Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:28 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:18 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:13 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Got it. I should have said united to my wife instead of sealed. Husband and wife are united when sealed in the temple as are children and parents. But still, not sure why people think that can't be done in the Terrestrial kingdom. Thanks.
One has to live a higher law than terrestrial in order to be worth to enter the temple and receive the sealing ordinances it cant be done under a terrestrial law. It is not about the state we are living in it is about the law we keep.
Sounds like you are saying you can live a higher law than terrestrial while living in the telestial kingdom AND be sealed for eternity.
Exactly now you have figured it out. Christ came down to this earth in its fallen state and lived a perfect law - He lived celestial. Joseph Smith would say show me the law a person lives and I will show you the Kingdom he would inherit.
During the millennium the earth will be terrestrial but Christ will live personally on the earth - what law will he be living.

The temple is represents Gods house on earth ie celestial not any other kingdom and the ordinances thereof are celestial.
Awesome. Thanks. Sounds like what I was saying. But still not sure why if you believe you can be sealed in the telestial kingdom, you can't in the terrestrial. Thanks!

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inho
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by inho »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:15 pm I'm not interpreting anything. Quote straight from Holland in general conference:
"We are in the telestial kingdom;"
I chose to follow the current brethren and not interpretations of people online. Those who say we are not in the telestial kingdom are saying so directly against an apostle.
Sure you are interpreting. The phrase "the telestial kingdom" can be understood in many different ways. Your interpretation is that when Elder Holland use that phrase, it referred to the same thing as in D&C 76.
I don't see it that way. D&C 76 speaks about the kingdoms we inherit after the resurrection. As I have shown, it makes it clear that the telestial kingdom is something different than this world. Thus, I conclude that Holland used the word telestial differently–which is not unheard, many words have different meanings. It has become a custom to use the word 'telestial' to also refer to this mortal world.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Spaced_Out »

Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:28 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:18 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:13 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Got it. I should have said united to my wife instead of sealed. Husband and wife are united when sealed in the temple as are children and parents. But still, not sure why people think that can't be done in the Terrestrial kingdom. Thanks.
One has to live a higher law than terrestrial in order to be worth to enter the temple and receive the sealing ordinances it cant be done under a terrestrial law. It is not about the state we are living in it is about the law we keep.
Sounds like you are saying you can live a higher law than terrestrial while living in the telestial kingdom AND be sealed for eternity.
Exactly now you have figured it out. Christ came down to this earth in its fallen state and lived a perfect law - He lived celestial. Joseph Smith would say show me the law a person lives and I will show you the Kingdom he would inherit.
During the millennium the earth will be terrestrial but Christ will live personally on the earth - what law will he be living.

The temple is represents Gods house on earth ie celestial not any other kingdom and the ordinances thereof are celestial.
Did you miss the scripture - the church is above all things beneath the celestial kingdom.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:28 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:18 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:13 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Got it. I should have said united to my wife instead of sealed. Husband and wife are united when sealed in the temple as are children and parents. But still, not sure why people think that can't be done in the Terrestrial kingdom. Thanks.
One has to live a higher law than terrestrial in order to be worth to enter the temple and receive the sealing ordinances it cant be done under a terrestrial law. It is not about the state we are living in it is about the law we keep.
Sounds like you are saying you can live a higher law than terrestrial while living in the telestial kingdom AND be sealed for eternity.
Exactly now you have figured it out. Christ came down to this earth in its fallen state and lived a perfect law - He lived celestial. Joseph Smith would say show me the law a person lives and I will show you the Kingdom he would inherit.
During the millennium the earth will be terrestrial but Christ will live personally on the earth - what law will he be living.

