Changing Church Teachings on Tithing with Ellipses

[rewcox]

What a drastic difference. I had my temple recommend stripped from me over 4 1/2 years ago over this issue. I told my leaders I had searched the scriptures diligently, prayed earnestly to the Lord and told them His answer to me. They didn't like the Lords answer to me. I also told them I knew I was a unprofitable servant, and I was doing my best to fulfill my covenants to live the law of consecration. My time, talents, money is the Lords. I live a modest life, live paycheck to paycheck, day to day, and even go without some basic necessities because I give to others who have less than me. I informed my leaders of the many family and friends of mine who were being rejected any help from the church and the Lord told me the church doesn't need my money, but rather the poor who I know do. Both my Stake President and Bishop could have cared less what the Lord told me. They even told me I was not listening to the brethren and therefore I could not possibly be listening to the spirit of the Lord as if they are one and the same. I was told I was being deceived by Satan. Yet it is supposedly between me and the Lord. Nope, It's only between you and the Lord as long as it conforms with the living. Sometimes I wonder if we even believe in personal revelation nowadays. Sadly, It's all lip service to me right now. Conform with the living or you are out of here. I got the memo. I have many family and friends who have been humiliated, I have been humiliated by my leaders for simply striving to serve others and to feed his sheep. The Lord knows the righteous desires of my heart. I serve God to the best of my ability and though the Lord has accepted my sacrifice the church does not. But at least I have peace knowing I am listening to His voice and living according to His will. It is really the only thing that is giving me the strength to continue on this path.

Thanks for your comments SH. Every time I see your name I think of Tennis Shoe Adventure Series.

[shadow]

Is it okay to quote Elder Orson Hyde on tithing? (he was President of the Quorum of the Twelve right around the time of this quote and remained so until 1875):

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See DandC 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See DandC 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

Orson Hyde also said that the church needed to go back and fight for their land that was taken after they were expelled. Brigham Young then quoted the D&C where the Lord said the lands of Zion would need to be purchased and specifically not possessed by means of bloodshed. I like Orson, but he was wrong on many topics.

Today (as always) in the church the poor, like everyone, are asked to pay tithing. What they are short of thereafter, the church welfare system helps provide. I've not seen anyone go without bread because they payed tithing.
I have been a part of service activities at the bishops storehouse (I suggest many of you here ask to serve there). I've seen all the food in there. I've even been in there when patrons were there filling their carts. I know people who have had their rent/mortgage and other bills, even car payments, paid by their bishop.

[jbalm]

For a law that some claim is not about the money, there sure are a lot of specific teachings about the money.

Can we get a similarly detailed breakdown of the resultant blessings?

[Lizzy60]

I personally know people who have been refused help by their bishops. It was because they would not go on the government dole, and they told the Bishop they had received personal revelation that they should not take government welfare. When others have stepped in to provide help for them (widows and children with no ability to earn enough to provide even a meager existence for their families) the bishop then asked "where is your tithing on this money people give you?" Shameful.
This is happening in Utah, not some third world country.

[rewcox]

For a law that some claim is not about the money, there sure are a lot of specific teachings about the money.

Can we get a similarly detailed breakdown of the resultant blessings?

You haven't had any?

[Lizzy60]

I have received many blessings, most of them non-financial.

[Lizzy60]

Thanks Joel! And thanks brian for that quote from Orson Hyde. Love it!

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing." -The Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow manual

Mosiah 4:24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

Today, even if you have not, you are required to give. But that is NOT supported by scripture. The edit quote from Lorenzo Snow is interesting and telling. Why not just quote the whole thing? Simple answer is, it's not in agreement with today's teachings and practices. Why else leave it out? Why even quote it at all? Why does our standard works bible dictionary and indexes fail to mention Deut. 14:28-29, which states:

" At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Why ignore it and leave it out? Because it's not in agreement with today's teachings and practices. The Lorenzo Snow quote unedited also happens to follow along the same lines as Joseph Smith's inspired version of Genesis 14 which states...

