The real cities of light and places of refuge

[boo]

Would you ? If so how do you actions contrast with the Anti Nephite - Lehites? Or the early Christians who willing went to their deaths without resistance ?

I like what Orson Scott Card wrote on the topic of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies . You do remember that this was a group of murderers before their conversion right? Not your run of the mill church members. Former blood thirsty killers. Murder was their norm.

"You're missing the point. The people (Nephite and Ammonite) were being attacked. The Ammonites, bound by their oath, did not lift a hand to defend themselves. But the Nephites, being compassionate, went to war, not because they had a "warlike culture" (that was the Lamanites and rebel Nephites) but because they could not bear to see a righteous people suffering the slaughter of war. "To stand idly by while murderers commit murder, when protecting their victims is within your power, is not "pacifism," it's either cowardice or arrogance. My righteousness is worth more than your life, such pacifists say."

You can read his whole response here: http://www.nauvoo.com/response.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So do I correctly understand you to suggest that either the early Christians or the Anti Nephites should have defended themselves more vigorously .I am genuinely interested in your view . How does what I assume to be your view comport with the Saviors admonition about living by the sword and D C 45 : 68 which suggests that those who enter Zion are only those who "will not take his sword against his neighbor" . If you have mowed down your neighbors with your Glock or whatever will you be fit to live in Zion? Let me know what you think please.

[mirkwood]

So do I correctly understand you to suggest that either the early Christians or the Anti Nephites should have defended themselves more vigorously .I am genuinely interested in your view . How does what I assume to be your view comport with the Saviors admonition about living by the sword and D C 45 : 68 which suggests that those who enter Zion are only those who "will not take his sword against his neighbor" . If you have mowed down your neighbors with your Glock or whatever will you be fit to live in Zion? Let me know what you think please.

Do you believe we have the right to defend ourselves?

[Wolverine]

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Perhaps you need to go back and read revelations, D&C and BofM about the calamities heading our way. You think over a thousand members could live in your church building? Do you think you'll be safe from the mobs searching for food? You don't think these mobs wouldn't target LDS members home in search of food? Will your home and churches withstand earthquake's, tornadoes and other natural disasters?

The Lord will protect his flock wherever they are to be found. Just because some rank and file member has a dream and or vision doesn't make it true......Hiram Page anybody? Let's stop putting so much stock into what other people say who have no stewardship over us.

[Wolverine]

"I have had members of apostate cults come to me and bear their testimonies. They say that they have read and studied the revelations of self-styled prophets and have prayed about them and have received testimonies from the Holy Spirit that these so-called revelations were true. They have told me that they have even felt a burning in their bosoms as a sign of the truth of these things.

Yet the men who reportedly get these revelations were out of harmony with the Church, out of harmony with the Spirit of God, and their “revelations” were not of God.

But how could people get these alleged testimonies of the truth of these obviously erroneous revelations? They got them from Lucifer, who can appear as an angel of light, who can give false and lying revelations, and who can so mislead people that they are duped into believing that these alleged revelations and testimonies are true; so they turn their backs upon the actual truth to accept these falsehoods."

Elder Mark E. Petersen (“Revelation,” Address to religious educators, 24 August 1954. Cited in Charge to Religious Educators, 2nd ed. [Salt Lake City: Church Educational System and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982], 134.)

"Setting one's self up as a receiver of dreams and visions to guide the human family is not on the Lord's side of the line; and when men, as they have sometimes done in order to win their success along some line or another, have come to an individual or individuals and said, "I have had this dream and this is what the Lord wants us to do," you may know that they are not on the Lord's side of the line. The dreams and visions and revelations of God to the children of men have always come through his regularly appointed servant. You may have dreams and manifestations for your own comfort and for your own satisfaction, but you will not have them for the Church unless God appoints you to take the place that he gave to his prophets of old and in our day, and unless you have been divinely commissioned to do the thing he wants you to do." Pres. George Albert Smith (Conference Report, October 1945, 118-19.)

[Spaced_Out]

I have posted on this many time before that there have been a number of call outs in recent church history, Teton Dam disaster, Katrina, Last year in the Philippines to name a few. To think when the real disasters and tribulations come there will be no call outs. Hahhaaaaa :p :p :p :p , you guys have your heads so deeply buried in the sand and all is well in Zion that you refuse to acknowledge the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets of G_d.