The temple is represents Gods house on earth ie celestial not any other kingdom and the ordinances thereof are celestial.
Or maybe you are saying during the millenium it will be the terrestrial kingdom? And sealings will take place during the millenium? I have heard people say Joseph taught something like that but have never seen it anywhere.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:30 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:15 pm I'm not interpreting anything. Quote straight from Holland in general conference:
"We are in the telestial kingdom;"
I chose to follow the current brethren and not interpretations of people online. Those who say we are not in the telestial kingdom are saying so directly against an apostle.
Sure you are interpreting. The phrase "the telestial kingdom" can be understood in many different ways. Your interpretation is that when Elder Holland use that phrase, it referred to the same thing as in D&C 76.
I don't see it that way. D&C 76 speaks about the kingdoms we inherit after the resurrection. As I have shown, it makes it clear that the telestial kingdom is something different than this world. Thus, I conclude that Holland used the word telestial differently–which is not unheard, many words have different meanings. It has become a custom to use the word 'telestial' to also refer to this mortal world.
I appreciate your interpretation, but I can only go by what the brethren say. When he says we are in the telestial kingdom I'm going to believe him. Thanks!

Spaced_Out
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Spaced_Out »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:29 pm Awesome. Thanks. Sounds like what I was saying. But still not sure why if you believe you can be sealed in the telestial kingdom, you can't in the terrestrial. Thanks!
The ordinances of salvation have to be done on this earth - which can also be accomplished during the millennium when the earth will be terrestrial. Again it has nothing to do with the state the earth is in - they are celestial laws and ordinances that require a person live a celestial law in order to be worthy and performed in a place that represents celestial.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Spaced_Out »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:32 pm Or maybe you are saying during the millenium it will be the terrestrial kingdom? And sealings will take place during the millenium? I have heard people say Joseph taught something like that but have never seen it anywhere.
From the gospel principle Manuel, for investigators and new members...
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... m?lang=eng
The Work of the Church during the Millennium
What are the two great works that will be done during the Millennium?

There will be two great works for members of the Church during the Millennium: temple work and missionary work. Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances—the endowment, temple marriage, and the sealing together of family units.

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:35 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:29 pm Awesome. Thanks. Sounds like what I was saying. But still not sure why if you believe you can be sealed in the telestial kingdom, you can't in the terrestrial. Thanks!
The ordinances of salvation have to be done on this earth - which can also be accomplished during the millennium when the earth will be terrestrial. Again it has nothing to do with the state the earth is in - they are celestial laws and ordinances that require a person live a celestial law in order to be worthy and performed in a place that represents celestial.
Thanks. Where are people getting the idea that Joseph taught in Nauvoo that we are in the telestial kingdom right now and the millenium will be the terrestrial kingdom? I'd like to see reference to it but haven't seen it myself. Thanks.

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inho
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by inho »

If we think that this is the telestial kingdom, then how do you believe that the progression to higher kingdoms happen? Can it happen during ones lifetime? Are there people who have gone from this world to the celestial kingdom? I don't know any examples. I guess one could argue that translated beings were moved to terrestrial kingdom, but how about getting in the celestial kingdom? It seems like it is not possible during this life. So are you really trying to argue some sort of MMP as Silver guessed? Or, do you admit that there are a difference between the post-resurrection kingdom of glories and the glory of this mortal world?

If this is the telestial kingdom, why is Satan allowed to be here?

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inho
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by inho »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:42 pm Where are people getting the idea that Joseph taught in Nauvoo that we are in the telestial kingdom right now and the millenium will be the terrestrial kingdom? I'd like to see reference to it but haven't seen it myself. Thanks.
As Robin Hood said, one could understand the endowment to teach that we are currently in the telestial kingdom. However, I think that mostly our use of telestial referring to Earth's current state and terrestrial referring to millenial state comes from Joseph Fielding Smith:
This earth is passing through four grand degrees or stages: 1. The creation and the condition antedating the fall. 2. The telestial condition which has prevailed since the fall of Adam. 3. The terrestrial condition that will prevail when the Savior comes and ushers in the millennial era. 4. The celestial or final state of the earth when it has obtained its exaltation. There is, also, what the Lord has called a "little season," following the millennium when Satan will be loosed and the last great battle will be fought. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:82)

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:45 pm If we think that this is the telestial kingdom, then how do you believe that the progression to higher kingdoms happen? Can it happen during ones lifetime? Are there people who have gone from this world to the celestial kingdom? I don't know any examples. I guess one could argue that translated beings were moved to terrestrial kingdom, but how about getting in the celestial kingdom? It seems like it is not possible during this life. So are you really trying to argue some sort of MMP as Silver guessed? Or, do you admit that there are a difference between the post-resurrection kingdom of glories and the glory of this mortal world?

