Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

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Zowieink
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Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Zowieink »

I have just heard an interesting statement about an archeological dig that will start this Spring across the river from Nauvoo, from one of the contributors to the operation. The financers got curious about the scripture in DC 125:3 "Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it." Apparently Joseph Smith made a statement that the City of Zarahemla in the BoM was located there along with a temple, and a temple will be rebuilt in the place. The DNA evidence is supporting the idea (the native American tribes of that area are tied to Israeli/Middle East DNA). The dating of local artifacts coincides with the 600 BC to 400 AD timeline.

They did a couple of flyovers with ground penetrating radar and found the outline of a 100' x 200' building (or foundation). They hope to find Nephite artifacts as they excavate. They have secured the rights to dig from the property owner and all government officials.

Does anyone know more information about this? My information, obviously, is sketchy.

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marc
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by marc »

This has been a work in progress for some time. I believe the research has been done by a guy named May. I don't think this has any official church affiliation.

karend77
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by karend77 »

Muerte Rosa wrote:Wayne Mays?
10 Points for Muerte Rosa!

http://metalbandpromisedland.com/archae ... ns-4-2011/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by marc »

Yup. Wayne May.

will
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by will »

http://nephiteexplorer.com/2011/11/19/c ... zarahemla/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I found this.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by marc »

I shared a bunch of videos, the first of which is Wayne May's:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36747" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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letsjet
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by letsjet »

Brother May's lectures are pretty interesting. He said that the Mississippi River is the River Sidon. According to the Book of Mormon the River Sidon flowed north, the Mississippi flows south. I haven't yet heard his explanation for that particular discrepancy.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

Yes. Flows north. It also originates at a "fountain". The Usumacinta, identified as the probable River Sidon by Ric Hauck and several others, flows north and originates at a remarkable spring or fountain, according to a recent BMAF presenter who has been there.

In my view, May and anyone else who wants to be taken seriously really needs to do the same kind of spatial analysis that Ric Hauck did in his book, Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon. Until they do that and/or show how Ric's analysis is wrong, they are just arm waving.

And Dr. John Lund (published 2012)and others using word print analysis (published, 2010) show that Joseph wrote the editorial(s) in the Times and Seasons that placed Zarahemla in Mesoamerica. May and others need to show how these two exacting studies are wrong, if they really want to rebut the idea the Smith was the author of these editorials. Of course, I'm willing to wait on both of these 'forthcoming' efforts.

To my memory, the Book of Mormon cites several Nephite, etc., groups that migrated to and beyond the Land Northward, never to return. Someday, when I get time, I'll post all of the pertinent passages. Maybe someone already has a compilation of them. Who's to say that any Nepthites Joseph mentioned as inhabiting the mid-West and eastern US, were not descendents of one or all of these groups.
Last edited by larsenb on January 19th, 2015, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

letsjet wrote:Brother May's lectures are pretty interesting. He said that the Mississippi River is the River Sidon. According to the Book of Mormon the River Sidon flowed north, the Mississippi flows south. I haven't yet heard his explanation for that particular discrepancy.
Global
Warming?

njb

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
letsjet wrote:Brother May's lectures are pretty interesting. He said that the Mississippi River is the River Sidon. According to the Book of Mormon the River Sidon flowed north, the Mississippi flows south. I haven't yet heard his explanation for that particular discrepancy.
Global
Warming?

njb
Either that or the intense, cataclysmic upheavals during the advent of Christ to Nephites; though I don't think you will find any Book of Mormon passages that support the latter idea.

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BroJones
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by BroJones »

letsjet wrote:Brother May's lectures are pretty interesting. He said that the Mississippi River is the River Sidon. According to the Book of Mormon the River Sidon flowed north, the Mississippi flows south. I haven't yet heard his explanation for that particular discrepancy.
Perhaps the explanation is simply that the Bk of Mormon does NOT state that the River Sidon flowed north! So I ask you for a reference, a quote from the BOOK itself, stating that the River Sidon flowed north.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by samizdat »

If I recall correctly, the Sidon starts above Zarahemla when it comes to altitude, and flows through Zarahemla before emptying out to the sea.