Yes Matt 24 and section 45 of D&C - there is no getting around it, be at war or gather to the New Jerusalem (Jackson county as defined in that scripture)

D&C 45:68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

[DesertWonderer]

AVOW only had (has) part of the puzzle. I think it would also be helpful for us to understand the Church has received pressure from the US government to slow the rhetoric around preparedness from the pulpit. Used to be 2 year supply, now its more like 6 months. The focus from church leaders is accurate, that we prepare zion in our hearts and homes.

Please provide support for this statement.

I cannot give you what you are looking for, I'm sorry.

I thought it was made up. Thanks for clarifying.

[waverider]

I have posted on this many time before that there have been a number of call outs in recent church history, Teton Dam disaster, Katrina, Last year in the Philippines to name a few. To think when the real disasters and tribulations come there will be no call outs. Hahhaaaaa :p :p :p :p ,

There was a call out for the Teton Dam?? Can you please clarify what you mean? I think it’s pretty well recorded that people living in the towns below the dam were all still living in their homes and hadn't fled. Yes, there was an evacuation ordered about 30 minutes before the dam fully burst. An evacuation, after danger has been found to be imminent, is vastly different from a "predictive" call out to the mountains that is suggested by AVOW, JR, Hector, etc. So laugh all you want - but your point is far from proven.

you guys have your heads so deeply buried in the sand and all is well in Zion that you refuse to acknowledge the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets of G_d.

I think many here are in agreement that all is NOT well in Zion. I also think many of us believe the teachings of modern prophets of God that Zion will be built at some point in the near future in Jackson County. As such, our heads are far from buried.

[AI2.0]

If you look to an institution to be your light when the SHTF, you should expect the same reasoning and logic king Noah used on his people. It is in the nature of institutional leaders to do such things.

A few years ago I saw something folks on AVOW were suggesting - only endowed temple recommend holding members (and their children still living at home) would be allowed to go on the call out. No thought for the elderly, infirm. No compassionate thought in the discussion. Others would simply be left behind because they had not prepared themselves. The whole topic was devoid of any consideration for them, just the elite recommend holders.

The whole discussion was frightening. I was reminded of the story of King Noah when this discussion was happening. I tried to point it out, but was rebuked for being contentious. I still believe there is some warning directed specifically at the believing gentile Mormon people. We should take note.

Remember, the Book of Mormon was written to us, the gentiles. It is a warning of what we should expect to have happen to us. I choose to believe that this scenario with King Noah will repeat in our future. This story is a warning directed to us.

Mosiah 19:9 And the king commanded the people that they should flee before the Lamanites, and he himself did go before them, and they did flee into the wilderness, with their women and their children.

10 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did pursue them, and did overtake them, and began to slay them.

11 Now it came to pass that the king commanded them that all the men should leave their wives and their children, and flee before the Lamanites.

12 Now there were many that would not leave them, but had rather stay and perish with them. And the rest left their wives and their children and fled.

But Daryl, that's been our point. The AVOW folks you are referring to don't represent the beliefs of the LDS church. They have absolutely NO CLUE how the LDS church works. They probably didn't even listen to General Conference to hear the words of our leaders on how to help refugees all over the world. Take some time to listen to those talks and then tell me that you think the LDS church would EVER set up a program that excluded the elderly, infirm, poor etc, because it's obvious that they would not.

Simply put, the general consensus of the AVOW crowd is wrong. The church will NOT plan a 'call out' that only includes a small group of members. These people are wrong and it is not fair to judge the church by the wrong opinions of a few dreamers who are desperate to believe in their spiritual 'gifts' and their own righteousness. Now, maybe some break off sect will tell their people to leave their family members who aren't endowed or are less active, and go live in a tent city, but the LDS church won't do that.

[AI2.0]

I have posted on this many time before that there have been a number of call outs in recent church history, Teton Dam disaster, Katrina, Last year in the Philippines to name a few. To think when the real disasters and tribulations come there will be no call outs. Hahhaaaaa :p :p :p :p ,

There was a call out for the Teton Dam?? Can you please clarify what you mean? I think it’s pretty well recorded that people living in the towns below the dam were all still living in their homes and hadn't fled. Yes, there was an evacuation ordered about 30 minutes before the dam fully burst. An evacuation, after danger has been found to be imminent, is vastly different from a "predictive" call out to the mountains that is suggested by AVOW, JR, Hector, etc. So laugh all you want - but your point is far from proven.

you guys have your heads so deeply buried in the sand and all is well in Zion that you refuse to acknowledge the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets of G_d.

