been excommunicated once, if we are to believe your early posts. You know that it is not a light thing. Do you now want to preach heresy, along with the fraudsters, and be excommunicated again? Have you spoken with your priesthood line leaders and explained to them with as much passion and determination as you exhibit here this falsehood which you have embraced?

You asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is wrong so you're wrong to hang on to a doctrine that the prophets and apostles of the Church do not promote or agree with. Refer to Elder Scott's talk. He says the idea came from Satan.

Satan, Snuffer, Rowe. You best wash your hands of those three and walk away.

You prayed about it with an open heart and in humility Silver?

alaris, stop trying to justify your heresy.

[Alaris]

Finrock nailed it. I made the case for MMP in the original article that shows simple logic that can be confirmed by prayer. Since posting this, there have been countless attempts to misstate, jump to odd / false conclusions, and then accuse me of believing these misstatements / false assumptions / etc. Honestly, I don't know how any of you can't see how these deceptions and lies to disparage my beliefs, my character, my church standing, and my eternal salvation have gone way over the line. I'm not the only who believes this who is a faithful Latter-day saint, so attempts to straw man me by singling me out attacking me personally is wrong from a Gospel perspective and is weak from a debate perspective.

alaris, you asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is false. I know this now with much more conviction than when you first started on your journey to spread heresy here that has you, by the way, joined at the hip with such stellar personalities as Denver Snuffer, the Ex-Communicated Apostate, and Julie Rowe, the Imitator. Are you sure you want to, as the faithful LDS you claim to be, march, lock-step, with those fraudsters? You have been excommunicated once, if we are to believe your early posts. You know that it is not a light thing. Do you now want to preach heresy, along with the fraudsters, and be excommunicated again? Have you spoken with your priesthood line leaders and explained to them with as much passion and determination as you exhibit here this falsehood which you have embraced?

You asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is wrong so you're wrong to hang on to a doctrine that the prophets and apostles of the Church do not promote or agree with. Refer to Elder Scott's talk. He says the idea came from Satan.

Satan, Snuffer, Rowe. You best wash your hands of those three and walk away.

You prayed about it with an open heart and in humility Silver?

alaris, stop trying to justify your heresy.

Actually, I was pointing out the false nature of the "We have prayed about MMP" statement. Thanks for affirming what was already obvious.

[Silver]

alaris, you asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is false. I know this now with much more conviction than when you first started on your journey to spread heresy here that has you, by the way, joined at the hip with such stellar personalities as Denver Snuffer, the Ex-Communicated Apostate, and Julie Rowe, the Imitator. Are you sure you want to, as the faithful LDS you claim to be, march, lock-step, with those fraudsters? You have been excommunicated once, if we are to believe your early posts. You know that it is not a light thing. Do you now want to preach heresy, along with the fraudsters, and be excommunicated again? Have you spoken with your priesthood line leaders and explained to them with as much passion and determination as you exhibit here this falsehood which you have embraced?

You asked us to pray about it. We did. MMP is wrong so you're wrong to hang on to a doctrine that the prophets and apostles of the Church do not promote or agree with. Refer to Elder Scott's talk. He says the idea came from Satan.

Satan, Snuffer, Rowe. You best wash your hands of those three and walk away.

You prayed about it with an open heart and in humility Silver?

alaris, stop trying to justify your heresy.

Actually, I was pointing out the false nature of the "We have prayed about MMP" statement. Thanks for affirming what was already obvious.

I noticed how you conveniently overlooked the agreement you share on the heresy of MMP with Satan, Snuffer and Rowe.