So people are now being baptized into the Church of Snuffy?

[adventeon]

Seriously, you should tell your Bishop you decided to get re-baptized, and that you really like Denver Snuffer's ideas. And, if you believe Denver Snuffer that the LDS Church has lost its authority, you should tell them that also. No use hiding and pretending to be something you're not. Better to live with integrity than without. You can't serve both God and mammon, and from what I gather about you, you think the LDS Church is mammon.

So if you let me know what ward you're in, what your full name is, and the contact info for your Bishop, I'll be happy to facilitate the process. After all, you have nothing to hide - they all know everything about you anyway - so this will just be a friendly little waste of time on my part.

I would suggest you spend some time pondering the following. It is clear there is much here you misunderstand:

2 Nephi 26:20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.

22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

[kathyn]

Dr. Jones, I commend you for your integrity and steadfastness.

[boo]

Jules -

I would love to report you. What ward are you in, what is your full name, and what is the contact info for your Bishop?

Wow, seriously???

Her Bishop already knows her thoughts anyway. She wrote him a big, awesome, letter. (And the Stake President if IIRC)

Seriously, you should tell your Bishop you decided to get re-baptized, and that you really like Denver Snuffer's ideas. And, if you believe Denver Snuffer that the LDS Church has lost its authority, you should tell them that also. No use hiding and pretending to be something you're not. Better to live with integrity than without. You can't serve both God and mammon, and from what I gather about you, you think the LDS Church is mammon.

So if you let me know what ward you're in, what your full name is, and the contact info for your Bishop, I'll be happy to facilitate the process. After all, you have nothing to hide - they all know everything about you anyway - so this will just be a friendly little waste of time on my part.

France I must say that I am disappointed in you. Based upon some of our prior exchanges I had hoped you had given up on your quixotic quest to further reduce church membership by auto de fe ing everyone who does't see things with the clarity you believe you have. You really are not ( at least I hope ) Torquemada reincarnated . Even if Jules is wrong the Lord doesn't need your help to root out heretics. Let him deal with it in his way , In the mean time if you want to help wayward souls treat them with love and respect. Follow Pauls admonition and serve him and treat him kindly and minister to his needs. Romans 12:20. Finally I must warn you you remind me of a frequent poster here who a year or two ago was threatening me and saying tell me who your bishop and ward are and I will tattle on you, Now as he has matured spiritually he is on the other side of the fence and it is you that thinks he is apostate, The truth has a way of doing that

[rewcox]

Especially to the sister who explained how her husband is following Denver Snuffer, and how this is tearing apart their marriage -

A dear friend sent an email to me recently, and I feel her message is worth posting.
Just a few portions are redacted that might identify her ex...

I read Denver Snuffer’s book, “The Passing of the Heavenly Gift” last winter. As I started the book, I was willing to give it a fair read because I liked some of his previous work. After reading that book, however, I concluded that if he had not already been excommunicated, he should and would be excommunicated on the basis of what he said in that book. There is no way that you can publicly preach that sort of doctrine and remain a member of the Church, and Bro. Snuffer knew or should have known this. Subsequently, he was excommunicated. I was neither surprised nor offended.

It appears to me that, while he may well have been inspired in some of his earlier writings, he has also followed the unfortunate road of some – not all – excommunicants: Rather than examining himself and the circumstances that led to the excommunication, remaining or becoming faithful to the truth, and setting things straight, he has set himself up as the light of truth and promoted himself as the true [messenger] in opposition to the Church organization.

I lived through a less spectacular parallel to this – my first marriage. My first husband was, when we got married, an excellent gospel scholar and active in the Church. He was a returned missionary and also a fellow student of antiquity. We were sealed in the temple and were active in the Church during the first part of our marriage. Unfortunately, as he continued to study, he got involved in some activities that deprived him of the Spirit. .

