Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8247
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by BroJones »

I listened with interest to Elder Quentin Cook's talk yesterday at General Conf - he did well and straightened out a few myths with facts. Well done.

He is quoted at Deseret News:
Elder Cook mentioned that some believe that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past.

“This is simply not true,” he said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past. The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions, has been dramatic.


“Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, ‘Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. …’ We reach out to everyone.”
I also noted that there are over 85,000 full-time missionaries currently serving. A few years ago, when the age-lowering for missionaries was announced, I assumed that this would result in a "bump" up in missionaries, which did occur, followed by a decrease back down to perhaps 60,000 missionaries.

I was wrong about the latter -- the number of full-time missionaries NOW is much larger than I expected -- and this is very encouraging!

In our small branch near Adam-ondi in Missouri, the young Sister missionaries are WONDERFUL! and so are the senior Sister missionaries. And the branch is growing, with two baptisms in March.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by rewcox »

We have enjoyed the sister missionaries in our ward also. They work hard and have good results. They are great examples of the strength of our young people.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Joel »

BroJones wrote:I listened with interest to .....
You came back! :ymhug:

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1440

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by iamse7en »

Marlin K. Jenson thought otherwise... Interesting difference of interpretation of what has been going on.

User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8247
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by BroJones »

Elder Quentin Cook is an Apostle, Marlin Jenson USED TO be a seventy, right?
(edited my oops in recollection)

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by ajax »

BroJones wrote:Elder Quentin Cook is an Apostle, Marlin Jenson USED TO be a seventy, right?
(edited my oops in recollection)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by jwharton »

His attempt to address this sounded very defensive and there wasn't any substantiation of his claims.

I was hoping to hear something other than "because I say so" as the basis but I couldn't discern such.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Joel »

ajax wrote:
BroJones wrote:Elder Quentin Cook is an Apostle, Marlin Jenson USED TO be a seventy, right?
(edited my oops in recollection)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Awesome!

User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8247
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by BroJones »

ajax wrote:
BroJones wrote:Elder Quentin Cook is an Apostle, Marlin Jenson USED TO be a seventy, right?
(edited my oops in recollection)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, to be fair, Elder Cook referred to:
The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions, has been dramatic.

“Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, ‘Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. …’ We reach out to everyone.”

Thus, he points to an "increase in demonstrably measurable areas". There is a big difference between "demonstrably measurable" and "appeal to authority". True, he did not yet provide actual numbers -- but I did, when I referred to over 85,000 full-time missionaries. That is a measurable NUMBER.

Awaiting your next criticisms, sigh.

User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8247
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by BroJones »

ajax wrote:
BroJones wrote:Elder Quentin Cook is an Apostle, Marlin Jenson USED TO be a seventy, right?
(edited my oops in recollection)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your pointed dig is noted -- but, to be fair, Elder Cook referred to:
The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions, has been dramatic.

“Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, ‘Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. …’ We reach out to everyone.”

Thus, he points to an "increase in demonstrably measurable areas". There is a big difference between "demonstrably measurable" and "appeal to authority". True, he did not yet provide actual numbers -- but I did, when I referred to over 85,000 full-time missionaries. That is a measurable NUMBER.

Awaiting your next criticisms.

Not.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by ajax »

Just an observation. Someone stated that Marlin Jensen said otherwise and you said well Cook is an apostle, implying that based on his position, he must be more right than Jensen. That comment from a logical standpoint is a fallacy. I make them all the time so they are easy to spot. ;)

User avatar
h_p
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2811

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by h_p »

Ajax, wouldn't you think that an apostle might have access to the relevant information, more than someone who is no longer in a position to be privy to that information? How's that a logical fallacy?

From your link:
It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts....

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by samizdat »

I can tell you this much:

The Oaxaca temple had over ten times the ordinances this last year than they had in 2013.

There is still MUCH more work to be done however.

User avatar
swiftbrook
captain of 100
Posts: 388

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by swiftbrook »

All is well in Zion!

Scriptures being fulfilled.

Benjamin_LK
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2502
Location: Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Benjamin_LK »

It's interesting to find the stronger points, get those covered, and move to there's strong points to address them. That might be why there is a call to repentance in so many talks.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by shadow »

swiftbrook wrote:All is well in Zion!

Scriptures being fulfilled.
Did Elder Cook say that? Did anyone? (Other than yourself)

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by ajax »

shadow wrote:
swiftbrook wrote:All is well in Zion!

Scriptures being fulfilled.
Did Elder Cook say that? Did anyone? (Other than yourself)
Yes, says
mr subliminal.jpg
mr subliminal.jpg (8.83 KiB) Viewed 3344 times
Who hath ears... ;)

User avatar
Fairminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1956

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Fairminded »

BroJones wrote:I listened with interest to Elder Quentin Cook's talk yesterday at General Conf - he did well and straightened out a few myths with facts. Well done.

He is quoted at Deseret News:
Elder Cook mentioned that some believe that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past.