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.” (Emphasis added.)

Abraham paid tithes of his increase, the amount "more than that which he had need". Practically all scriptures state that tithing is to be paid based on increase ( NOT INCOME). Why? Tithing on income hurts the poor whereas increase helps the poor. Christ ministry was centered on serving the poor, not taking from them. The modern LDS church either ignores or edits earlier teachings that go contrary to current practices. Just compare yesterday's teachings with the current.

Here is Orson Hyde (the past) who Brian already quoted...

The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

According to Orson Hyde it is against the Celestial Law to take the food off the plate of the hungry. I agree!! Christ NEVER took the food of the plate of the hungry, rather he feed them. Melchizedek and King Benjamin would also agree with Orson Hyde. This quote also compliments Genesis 14. I also LOVE the latter part of the quote that rings so true with me...

"The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father."

But the poor today are told to pay tithing before feeding their family, before taking care of their basic necessities of life or they are condemned and forbidden to enter the House of the Lord even though it is said that tithing is to be between them and the Lord. It clearly is not. At least not in my situation. Christ feed the hungry and was the greatest defender of the poor. He even said, "the poor are my people." I believe it is hypocritical of our leaders who do not have a care in the world to be exempt from tithing when they have way more than they need yet we demand the widow with 5 children to pay tithing off her welfare check or they are refused further help and denied temple blessings. It just isn't right imho.

Even if one has the law written in their heart and following the Spirit of the Lord, if it does not correlate with today's leaders, you will lose your recommended and be condemned with fire.

Now compare Orson Hyde's quote (past) with today's teachings... (One of many)

"If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)

What a drastic difference. I had my temple recommend stripped from me over 4 1/2 years ago over this issue. I told my leaders I had searched the scriptures diligently, prayed earnestly to the Lord and told them His answer to me. They didn't like the Lords answer to me. I also told them I knew I was a unprofitable servant, and I was doing my best to fulfill my covenants to live the law of consecration. My time, talents, money is the Lords. I live a modest life, live paycheck to paycheck, day to day, and even go without some basic necessities because I give to others who have less than me. I informed my leaders of the many family and friends of mine who were being rejected any help from the church and the Lord told me the church doesn't need my money, but rather the poor who I know do. Both my Stake President and Bishop could have cared less what the Lord told me. They even told me I was not listening to the brethren and therefore I could not possibly be listening to the spirit of the Lord as if they are one and the same. I was told I was being deceived by Satan. Yet it is supposedly between me and the Lord. Nope, It's only between you and the Lord as long as it conforms with the living. Sometimes I wonder if we even believe in personal revelation nowadays. Sadly, It's all lip service to me right now. Conform with the living or you are out of here. I got the memo. I have many family and friends who have been humiliated, I have been humiliated by my leaders for simply striving to serve others and to feed his sheep. The Lord knows the righteous desires of my heart. I serve God to the best of my ability and though the Lord has accepted my sacrifice the church does not. But at least I have peace knowing I am listening to His voice and living according to His will. It is really the only thing that is giving me the strength to continue on this path.

Joseph Smith was all about redeeming Zion but he failed. We will continue to fail as long as we keep practicing tithing the way we are and until drastic changes are made, there will always be poor among us and Zion is will always be out of sight. We can never have all things in common with the way tithing is taught and expected to be followed today. We need to open gates to the House of the Lord to the poor so we may start to have all things in common and start becoming more equal in all things. "That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;" (D&C 78:5-6). We need to be filling up all these empty temples by allowing all, from the least to the greatest to partake in the blessings. Open the doors to the poor and the temple will no longer be empty, rather they will be full like noone has ever imagined. But until things change I suspect it will be as Joseph Smith and Hugh Nibley so eloquently state...

I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires, as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth and hell: the Elders must know them all, to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs, but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus.

