Serious question

[will]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree,

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

[marc]

According to your post, all your faith is in men. You mentioned nothing of Jesus Christ.

[Arenera]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree,

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

Where will you go?

[Joel]

Just know brains are good at delusion. Faith is pretending to know things you don't know, so you can always pretend more intensely if you want more peace for the time being and decide later what to do down the road for yourself.

[ParticleMan]

...
I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

Not knowing what you've consulted, here are just a couple resources on some of the concerns you mentioned:
http://ldsperspectives.com/episodes/bytitle/
http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/

But perhaps more importantly, questions that arise include:
Is there a root cause for your questioning?
Are you doing what invites the Spirit and not what doesn't?

[mcusick]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree,

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

1. The "no paid ministry" is a only a half-truth, because it is only true at the local level. They basically misled you and everyone else with talks like this:

I was visiting with the East German state secretary, Minister Gysi. At that time our temple at Freiberg, in East Germany, was under construction, along with two or three meetinghouses. Minister Gysi and I visited on a number of subjects, including our worldwide building program. He then asked, “Why is your church so wealthy that you can afford to build buildings in our country and throughout the world? How do you get your money?”

I answered that the Church is not wealthy but that we follow the ancient biblical principle of tithing, which principle is reemphasized in our modern scripture. I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg.

-Our Sacred Priesthood Trust

Saying "no paid ministry" leaves no wiggle room for apologetics. I knew about General Authority stipend since I was a teenager, so it didn't shock me. What was jarring is that they kept repeating the lie.

2. I've actually reluctantly found myself in the Joseph Smith was not a polygamist camp. It took me a long time, because it was hard for me to even consider that "history" could have been so wrong. My tipping point was in reading Andrew Ehat's "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances and the 1844 Mormon Succession Question". It became very clear to me that there are multiple contradictory parallel narratives. Emma apparently accepts the practice and gives Joseph new wives, then the next minute she's got no idea about it and Joseph is trying to convince her. It's like how Jesus meets Peter fishing in the synoptic gospels and he is introduced by Andrew in John's gospel. The two stories don't fit and cast a degree of doubt on both accounts.
The fact that the LDS church altered pro-monogamy sources to read in favor of polygamy, makes me extremely suspicious.

For example, the 5 Oct 1843 Journal.
This:
gave inst[r]uction to try those who were preaching teaching or preaching the doctrin of plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice ther[e]of— No man shall have but one wife
was changed to read so in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph (and D.H.C.):
Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise.

If it was so abundantly clear, historical records would not need to be altered.

Entertaining the possibility that Joseph Smith was a monogamist (like he and Emma claimed) would take a lot of study. Even after a great deal of study, I can understand that you may still maintain he engaged in polygamy. The history is very vague.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck and God bless through this trial of faith. I hope you can maintain faith in Christ in the process, wherever it leads you.

[Col. Flagg]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

The brethren are running a $30 billion corporation - it's wrong for them to be receiving what they do on the backs of the church and its members, but we've been warned not to put our trust or faith in the arm of the flesh and only in the gospel of our Savior - these are imperfect businessmen running a perfect gospel.

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree.

Joseph never practiced polygamy - several men in the early church saw the idea as quite appealing and attempted to affiliate the practice with his name and having originated with him through fabrications and deceit. Among these men were John C. Bennett, William Clayton, Orson Hyde and even Brigham Young. Joseph fought it tooth and nail all the way - he spoke out against it vehemently and had he lived a little longer, would have ex-communicated Brigham Young as he had planned a church disciplinary court for him before he was murdered but was never able to follow through with it. The rest is history.