As he got deeper into his esoteric doctrines, he became ever more contemptuous of the Church leadership. He began asserting that they had gone astray and had lost the priesthood. He asserted that he had begun receiving angelic visitations, from which visitations he concluded that he was being called as the rightful successor to Joseph Smith, with the mission to consolidate a remnant of the Church and build the New Jerusalem. He began to set up a little group of followers to this end. To his great eternal good fortune, however, this group fell apart after a few months. I don’t believe he has continued to work on this. Needless to say, he also became completely inactive in the Church and quite abusive to me as I retained my activity in the Church and refused to believe in what he was doing.

I have no question that he may have been receiving the visitations. I believe in revelation – from both sides. I also have no question that Korihor received a similar “angelic” visitation, which led him into his apostasy.

Meanwhile, our son and I maintained our activity in the Church. We straddled the fence, so to speak, for about five years as he continued to descend into apostasy. Finally, circumstances, with which I will not bore you with at this time, became such that it was necessary for me to leave him.

We attempted for the next 5 years to get our husband/dad back on track and to salvage our family, but to no avail. Pride ruled. My first husband could not ever admit that he had made a mistake. I finally divorced him when he took up with another woman

I and our son have continued on in activity in the Church. Our son served a worthy mission in ... He successfully completed his mission, returned home, graduated from BYU, and has been sealed in the temple. He is active in the Church and has a wonderful family. He continues to love his father – appropriately – but agrees to disagree with him about religion. I have a cordial relationship with my ex, too, but similarly agree to disagree with him about religion. I have remained active in the Church and married – four years ago – a wonderful man in the temple. My first husband has never come back to the Church.

Anyway, after detailing this sad and sordid series of events, I can attest to the following: Yes, there is imperfection and, possibly, even corruption in Church members and, even possibly, Church leadership. What do we conclude? Mortals are imperfect. And, such has been prophesied. But the Church organization is inspired, as are many of the leaders, and the Priesthood is currently on the earth. We don’t have a fullness at this time, although we have an awful lot, and that which is appropriate for us to have at this time. We have also been told that in the scriptures. (example: the rest of the gold plates) Even so, we can make choices that either put us in touch with the Spirit or take us away from it.
One of the things that takes us away from it is to engage in public criticism of Church leadership. That is the first step on the royal road to apostasy. The next step is to start rejecting doctrines and commandments and, then, as the apostasy progresses, to set yourself up as the arbiter of all truth in opposition to Church counsels, and then, finally, to set yourself up as the appropriate spiritual leader of [some] organization rather than the anointed and ordained leadership. This is an incremental process that starts slowly at first and then snowballs out of control as it progresses. I watched my first husband go through this process. By the time he was five years or so into it, although he had been an excellent gospel scholar when we were married, he had obviously lost ALL recollection and comprehension of most basic gospel principles. By the time we finally parted company, he was so far into falsehood – and attempting to set up his own priestcraft – that he could not recognize truth if it hit him on the head.

Unfortunately, that appears to be the same trajectory that Denver Snuffer is taking. And, like my ex, he may well be getting some inspiration from the other side about it – the wrong other side.

I hope this hasn’t bored you. I wanted to give you evidence that I really have seen this apostasy process in action to support my sense that Denver Snuffer is –tragically - involved in a similar apostasy process.

This is a good post Dr Jones. You can also see in Tim Malone's posts that the outcome on these situations can be serious.

[SAM]

So, we've had at least two people on this thread ask why someone is still a member of this church, implying certain people aren't welcome if all their beliefs don't line up correctly, although iWriteStuff did apologize for having said it. Now we have someone saying they want to turn in someone they don't even know to their bishop. So, so disappointing. Let's not turn the LDS Church into an exclusive club, like the Zoramites did. Let's also not forget that charity never faileth. If you don't agree with Jules or others on this board you can certainly tell them why you disagree and bear testimony of your understanding but there is certainly no need to become a police state here. As I said earlier in this thread, please stop being so anxious to want to kick people out of the church!

[ajax]

Especially to the sister who explained how her husband is following Denver Snuffer, and how this is tearing apart their marriage -

A dear friend sent an email to me recently, and I feel her message is worth posting.
Just a few portions are redacted that might identify her ex...