AMEN! Your experience parallels mine in some pretty significant ways, except that God has not asked me to explain how I pay my tithing to my leaders, and they have not asked for specifics. That could change in a heartbeat, however. I value my relationship with Christ more than I value my temple recommend. Christ does know our hearts -- how does He feel when we fear our leaders and family more than Him?

[jbalm]

For a law that some claim is not about the money, there sure are a lot of specific teachings about the money.

Can we get a similarly detailed breakdown of the resultant blessings?

You haven't had any?

I've heard some say that blessings often come in the form of a test. And one of those tests might be not having enough money.

So if that counts, then I've had some blessings from tithing.

Otherwise...nope.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Thanks for your comments SH. Every time I see your name I think of Tennis Shoe Adventure Series.

/:) Never heard of it. Did you ever finish Approaching Zion? The last chapter, the meaning of the atonement has kept me up many nights and suspect it will be years before I can dissect it all. One of the most detailed and encompassing talks on the Atonement I have ever read. Nibley takes it to places I have yet to see anybody else come close to. Don't know of any talks on the atonement that are comparable. Maybe you know of a sermon by President Monson that expounds on the atonement that I can read?? Or a sermon by him that expounds on Zion? I've searched but to no avail. If you know of any I would be most interested in reading since both topics have been weighing heavily on my mind.

[Joel]

What’s in the Ellipsis? George Albert Smith on Tithing



Yesterday we published a blogpost about a Church manual on Lorenzo Snow that used an ellipsis to imply that Snow was saying every “man, woman, and child” should pay tithing rather than “every man, woman, and child who has means” (underline mine) should pay tithing.

Well, we came across another ellipsis, but this time in the George Albert Smith manual. Below is how it appears in the manual:

The Lord has given us the privilege of contributing one-tenth of our interest, for His Church, for the development of His work in the world. Those who pay their tithing receive their blessing. … We cannot expect to earn blessings without earnest effort. We will be required to make what appears to some to be sacrifices. I suppose people think when they pay their tithing that they are making a sacrifice, but they are not; they are making a real investment that will return an eternal dividend. Our Heavenly Father gives us all that we have. He places all in our hands, authorizing us to retain for our own use nine-tenths of it, and then He asks that we put His tenth where He directs, where He knows it will accomplish the most good in developing His Church.

When we heard the reports this morning of this great Church [during a session of general conference], the financial report impressed me much—to know that a great organization like this, with its multitudes of people, functioning in so many ways, in the midst of the world’s turmoil and distress is in such a condition that one of the Presidency of the Church could stand here and truthfully say to us this Church is out of debt. With the nations and most of the people in debt, yet the Church has been so managed that it is out of debt. Let us think about it. Let us sustain the Church. Let us follow the active leadership of the Church. Let us so live that the Lord can bless us as He blesses the Church.

See the ellipsis in the top half of the first paragraph? Let’s see what was left out (interesting things emphasized/underlined by me and comments added in brackets):

The Lord has given us the privilege of contributing one-tenth of our interest, for His Church, for the development of His work in the world. Those who pay their tithing receive their blessing. [ELLIPSIS BEGINS] If we do not desire the blessing, we may withhold our contribution. The Lord promises His blessing if we honor His law and not otherwise.

Everything that He has asked us to do is for our good, not for somebody else’s benefit particularly, though, of course, it benefits others when we set a good example. With this great body of Priesthood and the membership of the Church assembled here, what an influence we ought to have, if we are keeping the commandments of the Lord.

The President referred to the fact, this morning, that there were offices in the Church, and that men who hold those offices ought not to expect to hold them unless they magnify them. Why? Because they receive no benefit from it, only as they keep the commandments of the Lord and magnify their callings. It is of no particular advantage to be a High Priest or a Seventy or an Elder in this Church, just to hold that office. But if we live up to the teachings of the Lord, if we do what He asks us to do, then we have promise of a blessing. The Lord, all the years from the beginning of time, has been ready to bless His children whenever they will permit Him to do it.