I think many here are in agreement that all is NOT well in Zion. I also think many of us believe the teachings of modern prophets of God that Zion will be built at some point in the near future in Jackson County. As such, our heads are far from buried.

They like to claim there was a 'call out' for some of these things, but I think they are equating an evacuation order with a 'call out'. They are pretty desperate to try to support their gospel hobby of 'call outs'.

I'm pretty sure that there were warnings and knowledge that the dam was breaking and so there were evacuation orders. I don't remember there being anything other than evacuation orders for Katrina.


I think spaced out ought to provide evidence that these were 'call outs' and not just orders to evacuate.

[AI2.0]

"I have had members of apostate cults come to me and bear their testimonies. They say that they have read and studied the revelations of self-styled prophets and have prayed about them and have received testimonies from the Holy Spirit that these so-called revelations were true. They have told me that they have even felt a burning in their bosoms as a sign of the truth of these things.

Yet the men who reportedly get these revelations were out of harmony with the Church, out of harmony with the Spirit of God, and their “revelations” were not of God.

But how could people get these alleged testimonies of the truth of these obviously erroneous revelations? They got them from Lucifer, who can appear as an angel of light, who can give false and lying revelations, and who can so mislead people that they are duped into believing that these alleged revelations and testimonies are true; so they turn their backs upon the actual truth to accept these falsehoods."

Elder Mark E. Petersen (“Revelation,” Address to religious educators, 24 August 1954. Cited in Charge to Religious Educators, 2nd ed. [Salt Lake City: Church Educational System and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982], 134.)

"Setting one's self up as a receiver of dreams and visions to guide the human family is not on the Lord's side of the line; and when men, as they have sometimes done in order to win their success along some line or another, have come to an individual or individuals and said, "I have had this dream and this is what the Lord wants us to do," you may know that they are not on the Lord's side of the line. The dreams and visions and revelations of God to the children of men have always come through his regularly appointed servant. You may have dreams and manifestations for your own comfort and for your own satisfaction, but you will not have them for the Church unless God appoints you to take the place that he gave to his prophets of old and in our day, and unless you have been divinely commissioned to do the thing he wants you to do." Pres. George Albert Smith (Conference Report, October 1945, 118-19.)

Wow, that's a great quote. It clearly puts people like Julie Rowe and Hector Sosa Jr. on notice. Sometimes it seems so bizarre that as LDS members, we're even arguing over this!

[DesertWonderer]

If you look to an institution to be your light when the SHTF, you should expect the same reasoning and logic king Noah used on his people. It is in the nature of institutional leaders to do such things.

A few years ago I saw something folks on AVOW were suggesting - only endowed temple recommend holding members (and their children still living at home) would be allowed to go on the call out. No thought for the elderly, infirm. No compassionate thought in the discussion. Others would simply be left behind because they had not prepared themselves. The whole topic was devoid of any consideration for them, just the elite recommend holders.

The whole discussion was frightening. I was reminded of the story of King Noah when this discussion was happening. I tried to point it out, but was rebuked for being contentious. I still believe there is some warning directed specifically at the believing gentile Mormon people. We should take note.

Remember, the Book of Mormon was written to us, the gentiles. It is a warning of what we should expect to have happen to us. I choose to believe that this scenario with King Noah will repeat in our future. This story is a warning directed to us.

Mosiah 19:9 And the king commanded the people that they should flee before the Lamanites, and he himself did go before them, and they did flee into the wilderness, with their women and their children.

10 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did pursue them, and did overtake them, and began to slay them.

11 Now it came to pass that the king commanded them that all the men should leave their wives and their children, and flee before the Lamanites.

12 Now there were many that would not leave them, but had rather stay and perish with them. And the rest left their wives and their children and fled.

But Daryl, that's been our point. The AVOW folks you are referring to don't represent the beliefs of the LDS church. They have absolutely NO CLUE how the LDS church works. They probably didn't even listen to General Conference to hear the words of our leaders on how to help refugees all over the world. Take some time to listen to those talks and then tell me that you think the LDS church would EVER set up a program that excluded the elderly, infirm, poor etc, because it's obvious that they would not.