I read Denver Snuffer’s book, “The Passing of the Heavenly Gift” last winter. As I started the book, I was willing to give it a fair read because I liked some of his previous work. After reading that book, however, I concluded that if he had not already been excommunicated, he should and would be excommunicated on the basis of what he said in that book. There is no way that you can publicly preach that sort of doctrine and remain a member of the Church, and Bro. Snuffer knew or should have known this. Subsequently, he was excommunicated. I was neither surprised nor offended.

It appears to me that, while he may well have been inspired in some of his earlier writings, he has also followed the unfortunate road of some – not all – excommunicants: Rather than examining himself and the circumstances that led to the excommunication, remaining or becoming faithful to the truth, and setting things straight, he has set himself up as the light of truth and promoted himself as the true [messenger] in opposition to the Church organization.

I lived through a less spectacular parallel to this – my first marriage. My first husband was, when we got married, an excellent gospel scholar and active in the Church. He was a returned missionary and also a fellow student of antiquity. We were sealed in the temple and were active in the Church during the first part of our marriage. Unfortunately, as he continued to study, he got involved in some activities that deprived him of the Spirit. .

As he got deeper into his esoteric doctrines, he became ever more contemptuous of the Church leadership. He began asserting that they had gone astray and had lost the priesthood. He asserted that he had begun receiving angelic visitations, from which visitations he concluded that he was being called as the rightful successor to Joseph Smith, with the mission to consolidate a remnant of the Church and build the New Jerusalem. He began to set up a little group of followers to this end. To his great eternal good fortune, however, this group fell apart after a few months. I don’t believe he has continued to work on this. Needless to say, he also became completely inactive in the Church and quite abusive to me as I retained my activity in the Church and refused to believe in what he was doing.

I have no question that he may have been receiving the visitations. I believe in revelation – from both sides. I also have no question that Korihor received a similar “angelic” visitation, which led him into his apostasy.

Meanwhile, our son and I maintained our activity in the Church. We straddled the fence, so to speak, for about five years as he continued to descend into apostasy. Finally, circumstances, with which I will not bore you with at this time, became such that it was necessary for me to leave him.

We attempted for the next 5 years to get our husband/dad back on track and to salvage our family, but to no avail. Pride ruled. My first husband could not ever admit that he had made a mistake. I finally divorced him when he took up with another woman

I and our son have continued on in activity in the Church. Our son served a worthy mission in ... He successfully completed his mission, returned home, graduated from BYU, and has been sealed in the temple. He is active in the Church and has a wonderful family. He continues to love his father – appropriately – but agrees to disagree with him about religion. I have a cordial relationship with my ex, too, but similarly agree to disagree with him about religion. I have remained active in the Church and married – four years ago – a wonderful man in the temple. My first husband has never come back to the Church.

Anyway, after detailing this sad and sordid series of events, I can attest to the following: Yes, there is imperfection and, possibly, even corruption in Church members and, even possibly, Church leadership. What do we conclude? Mortals are imperfect. And, such has been prophesied. But the Church organization is inspired, as are many of the leaders, and the Priesthood is currently on the earth. We don’t have a fullness at this time, although we have an awful lot, and that which is appropriate for us to have at this time. We have also been told that in the scriptures. (example: the rest of the gold plates) Even so, we can make choices that either put us in touch with the Spirit or take us away from it.
One of the things that takes us away from it is to engage in public criticism of Church leadership. That is the first step on the royal road to apostasy. The next step is to start rejecting doctrines and commandments and, then, as the apostasy progresses, to set yourself up as the arbiter of all truth in opposition to Church counsels, and then, finally, to set yourself up as the appropriate spiritual leader of [some] organization rather than the anointed and ordained leadership. This is an incremental process that starts slowly at first and then snowballs out of control as it progresses. I watched my first husband go through this process. By the time he was five years or so into it, although he had been an excellent gospel scholar when we were married, he had obviously lost ALL recollection and comprehension of most basic gospel principles. By the time we finally parted company, he was so far into falsehood – and attempting to set up his own priestcraft – that he could not recognize truth if it hit him on the head.

