New seminary graduation requirements

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gkearney
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by gkearney »

OK let's fess up here. How many of us have read all four of the standard works cover-to-cover? Tell the truth now, you really read all the so and so begat so and so and ALL the rules in the old testament? Every single word of it? Really?

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Original_Intent
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Original_Intent »

gkearney wrote:OK let's fess up here. How many of us have read all four of the standard works cover-to-cover? Tell the truth now, you really read all the so and so begat so and so and ALL the rules in the old testament? Every single word of it? Really?
I have done so. But that was on my mission, and I know what a chore that was. So my expression that I felt this was a bit much to ask of possibly a 9th grader was FROM EXPERIENCE. I have yet to hear one of the people saying "No big deal" own up to having read them all, let alone before graduating high school.

It must be one of those hastening the work things and raising the bar, etc.

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shadow
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by shadow »

Straining at nats.

Seminary isn't a qualification to determine ones worthiness. It's a class. attendance and participation does not determine worthiness. It's a class. Classes have assignments. Seminary teaches one book per year. Why not gripe about an English teacher requiring a student to actually read the book they're studying? Ridiculous, right? No, that's not sarcasm OI. Ok, maybe a bit. But honestly, when the class is studying the OT, then read the OT. It isn't hard to do. Most of it is done in class anyway.

it's not forced righteousness. It's an assignment for a class. It's a class. Participate or don't. When I was in high school I didn't. No regrets. I didn't graduate and yet my life wasn't detracted. I wasn't found unworthy for anything as a result. why didn't I graduate? Because I didn't meet the requirements. Apparently attendance was required. No biggie. Forced righteousness had and has nothing to do with it. It's. a. class. #-o

That said- "Be ye therefor perfect." now there's a requirement. Is that forced righteousness? Nope. Neither is reading the scriptures in order to graduate from seminary. It's seminary for crying out loud, it's not life. If it is for you then broaden your horizon a bit, or a lot.

The smallest, silliest things can be such a stumbling block. Mind boggling.

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caddis
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by caddis »

ajax wrote:Well, if there is going to be something called "Seminary", there should be some sort of rigor to it.

The problem is pressuring or shaming kids into attending for really nothing more than a cultural "keeping up appearances" charade. How many of us, when our kids became freshman, just automatically assumed and then leaned on our kids as if the decision has already been made for them? I confess, I did that with my first two kids. No more. My last two? - their choice. There ought to be ZERO of that coming from anybody, anywhere - leaders, teachers, parents - that somehow equates going to seminary as being a "good member" or being on the "right track". Good luck with that. Too ingrained. Besides, half the time we had to detox them from what they were receiving.

They also ought to eliminate ALL perks that come with it like getting preference for BYU etc.
Yeah it was bad enough when we moved into our ward and I told the Scoutmaster my oldest son had zero interest in Cub Scouts. I let him know I wouldn't be filling out the "necessary" paperwork because I didn't feel it was necessary to do unless he was going to attend. After being given the "Church Policy" lecture I still wouldn't cave. He got mad and walked away.

Some of the looks I get from the "righteous" parents in the ward on Sunday is a bit amusing though. I can only imagine what it will be like when Seminary rolls around and I don't make him go if he doesn't want to.

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shadow
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by shadow »

Original_Intent wrote:

It must be one of those hastening the work things and raising the bar, etc.
Indeed. That's a good thing.

I didn't read all the scriptures in high school, tho I wish I had.
I read to kill a mockingbird, of mice and men and the great gatsby among a few others. English teachers required us to do it in order to pass the class. Crazy, I know :-o

dewajack
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by dewajack »

I think this misses the point. I can see the thinking in having them read the entire book, but putting too much emphasis on reading the entire book for the year in my opinion misses the mark. The most important thing is to learn to hear The Lord's voice more in the scriptures, search for answers and learn true, sound doctrine. If people are focused too much on quantity and not enough on quality, how is that really helping them? There will be youth cruising through the books, just trying to complete the requirement and graduate. The thinking is actually counter productive.

Also, this isn't math. Math can be useful at times, but the scriptures are God's words and can lead one to Our Lord like no other. There's a big difference there, I think it's silly to bring up math.

Lastly, just 1 verse, James 1:5 started this dispensation.

Shadow had the right words "straining at nats," but I think it's the requirement that is the one straining. They are the ones after all that are making the changes.

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Original_Intent
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Original_Intent »

One level 34 Illuminated to another - it's spelled "gnats".