Simply put, the general consensus of the AVOW crowd is wrong. The church will NOT plan a 'call out' that only includes a small group of members. These people are wrong and it is not fair to judge the church by the wrong opinions of a few dreamers who are desperate to believe in their spiritual 'gifts' and their own righteousness. Now, maybe some break off sect will tell their people to leave their family members who aren't endowed or are less active, and go live in a tent city, but the LDS church won't do that.

They probably also missed the VERY clear explanation of the importance of proper authority / keys.

[Spaced_Out]

Globally there are 13million refugees as of 2016 and the tribulations have not even started. It is always it won't happen to me - but to others, you are mistaken.
Many many prophecies and scriptures about fleeing in the last days - not just a few dreamers on on some website, plus a lot of Orthodox Christians believe it as well as they also read the scriptures and and come to the same conclusion and they also have visions as per Amos prophecy - It is a total denial of scriptures that there will be visions by young and old and male and female.

[waverider]

I have posted on this many time before that there have been a number of call outs in recent church history, Teton Dam disaster, Katrina, Last year in the Philippines to name a few. To think when the real disasters and tribulations come there will be no call outs. Hahhaaaaa :p :p :p :p ,

There was a call out for the Teton Dam?? Can you please clarify what you mean? I think it’s pretty well recorded that people living in the towns below the dam were all still living in their homes and hadn't fled. Yes, there was an evacuation ordered about 30 minutes before the dam fully burst. An evacuation, after danger has been found to be imminent, is vastly different from a "predictive" call out to the mountains that is suggested by AVOW, JR, Hector, etc. So laugh all you want - but your point is far from proven.

you guys have your heads so deeply buried in the sand and all is well in Zion that you refuse to acknowledge the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets of G_d.

I think many here are in agreement that all is NOT well in Zion. I also think many of us believe the teachings of modern prophets of God that Zion will be built at some point in the near future in Jackson County. As such, our heads are far from buried.

They like to claim there was a 'call out' for some of these things, but I think they are equating an evacuation order with a 'call out'. They are pretty desperate to try to support their gospel hobby of 'call outs'.

I'm pretty sure that there were warnings and knowledge that the dam was breaking and so there were evacuation orders. I don't remember there being anything other than evacuation orders for Katrina.


I think spaced out ought to provide evidence that these were 'call outs' and not just orders to evacuate.

Found this on the Idaho Bureau of Homeland Security:

Downstream, the Madison and Fremont County Sheriffs and their officers responded to calls from the dam operators warning them of the imminent collapse. The sheriffs’ offices warned local resident’s largely by word-of-mouth. Officers called people who they knew lived in the path of the floodwaters and drove to homes in threatened towns warning residents to evacuate. This method effectively evacuated local towns, preventing a much more devastating loss of live; however, the collapse still claimed the lives of 11 people.

http://bhs.idaho.gov/Pages/History/DamCollapse.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It also has a timeline. From the report it seems the earliest the warning was given was around 10:45 am. The full breach was recorded at 11:57 am.
Based on this, I would say there was certainly not a "callout" before the flood hit.

[waverider]

Globally there are 13million refugees as of 2016 and the tribulations have not even started. It is always it won't happen to me - but to others, you are mistaken.
Many many prophecies and scriptures about fleeing in the last days - not just a few dreamers on on some website, plus a lot of Orthodox Christians believe it as well as they also read the scriptures and and come to the same conclusion and they also have visions as per Amos prophecy - It is a total denial of scriptures that there will be visions by young and old and male and female.

It is also a total denial of the words of a prophet of God to go around spreading personal dreams as doctrine.

In these latter days, we affirm that only the prophet may receive revelation through the Holy Ghost for the entire Church. Some forget this, as when Aaron and Miriam tried to convince Moses to agree with them. But the Lord taught them and us. He said:
“If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him. …
“With him will I speak mouth to mouth.”
Sometimes the adversary tempts us with false ideas that we may confuse with the Holy Ghost. I testify that faithfulness in obeying the commandments and keeping our covenants will protect us from being deceived. Through the Holy Ghost, we will be able to discern those false prophets who teach for doctrine the commandments of men.
As we receive the inspiration of the Holy Ghost for ourselves, it is wise to remember that we cannot receive revelation for others. I know of a young man who told a young woman, “I’ve had a dream that you are to be my wife.” The young woman pondered that statement and then responded, “When I have the same dream, I’ll come and talk to you.”

