Joseph Murdered by a Conspiracy of His Friends?

[dlsuds]

I hear claims that Joseph was murdered due to a conspiracy of his friends. I have heard that his return from leaving for the Rocky Mountains was due to complaints by friends that he was abandoning his flock--that he returned contrary to the Lord's counsel, knowing he was placing his life in jeopardy--that he declared that if his life was of no value to his friends it was of no value to him. I am interested in insights and good source material on this topic. Is it possible to prove that he was indeed murdered by a conspiracy of his friends?

[AI2.0]

I believe there were some former members among the mob that killed Hyrum and Joseph. You could do a little reading on the martyrdom at Carthage jail to find some answers to your questions.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

I have gleaned much from the links and insights surrounding his death, esp. Joseph's own parables (did you know he wrote parables) parables about those who in part dealt their stones in his martyrdom.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JohnnyL]

A few inside people? Maybe so.

Elder Oaks spoke about a "national" conspiracy to murder him to keep him from being POTUS.

[marktheshark]

Joseph Smith as POTUS would have been epic.

Joseph Smith 2016! Lol.

[sushi_chef]

hey man, what's really happened, man??!! historical revisionism!! ....taboo?! usurpers ?!

yep, yep, sounds pretty much interesting stuff to sushi_....


"MISSIONARY EXPERIENCE

Written January 14 1973, by Almon G. Clegg upon request of his son Almon H. Clegg.

I would like to give credit to Almon and his family for inviting Mom and I to have one of the most pleasant trips to his place in Morton, Illinois. They took us to many places of interest which relate to the early period of the church. One of the most interesting places we visited was Carthage Jail. It was of special interest to me because of the following incidents of my life. The story is related as follows.

In 1923 I was called to go on a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One day while tracking I walked upon the porch of a large white house and there sat an old man. Before I was able to introduce myself he said, “You’re a Mormon Elder”. I replied, “yes”. Then he asked me to sit down because he would like to tell me a story. This is his story:

“When I was a small boy my parents lived in Carthage, Illinois and as a small boy I remember standing in the crowd that had gathered at the jail when Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith were killed. I saw the men drag the body of Joseph Smith and lean it up against the curb of the well and then a man in the mob drew a large knife from his belt and approached the body of Joseph. At that moment a streak of light or power come from out of the sky and struck this man and he became paralyzed. Then I remember seeing two men come and throw him into a wagon as if he were a sack of dirt and they hauled him away. It was common talk at our table and in our house that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet.”

The old gentleman commented that he was not a Mormon but that if he did join any church it would be the Mormon Church. He said that he had been away from the Mormons for many years but that he could always recognize a Mormon Elder.

This was a valuable testimony to me for it came almost first hand. There are not many people my age that have had a testimony from a non-member of the church. A testimony of one who stood and witnessed the killing of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

What made this so impressive to me was my visit to Carthage Jail in August of 1972. At the time I returned from my mission in 1926 I related this testimony to one of the wards where I was asked to speak. A man came up to me and said he had just visited Carthage Jail and there was no well there. I also heard from others and have seen pictures to the same effect. So I was thrilled to find upon my own visit to Carthage to see the well. Then to hear the L.D.S. missionary at the jail relate and explain in detail the story of what happened at the time of the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. He related that Joseph did fall out of the window and was dragged to the curb of the well and of the power that struck the member of the mob. This story was told in almost the same words as was told to me 49 years ago in Texas by this good old man that did see the Prophet die and was at the scene when all this happened in 1844. There stood this man, at the time just a small boy, holding to the hard of his father in a crowd of people that had gathered at that time and he witnessed the death of Joseph Smith.
"
http://www.clegghistory.org/joseph_smith_martyrdom.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Last Summer, on the evening of June 27th, 1997, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., I was pondering over church history as I was studying it before I went to bed. As I laid down in bed a vision was opened up before me- I was taken away in a light and when the light faded I was at another place. I soon noticed the Prophet Joseph Smith standing near by me the center of the room where I was taken, and saw 3 other men in the room as well....

