Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

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Zowieink
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Zowieink »

And since my wife passed away it's been down right difficult. I would like real answers. Im tired of feeling terribly terribly bad when the stress and grief gets too much. My urologist says its beneficial as well as my general practitioner. So why are we condemned so much for this?

boo
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by boo »

Zowieink wrote:Got any bishops in here. I'd like their take on the matter. From this old guy its been a battle ever since I joined the church. What is the real story? It seems to me that what goes on in your head is far more relevant. If your dreaming about sex while masturbating that probably isn't good. But if you aren't thinking anything but of taking care of matters, that seems acceptable to this salty old guy.
I qualify I guess or did in a former life. I have long believed that this issue has been over emphasized and entirely too much pain and guilt has been created by false standards. As my stake president advised all the bishops when you interview young men don't ask them if they masturbate because they ALL do, ask them when the last time was. He also said he wouldn't not give an adult a TR if this was only an occasional practice. Zowieink I think your comment is truly novel ( other characterizations come to mind but I will spare you). You show me a young man who says he isn't sexually fantasizing when he masturbates and I will show you someone who is trying to deceive himself or you or both. If I faced the challenges that you do I wouldn't devote too much time to worrying about it. The grace of the savior will redeem those who love and serve him. We spend too much time thinking, as Denver put it,that sin has only to do with our genitals . When it is really about our mistreatment of others
Last edited by boo on August 14th, 2014, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbalm
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by jbalm »

Zowieink wrote:It seems to me that what goes on in your head is far more relevant. If your dreaming about sex while masturbating that probably isn't good. But if you aren't thinking anything but of taking care of matters, that seems acceptable to this salty old guy.

Just hum "Come, Come Ye Saints."

e-eye
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by e-eye »

I think the greater problem is the pornography & lustful desires that usually are associated with masturbation. It's also good for man not to be alone marriage is important. I do think masturbation is a sin to what degree that I am not so sure of. There are a lot of single sisters out there young and old so getting married again may be a good option.

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Zowieink
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Zowieink »

:ymblushing:

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Zowieink
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Zowieink »

Its difficult for others who never lost a wife or husband to understand. I married and was sealed for eternity. The idea of remarriage and sex with another partner is appalling. Im old enough to see the end of my life and the difficult scenarios that are coming to pass shortly. Perhaps some day. My most favorite dream is rising to meet the Saviour at the second coming and joining hands with my resurrected wife who is coming down with Him and meeting the Saviour together. So the idea of another spouse is difficult to conceive of. So now I've revealed too much about myself. Time to be quiet again.

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Obrien
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Obrien »

Z - I think the dream you express is of far greater import than any struggles you experience along the way. God bless you with peace and comfort.

hyloglyph
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by hyloglyph »

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Last edited by hyloglyph on August 16th, 2014, 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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stillwater
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by stillwater »

hyloglyph wrote:...church hierarchy has inserted themselves into the matter.
PRET-ty juvenile, hyloglyph.

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shestalou
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by shestalou »

jbalm wrote:This just seems like common sense to me.

Regarding the term "self-abuse," I would guess that if non-mos heard that a dude was engaging in "self-abuse," they would assume that person was cutting himself, or something truly abusive.
To be honest that is what I originally thought this post was about, I have never heard masterbation called self abuse, interesting. 8-|

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Obrien
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Obrien »

This isn't my thread, and I had doubts about it going anywhere. I am pleased I was very wrong. 777 views and 20 or so substantive comments, many of which were from us guys. this subject hits close to home, and deserves more attention.

e-eye
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by e-eye »

Obrien wrote:This isn't my thread, and I had doubts about it going anywhere. I am pleased I was very wrong. 777 views and 20 or so substantive comments, many of which were from us guys. this subject hits close to home, and deserves more attention.