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

Brigham Young was racist against black people and it was through him that no black person ever rec'd the priesthood until 1978 (it was a legal but right move by the church and had nothing to do with revelation). Joseph Smith actually ordained several black men to the priesthood when he was alive but Brigham ended all that when he took over as head of the church and prohibited any black man from holding the priesthood while falsely claiming that was how God wanted it. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a sad day in our history but was the result once again of Brigham's prejudice against colored people. And he was a serial polygamist with 55 wives - no man who is sensitive to the emotions and feelings of women and the bonds of love between two people can look upon polygamy as desirable. But he did. And many of his wives attested to how unhappy they were with him and divorced him even though they stood to live quite comfortably because of his status, position and money. Speaking of which, he even made the church his own personal bank account - when he died, he owed the church a million bucks. And just think, there is a university in Provo, UT named after him.

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

Bottom line my friend... put your trust and faith in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ which came through the Prophet Joseph Smith and never in the imperfect men who have led and guided it since.

[silk]

Just a note on the living allowance. This is from Gordon B. Hinckley in the 1985 October Conference.

I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

And it hasn't changed. From January of this year (2017):

“General Authorities leave their careers when they are called into full-time church service,” Hawkins said. “When they do so, they focus all of their time on serving the church, and are given a living allowance. The living allowance is uniform for all General Authorities. None of the funds for this living allowance come from the tithing of church members, but instead from proceeds of the church’s financial investments.”

Hopefully this helps to ease your mind if you were thinking that your tithing or fast offerings were going to support them.

[Alaris]

When I see posts like this my first instinct is, "Why doesn't that bother me? Like at all."

I don't mean that callously. The more I study the gospel the more deep the rabbit hole goes. Most LDS have no idea how deep it goes because they don't spend the time studying and applying the promise of ask, seek, and knock. The gospel is so immense and vast. Christianity has like 2 percent of this beautiful picture. Mainstream Mormonism still only barely breaks the surface to peek at the enormous iceberg of truth below. Yet all the keys to unlocking these mysteries are due to Joseph Smith and the Lord working through an uneducated farm boy.

Think about that for a second. You can leave Joseph Smith out of the equation and just look at the fruits. Where are the bitter fruits? They are not there.

Is the LDS church a bitter fountain or a sweet one?

Back to the main point. Adding layers upon layers to testimony makes it clear the spirits that campaign for polygamy claims against Joseph Smith and even the salaries of Apostles.

Testimony is from God. If he shows me this is all true then is it that hard to accept that the actual church of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gives a comfortable allotment to its leaders so they can dedicate all of their time to the building up of the Kingdom of God on earth? It's certainly something you can pray about but I humbly submit to you that there is another underlying issue that has brought you to your question as an earlier poster suggested. Something else in your life is amiss. This is not an issue that starts the path of questioning. Your time is better spent building your testimony by studying the scriptures daily - especially the Book of Mormon. There is a beautiful power in the Book made manifest that will bring to a head any darkness with which you are fighting. Along with prayer and a sincere desire to overcome, you can overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And as you do you will see this is His church. He's at the head. If there were any sort of corruption shenanigans He would likely not suffer them long.

[eddie]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree,

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

If a man works full time for the Church, I see nothing wrong with an allowance, our general authorities travel the world, Shouldn't the church help them with expenses?
It does not come from tithing,

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are;
first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..
Have faith, don't worry, pray and let the spirit guide
You, and don't listen to Joel!

[Yahtzee]

I've been there my friend. Apart from what's already been said, two things helped me, my favorite primary answers: scriptures and prayer. There's a reason they are the standard answers in any class.
Cling to the Book of Mormon. I know in my bones it is the word of God. When you make it central to your testimony, the other stuff doesn't seem to matter as much. (I know, it still matters. It just bothers me less.)
When I prayed about Brigham Young, my answer was that the Lord needed someone who could get the saints where He needed them. I felt peace after that. But only the Spirit can give you that peace.
Lastly, I had something in church history that really, really bothered me. Major decisions seemed to be made for political reasons and it was a bit testimony shattering. But I prayed. And was told it didn't matter for my salvation so not to worry about it. I tried to stop. I did the above. Focused on the Book of Mormon. Prayer. Service. Faith. Repentance. Rinse, repeat. It still bothered me, but not as much. 10 years later the Lord gave me the explanation.
He could have just done that in the first place, but it was a trial of my faith. Was I willing to stay the course without knowing why, save the Lord, God commanded me?
Hang in there. You're not alone and this is the Lord's church. The Lord has always used imperfect men, I mean, Moses murdered and tried to cover it up!
I hope you find something to bring you peace. It's not an easy place for our souls to be.
*edit for spelling