There Joseph stood in the middle of the room shocked at the scene and asking Willard Richards if he was alright. Willard Richards shook his head in the affirmative- shaking and nervously at the same time pulling something from under his clothing. Now shaking even more- gun in hand pointed at Joseph Smith, Joseph stands back a bit and with a stern but saddened voice he says "Finish it." The gun goes off hitting Joseph in the chest....
"
http://webspace.webring.com/people/np/p" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... acy-99.htm
"carthage conspiracy" enoch theos
http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UTF ... ch%20theos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"all-time-high, topmost anomaly in church history 101 Postby sushi_chef » Sat Oct 18, 2014 ‹Gospel Discussions"
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36217" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:-B

[Jason]

http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_history/ ... vives.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://scottwoodward.org/josephsmith_pr ... hards.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AI2.0]

Only stunning Joseph he acts like he didn't believe Willard would do it and suddenly turns around to run from the room toward the window. Willard then stands in front of Joseph Smith. The men at the door begin firing as one bullet hits Willard in the chest but not wounding him, he falls to the floor covering his head and shouting "Sorry, sorry, sorry, Lord forgive me!" The two men then fire into Joseph's back and someone shouts "He has a gun!" Joseph crashes through the window shouting "Oh Lord, My God!" He falls face first to the ground outside. Willard Richards then runs to the window.

A 'vision'? Is that the standard we're now using to prove any and all outrageous charges???? This guy did not see a vision. Willard Richards was not shot in the chest and he did not shoot Joseph Smith. This person you keep citing is either a liar or delusional, either way he is spreading false accusations and blackening the good name and character of a great man.

Sushi chef, you are doing damage (which you will one day have to answer for) by continuing to spread these lies...this is not the first time you've tried to spread this vicious lie around with your posts.

[lgr3065]

A12.0, I am so thrilled that you have such inspiration. You call someone a liar. Where is your revelation? What damage is Sushi chef doing? Come on! We should have expression of various ideas. Truth comes in many form. Just because the Church presents one view does not make it the only view. Censorship is a bad idea. I think we still have the God given gift of agency however there are many who would like to see this gift removed by such statements above.

[Tony]

A12.0, I am so thrilled that you have such inspiration. You call someone a liar. Where is your revelation? What damage is Sushi chef doing? Come on! We should have expression of various ideas. Truth comes in many form. Just because the Church presents one view does not make it the only view. Censorship is a bad idea. I think we still have the God given gift of agency however there are many who would like to see this gift removed by such statements above.

Anyone can see that sushi_chef is either lying or spreading falsehoods. The alleged "vision" is as follows:

"Last Summer, on the evening of June 27th, 1997, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., I was pondering over church history as I was studying it before I went to bed. As I laid down in bed a vision was opened up before me- I was taken away in a light and when the light faded I was at another place. I soon noticed the Prophet Joseph Smith standing near by me the center of the room where I was taken, and saw 3 other men in the room as well....

"There Joseph stood in the middle of the room shocked at the scene and asking Willard Richards if he was alright. Willard Richards shook his head in the affirmative- shaking and nervously at the same time pulling something from under his clothing. Now shaking even more- gun in hand pointed at Joseph Smith, Joseph stands back a bit and with a stern but saddened voice he says "Finish it." The gun goes off hitting Joseph in the chest.... "

To claim that this alleged "vision" in 1997 means that Willard Richards, a faithful Latter-day Saint, secretly murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith is ridiculous.

WILLARD RICHARDS
Mission to Eastern States 1837
Mission to England 1837
Ordained Apostle 1840
Second Counselor to Brigham Young 1847
Died 1854 Salt Lake City, Utah

[Obrien]

A12.0, I am so thrilled that you have such inspiration. You call someone a liar. Where is your revelation? What damage is Sushi chef doing? Come on! We should have expression of various ideas. Truth comes in many form. Just because the Church presents one view does not make it the only view. Censorship is a bad idea. I think we still have the God given gift of agency however there are many who would like to see this gift removed by such statements above.

Anyone can see that sushi_chef is either lying or spreading falsehoods. The alleged "vision" is as follows:

"Last Summer, on the evening of June 27th, 1997, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., I was pondering over church history as I was studying it before I went to bed. As I laid down in bed a vision was opened up before me- I was taken away in a light and when the light faded I was at another place. I soon noticed the Prophet Joseph Smith standing near by me the center of the room where I was taken, and saw 3 other men in the room as well....

"There Joseph stood in the middle of the room shocked at the scene and asking Willard Richards if he was alright. Willard Richards shook his head in the affirmative- shaking and nervously at the same time pulling something from under his clothing. Now shaking even more- gun in hand pointed at Joseph Smith, Joseph stands back a bit and with a stern but saddened voice he says "Finish it." The gun goes off hitting Joseph in the chest.... "

To claim that this alleged "vision" in 1997 means that Willard Richards, a faithful Latter-day Saint, secretly murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith is ridiculous.

