Why this stumbling block?

[Chip]

My friend Aaron made a FREE app for Android phones that conveniently presents the language used in common priesthood ordinances. Aaron is very humble and he loves the gospel (and technology).

At some point, he thought to make an official request from the church for permission to use the copyrighted ordinance language. The church refused him:

I have some bad news, after requesting the copyrighted ordinance language material for use in this application, I was denied access. I am sorry for not checking on this sooner, but I only recently learned of this official request process. I want to thank everyone who helped support this application and made it possible. This application will not be removed, but it will no longer be updated or supported; I will not go actively against church direction.

I would attach the official response but it contains the following: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited."

Here is the page where he explains this:

http://ldsordinances.blogspot.com/2014/ ... uscomments

Here is the app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nces&hl=en

I really can't understand this lawyerly response from the church. Sure, it's standard practice in Bablyon to behave like this, but isn't this the Lord's work? I really find this kind of thing repulsive! It makes me not want to send them my tithing, anymore. I find it impossible to believe that the Savior would operate through a bunch of lawyers in the Last Days. It brings to mind what Christ said about them (lawyers) hedging up the ways of the righteous. I'm tired of believing all kinds of rationale for why things like this are actually appropriate. It just doesn't seem right. It seems like all institutions are accelerating in corruption, with our governments leading the charge. Every one of them is steeped in lawyers nowadays. It's challenging to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[GeeR]

Just a thought. It sounds cold to you but to me in the remoteness of the situation it sounds like the church is just trying to protect itself in as brief a form as possible.

[e-eye]

My friend Aaron made a FREE app for Android phones that conveniently presents the language used in common priesthood ordinances. Aaron is very humble and he loves the gospel (and technology).

At some point, he thought to make an official request from the church for permission to use the copyrighted ordinance language. The church refused him:

I have some bad news, after requesting the copyrighted ordinance language material for use in this application, I was denied access. I am sorry for not checking on this sooner, but I only recently learned of this official request process. I want to thank everyone who helped support this application and made it possible. This application will not be removed, but it will no longer be updated or supported; I will not go actively against church direction.

I would attach the official response but it contains the following: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited."

Here is the page where he explains this:

http://ldsordinances.blogspot.com/2014/ ... uscomments

Here is the app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nces&hl=en

I really can't understand this lawyerly response from the church. Sure, it's standard practice in Bablyon to behave like this, but isn't this the Lord's work? I really find this kind of thing repulsive! It makes me not want to send them my tithing, anymore. I find it impossible to believe that the Savior would operate through a bunch of lawyers in the Last Days. It brings to mind what Christ said about them (lawyers) hedging up the ways of the righteous. I'm tired of believing all kinds of rationale for why things like this are actually appropriate. It just doesn't seem right. It seems like all institutions are accelerating in corruption, with our governments leading the charge. Every one of them is steeped in lawyers nowadays. It's challenging to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wouldn't let something like this make me lose my testimony. It would be nice to have the ordinances handy in an app but you can go online and access them in handbook 2 so it's not like they are not already there online. In fact you can pull them out of the LDS app handbook 2 and you can bookmark it- it's already available. There is an order in all things and in today's world this is even more important so I think the church is careful when it comes to these things.

[boo]

My friend Aaron made a FREE app for Android phones that conveniently presents the language used in common priesthood ordinances. Aaron is very humble and he loves the gospel (and technology).

At some point, he thought to make an official request from the church for permission to use the copyrighted ordinance language. The church refused him:

I have some bad news, after requesting the copyrighted ordinance language material for use in this application, I was denied access. I am sorry for not checking on this sooner, but I only recently learned of this official request process. I want to thank everyone who helped support this application and made it possible. This application will not be removed, but it will no longer be updated or supported; I will not go actively against church direction.

I would attach the official response but it contains the following: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited."

Here is the page where he explains this:

http://ldsordinances.blogspot.com/2014/ ... uscomments

Here is the app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nces&hl=en

I really can't understand this lawyerly response from the church. Sure, it's standard practice in Bablyon to behave like this, but isn't this the Lord's work? I really find this kind of thing repulsive! It makes me not want to send them my tithing, anymore. I find it impossible to believe that the Savior would operate through a bunch of lawyers in the Last Days. It brings to mind what Christ said about them (lawyers) hedging up the ways of the righteous. I'm tired of believing all kinds of rationale for why things like this are actually appropriate. It just doesn't seem right. It seems like all institutions are accelerating in corruption, with our governments leading the charge. Every one of them is steeped in lawyers nowadays. It's challenging to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Congratulations your paradigm has just bumped up against institutional reality . As Joseph said " truth is manifest by proving polarities ". Good luck in resolving the conflicting views.