It starts near Manti which is described as near the wilderness that divided the Nephite lands from the Lamanite lands. Zarahemla was north of that.

If we believe the maps of Joseph Smith that Coach Marc put on there in the other, he described Bountiful as being in Central America and Moroni had fled northward through Arizona and Utah before going east to New York.

He probably would have previously gone through some of the temples in Northern Mexico specifically the Colonia Juarez and Hermosillo areas before going to Arizona.

Central America back then would have been considered from central Mexico and points south and eastward. To this day many consider the southern parts of Mexico to be more Central American than North American and I don't blame them.

Another point to consider is that the Nephites when looking for Zarahemla mistook ANOTHER nearby river for the Sidon. Right next door to the Usumacinta is the Grijalva. So the main point of contention is which river was Sidon? Both sites are rather inaccessible because they go through the middle of the jungle with lots of Lacandon tribes (in the case of the Usumacinta), or because the river is heavily dammed and access to any potential archaeological sites is virtually impossible (in the case of the Grijalva).

In the United States, we don't really have that same type of geography. Yes, we have the Mississippi but the fact of the matter is is that it has a bunch of tributaries and there are no rivers like the Mississippi.

Said geography makes more sense in a Mesoamerican setting (though I will be the first to admit that the Book of Mormon likely started out in the Andes, then made its way to Mesoamerica.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by BroJones »

So I looked in the Book of Mormon itself, always a good thing to do, and found this in Alma 22:29 :
"
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."
It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

Pls correct me if I'm wrong - from the Book itself, not from hearsay!!

samizdat
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by samizdat »

BroJones wrote:So I looked in the Book of Mormon itself, always a good thing to do, and found this in Alma 22:29 :
"
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."
It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

Pls correct me if I'm wrong - from the Book itself, not from hearsay!!
Bro. Jones. You are a smart man, but you also have to read for context.

Here you go from the same chapter.


27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

Here we see that the wilderness divides Zarahemla from Nephi, near the borders of Manti. The River Sidon starts in this wilderness.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

The Lamanites occupied the wilderness areas as well as the areas south and east of the wilderness.

29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

The northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness are the places like Manti, Antionum (where the Zoramites lived) and Jershon (where the Anti Nephi Lehies lived). Also we see the land Bountiful as being north of Zarahemla. That is made clear later on in Helaman when Nephi, having been rejected in the north, comes to Zarahemla.

30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

Desolation is farther north than Bountiful. The Jaredites landed in the area known to the Nephites Desolation

31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

It appears that the Jaredites had a pretty large area of control at one point, before being completely destroyed. The Mulekites that occupied Zarahemla before the Nephites did knew of one Jaredite called Coriantumr. Sherem might have been a Jaredite.

32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

This is where things get interesting. Bountiful and Desolation have a boundary where a Nephite could traverse in only a day and a half. Let's say, 80 km in length or 50 miles. During the rainy season, the Papaloapan and Coatzalcoalcos river basins are filled with water. Even southern Veracruz state and all of Tabasco state, when there is a flood of even three feet of water, you inundate 70 percent of that land mass. And the Isthmus of Tehuantepec would have been halved in size precisely to...80 kilometers wide.

33 And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.

Looking at the Isthmus of Tehuantepec it is a zone of lots of mountains on the south, and swampy backwaters to the north. A fort placed there would have dominated the entire isthmus to make it impossible to cross without taking the fort.

34 Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites—as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires.

Brother Jones, I don't mean to be contentious, but one has to look at the geography of many areas. Assuming that the Heartland model were true (and it very well COULD be true) where in the USA could we put the line between Bountiful and Desolation if we use the Mississippi as the Sidon? It would definitely have to be in Canada and Canada is even bigger across than the USA is.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by BroJones »

Brother Jones, I don't mean to be contentious, but one has to look at the geography of many areas. Assuming that the Heartland model were true (and it very well COULD be true) ...
Just a discussion, and with this I agree. You see, I'm not worried about it - Moroni knows, Mormon knows the geography also, and Joseph. And of course, Jesus knows -- he went to the temple in Bountiful for heaven's sake. (Yes, I think that might in or near Adam-ondi-Ahman, but that's a pure guess.)