Unfortunately, that appears to be the same trajectory that Denver Snuffer is taking. And, like my ex, he may well be getting some inspiration from the other side about it – the wrong other side.

I hope this hasn’t bored you. I wanted to give you evidence that I really have seen this apostasy process in action to support my sense that Denver Snuffer is –tragically - involved in a similar apostasy process.

This is a good post Dr Jones. You can also see in Tim Malone's posts that the outcome on these situations can be serious.

This logic has be debunked so many times on this forum it's intellectually dishonest to keep bringing it up. Laughable really.

[rewcox]

I know, the intellectual superiorityism rules.

Yet the letter Dr Jones posted was a real result, with tough consequences.

[AI2.0]

So, we've had at least two people on this thread ask why someone is still a member of this church, implying certain people aren't welcome if all their beliefs don't line up correctly, although iWriteStuff did apologize for having said it. Now we have someone saying they want to turn in someone they don't even know to their bishop. So, so disappointing. Let's not turn the LDS Church into an exclusive club, like the Zoramites did. Let's also not forget that charity never faileth. If you don't agree with Jules or others on this board you can certainly tell them why you disagree and bear testimony of your understanding but there is certainly no need to become a police state here. As I said earlier in this thread, please stop being so anxious to want to kick people out of the church!

I think two people out of the many who've posted is not a lot. I think they are in the minority so I don't think it is fair to judge others by them and assume the rest of us feel the same. While I'm very concerned with what these people are doing, IMO, it isn't anyone's place to turn them in or try to tell their leaders about them--They have no jurisdiction over them and frankly it isn't very christlike either.

Besides, I believe that Bishops and Stake Presidents are called by revelation and have keys to serve the spiritual needs of the members within their congregations. I assume their leaders will be impressed to call them in or talk to them if the Lord wants them to meet with them. I have posted the things I have because I don't want to see any LDS members blindly go ahead with the baptism Denver Snuffer is encouraging unless they know that it could get them disciplined by the church. If they do so, knowing full well what it means, then I leave them in the Lord's hands and he can impress their church leaders that something is 'amiss' and they need spiritual guidance.

[AI2.0]

Dr. Jones, I also want to thank you for sharing that letter. Thank you, thank you. My prayer is that some who may be struggling to know who they should follow, will read it carefully and heed the warnings.

[TZONE]

Why do I even bother posting here?

And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it. (Moroni 6:1)

The elders, priests, and teachers were baptized. Who are they? Offices of the priesthood. Who are they? Members of the church. Who are they? Those who have already been baptized once.

There are dozens of examples. Now off to waste my time elsewhere.

At this time came a revelation, that the Saints could be baptized and re-baptized when they chose, and then that we could be baptized for our dear friends. (Brigham Young J.D. 18:241)

Brother Harris was taught the necessity of being re-baptized. He said that was new doctrine to him. Revelations 2nd Chapter was explained, that those who had lost their first love and had fallen into evils and snares, were called on to “repent and do their first works,” and that re-baptism was a part of the gospel. He claimed that he had not been cut off from the Church, but said if that was required of him it would be manifest to him by the Spirit. Soon after his arrival in Utah he applied for baptism, saying that the Spirit had made known to him that it was his duty to renew his covenant before the Lord.” (Life of Martin Harris, Millenial Star 44:87)

[ajax]

I know, the intellectual superiorityism rules.

Yet the letter Dr Jones posted was a real result, with tough consequences.

By this logic, Mormonism has been debunked every time a new convert is disowned or shunned by his/her family. Christianity debunked every time a Muslim converts and loses family and friends etc.

Perhaps the real fruit lies in persons who can't accept differences in loved ones to the point of shunning or leaving. Where are they learning this? Maybe Tim's wife should ask herself why she really loves Tim. Is it because she loves him as a person? Or because he was a Mormon. If she loves him first and foremost, the rest doesn't matter.

[Thomas]

If I don't like Obama must I leave the country or am I allowed to talk about the policies I don't like?

When did the church change from being run by common consent to having to leave if you don't agree with everything?