[Chip]

Just a thought. It sounds cold to you but to me in the remoteness of the situation it sounds like the church is just trying to protect itself in as brief a form as possible.

Possibly, but protect itself from what, in a case like this? Lawyers can't help but inject all kinds of anti-Spirit constraints into things.

It seems to me that Aaron was making a beneficial contribution to God's Kingdom. That app has 50k-100k installs right now. He did this work without any desire for compensation. Our EQ members would all use this app, if they knew about it. Why inhibit things like this if you're the church?

In matters like these, if the institution would just come out and say what the issue is, it would be fine, but when they hide behind secret "privileged" communiques to say "no" without giving any rationale, it just stinks like verminous lawyers. I'm quite sure that if Aaron felt there was a valid rationale behind their denial of permission, he would not have published that one line from their letter, saying nothing else.

[Chip]

I wouldn't let something like this make me lose my testimony. It would be nice to have the ordinances handy in an app but you can go online and access them in handbook 2 so it's not like they are not already there online. In fact you can pull them out of the LDS app handbook 2 and you can bookmark it- it's already available. There is an order in all things and in today's world this is even more important so I think the church is careful when it comes to these things.

It doesn't threaten my testimony, but enforces the notion that is necessary to parse things. Some things are of God and some things are not. The church cannot be swallowed whole.

[Chip]

Congratulations your paradigm has just bumped up against institutional reality . As Joseph said " truth is manifest by proving polarities ". Good luck in resolving the conflicting views.

Would you mind fast forwarding here and telling what resolution you've arrived at?

[JohnnyL]

If you're an anti running a business using Mormon copyrights, the church won't likely go after you.

If you're LDS and have asked for permission ... good luck. I've been down that road before, and it's a canned response.

[Obrien]

My friend Aaron made a FREE app for Android phones that conveniently presents the language used in common priesthood ordinances. Aaron is very humble and he loves the gospel (and technology).

At some point, he thought to make an official request from the church for permission to use the copyrighted ordinance language. The church refused him:

I have some bad news, after requesting the copyrighted ordinance language material for use in this application, I was denied access. I am sorry for not checking on this sooner, but I only recently learned of this official request process. I want to thank everyone who helped support this application and made it possible. This application will not be removed, but it will no longer be updated or supported; I will not go actively against church direction.

I would attach the official response but it contains the following: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited."

Here is the page where he explains this:

http://ldsordinances.blogspot.com/2014/ ... uscomments

Here is the app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nces&hl=en

I really can't understand this lawyerly response from the church. Sure, it's standard practice in Bablyon to behave like this, but isn't this the Lord's work? I really find this kind of thing repulsive! It makes me not want to send them my tithing, anymore. I find it impossible to believe that the Savior would operate through a bunch of lawyers in the Last Days. It brings to mind what Christ said about them (lawyers) hedging up the ways of the righteous. I'm tired of believing all kinds of rationale for why things like this are actually appropriate. It just doesn't seem right. It seems like all institutions are accelerating in corruption, with our governments leading the charge. Every one of them is steeped in lawyers nowadays. It's challenging to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wouldn't let something like this make me lose my testimony. It would be nice to have the ordinances handy in an app but you can go online and access them in handbook 2 so it's not like they are not already there online. In fact you can pull them out of the LDS app handbook 2 and you can bookmark it- it's already available. There is an order in all things and in today's world this is even more important so I think the church is careful when it comes to these things.

Chip, e-eye and ask other priesthood holders - rather than rely on an app or the handbook, try relying on the Spirit when exercising your priesthood.

[Chip]

Chip, e-eye and ask other priesthood holders - rather than rely on an app or the handbook, try relying on the Spirit when exercising your priesthood.

Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I might have over-reacted on this matter, but for the church to claim ownership of the words of priesthood ordinances seems like a strange crutch to wield. Why purport to own them? Can you imagine the early apostles copyrighting the Lord's Prayer and then disallowing others from reproducing it? I can't imagine Jesus approving of that. I can't figure what purpose this serves today. The Lord doesn't need copyrights. If I were him, I think I'd actually be rather pissed that my stewards were enlisting the legal machinations of corrupt governments, which carry the tacit threat of force, to stymie the spreading of my words. He says his words will hiss forth, not be modulated by a bunch of lawyers.

[Lizzy60]

Quote --Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I can't agree with this at all. I don't believe in a God that will refuse to honor an ordinance just because the proper wording isn't used, or vice versa. He looks on the heart, His will is the only things that matters.

[Chip]

Quote --Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I can't agree with this at all. I don't believe in a God that will refuse to honor an ordinance just because the proper wording isn't used, or vice versa. He looks on the heart, His will is the only things that matters.