There are some who do things they ought not to do, and yet they hope for a blessing. We sing: “God Bless America.” What a wonderful hymn that is ! How beautifully it is sung in large congregations ! But God cannot bless America if the people who live in America refuse to keep His commandments. We must earn the blessing if we would receive it.

We are commanded by the Lord to teach our children what they should do, that they should have faith, that they should repent, and that they should be baptized when eight years of age ; and He says that if we fail in our responsibility, the sin be upon our heads. What does that mean ? It means, to me, that if our children fall away because of our neglect and because of our carelessness, there will come a time when we realize that we did not prepare them for the blessings the Lord wanted to give them, and the result is that they have failed to receive the blessings and the sorrow will be upon our own heads.

I am grateful that I belong to a church that does not compel obedience. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not coerce. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of love, intelligence, a wonderful guide for our lives. That is what it is for. It is for everybody. Yet we find people who resist the very thing that would make them happy. They will not live the Gospel but seek happiness only in the pleasures of life that will not endure.

I think this great organization that we belong to ought to be able to set such an example that people in our neighborhoods, not members of the Church, seeing our good works, would be constrained to glorify the name of our Heavenly Father. That is the way I feel with regard to that. All that we need to do is to set an example, be good men and good women, and they will observe it. Then perhaps they will afford us the opportunity to teach them the things that they do not know.

Every blessing that we desire must be earned by obeying the law upon which that blessing is conditioned. Now, we understand that, brethren and sisters. How unwise we are if we fail, if we ourselves decline to do the thing that will earn us a blessing, when we know that we cannot obtain it in any other way except to earn it. That is the difference in the attitude of those who understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the people of the world. I have had people tell me : “Oh, it doesn’t make so much difference what you do. After a while everybody will be saved in the Kingdom of God.” It used to be quite customary when I was in the mission field in early days, to hear that. That is what the devil is telling the world. That is the way the Adversary teaches. If he can just keep them doing wrong all the time, and neglecting that which is right, he has them just where he wants them to be, and he has us where he wants us, when we fail to do right.

THE PRIESTHOOD TO BE HONORED

To be ordained to the Priesthood may not prove a blessing. We should not at any time feel that it will be a blessing to us, unless we honor it, unless we magnify it, and have in our hearts the desire that the Lord intended we should have, when He bestowed that gift upon us, and we should always desire to do good.

What a wonderful group we have enrolled in this organization! Lovers of all that is good and beautiful, marvelous choirs that come from different parts of the Church to sing for us here ; to supplement the delight that the Tabernacle Choir and Organ give to us ; this lovely build- ing in which to meet, not another like it in the world. We have every blessing that the world has anywhere, plus the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course, the world does not understand it if we say it that way, but we ought to understand it. Everything that I can find that is good in any- church in all the world, is a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No other church can say that. This is the Lord’s Church. I sometimes hear people speak of it as “our church.”

This is the Lord’s Church. Our Heavenly Father ordained that it should come at this particular period of the world’s history, and He directed that it receive the name of His beloved Son. Fortunate are we if while we are members of it we live up to the opportunities that it offers, lest we fall into transgression and lose our faith and forfeit the blessing that the Lord desired us to possess.

ADVICE TO SEEK FOR IMPROVEMENT

Now, brethren, let us do better than we have ever done before. Let us renew our determination to be real Latter-day Saints, and not just make-believe. I do not think I ought to be talking just like that to this group, because I feel that perhaps the cream of the Church, very much of it, is in this building; but I do not know anybody who can not do a little better than he has been doing, if he makes up his mind.

I think that with the distress everywhere, with the prediction that the Lord made in the first Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, that “peace should be taken from the earth,” we must feel that that time has come. Surely we ought to take stock of ourselves, and our homes should be the abiding place of prayer and gratitude and thanksgiving. Husbands should be kind to their wives, and wives considerate of their husbands. Parents should hold the love of their children by their righteous living. Our homes would then not only be the abiding place of prayer and thanksgiving, but would be the place where our Father could bestow His choicest blessings, because of our worthiness.