If this is the telestial kingdom, why is Satan allowed to be here?
I don't know the answers to those questions. I do like those questions though, thanks! However, I do know what Holland said in conference.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with MMP?! Why do you guys keep bringing that up? It's like you guys are obsessed with that subject. I don't get it. If anything, wouldn't being in the telestial kingdom currently be detrimental to MMP?

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:50 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:42 pm Where are people getting the idea that Joseph taught in Nauvoo that we are in the telestial kingdom right now and the millenium will be the terrestrial kingdom? I'd like to see reference to it but haven't seen it myself. Thanks.
As Robin Hood said, one could understand the endowment to teach that we are currently in the telestial kingdom. However, I think that mostly our use of telestial referring to Earth's current state and terrestrial referring to millenial state comes from Joseph Fielding Smith:
This earth is passing through four grand degrees or stages: 1. The creation and the condition antedating the fall. 2. The telestial condition which has prevailed since the fall of Adam. 3. The terrestrial condition that will prevail when the Savior comes and ushers in the millennial era. 4. The celestial or final state of the earth when it has obtained its exaltation. There is, also, what the Lord has called a "little season," following the millennium when Satan will be loosed and the last great battle will be fought. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:82)
Thanks for that!

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

If this is the telestial kingdom then I am going to do everything in my power not to end up here! That is the best incentive for repentance that I have had in a while! Thank you!

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

This is the thread where the dearly departed Bob Henstra would come in handy.

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

True wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:00 pm If this is the telestial kingdom then I am going to do everything in my power not to end up here! That is the best incentive for repentance that I have had in a while! Thank you!
True that! Hahaha

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

True wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:02 pm This is the thread where the dearly departed Bob Henstra would come in handy.
No idea who that is.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Spaced_Out »

The earth was created terrestrial state when Adam was in the garden of Eden then became telestial due to the fall of Adam. ^The earth will be again terrestrial during the millennium then will become a sea of glass and become celestial at the the end of the millennium But in all this the earth lives and abides a celestial law. Again it is all about the law we live...
D&C 88:22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

Silver
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

Let's just clear up one thing right now. There is in the Church a misunderstanding about something Joseph Smith, Jr., once said about people committing suicide to get to the Telestial Kingdom, if they could just gaze upon what it's like there.

Truman G. Madsen writes on the belief:

“Many of us have heard the statement made—and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young—to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that’s a rumor? Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can’t find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young’s words, and he can’t find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement (see Diary of Charles C. Walker, August 1837, in Church Historical Department). Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn’t stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family.” (The Radiant Life, p. 91)

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:03 pm
True wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:02 pm This is the thread where the dearly departed Bob Henstra would come in handy.
No idea who that is.
Bob wrote extensively about progression between kingdoms. He pretty much wrote a thesis on it. He sent it to me and it is fascinating.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:04 pm Let's just clear up one thing right now. There is in the Church a misunderstanding about something Joseph Smith, Jr., once said about people committing suicide to get to the Telestial Kingdom, if they could just gaze upon what it's like there.

Truman G. Madsen writes on the belief:

“Many of us have heard the statement made—and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young—to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that’s a rumor? Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can’t find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young’s words, and he can’t find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement (see Diary of Charles C. Walker, August 1837, in Church Historical Department). Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn’t stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family.” (The Radiant Life, p. 91)
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I hope you aren't saying I was proclaiming that though.

Alaris
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:51 pm
inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:45 pm If we think that this is the telestial kingdom, then how do you believe that the progression to higher kingdoms happen? Can it happen during ones lifetime? Are there people who have gone from this world to the celestial kingdom? I don't know any examples. I guess one could argue that translated beings were moved to terrestrial kingdom, but how about getting in the celestial kingdom? It seems like it is not possible during this life. So are you really trying to argue some sort of MMP as Silver guessed? Or, do you admit that there are a difference between the post-resurrection kingdom of glories and the glory of this mortal world?