[justkeepswimming]

According to your post, all your faith is in men. You mentioned nothing of Jesus Christ.

Marc, do you believe OP can have Jesus w/o Mormonism and the baggage he spoke of?

[justkeepswimming]

But perhaps more importantly, questions that arise include:
Is there a root cause for your questioning?
Are you doing what invites the Spirit and not what doesn't?

Is it possible to quote accurate church history as found on the essays on lds.org w/o being suspected of having lost the spirit? Honest question. I have never understood this part of our culture.

I'm a little sensitive to these passive aggressive 'are you sinning' accusations because when I bring up material in the essays with members of my family, w/o fail the go to line is to question worthiness.

These things happened. We can't pretend they didn't happen. We can have testimonies and simultaneously be aware of what really happened in JSs life. To shame a member who is sincerely asking about our collective history is a fundamental flaw in all of us. It kills heartfelt dialogue.

[will]

, thanks everyone for your feed back, to some of the others, I do believe in Christ. I do question the roots of my faith, they are its foundation. I am willing to stay my course, and yes i believe there is nothing better, so its what i will hold to. However why the questions, I read alot and somethings dont add up, so if someone has figured this out why reinvent the wheel? Yes I question my beliefs, shouldnt we all? Many of your responses have been helpful and for that I thank you. Nothing amiss in my life, just trying to truthfully find anwsers to conflicting parts of history of the church, to which I dont know the anwsers to.

[sushi_chef]

sushi_ kinda guesstimates 14 year old bribe/bride was kinda trick/trap by heber c, long time freemason.

as to the rich and poor, scripture seems tell the poor has the promise but not for the rich....

And your hearts are not satisfied. And ye obey not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.
16 Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!
17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!
18 But blessed are the poor who are pure in heart, whose hearts are broken, and whose spirits are contrite, for they shall see the kingdom of God coming in power and great glory unto their deliverance; for the fatness of the earth shall be theirs.
19 For behold, the Lord shall come, and his recompense shall be with him, and he shall reward every man, and the poor shall rejoice;

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

lds church has been making friends with unrighteous mammon, rothschild for generations since the time of president woodruff.
jacob schiff lds
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UT ... f%22%20lds
church leaders under rich elites connections might be on the dangerous road, in that case.

[Alaris]

, thanks everyone for your feed back, to some of the others, I do believe in Christ. I do question the roots of my faith, they are its foundation. I am willing to stay my course, and yes i believe there is nothing better, so its what i will hold to. However why the questions, I read alot and somethings dont add up, so if someone has figured this out why reinvent the wheel? Yes I question my beliefs, shouldnt we all? Many of your responses have been helpful and for that I thank you. Nothing amiss in my life, just trying to truthfully find anwsers to conflicting parts of history of the church, to which I dont know the anwsers to.

Are you hanging on to anger, perhaps from your past? Are there any people from your life, past or present who you hold any ill feelings towards?

[Spaced_Out]

Ive been a member about 30 years, this is not a I dont believe discussion, just trying to make sense of it all, i go to church, I pay tithing, I live the best i can, ive prayed about the items bellow and I have no anwser.