I pray that the peace that cometh from our Heavenly Father may abide in our hearts and in our homes, that we who have been honored by fellowship in the Church of His Beloved Son may appreciate that honor every day, and so live when the race is run that we shall have earned an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom. We must not surrender to temptation, but should meet our problems in the spirit of love and kindness toward all men, ever serving God and keeping His commandments. And we are always serving Him when we are blessing our kind ; do not forget that.

FAITH SHOWN BY GOOD WORKS

[ELLIPSIS ENDS]

We cannot expect to earn blessings without earnest effort. We will be required to make what appears to some to be sacrifices. I suppose people think when they pay their tithing that they are making a sacrifice, but they are not ; they are making a real investment that will return an eternal dividend. Our Heavenly Father gives us all that we have. He places all in our hands, authorizing us to retain for our own use nine-tenths of it, and then He asks that we put His tenth where He directs, where He knows it will accomplish the most good in developing His Church.

When we heard the reports this morning of this great Church, the financial report impressed me much. To know that a great organization like this, with its multitudes of people, functioning in so many ways, in the midst of the world’s turmoil and distress is in such a condition that one of the Presidency of the Church could stand here and truthfully say to us this Church is out of debt. With the nations and most of the people in debt, yet the Church has been so managed that it is out of debt. Let us think about it. Let us sustain the Church. Let us follow the advice of the leadership of the Church.

[/b]

The point? Don’t assume the ellipsis retains the original meaning (as shown yesterday) and don’t assume it is just a few words (as shown above).

[shadow]

I personally know people who have been refused help by their bishops. It was because they would not go on the government dole, and they told the Bishop they had received personal revelation that they should not take government welfare. When others have stepped in to provide help for them (widows and children with no ability to earn enough to provide even a meager existence for their families) the bishop then asked "where is your tithing on this money people give you?" Shameful.
This is happening in Utah, not some third world country.

That's one side of the story, what's the bishops side? He may think things went down differently.
In any case, It may have happened, but it's not happening, as in its not commonplace. Those bishops will have to answer for what they do. It's a calling I wouldn't want.

[rewcox]

Thanks for your comments SH. Every time I see your name I think of Tennis Shoe Adventure Series.

/:) Never heard of it. Did you ever finish Approaching Zion? The last chapter, the meaning of the atonement has kept me up many nights and suspect it will be years before I can dissect it all. One of the most detailed and encompassing talks on the Atonement I have ever read. Nibley takes it to places I have yet to see anybody else come close to. Don't know of any talks on the atonement that are comparable. Maybe you know of a sermon by President Monson that expounds on the atonement that I can read?? Or a sermon by him that expounds on Zion? I've searched but to no avail. If you know of any I would be most interested in reading since both topics have been weighing heavily on my mind.

I loved Approaching Zion. I started with the last chapter on the Atonement. To me it was more about At One Ment, Christ returning to God. Suggesting we should also return to God.

HN mentioned at least 12 chapters in the BOM on the atonement. I copied all of them into a word document, then saved as a pdf so I can read them together.

One was Ether 12. As I read it, I wondered what it had to do with the Atonement. Then I realized it is about the faith that leads someone to Christ, believing it! Moroni ends with his testimony/knowledge that he had seen Christ face to face.

At-One-Ment!

If you believe, open your mind, press forward in faith, you will find many treasures in the BOM. It all is intended to bring you to Christ.

I also see that in conference addresses. Elder Packer's last address is one that is great.

[OCDMOM]

I will testify to you all, that when I pay my tithing I get it back. It is only through the grace of God and tithing that my family makes it financially each month.

[Obrien]

I will testify to you all, that when I pay my tithing I get it back. It is only through the grace of God and tithing that my family makes it financially each month.