WILLARD RICHARDS
Mission to Eastern States 1837
Mission to England 1837
Ordained Apostle 1840
Second Counselor to Brigham Young 1847
Died 1854 Salt Lake City, Utah

Wow, you certainly proved your case... There's no historical precedent for someone being in a seat of power after a nefarious action.

ETA - I'm not accusing Willard Richards, just starting that Tony's defense is as weak as the charge.

[sushi_chef]

urrrrrrrrrrrrr.....sushi_ admits that sushi_ does not have discernment about someones claimed visions at all, whether its true or not so on....yet sushi_s hunches are it is not totally a fiction....kind of a believer maybe comparable with nephi who believed lehi's dream?!....


sushi_ tends to think the sole purpose of this lithograph/drawing was to deny/erase that 1844 june plasma phenomena: a lightning paralyzed a ruffian.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:G._W ... ,_1844.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
G. W. Fasel and Charles G. Crehen
http://image.search.yahoo.co.jp/search? ... +Charles+G" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Crehen


about flying balls prophecy,

sushi_ remembers has read somewhere that contemporaries records were almost none, which might be true other than apparent brighams remark.

yet, fairly recently, which is just yesterday , found the following a journal/biography record,

"""In one meeting I went to I heard Joseph say, "My life is hard and death will taste sweet to me. "But I go like a lamb to the slaughter". Then turning to Willard Richards, that the balls would fly all around him and not kill him. Then turning to the twelve who were setting near and said, "I have rolled this work upon the twelve. Round up your shoulders, boys, and bare it".
....This was the time the mantle fell upon Brigham Young. I was to the meeting. There were a good many that can bear the same testimony as I can. It happened that I set close to the stand where I could see....

Biography of Jane Parish Lindsay Written about 1919 """
http://wardell-family.org/lindsay-famil ... h-lindsay/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seems this has a discrepancy with church history: 1) that had been prophesied a year previously: "His escape fulfilled literally a prophecy which Joseph made over a year previously," and 2) "The Last Charge Meeting" was after around 1843 december....

"Historical Background: Before his death, the Prophet Joseph Smith began meeting with select faithful saints in a series of meetings which, according to Wilford Woodruff, began the latter part of December 1843, and continued until about the first of April 1844. In March 1844 Joseph gave to the Twelve what has come to be known as his "last charge," in which he "rolled off" onto the Twelve the burden of leading the kingdom of God on earth....
The Last Charge Meeting
"
http://www.scottwoodward.org/churchhist ... ments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so, she mixed up with??!! or at the same meeting?? or just added, kind of mishmash?!.....
she also mentions that mantle falling miracle, that sushi_ kind of believed yet has been buffled also....were the church leaders then too proud to accept that only general members were given that transfiguring manifestations??

"Brigham Young transformed into Joseph Smith Undetermined"
http://www.holyfetch.com/talk_faves/BY_is_Joseph.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

anyhow, so, does someone have access to any other records about flying balls prophecy to share??

also, theres the 1st hand church historians claim about doctors doctoring....

"I notice the interpolations because having been employed (myself) in the Historian's office at Nauvoo by Doctor Richards, and employed, too, in 1845, in compiling this very autobiography, I know that after Joseph's death his memoir was 'doctored' to suit the new order of things, and this, too, by the direct order of Brigham Young to Doctor Richards and systematically by Richards....
"
"interpolations because having been"
http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UTF ... %20been%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also, here, josephs instruction of ordaining the apostleship to richards....does this kind of show the future type&shadow of joseph being killed?? brigham and heber et al insisted brighams maternal cousin richards be ordained which joseph wasnt for and was kind of overpowered/yielded ??

“Joseph told them to go to Kirtland, and cleanse and purify a certain room in the Temple, that they must kill a lamb and offer a sacrifice unto the Lord which should prepare them to ordain Willard Richards a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.”

Kirtland "cleanse and purify a certain room"
http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UTF ... %20room%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
............................................................................................................... :-B

[Tony]

A12.0, I am so thrilled that you have such inspiration. You call someone a liar. Where is your revelation? What damage is Sushi chef doing? Come on! We should have expression of various ideas. Truth comes in many form. Just because the Church presents one view does not make it the only view. Censorship is a bad idea. I think we still have the God given gift of agency however there are many who would like to see this gift removed by such statements above.