1. General authorities recieve a living allowance, to be about 120000 plus other benefits per year, one of the main reasons I joined the church was that it was a all volunter non paid ministry. 120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Joseph smith had 37 wives, I can live with that, 9 of that were sealed to him were married to other men, some were on missions and didnt know or did not give consent? Emma did not give consent on at least one of them. Huhhh??? One was 14, ?? Again can someone please explain this, Ive done research andive read the church reasoning behind this, I dont agree,

There are many other things that dont seem in harmony with what i feel should be correct blacks and priesthood, racial comments by past authorities, Mountain medow masacre, Bringham Young and his wives ect ect. I question the source or root of the church. Any advice???

I question what I believe, or thought I believe. Again any advice?

First what God does is not your problem, if JS had many wives it is God's and JS issue to deal with. Most of the Apostles were earning way more money than that before being called to their positions. They would of been far richer if they were never called, and could of spent time with their families and enjoyed a well deserved retirement yet they work 18hour days into their 90ies and you have a problem with it.... A lot of my working career I have earned more than that, a doctor make 300k a year a hear surgeon make 3x that.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church - how the church is run an what happens is not for you or me to judge - the apostles live very furgal lives and modest houses etc.. there is no 'smell' of wealth on them - just humility. Go to other churches you smell the wealth and the arrogance and pride is on full display..

Seriously just read the Book of Mormon if you find it to be true then there is nothing else to discuss. The fact you have to come on an open forum and don;t get answers to your prays is more to do with you and fault finding. These are not the kind of questions we should be asking God for answers - but more like how can I serve. If we do the work we gain a testimony - that was stressed in the last general conference.

On this forum ever month or so we get some apostate posing some silly question about church history etc... pretending to be fully active but just stirring up trouble then laugh at us fighting among ourselves. I highly advise you not to go down that route as you will get some special attention that you might not like.......

[Dlight]

all you can do is focus on living the gospel the way Christ taught. Your testimony is shaken in the church or perhaps it's policies and leaders. That's fine because you don't have to have a major testimony of these things. You do need to seek a testimony of christ and learn to follow the Holy Ghost.

Is the church a place you can personally grow? You should be able to grow spiritually in any situation if you seek Christ first and learn to follow promptings.

The church is meant to be a place that exists so you can learn and grow and serve others and teach others as you feel inspired. A place for support and like minded individuals seeking to follow Christ.

In the D&C it repeatedly says teach nothing but repentance to this generation. Focus on the core doctrines of Christ since these are what matter the most to our salvation.

Joseph Smith was sealed to many women but my investigation tells me he had sexual relations with only his wife. Joseph Smith also ordained a black person to the priesthood.

What transpired after Joseph was taken from our midst follows a similar pattern to what is discussed in section 84 of the D&C when Moses was taken and the people were left with the lesser commandments or the "carnal commandments".

We still have Gods inspiration and guidance available to us, but all human flesh is weak and all are susceptible to gross error based on the doctrines of men and society.

None of us are immune to this, It's not easy to transcend societal conditioning, not even the prophets. No wonder it took time for blacks to receive the priesthood...if a prophet had sought God's will earlier on the master perhaps it would have happened sooner, but good doesn't always tell us what to do, he waits for us to ask. Once a prophet asked in deep prayer, the answer was to give blacks the priesthood.

As we see throughout the scriptures prophets sometimes fall short, we can't expect them to be perfect.

Thankfully the atonement is more powerful and Christ looks upon the heart and sees our intentions, but remember that with the same judgment we use on others will be the similar style of judgment for us. It is better not to judge others because we cant understand all the intricacies and situations that led them to have erroneous beliefs or fall short.

It is better to focus on serving god where you can, and not get too terribly hung up on these things as they really do nothing but distract from our true purpose in learning, which is to become more like Christ.

The truth is that we are seeking to become like Christ in a fallen world and in the end all things will be made known. But for now our limited mind can scarcely grasp the complexity of it all, and when we try to do so we risk becoming like the Jews of old who sought for things beyond their capacity and therefore had stumbling blocks placed before them.

[marc]

According to your post, all your faith is in men. You mentioned nothing of Jesus Christ.

Marc, do you believe OP can have Jesus w/o Mormonism and the baggage he spoke of?