Tithing is NOT ABOUT GETTING ANYTHING. This is the fallacy all you rabid 10% gross payers think about us less-traditional tithe payers. I am not seeking to hold back from the Lord by chiseling my tithing. I am seeking to be a responsible human and use my resources to carry out the injunction of Matt 25. I am not greedily seeking to retain my gift, and use it as I see fit. I am seeking to use it as the Lord dictates. The Lord knows the needs of ALL His children, and maybe some of you NEED to pay to the Corp because that's the only way you'd do it. Great. Allow others the space to figure it out on their own. Perhaps the homeless guy I give $100 bucks to may really NEED it, but he'll never get it through a bishop. Is it any less sanctified of a gift, because it wasn't cleansed through Zions Bank?

[rewcox]

I will testify to you all, that when I pay my tithing I get it back. It is only through the grace of God and tithing that my family makes it financially each month.

Tithing is NOT ABOUT GETTING ANYTHING. This is the fallacy all you rabid 10% gross payers think about us less-traditional tithe payers. I am not seeking to hold back from the Lord by chiseling my tithing. I am seeking to be a responsible human and use my resources to carry out the injunction of Matt 25. I am not greedily seeking to retain my gift, and use it as I see fit. I am seeking to use it as the Lord dictates. The Lord knows the needs of ALL His children, and maybe some of you NEED to pay to the Corp because that's the only way you'd do it. Great. Allow others the space to figure it out on their own. Perhaps the homeless guy I give $100 bucks to may really NEED it, but he'll never get it through a bishop. Is it any less sanctified of a gift, because it wasn't cleansed through Zions Bank?

R e a l l y ! ! !

From 3rd Nephi:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

[Obrien]

I will testify to you all, that when I pay my tithing I get it back. It is only through the grace of God and tithing that my family makes it financially each month.

Tithing is NOT ABOUT GETTING ANYTHING. This is the fallacy all you rabid 10% gross payers think about us less-traditional tithe payers. I am not seeking to hold back from the Lord by chiseling my tithing. I am seeking to be a responsible human and use my resources to carry out the injunction of Matt 25. I am not greedily seeking to retain my gift, and use it as I see fit. I am seeking to use it as the Lord dictates. The Lord knows the needs of ALL His children, and maybe some of you NEED to pay to the Corp because that's the only way you'd do it. Great. Allow others the space to figure it out on their own. Perhaps the homeless guy I give $100 bucks to may really NEED it, but he'll never get it through a bishop. Is it any less sanctified of a gift, because it wasn't cleansed through Zions Bank?

R e a l l y ! ! !

From 3rd Nephi:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Yes, I know. But if the windows of heaven were noticeably closed, would you cease to pay??? If you're paying to open the windows of heaven, you've reduced God to a cosmic slot machine who will pay out if you pay in enough. You pay out of LOVE, of God and of mankind. That's the reason.

[Lizzy60]

I will testify to you all, that when I pay my tithing I get it back. It is only through the grace of God and tithing that my family makes it financially each month.

Tithing is NOT ABOUT GETTING ANYTHING. This is the fallacy all you rabid 10% gross payers think about us less-traditional tithe payers. I am not seeking to hold back from the Lord by chiseling my tithing. I am seeking to be a responsible human and use my resources to carry out the injunction of Matt 25. I am not greedily seeking to retain my gift, and use it as I see fit. I am seeking to use it as the Lord dictates. The Lord knows the needs of ALL His children, and maybe some of you NEED to pay to the Corp because that's the only way you'd do it. Great. Allow others the space to figure it out on their own. Perhaps the homeless guy I give $100 bucks to may really NEED it, but he'll never get it through a bishop. Is it any less sanctified of a gift, because it wasn't cleansed through Zions Bank?

R e a l l y ! ! !