Still waiting for anyone that has actually done it to say no big deal. Otherwise, =;

The OT - it's not like reading "a book", it's like reading 30.

But hey, if the goal is to reduce honest seminary graduation by 90%, by all means, the thinking has been done, put your shoulder to the wheel etc.

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Jeremy
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Jeremy »

Original_Intent wrote:Must read all of the standard works cover to cover now to graduate, if not you get a "certificate of participation"...
Dang! That is rough. I guess one might not want to read the most current edition of the ensign every month... but if that's what it takes. Do what you gotta do. After all, seminary graduation is vital to success in this life and the life to come.

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Original_Intent
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Original_Intent »

dewajack wrote:I think this misses the point. I can see the thinking in having them read the entire book, but putting too much emphasis on reading the entire book for the year in my opinion misses the mark. The most important thing is to learn to hear The Lord's voice more in the scriptures, search for answers and learn true, sound doctrine. If people are focused too much on quantity and not enough on quality, how is that really helping them? There will be youth cruising through the books, just trying to complete the requirement and graduate. The thinking is actually counter productive.

Also, this isn't math. Math can be useful at times, but the scriptures are God's words and can lead one to Our Lord like no other. There's a big difference there, I think it's silly to bring up math.

Lastly, just 1 verse, James 1:5 started this dispensation.

Shadow had the right words "straining at nats," but I think it's the requirement that is the one straining. They are the ones after all that are making the changes.
AMEN. Someone gets it! (Actually a think a lot do!)

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shadow
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by shadow »

We can't separate the reading from the hearing.
I don't suspect that the seminary teacher will now just focus on making sure everyone reads. I suspect the assignment will be, as it always has been, to read some chapters, followed by discussing what has been read. This new graduation requirement will mean that the seminary teacher will now discuss what people actually did read as opposed to just discussing. I've found, and I'm sure you're aware too, that reading the topic prior to discussing it helps immensely. Let's not think seminary is now just a read or leave class full of nazi teachers prioritizing the reading and no learning attitude some seem to want to project. Making it a requirement will encourage more reading, deeper discussions and wiser more prepared students who actually can understand the scriptures and thus be better equipped to hear The Lord. How often have you sought after revelation only to have scriptures come to mind in answer to your query? Hopefully it happens often. Being ignorant of the scriptures IS a stumbling block.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Jeremy wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:Must read all of the standard works cover to cover now to graduate, if not you get a "certificate of participation"...
Dang! That is rough. I guess one might not want to read the most current edition of the ensign every month... but if that's what it takes. Do what you gotta do. After all, seminary graduation is vital to success in this life and the life to come.
I actually only ended up going to seminary for a week. I guess I'm screwed :-s

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Jeremy
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Jeremy »

Jules wrote:I guess I'm screwed :-s
Pretty much explains a lot.

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jbalm
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by jbalm »

I graduated from seminary.

So what does that tell you?

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marc
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by marc »

I never graduated. I grew up on the poor side of town in Texas and it was a 20 minute or so drive to church where Seminary was held. That meant getting up every morning about 5 am to be at church at 6 am. No way was my dad gonna take me. My mom got up that early daily just to get us all ready for work/school. Once in a while a member would make a sacrifice and pick me up and take me and I'd go. I don't recall attending very much. If all this social media hoopla was around back then, I would have been too poor to own any kind of smart device. Only the rich white kids in our stake would have them and the rest of us would have been scratching our heads.

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Zowieink
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Zowieink »

I would like to throw my penny into the pond. Every year, my ward does "STOMP" Students trying out Moroni's Promise. It starts the day after school is out in May and ends the weekend before school starts in Aug/Sept. Anyone who want can participate and we have fun reading together as ward members usually 2 to 3 chapters a day. Now, they are looking at doing this during the winter (Thanksgiving thru February) for the Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price.

Enough said. I do have a problem with the Bible. Growing up I was fascinated by it. As I started getting pocked by the HG to look at churches I found that all the various denominations use the bible in very different ways. So when the time came that I was ready to be introduced to the Church, the HG again steered my attention to The Book of Mormon, which within reading the testimonies and the first few chapter knew it was the "Word of God", at which point I basically threw the Bible out the door.

I feel this is relevant to the conversation in that there are many important truths in the Bible, but why read it cover to cover is beyond me. (They already have problems with porn, so let's read the Song of Solomon.) Sure, there are nice stories that we have all heard since our youth. There are prophecies galore. But the basic problem is what Joseph Smith said "the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" which we all know, it isn't in many cases. So to have seminary students study the Bible seems a little bit wasted to me. The Book of Mormon, yes. D & C/PGP, yes and maybe even the New Testament.
Anyone done the calculations for 4 years seminary = so many pages a day?