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

Of course our Joel is correct when he said "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions", no one is claiming he is not correct.

[Wolverine]

I have posted on this many time before that there have been a number of call outs in recent church history, Teton Dam disaster, Katrina, Last year in the Philippines to name a few. To think when the real disasters and tribulations come there will be no call outs. Hahhaaaaa :p :p :p :p , you guys have your heads so deeply buried in the sand and all is well in Zion that you refuse to acknowledge the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets of G_d.

Yes Matt 24 and section 45 of D&C - there is no getting around it, be at war or gather to the New Jerusalem (Jackson county as defined in that scripture)

D&C 45:68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

.....lol we have our heads buried in the sand....says the one that is so gullible as to lap up everything a regular member says about a "call-out." Not everyone will be gathered to Jackson County. There will still be Stakes of Zion the world over. Brigham Young once stated the Saints of God will barely escape the calamities that are coming. I do believe that here in the US things will get so bad that people will flee to the Rocky Mountains for Safety because we will be the ones holding up the Constitution and will be a peace. I only believe this because actual Church leaders have prophesied of this and seen it in vision.

[Spaced_Out]

The fleeing has started in Chicago - the place where it all begins according to JS prophecy.
Rich Flee "Crime Infested Hell Hole" Chicago Amid Racial Strife, Civil Unrest

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-1 ... vil-unrest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Spaced_Out]

It is not just Chicago, time to get your bunker ready: Why Are Thousands Of Millionaires Fleeing Chicago And Other Major Cities Around The World?
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/arch ... -the-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Faith]

Quick note, how would people be protected from nuclear fallout, plagues, etc. if those things are to happen in the future while residing in tents? You can make a home pretty secure...

I'd rather trust the prophet's invitation to gather (wherever it may be) and trust that God will provide miraculous ways and miracles to keep those who gathered - protected. Will people die and suffer trials? Sure, but it will all be for a purpose.

I shutter at the thought of staying in my home if there is chaos and destruction around, or people seeking to rob and plunder and murder. I would much rather be away from my home in a place of refuge that the Lord has provided. And I think it will be away from our homes and churches at some point.

[shadow]

Quick note, how would people be protected from nuclear fallout, plagues, etc. if those things are to happen in the future while residing in tents? You can make a home pretty secure...

I'd rather trust the prophet's invitation to gather (wherever it may be) and trust that God will provide miraculous ways and miracles to keep those who gathered - protected. Will people die and suffer trials? Sure, but it will all be for a purpose.

I shutter at the thought of staying in my home if there is chaos and destruction around, or people seeking to rob and plunder and murder. I would much rather be away from my home in a place of refuge that the Lord has provided. And I think it will be away from our homes and churches at some point.

I'm kind of opposite. I can think of no better place than to be at my home if there is chaos and destruction, but that's just because of where I live. However, if I were living downtown in any large city I would most likely be nervous in that situation.
Our homes are supposed to be places of refuge.

[boo]

So do I correctly understand you to suggest that either the early Christians or the Anti Nephites should have defended themselves more vigorously .I am genuinely interested in your view . How does what I assume to be your view comport with the Saviors admonition about living by the sword and D C 45 : 68 which suggests that those who enter Zion are only those who "will not take his sword against his neighbor" . If you have mowed down your neighbors with your Glock or whatever will you be fit to live in Zion? Let me know what you think please.

Do you believe we have the right to defend ourselves?

To defend our selves ? Yes . I think we have no right to kill people to defend our possessions including food storage . In fact I think the scriptures teach exactly the opposite .Matt 5 :42" give to him that asketh" ,D & C 88 : 123 " learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires ". If we are unwilling to love the Savior enough to follow his admonition now how can we expect to be invited to the wedding feast later.

[mirkwood]

To defend our selves ? Yes . I think we have no right to kill people to defend our possessions including food storage . In fact I think the scriptures teach exactly the opposite .Matt 5 :42" give to him that asketh" ,D & C 88 : 123 " learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires ". If we are unwilling to love the Savior enough to follow his admonition now how can we expect to be invited to the wedding feast later.

Then perhaps you can show me where someone (besides yourself) said this:

If you have mowed down your neighbors with your Glock or whatever

Because, this:

those who "will not take his sword against his neighbor"

is not the same thing as defending oneself.