Anyone can see that sushi_chef is either lying or spreading falsehoods. The alleged "vision" is as follows:

"Last Summer, on the evening of June 27th, 1997, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., I was pondering over church history as I was studying it before I went to bed. As I laid down in bed a vision was opened up before me- I was taken away in a light and when the light faded I was at another place. I soon noticed the Prophet Joseph Smith standing near by me the center of the room where I was taken, and saw 3 other men in the room as well....

"There Joseph stood in the middle of the room shocked at the scene and asking Willard Richards if he was alright. Willard Richards shook his head in the affirmative- shaking and nervously at the same time pulling something from under his clothing. Now shaking even more- gun in hand pointed at Joseph Smith, Joseph stands back a bit and with a stern but saddened voice he says "Finish it." The gun goes off hitting Joseph in the chest.... "

To claim that this alleged "vision" in 1997 means that Willard Richards, a faithful Latter-day Saint, secretly murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith is ridiculous.

WILLARD RICHARDS
Mission to Eastern States 1837
Mission to England 1837
Ordained Apostle 1840
Second Counselor to Brigham Young 1847
Died 1854 Salt Lake City, Utah

Wow, you certainly proved your case... There's no historical precedent for someone being in a seat of power after a nefarious action.

ETA - I'm not accusing Willard Richards, just starting that Tony's defense is as weak as the charge.

Willard Richards needs no "defense." I was posting what is known about him to compare to the alleged 1997 "vision" that makes the ridiculous charge that he secretly murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[dauser]

Joseph was murdered by apostates, leaders of false churches and secret combinations while unprotected of the state.

The state made no attempt to bring justice.

[AI2.0]

A12.0, I am so thrilled that you have such inspiration. You call someone a liar. Where is your revelation? What damage is Sushi chef doing? Come on! We should have expression of various ideas.

I don't need revelation to disregard what some nobody claims he saw in a 'vision', do you believe every tom dick and harry who says they have a vision??
In this case, that ***** made an unfounded accusation against my great great grandfather, Willard Richards, claiming that he murdered Joseph Smith. His proof is that he saw it in a 'vision'. What he also claimed he saw was Willard Richards getting shot in the chest, which never happened. I think I have every right to say he's a liar or delusional.

Come on! We should have expression of various ideas.

Oh really. So if someone comes on the forum and claims they had a revelation that you are a child molester and an adulterer, or a murderer, they should be able to share it? If they said the knowledge came in a dream or vision, should they be able to challenge your reputation because they say they had a dream or vision about you?

Just because the Church presents one view does not make it the only view. Censorship is a bad idea. I think we still have the God given gift of agency however there are many who would like to see this gift removed by such statements above.

There are forums out there that encourage this kind of speculation and those are the places to share them. And, it seems Sushi chef (or should I say, 'Ex Sushi Chef') tried to do just that.

You asked what harm Sushi Chef is doing? Do you think that if someone started posting a vision about you murdering someone, it might cause harm to your reputation? Do you feel that there ought to at least be more evidence that you are a murderer before someone could make these kinds of accusations against you? I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to spread these kinds of vicious accusations against a dead person who can't defend himself, with nothing to go on but a 'vision'.
The fact is, people have been blackening and spreading vicious rumors about these good men for decades, this might be normal for anti LDS web sites, but here?

Below is "Ex sushi chef's" post on a thread trying to blame Brigham Young for Joseph's murder over at Ex mormon forum. I guess it wasn't enough to accuse Brigham Young, 'Ex- sushi chef' had to bring in the accusation that Willard Richards murdered him. Even they dismissed this outlandish claim.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1391444,1391450

Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: October 01, 2014 02:16AM
Re: Brigham Young may have killed Joseph Smith.


can anybody believe like this??

"Last Summer, on the evening of June 27th, 1997, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., I was pondering over church history as I was studying it before I went to bed. As I laid down in bed a vision was opened up before me- I was taken away in a light and when the light faded I was at another place.

I soon noticed the Prophet Joseph Smith standing near by me the center of the room where I was taken....

Joseph kneeled down and held Hyrum in his arms weeping. The door at the time is kicked open - behind the door are two men standing with guns aimed - they fired into the room hitting John Taylor several times- he fell to the floor and crawled under the bed on the right side of the room where he then became unconscious.