I'd like to think that, too, but we've been told in church many times that ordinances must contain certain phrases, like "receive the Holy Ghost", etc. There's ever only two or three critical things to remember, but they differ by ordinance.

[DPeterson]

Quote --Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I can't agree with this at all. I don't believe in a God that will refuse to honor an ordinance just because the proper wording isn't used, or vice versa. He looks on the heart, His will is the only things that matters.

I'd like to think that, too, but we've been told in church many times that ordinances must contain certain phrases, like "receive the Holy Ghost", etc. There's ever only two or three critical things to remember, but they differ by ordinance.

Right, I think that's her point. "We've been told" doesn't equal, is actually true. "Receive the Holy Ghost" is a suggestion to the person you're laying hands on. It doesn't necessarily happen when the phrase is said.

[abelchirino]

I've contacted the church before for a similar reason. I wanted to request permission to use a picture for a website of mine so I did. I received permission.

Now what your friend posted, the excerpt of the response that he received, is not saying that he cannot post the response. It just means that if anybody else receives the email, other than the person to whom it was sent, then THAT person cannot do anything with that information because THAT is prohibited.

Don't be offended by this. It wasn't meant to be offensive. It is a very natural thing for institutions to do to protect the privacy of the person involved (in this case your friend). It is as a Prophet/Apostle (I can't remember who it was) was told when he got offended for something another person had done. His friend asked him if the other person did it on purpose. His answer was no. Then his friend told him (and I'm paraphrasing) that one who finds offense where it never existed is a fool. Am I calling you a fool? No, everybody has had experiences like that every now and then. What I'm telling you is that getting offended is a decision. It is not something that someone forces on you, you choose to be offended. Don't choose to be offended. Choose humility and submissiveness (if that is even a word).

Remember the story of the prodigal son. JRH made a good point one, both sons were prodigal sons. Certainly getting offended was one of the sins of the older son.

As for your tithing comment, a Bishop of mine gave me some really humbling counsel once. God doesn't need your money. Neither does the Church. They will not crumble to the ground because you have decided to stop paying tithing. The Church will continue with or without any of us. It is you and me who need to pay tithing. We are the ones who will crumble if we don't pay our tithing. Just like President Packer told Elder Andersen when he was called as a Seventy, "You are a nobody. I'm a nobody. Never forget that because the minute you do God will remind you and it won't be pleasant" (I think that's how Elder Andersen told the story).

I don't know why the Church did not give permission to your friend. But as others have started, as well intentioned as your friend is, it is not necessary for him to do that because the Church had made those things very available for everybody. They just found it wise, for some reason, to not give permission to your friend. Lets be humble and respect their decision-God will bless us for that.

[Obrien]

Chip - if you roll as you're directed by the Spirit, the standard verbiage will not matter.

not to derail, but the church has changed the words, mode and symbols of the Sacrament. the nephites knelt during their sacrament. the church used to as well. we used to pray with our hands raised to heaven - no more. we used to say and use wine as a symbol of Christ's blood - no more. perhaps most interestingly, the relief society used to prepare the Sacrament on the table. reminds me of the women dressing the Lord for His burial.

all these things have changed, yet we still think we're ok because the priest reads the words right....

if we're ok doing it as we're doing it, it's only because the Lord accepts our efforts. it's the same thing for ordinances.
God bless -

[Chip]

Right, I think that's her point. "We've been told" doesn't equal, is actually true. "Receive the Holy Ghost" is a suggestion to the person you're laying hands on. It doesn't necessarily happen when the phrase is said.

I know, and one must also remember to confirm them a member of the church - and use their full name - and possibly cite the Melch. Priesthood. There are several things to remember, if you go by the book. I'm not confident I know them all at the moment. If you don't do it right, you will be corrected by those around you.

[DPeterson]

The Church will continue with or without any of us.

The Church is us, not Salt Lake. So without us it will not continue on. Just sayin'.

D&C 10

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

[DPeterson]

If you don't do it right, you will be corrected by those around you.

Ain't that the truth!

[Lizzy60]

Quote --Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I can't agree with this at all. I don't believe in a God that will refuse to honor an ordinance just because the proper wording isn't used, or vice versa. He looks on the heart, His will is the only things that matters.

I'd like to think that, too, but we've been told in church many times that ordinances must contain certain phrases, like "receive the Holy Ghost", etc. There's ever only two or three critical things to remember, but they differ by ordinance.

I was an ordinance worker for many years. One time in Initiatory, a certain physical motion was left out by the worker, and after numerous repetitions, the mistake was discovered, and the entire ordinance for those proxies was repeated. It was extensive.

Then, a short time later, the Church changed the procedures, and those motions were never done after that. So, literally one week, we workers were sure that the ordinance would not be effective in God's eyes if we let a mistake go uncorrected, then the next week, that mistake was no longer a part of the procedure.