[rewcox]

If I don't like Obama must I leave the country or am I allowed to talk about the policies I don't like?

When did the church change from being run by common consent to having to leave if you don't agree with everything?

If you are always complaining about it, you will self remove whether you leave or not.

[Lizzy60]

My son changed his belief system only a few years after marrying in the temple. His wife still loves him -- imagine that!! She takes the kids to church, and doesn't rag on her husband for abandoning her version of Mormonism. They are a wonderful family. We love our son, and have never criticized his beliefs. Seriously, he's an adult. However, we have had church leaders tell us that we need to "preach" to him. God has only told us to love him.

[rewcox]

My son changed his belief system only a few years after marrying in the temple. His wife still loves him -- imagine that!! She takes the kids to church, and doesn't rag on her husband for abandoning her version of Mormonism. They are a wonderful family. We love our son, and have never criticized his beliefs. Seriously, he's an adult. However, we have had church leaders tell us that we need to "preach" to him. God has only told us to love him.

He removed himself. Sounds like your DIL and you are following the right approach. I think examples can be stronger in most cases.

We have a family member that is gay and practices it. Love is best I think.

[France]

Hey All -

I'd like to apologize to Boo, Jules, Denver, and any others I've offended with my posts. One way or another, it seems like my buttons get pushed around here, bringing out the worst in me. I know a lot of us disagree about Denver, Monson, or countless other people - but I'm really, REALLY happy that we all agree about Christ (or at least agree to discuss Him civilly).

It hurts some of you that I say things about Denver you disagree with. It hurts others when they hear people call their LDS Church the awful things many people around here call it. It hurts like hell when you get personally attacked, which is how I feel just about every time I visit this site. It hurts like hell when I respond in kind, only to feel filthy for the rest of the day because I didn't follow the commandments of Christ that you know to be true.

I have privately asked BrianM to create a new forum for people who are not members of the ATHG forum. I believe it would create a space on LDSFF where people who have views that might offend ATHG people can still have a voice, and create less contention. People can do their own thing on ATHG; people can do their own thing on this new forum. People can still post in all the other ones. You just couldn't be part of both ATHG and the "new forum," for lack of a better name. They'd be mutually exclusive.

I'm sick of having all the ATHG people attack me, irrespective of what I originally post on Denver. My OP about "Drawbacks of Being Churchless" in this thread is pretty harmless. Yet, like all posts about Denver, it degenerates into a "DS is a prophet" vs. "DS is apostate" vs. "The LDS Church is true!" vs. "The LDS Church is a corporate whore!"

If you believe in the idea of having a space that is mutually exclusive with ATHG, I'm sure my proposal to BrianM would generate more traction if you PM him and tell him why you think it's a good idea.

This idea is something others will need to push. I can't continue to have my days ruined, and my family ruined, by all the negativity I get whenever I come here. I can't continue to suffer spiritually because people here, whether through their own fault or not, bring out the worst in me. I can't continue to sin. I need to be clean. I need to leave. I'll be better for it, as will you.

I am leaving, at least until I think I've changed. I hope while I'm gone LDSFF also changes, and creates a new space as I mentioned. Thanks.

[Thomas]

If I don't like Obama must I leave the country or am I allowed to talk about the policies I don't like?

When did the church change from being run by common consent to having to leave if you don't agree with everything?

If you are always complaining about it, you will self remove whether you leave or not.

I think I will stay in the USA. Much as I don't like Obama this country is still my hpme

[BroJones]

I understand the need to take a break, France.
So sorry you have been hurt here!

I'm hoping that we will all be refreshed by listening with love in our hearts to the hymns and the prayers and the speakers at LDS General Conference starting one week from today. Personally, I have questions I've been pondering which I hope the Lord will help me with, as He usually does if I listen properly during conference.

Best wishes,
Steve

[AI2.0]

Why do I even bother posting here?

And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it. (Moroni 6:1)

The elders, priests, and teachers were baptized. Who are they? Offices of the priesthood. Who are they? Members of the church. Who are they? Those who have already been baptized once.