From 3rd Nephi:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The problem I see with applying this scripture to our modern-day application is that NONE of our current tithes go into any sort of storehouse in order to provide meat (food) for those in need. Elder Oaks was adamant that no tithes go to feed the poor, and we need to increase our other offerings to do that.

[ajax]

Jesus ain't no slot machine

[Lizzy60]

FWIW, I am not robbing God, and He knows it.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

I loved Approaching Zion. I started with the last chapter on the Atonement. To me it was more about At One Ment, Christ returning to God. Suggesting we should also return to God.

HN mentioned at least 12 chapters in the BOM on the atonement. I copied all of them into a word document, then saved as a pdf so I can read them together.

One was Ether 12. As I read it, I wondered what it had to do with the Atonement. Then I realized it is about the faith that leads someone to Christ, believing it! Moroni ends with his testimony/knowledge that he had seen Christ face to face.

At-One-Ment!

If you believe, open your mind, press forward in faith, you will find many treasures in the BOM. It all is intended to bring you to Christ.

I also see that in conference addresses. Elder Packer's last address is one that is great.

Very nice rewcox. Thanks for sharing.

Here is something you may be interested in... Here is a bunch of Hugh Nibley unpublished papers.

The Nibley Pages
http://www.bhporter.com/Nibley%20Pages.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rewcox]

I loved Approaching Zion. I started with the last chapter on the Atonement. To me it was more about At One Ment, Christ returning to God. Suggesting we should also return to God.

HN mentioned at least 12 chapters in the BOM on the atonement. I copied all of them into a word document, then saved as a pdf so I can read them together.

One was Ether 12. As I read it, I wondered what it had to do with the Atonement. Then I realized it is about the faith that leads someone to Christ, believing it! Moroni ends with his testimony/knowledge that he had seen Christ face to face.

At-One-Ment!

If you believe, open your mind, press forward in faith, you will find many treasures in the BOM. It all is intended to bring you to Christ.

I also see that in conference addresses. Elder Packer's last address is one that is great.

Very nice rewcox. Thanks for sharing.

Here is something you may be interested in... Here is a bunch of Hugh Nibley unpublished papers.

The Nibley Pages
http://www.bhporter.com/Nibley%20Pages.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks!

[samizdat]

I thought that posts bashing the leadership were going to be stopped. As shadow said, the presumption is that if you have some money, you have means. And yes, I've been in the position of determining to pay tithing instead of rent, instead of food, and instead of water and electricity. Yet always, the Lord provided my needs, and has never failed me yet. Tithing is a matter of faith, not a matter of money, and it's always been that way to all who have faith to see beyond the here and now. Eternity is such a long time...this month's "need" is really just a blip, while this moment's faith and obedience have eternal value.

Thanks, Desert Roses. I too have found myself in the same situation.

Elijah in Sarepta, people.

[marktheshark]

Seems to me a lot of people here love their money more than they love wanting to obey the law of tithing as it is currently defined under the presiding counsel of Christ's earthly Church.

I sympathize with the truly poor who struggle financially and have legitimate concerns about putting food on the table. But, if you refuse to pay tithing the consequences are clearly defined.

If the current 10% status quo didn't exist, neither would the temples and meeting houses in the numbers they are. The gospel would not have spread to the world like it has because the financial means simply would not exist.

[marktheshark]

FWIW, I am not robbing God, and He knows it.

Everything you have is God's. He blesses you with every breath you take. Without Him in our lives as invisible as it may seem at times, we would drop to the dust dead in the blink of an eye.

Will a man rob God?

If they don't give back what is asked of what's already His to begin with, yes.

[creator]

...I sympathize with the truly poor who struggle financially and have legitimate concerns about putting food on the table. But, if you refuse to pay tithing the consequences are clearly defined....

I don't think anyone here is saying they refuse to pay tithing but some have a different understanding of what the law of tithing actually is. There is a difference between how each person calculates what amount of tithing they 'owe' to the Lord and refusal to pay tithing.

But anyways, this has already been discussed multiple times on other past tithing threads.