Someday, if we can get off our behinds, we'll be blessed with the sealed portion. Betcha that will clarify the location of Zarahemla.

And this dig across from Nauvoo, well, why not try?

samizdat
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by samizdat »

I am all in favor of what you say Dr. Jones. Why not dig?

Why not consider all the evidence, whether it be in North America, Mesoamerica, or Andean America?

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by buffalo_girl »

I have to wonder how the Energy Transfer Partner's Dakota Access Pipeline will impact Nauvoo and surrounding environment...

This entity is aggressively moving ahead with its massive project literally unseen by most of the United States. They are threatening Eminent Domain if landowners don't sign over the right of way. This pipeline will be 1,100 miles of 30" pipe, crossing the Missouri River twice in North Dakota, countless creeks and wetlands over its entire route, and looks to me like it will cross the Mississippi River pretty darn close to Nauvoo.

It will cross our county just five miles from our farm and through/under Beaver Creek which flows west through our valley to the Missouri River. Lots of potential for disaster since this pipeline has the capacity to carry 1/2 the crude oil pumped out of the Bakken EVERY DAY!

How does up to 750,000 barrels a day of volatile crude pumped through Zarahemla sound to you? Hope the LORD has an override!!!

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/dct/essen ... 2d836.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

Dakota Access Pipeline update
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 12:00 am

By Sam Vander Forest, samuel.vanderforest@iowastatedaily.com

The Dakota Access Pipeline proposal has been shrouded in controversy for months now and with eminent domain being filed in both Illinois and Iowa by the proposing company Energy Transfer LLC, it seems appropriate for an update.

Last week, a coalition of over a dozen environmental groups in Iowa reported to the Iowa Utilities Board that the company failed to give proper notice to landowners and all involved about public information meetings about the project.

The coalition also states that that are discrepancies in Energy Transfer’s promise of depth for the pipeline. The coalition claims that the original plan was to bury it 60 inches deep, but changed that number to 48 inches in informational meetings. The IUB is reviewing the coalition’s motion and will not allow the company’s application for the project to go through until these discrepancies are worked out.

Supporters of the pipeline say the economic and transportation benefits would greatly outweigh the possible costs. They state that the 1,100-mile pipeline would have a $1.1 billion economic benefit in Iowa alone, as well as safer transport than rail or truck.

The showdown has created not only large oppositions, but extremely diverse coalitions as well. Those opposed to the project are concerned about reducing oil dependence, land rights, environmental impacts and more. Those in favor, support it because of increased energy independence, temporary increased employment and more.

Whether you are in support of the project or strictly opposed, it will be interesting to see if government intervention is used despite Gov. Branstad’s desire to stay out of it. If the government does get involved and gives Energy Transfer the eminent domain it has requested, hopefully they specifically outline the accountability that the company will be held to.

The decision made with this pipeline may also showcase the priority differences or similarities between state and local governments and the federal government, as much of the nation advocates for investing in new renewable resources.

The 'spill' in the Yellowstone River is from a 12" pipe under the river.

Imagine a 30" pipeline breach!

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2080073-155/ ... ater-after" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glendive, Mont. • Eastern Montana residents rushed to stock up on bottled water Tuesday after authorities detected a cancer-causing component of oil in public water supplies downstream of a Yellowstone River pipeline spill.

Elevated levels of benzene were found in water samples from a treatment plant that serves about 6,000 people in the agricultural community of Glendive, near North Dakota.

Scientists from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said the benzene levels were above those recommended for long-term consumption, but did not pose a short-term health hazard. Residents were warned not to drink or cook with water from their taps.

Some criticized the timing of Monday's advisory, which came more than two days after 50,000 gallons of oil spilled from the 12-inch Poplar pipeline owned by Wyoming-based Bridger Pipeline Co. The spill occurred about 5 miles upstream from the city.