There Joseph stood in the middle of the room shocked at the scene and asking Willard Richards if he was alright. Willard Richards shook his head in the affirmative- shaking and nervously at the same time pulling something from under his clothing. Now shaking even more- gun in hand pointed at Joseph Smith, Joseph stands back a bit and with a stern but saddened voice he says "Finish it." The gun goes off hitting Joseph in the chest.

Carthage Conspiracy A Vision and Commentary By Enoch Theos Last Updated April 1999
"
http://webspace.webring.com/people/np/p ... acy-99.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surprisingly, even posters at Exmormon forum recognized it was bunk. Here is the response he got:

Nonsense!

"I would've hollered Horse $#%!! but swearing in the subline is against the rules.

Over at FAIR and ldsfreedomforum.com they're howling over this one, and I can't blame them. Those of us who are publishing authentic LDS history and having to counter the revisionists at every keystroke just shake our heads over such tripe.

Crazed crapola such as this just makes our jobs that much harder.

Young was in Boston when Smith was killed, and he didn't receive actual confirmation until nearly a month aftwerwards.

As LDS leader, Brigham Young labored under a "yoke of insecurity" when he assumed "Joseph's mantle." He was a fanatic believer, had been introduced to the practice of plural marriage, and was clearly a "Nauvoo Insider" aware of the goings-on, but he was loyal to the church's mission and accepted his missionary assignments willingly. The unvarnished fact is he revered Joseph Smith.

He also learned JS's tactics well, such as always having a scribe to take down his dictation; this is what allowed him to maintain "plausible deniability" in later years.

That Brigham Young and Emma Smith were at each other's throats (speaking strictly rhetorically of course) following JS's death is a given, but Emma clearly despised many who had followed her husband's lead and began practicing polygamy.

It was her faction that likely originated rumors such as these, and they are no more credbile now than they were 170 years ago.

Samuel Smith's death was an event entirely unrelated (and I remain unpersuaded on that one as well as claims about Young eventually being poisoned in his own household. I lost a lot of respect for Samuel W. Taylor after reading his works on that one; he also tried to peddle a similar yarn that Bishop Snow of Manti ran afoul of karma and was castrated near the end of his life). The one "motive" offered in that one is the historical fact that Samuel Smith was strongly against polygamy.

The drama llamas and drama mamas can peddle this stuff all they want, but most of the historians are saner and more sober sorts."

and

"This does create lack of credibility for us when such speculation is posted. A newbie will not realize this is not typical of the board. They will look at this as typical wild anti-Mormon tactics and go back to the corporation. Let's stick to facts and to our personal experiences."

[A Random Phrase]

accusation against . . . Willard Richards, claiming that he murdered Joseph Smith. His proof is that he saw it in a 'vision'. What he also claimed he saw was Willard Richards getting shot in the chest, which never happened.

It certainly would not hold up in court, would it? Especially since he was wrong about where W.R. was shot.

I've read this account before. I don't believe it. If it's the one I read, it talks about Hyrum having a watch that (I think) W.R. supposedly put in his pocket. It decries the supposed story that Hyrum had the watch in his pocket, but the real story was that it was John Taylor who had the watch. So he was off on that, too.

John Taylor, heading for the window, was wounded by a bullet that pushed him against the windowsill. The impact against the windowsill shattered and stopped his watch.
from here

I think this ^^^ is a simplified version, but it will suffice.

When I was a child, though, I was taught that a bullet hit the watch and thus saved John Taylor's life. It was famous for saving his life from a bullet meant for him. I don't understand this different rendering.

In any case, I think the vision was probably a good imagination.

[sushi_chef]

urrrr...., sushi thinks this forum members might be expected to have a positive mental attitude like seeking further light and knowledge and sharing those.

and sushi_ tends to, especially in the religious setting perhaps, have a high regard for someone who has dreams/visions/prophecies so on.

as to "carthage conspiracy" by a enoch theos, still sushi_s hunches say there are some kind of advantages in it.

so, might think as saying, "Where much is given, much is required," those pioneer stock people are expected to have those and share furthermore, if any, its much better than complain...., besides boasting family lines might be irrelevant to the gospel of.... "....able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
.................................................................. :-B

[AI2.0]

urrrr...., sushi thinks this forum members might be expected to have a positive mental attitude like seeking further light and knowledge and sharing those.

and sushi_ tends to, especially in the religious setting perhaps, have a high regard for someone who has dreams/visions/prophecies so on.

as to "carthage conspiracy" by a enoch theos, still sushi_s hunches say there are some kind of advantages in it.

so, might think as saying, "Where much is given, much is required," those pioneer stock people are expected to have those and share furthermore, if any, its much better than complain...., besides boasting family lines might be irrelevant to the gospel of.... "....able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
.................................................................. :-B

Your odd third person writing style is hard to follow, but hopefully I have not misunderstood you.