[Chip]

I've contacted the church before for a similar reason. I wanted to request permission to use a picture for a website of mine so I did. I received permission.

Now what your friend posted, the excerpt of the response that he received, is not saying that he cannot post the response. It just means that if anybody else receives the email, other than the person to whom it was sent, then THAT person cannot do anything with that information because THAT is prohibited.

Don't be offended by this. It wasn't meant to be offensive. It is a very natural thing for institutions to do to protect the privacy of the person involved (in this case your friend). It is as a Prophet/Apostle (I can't remember who it was) was told when he got offended for something another person had done. His friend asked him if the other person did it on purpose. His answer was no. Then his friend told him (and I'm paraphrasing) that one who finds offense where it never existed is a fool. Am I calling you a fool? No, everybody has had experiences like that every now and then. What I'm telling you is that getting offended is a decision. It is not something that someone forces on you, you choose to be offended. Don't choose to be offended. Choose humility and submissiveness (if that is even a word).

Remember the story of the prodigal son. JRH made a good point one, both sons were prodigal sons. Certainly getting offended was one of the sins of the older son.

As for your tithing comment, a Bishop of mine gave me some really humbling counsel once. God doesn't need your money. Neither does the Church. They will not crumble to the ground because you have decided to stop paying tithing. The Church will continue with or without any of us. It is you and me who need to pay tithing. We are the ones who will crumble if we don't pay our tithing. Just like President Packer told Elder Andersen when he was called as a Seventy, "You are a nobody. I'm a nobody. Never forget that because the minute you do God will remind you and it won't be pleasant" (I think that's how Elder Andersen told the story).

I don't know why the Church did not give permission to your friend. But as others have started, as well intentioned as your friend is, it is not necessary for him to do that because the Church had made those things very available for everybody. They just found it wise, for some reason, to not give permission to your friend. Lets be humble and respect their decision-God will bless us for that.

I appreciate your words. I would have to say that I am a fool much of the time and I can accept being a "nobody". I know the gospel is real and it works. I'm very blessed and in a good place, thanks to the church. I don't want to be an ingrate. Some things just set me off. I agree that there's no point in fighting their decision. Right or wrong, we'd be blessed to go along with it. Thanks, Everyone, for posting your thoughts.

[Chip]

I was an ordinance worker for many years. One time in Initiatory, a certain physical motion was left out by the worker, and after numerous repetitions, the mistake was discovered, and the entire ordinance for those proxies was repeated. It was extensive.

Then, a short time later, the Church changed the procedures, and those motions were never done after that. So, literally one week, we workers were sure that the ordinance would not be effective in God's eyes if we let a mistake go uncorrected, then the next week, that mistake was no longer a part of the procedure.

It seems, as Obrien said, if our efforts are accepted by the Lord, it's because he accommodates whatever framework we've been given to operate within. Very interesting about the Relief Society preparing the sacrament.

[JohnnyL]

Quote --Agreed, but some certain things must be included for any ordinance to be efficacious. Most of us need quick refreshers when performing the less-common ordinances.

I can't agree with this at all. I don't believe in a God that will refuse to honor an ordinance just because the proper wording isn't used, or vice versa. He looks on the heart, His will is the only things that matters.

I'd like to think that, too, but we've been told in church many times that ordinances must contain certain phrases, like "receive the Holy Ghost", etc. There's ever only two or three critical things to remember, but they differ by ordinance.

Right, I think that's her point. "We've been told" doesn't equal, is actually true. "Receive the Holy Ghost" is a suggestion to the person you're laying hands on. It doesn't necessarily happen when the phrase is said.

It is not a suggestion--it is a command, and it is an essential part of the ordinance. Whether it happens or not at the time, is irrelevant. See, this app would be very helpful...
Ask Moses about messing up on priesthood use. ;)

Chip - if you roll as you're directed by the Spirit, the standard verbiage will not matter.
not to derail, but the church has changed the words, mode and symbols of the Sacrament. the nephites knelt during their sacrament. the church used to as well. we used to pray with our hands raised to heaven - no more. we used to say and use wine as a symbol of Christ's blood - no more. perhaps most interestingly, the relief society used to prepare the Sacrament on the table. reminds me of the women dressing the Lord for His burial.
all these things have changed, yet we still think we're ok because the priest reads the words right....

if we're ok doing it as we're doing it, it's only because the Lord accepts our efforts. it's the same thing for ordinances.
God bless -

The church changes things, not man. And no, WE are not the church. Without you, the church would continue to exist. Look to the prophets. The Spirit will direct you to do as the prophets have said to do with priesthood ordinances. I believe it was Pres. Joseph Smith that said, what is wrong at one time, is right at another, and vice-versa.