“This is simply not true,” he said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past. The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions, has been dramatic.


“Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, ‘Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. …’ We reach out to everyone.”
I also noted that there are over 85,000 full-time missionaries currently serving. A few years ago, when the age-lowering for missionaries was announced, I assumed that this would result in a "bump" up in missionaries, which did occur, followed by a decrease back down to perhaps 60,000 missionaries.

I was wrong about the latter -- the number of full-time missionaries NOW is much larger than I expected -- and this is very encouraging!

In our small branch near Adam-ondi in Missouri, the young Sister missionaries are WONDERFUL! and so are the senior Sister missionaries. And the branch is growing, with two baptisms in March.

Good points. I was also surprised that there are so MANY full-time missionaries out -- > over 85,000 at this time.

And I listened for the number of convert baptisms this past year, and I heard over 296,000 new members this year. That's more than last year.

All these counts are quantitative. They do NOT mean that "all is well in Zion" -- he said no such thing.

But the counts are indicative and encouraging to the faithful (to Christ) as Elder Cook rightly said.

User avatar
Fairminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1956

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Fairminded »

BroJones wrote:I listened with interest to Elder Quentin Cook's talk yesterday at General Conf - he did well and straightened out a few myths with facts. Well done.

He is quoted at Deseret News:
Elder Cook mentioned that some believe that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past.

“This is simply not true,” he said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past. The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions, has been dramatic.


“Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, ‘Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. …’ We reach out to everyone.”
I also noted that there are over 85,000 full-time missionaries currently serving. A few years ago, when the age-lowering for missionaries was announced, I assumed that this would result in a "bump" up in missionaries, which did occur, followed by a decrease back down to perhaps 60,000 missionaries.

I was wrong about the latter -- the number of full-time missionaries NOW is much larger than I expected -- and this is very encouraging!

In our small branch near Adam-ondi in Missouri, the young Sister missionaries are WONDERFUL! and so are the senior Sister missionaries. And the branch is growing, with two baptisms in March.

Good points. I was also surprised that there are so MANY full-time missionaries out -- > over 85,000 at this time.

And I listened for the number of convert baptisms this past year, and I heard over 296,000 new members this year. That's more than last year.

All these counts are quantitative. They do NOT mean that "all is well in Zion" -- he said no such thing.

But the counts are indicative and encouraging to the faithful (to Christ) as Elder Cook rightly said.

Hurray for someone who will stand up for the truth.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by inho »

I think that the most interesting part was "The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past." He didn't explain if the increase in endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions was in actual numbers or percentage. But, if the number of people leaving is significantly less it doesn't matter if it is in the percentage or actual number (if it is in actual number, that implies that it is in the percentage too). Thus there are not many snufferites leaving or not many more people who leave because troubling historical issues (as John Dehlin wants us to think).

Of course, we don't really know if there is any change in the reasons why people leave. Maybe of those who leave, now more than before leave because historical issues, and thus elder Jensen may be right. I guess the problem is, that not all who leave tell the exact reasons they leave.

Sunain
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2711
Location: Canada

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Sunain »

I know there are many that leave the church or go permanently inactive and do not take their names off the records. Our local missionaries are actually being told to visit inactive people a larger percentage of their time to see if the current address records are correct and to talk to them if possible.

User avatar
Fairminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1956

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by Fairminded »

Nice analysis, Inho. You noted:
Thus there are not many snufferites leaving or not many more people who leave because troubling historical issues (as John Dehlin wants us to think).
Wasn't John Dehlin excommunicated recently?

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by inho »

Fairminded wrote: Wasn't John Dehlin excommunicated recently?
Yes.
And I feel like that he is trying to make it sound like that there are more and more people leaving the church because of similar issues that he himself had trouble with. This is what elder Jensen let people to understand too. However, according to elder Cook this does not show in the statistics. So is this all just a misrepresentation because of echo chambers that internet creates, or is there some truth in it? Don't know, but it was interesting to here about the statistics.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by inho »

Now when the text of the talk is online, we can read this in the footnotes:
Over the last 25 years, the actual number of members leaving the Church has decreased and the Church has almost doubled in size. The percentage leaving is greatly reduced.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BfoxE
captain of 10
Posts: 14

Re: Elder Quentin Cook straightens out a few myths

Post by BfoxE »

I think there are some things you should understand about names being removed from the records.

My friend and his wife served a mission in the UK and their sole assignment was to visit the lost sheep or inactive membership.

Many thought their names had been removed, and requested that this now be done. My friend presented names to the Bishop to then begin the process. The names never came off. The Bishop did not send them to the SP.

So my friend sat with the bishop while he approved their removal. Then he presented the names to the SP. Again the names remained. The SP had not moved the names to Church Administration.

So again my friend had the names passed by the Bishop, then the SP and then handed them in to the Administration. Once again the names were not removed.

He ended up on a monthly basis taking names to the Bishop, then the SP, then administration and then sitting there while the names were removed.

No-one wanted their figures reduced, so no-one did the work.

Post Reply