There are dozens of examples. Now off to waste my time elsewhere.

At this time came a revelation, that the Saints could be baptized and re-baptized when they chose, and then that we could be baptized for our dear friends. (Brigham Young J.D. 18:241)

Brother Harris was taught the necessity of being re-baptized. He said that was new doctrine to him. Revelations 2nd Chapter was explained, that those who had lost their first love and had fallen into evils and snares, were called on to “repent and do their first works,” and that re-baptism was a part of the gospel. He claimed that he had not been cut off from the Church, but said if that was required of him it would be manifest to him by the Spirit. Soon after his arrival in Utah he applied for baptism, saying that the Spirit had made known to him that it was his duty to renew his covenant before the Lord.” (Life of Martin Harris, Millenial Star 44:87)

The rebaptisms which took place in the early church have already been addressed and they are not the same as what Denver Snuffer is encouraging. Early church rebaptisms were not done at the behest of an excommunicant from the church because of his belief that LDS baptism is done incorrectly. They were not done with different wording than the previous baptism. They were not done by a priesthood holder who believes he can exercise priesthood because at least seven women 'sustained' him. They were not done without the approval of church leaders. This is not the same thing.

[marc]

Hey All -

I'd like to apologize to Boo, Jules, Denver, and any others I've offended with my posts. One way or another, it seems like my buttons get pushed around here, bringing out the worst in me. I know a lot of us disagree about Denver, Monson, or countless other people - but I'm really, REALLY happy that we all agree about Christ (or at least agree to discuss Him civilly)...

It's pretty easy to take things personal. I've taken way too many things personal in my life. The more I have prayed to the Lord for charity, and to understand others and love them with longsuffering, the easier it is NOT to take things personally and allow others to believe according to their understanding and give them space to work out their salvation. We can disagree and still be edified when we seek to understand one another. I've said it here and the new alternate forum, I'm not as concerned about people disagreeing with me as I am about them at least understanding me. I often disagree with many here, but I try earnestly to understand their unique perspective. It really does help with filling in the gap of understanding.

[iWriteStuff]

So, we've had at least two people on this thread ask why someone is still a member of this church, implying certain people aren't welcome if all their beliefs don't line up correctly, although iWriteStuff did apologize for having said it. Now we have someone saying they want to turn in someone they don't even know to their bishop. So, so disappointing. Let's not turn the LDS Church into an exclusive club, like the Zoramites did. Let's also not forget that charity never faileth. If you don't agree with Jules or others on this board you can certainly tell them why you disagree and bear testimony of your understanding but there is certainly no need to become a police state here. As I said earlier in this thread, please stop being so anxious to want to kick people out of the church!

I think you may have taken me out of context. I didn't apologize for asking why someone would continue attending an LDS church when their beliefs are opposed to it. I apologized in case someone had misconstrued my questions so as to read them as meaning that the person was no longer welcome. Of course they're welcome, I just can't see why they'd want to be part of something they oppose, denounce and hold bitter feelings towards.

It's a fair question.

Tim, by his own account, knew what his act meant and why he did it, complete with all repercussions. Why are those with similar beliefs as Tim afraid to state the same as he did and follow the same course?

[boo]

Because God has directed some of us to take a different course for now. You see it isn't a matter of fear . Perfect love casteth out all fear. It is a matter of getting revelation from God and doing his will.

[brlenox]

Hey All -

I'd like to apologize to Boo, Jules, Denver, and any others I've offended with my posts. One way or another, it seems like my buttons get pushed around here, bringing out the worst in me. I know a lot of us disagree about Denver, Monson, or countless other people - but I'm really, REALLY happy that we all agree about Christ (or at least agree to discuss Him civilly).

It hurts some of you that I say things about Denver you disagree with. It hurts others when they hear people call their LDS Church the awful things many people around here call it. It hurts like hell when you get personally attacked, which is how I feel just about every time I visit this site. It hurts like hell when I respond in kind, only to feel filthy for the rest of the day because I didn't follow the commandments of Christ that you know to be true.