An oil sheen has been observed in Williston, ND - 98.4 miles from the 'spill'.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Glendiv ... 48.1469683" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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marc
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by marc »

buffalo_girl wrote:How does up to 750,000 barrels a day of volatile crude pumped through Zarahemla sound to you? Hope the LORD has an override!!!
He does! It's called a desolating scourge. :D

buffalo_girl
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by buffalo_girl »

He does! It's called a desolating scourge. :D

Let's pray that whatever the LORD has in mind, it will occur before oil begins to flow through it. There are many more explosions at storage facilities in the oil field than are ever reported...

http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/energy ... o-injuries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AND...the big boys really, really want to be able to EXPORT our sweet crude. Funny how Keystone XL is the distracting strategy while more important money making deals are being shoved along.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/oil-export-myths-1421451968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

samizdat wrote: Bro. Jones. You are a smart man, but you also have to read for context.

Here you go from the same chapter.


27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

Here we see that the wilderness divides Zarahemla from Nephi, near the borders of Manti. The River Sidon starts in this wilderness.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

The Lamanites occupied the wilderness areas as well as the areas south and east of the wilderness. . . .. .
Good summary of the evidence of a north flowing River of Sidon, Samizdat. That took a lot of work to compile.

Ric Hauck, the author of Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, says the following about this subject:
The general north-south flow of the River Sidon through the “middle” land of Zarahemla is indicated by references in the text on terrain (see also figure 3B). The headwaters of the river Sidon were situated above Manti and adjacent to the south wilderness or the narrow strip of wilderness mountain chain (Alma 16:6-7; 22:25, 29; 50:11). Since Manti was south of Zarahemla and Gideon (Alma 17:1) and at a higher elevation than these settlements, the Sidon flowed down from Manti past Zarahemla. The river therefore had a northward flow through the Nephite territory. The text provides no information on the land mass traversed by the river beyond Zarahemla, or are there references to this river crossing the known lands that bordered either the east sea or the west sea.

The mouth of the River Sidon emptied into the sea (Alma 3:3; 44:22) but which sea? The identity of that sea may be partially reveled by Mormon’s statement in Helaman 3:8 that the Nephite population covered “the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.” This statement is consistent with the comment in Alma 22:32 that “the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water.” Since the River Sidon flowed to the north through the land of Zarahemla, draining the northern slopes of the narrow strip of wilderness mountain barrier, and since no further reference to this river is made relative to the east and the west seas, it can be postulated that the Sidon flowed into the north sea.

The probable association of the Sidon with the north sea may explalin the route to Zarahemla used by the people of Zarahemla [Mulkites] in the first half of the sixth century B.C. The record states that this company, which included Mulek the son of King Zedekiah, arrived by ship in the “land North” (Helaman 6:10), meaning the greater land northward. Either at the time of their arrival or at some later time in their history they met and buried the last Jaredite leader, Coriantumr (Omni 1:21; Ether 13:21). Eventually these people “came from there up into the south wilderness” (Alma 22:30-31) to establish a colony at Zarahemla, which was in the center of the land southward (Helaman 1:24-25). Their travel was probably by boat along the shore of a sea, which is assumed to be the north sea, and then up the river to Zarahemla. It was at Zarahemla in the third century B.C that they were joined by King Mosiah and the Nephites, who had traveled north on the Zarahemla-Nephi trail from their abandoned homeland at Nephi.
Now postulating that the Mulekites landed where they did fits what Columbus found. This is that the clockwise ocean currents turn west at the latitudes of the Canary Island and points further south. Following these currents takes one to the West Indies. The early English explorers would dip down to the same latitude, approach the West Indies, then head north to Virginia/North Carolina. Constance Erwin, in her book, Fair Gods and Stone Faces, documents a lot of Phoenician cultural elements in the area of southern Mexico, which supports the idea that this was known territory to the Phoenicians, who probably had a hand in Mulek’s escape.

I think it was only later, with the advent of more sophisticated sale configurations and rudder systems, etc., that ships could travel in a more westerly direction from Europe, enabling more extreme tacking strategies allowing this.