Define "have Jesus."

Otherwise, my answer is yes and no. Enoch had Jesus w/o Mormonism. Moses had Jesus w/o Mormonism. Joseph Smith had Jesus w/o Mormonism. When I say Mormonism, I mean the Mormon church and its doctrines and traditions/policies today. But the real question is does the OP have Jesus because of Mormonism? If not, why not? How many of us "have Jesus" because of Mormonism? The glaring issue is the condemnation we are under (D&C 84), which keeps us on this dark side of the veil in our collective unbelief, unredeemed (Ether 4).

[gclayjr]

will,

120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Why do you care whether they make more or less than you do? I see too many who think that equality means equality of stuff, and if life is going to be fair, I must have as much stuff as my neighbor. It falls squarely into coveting.

By the way 120,000 per year is modest! It may be more than you make, It is more than I make, but not much more than I made before I retired. Maybe it is more than average, but it isn't a high salary. I'm sure most made more when they were privately employed, and could have made much more had they not accepted the call into Apostleship.

Put more energy into figuring out how to do the best you can do , and less time worry about how much more somebody else may have than you. I've got news for you. Even in the Celestial Kingdom somebody is going to have more than you. Get over it!


Regards,

George Clay

[gardener4life]

Just a note on the living allowance. This is from Gordon B. Hinckley in the 1985 October Conference.

I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

And it hasn't changed. From January of this year (2017):

“General Authorities leave their careers when they are called into full-time church service,” Hawkins said. “When they do so, they focus all of their time on serving the church, and are given a living allowance. The living allowance is uniform for all General Authorities. None of the funds for this living allowance come from the tithing of church members, but instead from proceeds of the church’s financial investments.”

Hopefully this helps to ease your mind if you were thinking that your tithing or fast offerings were going to support them.

I thought I might add to this. i was thinking about this recently because I teach in Sunday School and nobody has asked about it yet. But i think someday they will. Number one, part of why a limited few numbers of the brethren receive help is because of living like Joseph Smith. What does that mean and what do I mean by it? I mean that their temporal needs are met because of PROTECTING them from Satan attacking them. This is a good reason why yes we don't pay nearly all the clergy but some are taken care of to keep them out of the world. There is even a scripture in the D&C about Christ talking about keeping his chosen few prophets hidden from the world, and part of this is to keep them pure and not thinking about worldly things. If you think about it like that he's trying to get them to divert all their attention full time into being worthy to and to receive revelation and feeling the spirit so that their judgment isn't clouded by the world nor clouded by money. And a lot of those people are allowed to stay in the world and are righteous enough that they don't really need to be in this world anymore but are still so they can build up the work. At a certain point when you are righteous enough and have paid your dues then won't you be like the angels of God?

I'm pretty sure many angels in heaven don't work, in the traditional sense. Are you going to argue now that that violates the lay clergy rule? The main concept here is that ITS NOT a priestcraft. What's a priestcraft? Think back to Korihor and the order of nehors. They taught to enrich the self living beyond the means, grinding the face of the poor, and living a decadent lifestyle. It was way more than having; food, shelter, fuel, and clothing. The brethren have talked about staying in our needs and that those are food, shelter, fuel, and clothing (Dallin H Oaks recent talk). In a way you can also say that supporting the apostles and the prophets is similar to supporting the poor. They aren't living in the world, so they need support. What we think of as pay really depends on if you are living simple, extravagent, or however. And if the prophets and apostles can't be supported then what about your own kids? If you can't support a prophet of God then someone else could reason that you can't support family members because they are still sinning and the prophets probably aren't.

There are so many ways you could go with this in all kinds of directions really. But the main point is, we're allowed to help people. We're encouraged to help and serve others, and that by having charity to do so we will be blessed. Remember Amulek was told his whole household would be blessed tremendously by receiving Alma into his house for food and shelter.