Especially in a religious setting, you need to be careful of believing just any vision that comes your way. Joseph Smith Jr. gave this counsel:

“if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”

Those keys are held by the Prophet and quorum of 12 Apostles of the LDS church. If it is of any worth at all, Enoch Theos' 'vision' is for his own benefit and instruction. Personally, I think it is not from God and I will say so, but you can think what you like.

I'm sorry for sharing my connection with Willard Richards. I didn't realize it would be taken as 'boasting'. For the sake of full disclosure, I'm also descended from Hyrum Smith, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion, though I'd agree it gives me no advantages. I mentioned my relationship because Ig asked "What damage is Sushi chef doing?" in sharing this information? I think that the fact that he is my ancestor and he's being accused of murdering the Prophet Joseph, I think most would agree that your spreading this so called 'vision' is destructive to his reputation.

[sushi_chef]

vision vs vision....there are comparatively many descendants, arent they?! then, might be higher probability that at least some a few of them have had some spiritual dreams/visions through their gurdian angels that are said to be their deceased ancestors according to some church leaders. so, sushi_ kind of thinks and imagines that, to that kind of vision by a theos, probably those pioneer stock people are expected to have, show and tell their own version of visions in order to buttress what they believe really happened, in this internet age of openess and scrutiny. thus the third party people might be able to compare those two and investigate so on. unless otherwise, with that kind of pure convictions in peace that their ancestors were innocent and saintlike, isnt it possible for them to just put up with that ?! besides its not against the forum rules, is it?!
:-B

[AI2.0]

vision vs vision....there are comparatively many descendants, arent they?! then, might be higher probability that at least some a few of them have had some spiritual dreams/visions through their gurdian angels that are said to be their deceased ancestors according to some church leaders. so, sushi_ kind of thinks and imagines that, to that kind of vision by a theos, probably those pioneer stock people are expected to have, show and tell their own version of visions in order to buttress what they believe really happened, in this internet age of openess and scrutiny. thus the third party people might be able to compare those two and investigate so on. unless otherwise, with that kind of pure convictions in peace that their ancestors were innocent and saintlike, isnt it possible for them to just put up with that ?! besides its not against the forum rules, is it?!
:-B

Sorry, I can't make out what you are trying to say.

[Elizabeth]

No need to be sorry A12.O It is a heritage to be proud of, and to be protected.

... I'm sorry for sharing my connection with Willard Richards. I didn't realize it would be taken as 'boasting'. For the sake of full disclosure, I'm also descended from Hyrum Smith,

[diligently seeking]

I work at Hill AFB. The new employee that rececntly started at my job ( a few months back) grew up in Illinois. his wife is in the military--they just transferred from Alaska. this fella generally has an attitude of if you make me mad enough I will stomp you into the ground. it was either the first or second day on the job he gleefully with a sick chuckle told me how cool his heritage is that his 3rd great grandfather was In the mob that killed Joseph Smith and his brother. Hmmmm some interesting emotions I felt upon him informing me of this. 20 years ago I would have knocked him out. instead, halfway gritting my teeth--I told him that I don't judge him for his ancestors poor decisions. I never would've thought that the reality of the terrible injustice on that tragic day would find its path to me in such a real way...

"praise to the man who communed with Jehovah traiters and tyrants now fight him in vain"

Ps this fellows employment was short-lived--he has since moved on. ....

[sushi_chef]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm....lots of heavy stuff in america....
:-B

[JohnnyL]

JaredBees,

What jobs are at Hill AFB for civilians? Curious, we might be going there.

[diligently seeking]

https://www.usajobs.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes yes, Johnny L, go this link-- type in your information/ location where you will be living near the base a list of a bunch of jobs will come up. Working at getting any job persistence is key--but I tell youthis Is especially the case with federal jobs. Keep at it. Something will come up.