I’ve mentioned before, that I strongly believe that unless May and Meldrum can refute Ric’s geographical spatial analysis in favor of their own model, they are blowing smoke. They are ignoring essential information from the Book of Mormon itself about its internal geography.

Does that negate Israelitish/Jewish artifacts in the area of the present US? Not at all. All you have to do is regard all the Nephite migrations to the north to possibly account for these things. And Jewish groups other than Nephite descendants might very well have sought refuge in this new land. Barry Fell makes a case that early descendants of the MicMac Indians were in fact Ptolomaic Greek Christians who sought refuge in the new world from persecution in their homeland.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by pjbrownie »

Brent,

I do find the North America model compelling from a prophetic point of view, as well as a archaeological point of view, from I do find it wanting from the internal geography point of view. Has anyone seen a good internal geography model of the North American basis?

The only out I find is that the internal geography model relies upon pre-destruction markers. Who know how the Lord changed the land when Christ came? Mountains became valleys, valleys became mountains, the seas swallow up certain cities.

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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by JohnnyL »

samizdat wrote:
BroJones wrote:So I looked in the Book of Mormon itself, always a good thing to do, and found this in Alma 22:29 :
"
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."
It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

Pls correct me if I'm wrong - from the Book itself, not from hearsay!!
Bro. Jones. You are a smart man, but you also have to read for context.

Here you go from the same chapter.


27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

Here we see that the wilderness divides Zarahemla from Nephi, near the borders of Manti. The River Sidon starts in this wilderness.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

The Lamanites occupied the wilderness areas as well as the areas south and east of the wilderness.

29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

The northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness are the places like Manti, Antionum (where the Zoramites lived) and Jershon (where the Anti Nephi Lehies lived). Also we see the land Bountiful as being north of Zarahemla. That is made clear later on in Helaman when Nephi, having been rejected in the north, comes to Zarahemla.

30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

Desolation is farther north than Bountiful. The Jaredites landed in the area known to the Nephites Desolation

31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

It appears that the Jaredites had a pretty large area of control at one point, before being completely destroyed. The Mulekites that occupied Zarahemla before the Nephites did knew of one Jaredite called Coriantumr. Sherem might have been a Jaredite.

32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

This is where things get interesting. Bountiful and Desolation have a boundary where a Nephite could traverse in only a day and a half. Let's say, 80 km in length or 50 miles. During the rainy season, the Papaloapan and Coatzalcoalcos river basins are filled with water. Even southern Veracruz state and all of Tabasco state, when there is a flood of even three feet of water, you inundate 70 percent of that land mass. And the Isthmus of Tehuantepec would have been halved in size precisely to...80 kilometers wide.

33 And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.

Looking at the Isthmus of Tehuantepec it is a zone of lots of mountains on the south, and swampy backwaters to the north. A fort placed there would have dominated the entire isthmus to make it impossible to cross without taking the fort.

34 Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites—as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires.

Brother Jones, I don't mean to be contentious, but one has to look at the geography of many areas. Assuming that the Heartland model were true (and it very well COULD be true) where in the USA could we put the line between Bountiful and Desolation if we use the Mississippi as the Sidon? It would definitely have to be in Canada and Canada is even bigger across than the USA is.
I'm not seeing how this shows Sidon flows north??

dpalmer1962
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by dpalmer1962 »

The one aspect of prophecy about where the location of the Nephites were has to do with politics more than geography. The Lord said specifically there would never be any Kings over the land of promise. In all of the Americas only the US has never had a King over all of the land. While we had a king for a time over part of the land, once the "Gentiles" arrived and won their freedom, there has never been a king since, as was prophesied. Mexico doesn't qualify for that land of promise.

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sandman45
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by sandman45 »

At least the Heartland / North American model has only 1 Hill Cumorah

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Sandinista
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Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Sandinista »

Wayne May is tied in pretty closely with Rod Meldrum and FIRM. They have a pretty good website where they lay out their arguments for a North American setting for the Book of Mormon. Interesting stuff.

http://www.firmlds.org/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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