For the most part if you compare it to how mega churches work, this is really done the way it should. Go look at a mega church. Investigate those people. A certain mega church in Houston for example, the head guy was spending big money on luxury cars. He has a collection of stuff that are big expensive things like Lamborghinis, BMWs...and when the hurricane hit he had to double back and explain to the media why his church wasn't open to receive refugees UNTIL people called him out on it.

Still worried about lay clergy now?

Use the spirit to help you with this. It's a small issue. Its just a matter of, are we building up the Lord's kingdom or building up Babylon more than an official lay clergyman rule. I will tell you though a number of apostles in the past told members to stay away from luxury cars. Why? Because it's building up Babylon and not the Lord's kingdom. I think that's a bigger issue than if the apostles and prophets are taken care of.

The following scripture also applies here; (taking care of the Lord's servants is the same as taking care of him. And don't we need a few blessings and encouragement in this direction?)

Matthew Chapter 25

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[ParticleMan]

But perhaps more importantly, questions that arise include:
Is there a root cause for your questioning?
Are you doing what invites the Spirit and not what doesn't?

Is it possible to quote accurate church history as found on the essays on lds.org w/o being suspected of having lost the spirit? Honest question. I have never understood this part of our culture.

I'm a little sensitive to these passive aggressive 'are you sinning' accusations because when I bring up material in the essays with members of my family, w/o fail the go to line is to question worthiness.

These things happened. We can't pretend they didn't happen. We can have testimonies and simultaneously be aware of what really happened in JSs life. To shame a member who is sincerely asking about our collective history is a fundamental flaw in all of us. It kills heartfelt dialogue.

I share your perspective. Indeed, there are less effective and even destructive tendencies in the culture by those who mean well, and assumption is a big one. Surely most of us have questions, but questions needn't shake faith nor cause others to assume the worst.

Is it not more effective to know where someone is coming from before attempting to offer specific advice?
Is not the Spirit the most important element in seeking answers?

One's testimony can be an anchor to one's faith such that any newly obtained knowledge, no matter how perplexing it may seem, can faze one's faith or turn it to doubt.

[e-eye2.0]

there is a reason faith is required right from the start and continually required throughout the process of discipleship. At some point you bump into the requirement and need for faith because you will never have all the answers in this life. Can’t remember if it was Elder Holland but I know one of them said doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. Questions are good, seeking the truth is good but if it gets to the point where your faith is diminishing step back. I think it’s much like building a rock wall. You have a pile of rocks and as you go along some of the rocks won’t seem to fit. Instead of trying to force them to fit or simply stopping the process of building the due to your current rock not fitting - set those rocks to the side and keep building, eventually they will fit.

[will]

Thanks for your responses, Again, I am not going apostate, I will hold to what i have, I know there is nothing better, 1. If i find my anwsers, so be it, 2 if I dont I will when i die, 3. Evaluating what i believe in and having questions on concerning points to me is a serious concern.

[will]

will,

120000+ a year is more than i have or probably will ever make, money aside I feel I was lied to. This is pay. it is taxed, it is not modest. What is the reasoning?????

Why do you care whether they make more or less than you do? I see too many who think that equality means equality of stuff, and if life is going to be fair, I must have as much stuff as my neighbor. It falls squarely into coveting.

By the way 120,000 per year is modest! It may be more than you make, It is more than I make, but not much more than I made before I retired. Maybe it is more than average, but it isn't a high salary. I'm sure most made more when they were privately employed, and could have made much more had they not accepted the call into Apostleship.

Put more energy into figuring out how to do the best you can do , and less time worry about how much more somebody else may have than you. I've got news for you. Even in the Celestial Kingdom somebody is going to have more than you. Get over it!


Regards,

George Clay

Not coveting, just told my whole life we dont have paid ministry. So yes, i questioned it. Telling me to get over it? Really?? I work hard to support my family, I am grateful for what i have been blessed with. I dont want something for nothing, or desire something that someone else has. You missed my point.