Another thought, this might be a requirement for foreign missions, as the requirements by foreign governments are getting more stringent and the consider seminary as a "religious school" that you need to graduate from.
Last edited by Zowieink on August 21st, 2014, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OOOK?
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by OOOK? »

I graduated from seminary and I read all of the Standard Works as we went through them. It was no big deal to me. I had home study and there were also assignments you had to complete and you had to go early on the 'activity' night and attend a very long class. I taught primary where the kids read the entire Book of Mormon before baptism to be sure it was what they wanted, yes they were 7 going on 8. We do not expect much from kids now. They are so much smarter and more capable than we give them credit for.

This does not mean i think getting a certificate is at all important. If kids have learning difficulties they should be able to get a certificate of participation rather than graduation. I also think seminary is a huge misnomer because those who attend seminary should be able to preach and teach. In all of the other religions I am familiar with it is an undergraduate degree. There should be some competence involved or we should change what we call it. Institute (yes I also graduated from that) should be like a masters degree. If kids want to take these classes to graduate they should be academic, if they want to participate for the chance to meet with other teens who are in the church and re-charge for the day, great. There is a difference.

Forcing teens to do something is silly. We should have taught them by now that the reason for our choices is that we love God. No other reason really matters. We do what we do because we love God. By the time they are teens they can make most of those choices. A bit of guidance and direction helps them when they need extra wisdom and strength. I teach Sunday School and I do not care if my kiddos go to a different class. I am there to teach and they are there to learn. I am not there to enforce attendance rules. My class knows how I feel and they usually come to class because they love God and it is where they want to be. They like learning about the gospel and they like feeling the spirit and they like reading the scriptures too.

Please do not discount your kids abilities. I see it too often. They are bright, very bright. And the ones I have taught love God, even if they get caught up in the world when they remember that they head back and re-center. I wish more adults were like the kiddos. I have issues with the way adults act and their lack of brightness more often than I probably should.

Good luck with your kids and remember that Seminary is not more important than other things. It is just a tool.

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marc
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by marc »

I thought about editing my previous comment, which in retrospect can be construed as racist and probably is. Not all the white kids were rich. But I can't remember any Mexican kids that were. In any case, that's all I have to say about that. Obviously I still have some growing up to do.

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jbalm
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by jbalm »

Zowieink wrote:I would like to throw my penny into the pond. Every year, my ward does "STOMP" Students trying out Moroni's Promise. It starts the day after school is out in May and ends the weekend before school starts in Aug/Sept. Anyone who want can participate and we have fun reading together as ward members usually 2 to 3 chapters a day. Now, they are looking at doing this during the winter (Thanksgiving thru February) for the Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price.

Enough said. I do have a problem with the Bible. Growing up I was fascinated by it. As I started getting pocked by the HG to look at churches I found that all the various denominations use the bible in very different ways. So when the time came that I was ready to be introduced to the Church, the HG again steered my attention to The Book of Mormon, which within reading the testimonies and the first few chapter knew it was the "Word of God", at which point I basically threw the Bible out the door.

I feel this is relevant to the conversation in that there are many important truths in the Bible, but why read it cover to cover is beyond me. (They already have problems with porn, so let's read the Song of Solomon.) Sure, there are nice stories that we have all heard since our youth. There are prophecies galore. But the basic problem is what Joseph Smith said "the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" which we all know, it isn't in many cases. So to have seminary students study the Bible seems a little bit wasted to me. The Book of Mormon, yes. D & C/PGP, yes and maybe even the New Testament.
Anyone done the calculations for 4 years seminary = so many pages a day?

Another thought, this might be a requirement for foreign missions, as the requirements by foreign governments are getting more stringent and the consider seminary as a "religious school" that you need to graduate from.
Do you think they will have to read the whole OT?

When I taught GD, the manual skipped huge parts of it.

Making the kids read the whole OT is cruel and unusual punishment.

IMO, the NT is a different story. I think it is the best book of scripture in the LDS canon.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

jbalm wrote:Do you think they will have to read the whole OT?

When I taught GD, the manual skipped huge parts of it.

Making the kids read the whole OT is cruel and unusual punishment.

IMO, the NT is a different story. I think it is the best book of scripture in the LDS canon.
=))

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Original_Intent
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Original_Intent »

Jules wrote:
jbalm wrote:Do you think they will have to read the whole OT?