If this is the telestial kingdom, why is Satan allowed to be here?
I don't know the answers to those questions. I do like those questions though, thanks! However, I do know what Holland said in conference.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with MMP?! Why do you guys keep bringing that up? It's like you guys are obsessed with that subject. I don't get it. If anything, wouldn't being in the telestial kingdom currently be detrimental to MMP?
It's not your fault HapperCamper8! LOL! :) ... It's mine =\

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

True wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:06 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:03 pm
True wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:02 pm This is the thread where the dearly departed Bob Henstra would come in handy.
No idea who that is.
Bob wrote extensively about progression between kingdoms. He pretty much wrote a thesis on it. He sent it to me and it is fascinating.
Very interesting, thanks! I've looked up info on progression between kingdoms and read those for and against. Interesting stuff.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

alaris wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:08 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:51 pm
inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:45 pm If we think that this is the telestial kingdom, then how do you believe that the progression to higher kingdoms happen? Can it happen during ones lifetime? Are there people who have gone from this world to the celestial kingdom? I don't know any examples. I guess one could argue that translated beings were moved to terrestrial kingdom, but how about getting in the celestial kingdom? It seems like it is not possible during this life. So are you really trying to argue some sort of MMP as Silver guessed? Or, do you admit that there are a difference between the post-resurrection kingdom of glories and the glory of this mortal world?

If this is the telestial kingdom, why is Satan allowed to be here?
I don't know the answers to those questions. I do like those questions though, thanks! However, I do know what Holland said in conference.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with MMP?! Why do you guys keep bringing that up? It's like you guys are obsessed with that subject. I don't get it. If anything, wouldn't being in the telestial kingdom currently be detrimental to MMP?
It's not your fault HapperCamper8! LOL! :) ... It's mine =\
No worries. Just feel like I'm being attacked and not sure why?!

Alaris
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:10 pm
alaris wrote: January 25th, 2018, 3:08 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:51 pm
inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:45 pm If we think that this is the telestial kingdom, then how do you believe that the progression to higher kingdoms happen? Can it happen during ones lifetime? Are there people who have gone from this world to the celestial kingdom? I don't know any examples. I guess one could argue that translated beings were moved to terrestrial kingdom, but how about getting in the celestial kingdom? It seems like it is not possible during this life. So are you really trying to argue some sort of MMP as Silver guessed? Or, do you admit that there are a difference between the post-resurrection kingdom of glories and the glory of this mortal world?

If this is the telestial kingdom, why is Satan allowed to be here?
I don't know the answers to those questions. I do like those questions though, thanks! However, I do know what Holland said in conference.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with MMP?! Why do you guys keep bringing that up? It's like you guys are obsessed with that subject. I don't get it. If anything, wouldn't being in the telestial kingdom currently be detrimental to MMP?
It's not your fault HapperCamper8! LOL! :) ... It's mine =\
No worries. Just feel like I'm being attacked and not sure why?!
Well that aspect is certainly not on me. Some think it behooves them to police what the mysteries cannot be by contention ... such are normally best to just ignore.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:31 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:25 pm The prophet. I was sealed to my wife in the temple.
You are not actually sealed TO your wife. You are married to her, and you have had the blessings of Abraham Isaac and Jacob sealed upon each of you, and this is contingent upon your righteousness, of course. And then there is the Holy Spirit of Promise.....

The sealing ordinance of children to parents actually seals the children into the family unit. The marriage sealing ordinance does not say this. We all assume it does, but go do some proxy sealings, and listen carefully.
Hmmm, interesting. This got me thinking. I wonder if the whole sealing TO is just semantics? Howard W. Hunter said the following:
"Another temple ordinance is that of celestial marriage, where wife is sealed to husband and husband sealed to wife for eternity."
Either way, I feel in good company making mistakes like that! :) Thanks!

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