I have privately asked BrianM to create a new forum for people who are not members of the ATHG forum. I believe it would create a space on LDSFF where people who have views that might offend ATHG people can still have a voice, and create less contention. People can do their own thing on ATHG; people can do their own thing on this new forum. People can still post in all the other ones. You just couldn't be part of both ATHG and the "new forum," for lack of a better name. They'd be mutually exclusive.

I'm sick of having all the ATHG people attack me, irrespective of what I originally post on Denver. My OP about "Drawbacks of Being Churchless" in this thread is pretty harmless. Yet, like all posts about Denver, it degenerates into a "DS is a prophet" vs. "DS is apostate" vs. "The LDS Church is true!" vs. "The LDS Church is a corporate whore!"

If you believe in the idea of having a space that is mutually exclusive with ATHG, I'm sure my proposal to BrianM would generate more traction if you PM him and tell him why you think it's a good idea.

This idea is something others will need to push. I can't continue to have my days ruined, and my family ruined, by all the negativity I get whenever I come here. I can't continue to suffer spiritually because people here, whether through their own fault or not, bring out the worst in me. I can't continue to sin. I need to be clean. I need to leave. I'll be better for it, as will you.

I am leaving, at least until I think I've changed. I hope while I'm gone LDSFF also changes, and creates a new space as I mentioned. Thanks.

I would like to offer a hypothetical scenario. Not pointing my fingers at anyone in particular, however, if I thought someone was a Korihor or such maybe a Sherem or a Nehor I don’t know why I would want a private venue to discuss such individuals as there is nothing to talk about privately that serves any purpose. Even if I was as well versed in the writings that said Korihor might have written as I would be before I could make a reasoanble judgment of his message, I would consider the flattering words that were used as he went around the ancient cities of the children of the Lord trying to lead them astray, I would want to speak of these things publically as a warning voice. Sometimes there are those discussed on this forum who twist words and meaning and make accusations against the leaders. I have vehemently defended the leaders of the church from false teaching of this sort. I have decried and constructed long informative post's with quotes and scriptures etc. defending against this brand of poison.

Of course if Korihor was professing to be a member in good standing I would feel obligated to stand up and be accounted as against his lies and deceit. However, after Korihor was excommunicated I would feel like my voice was less required. Once that note of finality was played whether from Alma or any other Mouthpiece of the Lord, if that Korihor continued to teach, it would became a moot point to me. Why the man of sin has been revealed and anyone who wishes to follow him is in the same boat in which they have always been. They have rejected the church it's leaders and wisdom. For the most part they are those whom the scriptures describe as most difficult to recover for having once known the truth and then turning against it.

The only value I see in discussing those, who are like Korihor, is in a public forum (if at all) simply as a warning to any who may simply be wondering what it WAS all about. There may be some value in the scenario in that these Korihors clearly fill the role of an antichrist. They are sometimes able to deceive some of the easier to sway, disgruntled types and a few who should never have been swayed but for reasons that boggle minds were.

As an antichrist he only shows one what to look for. There will be other antichrists that follow him and perhaps the warning of his demise will alert others to the stench of sophistry and excessive pseudo-intellectualism that is used to present a tainted and soiled gospel message and leads down a gentle slope of carefully crafted apostasy. He is a poor example still of what is to come. When the antichrists can work miracles and manifest great acts of seeming magnificent works so that the very elect are deceived, hope that you learned from the Korihorian examples on how to recognize and identify those that would assist Satan in stealing your souls. If you must talk about him at all, his failed status in the church negates all of his teachings and writings and leaves him only fit as was Sherum and Nehor to be spoken of as examples of the flatterers and deceivers as warnings to others that they should know these types when they manifest themselves in our society and flee their evil influence.

