When it comes to verse 28 its a perfect description of the plains Indians as the lived in tents. Meso American civilizations from what I know are not known to live in tents.larsenb wrote:Actually, the argument that the land of Nephi is south of the land of Zarahemla and is higher in elevation than Zarahemla strongly implies that the River Sidon cannot go south. See the tail-end of this post.JohnnyL wrote:Alma 22:29 :
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."
It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.
1828 Webster: 18. The principal source of a stream; as the head of the Nile.
I see manipulation of content, not anything that shows it flowing north.
Regarding your interpretation of Alma 22:29, here is my explanation of what the writer of that verse is actually saying, in my strongly held view:
Alma 22:27 goes a long way in clarifying this issue. Why?
Alma 22, Verse 27, describes the extent of King’s (Lamoni’s father) land as follows:
1. It extends from the sea on the east to the sea on the west.
2. It was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness.
3. The narrow strip of wilderness also ran from the eastern sea to the western sea.
4. It extended “round about” on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla”. Verse 28 explains this situation, where it says: “yea, [and they were] also on the west of the land of Zarahemla in the borders by the seashore. He is describing a wilderness along the west sea shore, which is NORTH of the narrow strip of wilderness that impinges on the western coastline and this wilderness is WEST of the land of Zarahemla.
5. He is further describing the east-west boundary by saying that it extends from the wilderness boundary west of Zarahemla and goes through the borders of Manti and by the head of the River Sidon, which has been placed in the narrow strip of east-west wilderness.
In Verse 29, the writer says many Lamanites were also on the eastern seashore. So, you get the sense of almost a horseshoe encirclement of the Land of Zarahemla.
Now, where this gets confusing is if you take ‘at the head of the river Sidon’ as an adjective clause (my terminology) further describing “all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness.
The alternative reading is to take these clauses as attribute lists describing the entire border encompassing Nephite possessions. I.e., they owned:
1. all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness (we have seen that there is already Lamanite occupied wilderness to the west of Zarahemla).
2. the boundary delimited by the head of the river Sidon and extending east to west.
3. the extension of this boundary round about on the wilderness side (to the west of Zarahemla).
This reading of 29 is very much in keeping with the several verses which say one goes up to the land of Nephi and down to the land of Zarahemla.
With the land of Nephi being to the south of the land of Zarahemla, this means you won’t be able to get a south-running Sidon to go uphill (baring a New Madrid-type earthquake).
Book of Mormon verses that use “go up to the land of Nephi” or “go up among the Lamanites”, “went up to”. . . from the land of Zarahemla:
Omni 1:27; 1:28; Mosiah 7:1; 7:2; 7:4; 8:2; 9:3; 28:1; 28:5; 28:6; 28:7; 28:9; 29:3; Alma 17:8; 20:2; 26:23; 47:1; Helaman 4:4;
Book of Mormon verses that use “go down to the land of Zarahemla”, or variant . . . from the Land of Nephi:
Alma 27:5; 27:9
there aren't as many clear passages containing “go down to the land of Zarahemla” . . . from the land of Nephi. However, there are several other passages where various people are “going down to Zarahemla”, clearly indicating the city of Zarahemla is situated relatively low down in the land of Zarahemla and certainly in relation to the land of Nephi.
Verse 28 is in reference to the west border which the plain Indians would be west of Nauvoo or Zarahemla a good match. This verse talks about two borders along the shoreline one along Zarahemla being Lake Michigan and the other along the gulf coast. One of the mistakes you guys make is the statement about the forefathers. Its not refereeing to the Nephite forefathers which landed at first Inheritance but is referring to forefathers of the Lamanites specifically the Ishamealites. The land of Ishmeal is generally kept separate of the land of Nephi and is west of the Mississippi river. The Ishmealite fathers first Inheritance is in the west part of the land of Nephite along the gulf coast.
28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their (Lamanite) fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.