When I taught GD, the manual skipped huge parts of it.

Making the kids read the whole OT is cruel and unusual punishment.

IMO, the NT is a different story. I think it is the best book of scripture in the LDS canon.
=))
I don't think he's joking, and if he isn't I agree with him!

I love to read, and getting thru the OT as a part of a goal that I set for myself was bad enough. Has anyone noticed that the OT is the only scripture I singled out as an onerous requirement?

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gkearney
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by gkearney »

So the will read the whole OT, at least the kids will get to read the Song of Soloman. Nothing like Hebrew erotic poetry to keep teenagers interested in scripture I say.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Original_Intent wrote:
Jules wrote:
jbalm wrote:Do you think they will have to read the whole OT?

When I taught GD, the manual skipped huge parts of it.

Making the kids read the whole OT is cruel and unusual punishment.

IMO, the NT is a different story. I think it is the best book of scripture in the LDS canon.
=))
I don't think he's joking, and if he isn't I agree with him!

I love to read, and getting thru the OT as a part of a goal that I set for myself was bad enough. Has anyone noticed that the OT is the only scripture I singled out as an onerous requirement?
I know, that's what made it so funny!

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Epistemology
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Epistemology »

I guess the crux of the matter is what a person perceives seminary to be or discovering the true nature of what seminary is.

So what is Seminary?

If it is a class for higher learning, why not have rigorous requirements?
Is it a time and place to keep kids connected to Gospel topics casually?
Is it an extension of Church attendance?
Is it an elective for those who want to have another Gospel learning platform?

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Desert Roses
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by Desert Roses »

All this fuss about kids who don't read well--hasn't anyone noticed that all the electronic versions of the scriptures have the "listen" option? My husband listens to his scriptures pretty often, and for kids with learning problems that include difficulty with reading, I would imagine "reading" the scriptures by listening would suffice!

I remember that I went to seminary precisely because it was a place to feel the Spirit and learn. In my sophomore year, we did BoM. It wasn't "required" to read it cover to cover, but I did, and because I did, I gained a testimony of it's truthfulness as well as a testimony of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Some of my children haven't wanted seminary, and it's never ever been a question by leaders, by peers at church, or anything else. Those who want to do seminary are being given an opportunity. If parents think they can make a teen go to seminary, with or without the testing, they are deluded. In high school in Utah, kids just ditch. In places with early morning seminary, they just sit outside or go someplace else if parents are "forcing" it, or they sit in the back and sleep. You can't make anyone want the gospel, so test or no test, seminary is something youth that want to increase their understanding of the gospel and scriptures will put in the effort, while those who are not wanting to will not. Kids who have learning problems will either find a way (with the support and help of teachers and leaders) to manage to meet those challenges, or they will find that their testimony/desire is strictly on the part of parents and will drop out.

e-eye
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Re: New seminary graduation requirements

Post by e-eye »

Many of you here just like to look for things to complain about. For a long time there have been many different way's students are graded and when you have thousands upon thousands of kids who is to say what one seminary class to another was doing was fair. To simplify the standards for seminary graduation the church set the bar for seminary attendance at 75% which actually lowered how often you had to go and made it so you had to read the scriptures (oh the madness). It's an across the board change so everywhere is the same. It's simple. If you want to pass it's a little more work ( unless you are reading and studying your scriptures like you should then it's actually less ). Just because you have to read the complete standard works does not limit those who want in depth studying to go along with it and those who never read anyway will now have to read the scriptures at least enough to pass. The longest book the old testament is some 1184 pages which may require a kid that reads at below avg. speed about 15 min. This is called seminary, it's not sunday school.

Here is what the church said:
New requirements for seminary graduation are meant to “elevate learning” and better prepare students for lives of service and discipleship. The changes are being implemented throughout the world beginning this school year with this year’s course of study—Doctrine and Covenants and Church history.

“It fits in line with Preach My Gospel, and it fits in line with the Come, Follow Me curriculum,” said Wayne Davis, manager of communications for Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. “We are asking the youth to be more self-sufficient in their testimonies and their knowledge and in their ability to share that knowledge.”
Oh man, I can't believe the church desires our kids to be better able to handle the trials coming our way in this wicked world we live in. Sorry folks what they are going through is harder than what we went through. We should be clapping our hands that the church understands our kids need to be pushed. Those who don't want to graduate or participate still don't have to and those who want to graduate will come out having learned more if they do it.

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