No one needs to privately discuss the antichrist. They need to only reveal him for what he is and let him rise up to the highest standard he will ever achieve in this life – a warning against anyone who publically claims to have received an angel of light without being in a suitable position of authority in God’s organization. Then to build on that false platform and designate himself as one to lead you back to Christ while at the same time despising Christ’s church by despising it’s Christ chosen leaders only adds insult to injury and brilliance to the false light he claims. That’s the only reason I would bother to mention at all. However, I must add that the Book of Mormon more than anything else adequately unmasks these foul characters with such clear terms and descriptions of their activities and their eventual severing from the church for their gross unrepentance so clearly, I don't know how we could top that in a public or private forum. I'm basically against any private forums for such things. Just my two bits...

[brlenox]

Stacy, while a person may or may not agree with Denver, I think we should respect his name and call him Denver, Snuffer or DS.

After the disrespect lauded upon the Church Brethren by the Group, it is comical that someone is being called out for being slightly " disrespectful to Bro. Snuffer.... oh wait, no longer Bro. Snuffer.... Mr. Snuffer.

I would love to see this "disrespect lauded upon the brethren", you have evidence of your accusation? (I mean from anyone besides AussieOi, that problem has been corrected...)

Smallfarm

I use my 1000th post in commentary to you. You seem to have become a bit testy lately and far less pleasant than in previous times when I would get assigned to this forum. (As I am so often accused of.) I hope everything is well with you and that you can find pleasanter times. And for goodness sake...get a real hat. :ymcowboy: :ymcowboy:

[freedomforall]

A distinction without a difference.

You fall all over one writer who claims divine communication (who is clearly pimping her book), yet insult those who prefer a different writer who claims the same thing. Is it her unabashed pursuit of profit that makes her better?

I don't know if anyone has ever left the church over something Rowe wrote, and neither do you.

Again, where's the insult?

You're right, I don't know if anyone left the church because of her. But I do know someone whose family has been destroyed by Denver Snuffer. My EQP and good friend left the church because of Denver and his books. My wife sat next to his tonight as they waited for temple recommend interviews with the stake president. It was evident she had been crying all day. We sit next to her and her two daughters in church every week. It's the most heartbreaking thing I've ever seen. And my former friend is bitter beyond belief at everything he used to follow.

Is that good fruit? Is that the outcome Jesus wanted?

Julie says get food storage and prepare yourselves spiritually. Follow the prophet and learn to follow the spirit. She sells a book that says the same. The two are night and day different.

But again, I'll say I believe Julie because she tells me to follow the Prophet and the church. Denver's message is the opposite. If you think there's no difference or distinction there, I cannot reach you.

So she says stuff that fits your paradigm. Yeah, she must be right. Everyone that disagrees with you must be wrong.

How profound.

Didn't you change your paradigm because of one man, or perhaps you didn't really believe in the church and so DS merely fed you what you found pleasing to you in order to support your views? Ever since DS followers have begun to dominate this forum, more and more new DS followers are coming out of the woodwork. Look at how much one man has been able to do in bringing to pass contention and disputations. But why can't people simply leave the church without making such a fuss among the saints. Are you not content with your new found doctrine? Does it have to be forced down the throats of everyone else or can you just go with Snuffer in peace and let the saints believe what they will? Why is justification required to believe Snuffer?
Is it because this forum is no longer what it used to be, the gospel of Jesus Christ, honoring the church and its leaders and believing the gospel as presented in scripture per forum rules? Some here say not to listen to the arm of flesh, yet, most of these new found doctrines have come from old prophets, the church as it was perceived to be nearly two hundred years ago as gathered by those who think they are not following the arm of flesh in order to make their case today.
Perhaps as was stated, everyone including those following DS may just end up in the Telestial kingdom because DS is certainly not Jesus Christ, but IS the arm of flesh so what makes him so darned important? I mean, if one man has so much influence as to get people to leave the church, or to deceive others while sitting in Sacrament all the while thinking the church is now no good, then who are they really following, Christ or DENVER SNUFFER? On one hand we have our prophets of the church helping us to achieve Celestial glory, and on the other hand we have Denver Snuffer getting people up in arms and steering them off onto a different path. And now every single person has to decide which of these they will go with. They both cannot be right. Either it is Christ's church, or Denver Snuffer and his teachings tugging at every soul now. Quite ironic isn't it? Go figure.