Most guys I talk to that are honest and friends admit they notice other women and are attracted to them despite being married. The temptation to not be morally clean is strong when we are in our reproductive years and I Think do to the blessing of The Lord we lose that drive some as we age . I think we are that much better off if we can conquer the weaknesses when we are in them but the atonement applies wether we overcome them now or later as The Lord never gives us more than we can handle.

When I was a child I Did childish things but as one matures many of those things you grow out of some we don't and we fight them throughout our lives.

Bambi
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Bambi »

jbalm wrote: Apparently, a lot of the boys were reading "Miracle of Forgiveness," which, if you've ever read it, makes you feel like you're going to hell for sure. It's pretty funny.
I read that book once and probably won't touch it again - biggest guilt trip ever.

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Obrien
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Obrien »

I think words like " pornography", "moral cleanliness", "chastity" and " virtue" all get unhappily coflated in a discussion regarding " self abuse". it's just far easier for LDS© to lump it all together and call it a grievous sin in order to keep up the guilt.
I agree, though a bit less violently, with hyloglyph that these topics are best discussed with our children in the home, rather at LDS©. I long ago decided that the bishop has virtually no need to know about anything me or my family chooses to do.

Thomas
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Thomas »

So, now I know what spousal abuse means.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Rose Garden »

Thomas wrote:So, now I know what spousal abuse means.
=)) =)) =)) Do you engage in it often?

If I'd known this thread was about SEX I'd have tuned in sooner. I was one of those who thought we were talking about people physically hurting themselves.

I am reminded of this old thread where it seems that the general consensus was that masturbation is bad. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23842" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Obrien
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Obrien »

Thomas - trenchant observation. however, it's still a bit confusing. I can think of at least 2 very probable definitions for "spousal abuse" in context of this thread.

dauser
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by dauser »

The Gospel draws a line in the sand.

We fight our personal chastity battles at "the self abuse" line in the sand.

We men fight a bloody, brutal, endless war day and night against our natural man.

If the line were drawn farther away we would fight it there.

Most churches draw the line at the pornography line or the fornication line or the adultery line, or the gay line, or the transgender line, or the rape line.

The man that can control his physical appetites can control his thoughts, his checkbook, his schedule, his entertainment, his diet, his surroundings, his career, his destiny as an heir of eternal life, his worlds without number.

Heavenly Father is male and vulnerable and fights his natural man. Heavenly Father NEEDS his sexxxxy wife! She needs to be needed.

Without Her He would fall, cease to be God and ALL THIS would vanish.

Father knows by experience it is not good for man to be alone, cannot be left alone, too much depends on Him.

He knows our pain and he is all smiles, we fight at that line, against great odds, he wants us to fight, then he gives us a wife and we fight more.

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Zowieink
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Zowieink »

So the question become: does the guilt associated with masturbation come from the Holy Ghost? Does it come from Satan making us feel really, really bad about ourselves. Or, does it come from our cultural background, as in, we've been told since a very young age to not play with ourselves, etc., so that we feel guilt because we have been taught and now associate masturbation = guilt? I'm sure in the next life this is not an issue, but I wonder if any of the other worlds that have been created have had this "problem". In other words, is it ingrained into very spirits?

Another thought: If a man or woman abstain from sex or masturbation (in any form) completely, how do they adjust to married life? I would think that it would be difficult to adjust into the sexual side.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Rose Garden »

dauser wrote:The Gospel draws a line in the sand.

We fight our personal chastity battles at "the self abuse" line in the sand.

We men fight a bloody, brutal, endless war day and night against our natural man.

If the line were drawn farther away we would fight it there.

Most churches draw the line at the pornography line or the fornication line or the adultery line, or the gay line, or the transgender line, or the rape line.

The man that can control his physical appetites can control his thoughts, his checkbook, his schedule, his entertainment, his diet, his surroundings, his career, his destiny as an heir of eternal life, his worlds without number.

Heavenly Father is male and vulnerable and fights his natural man. Heavenly Father NEEDS his sexxxxy wife! She needs to be needed.

Without Her He would fall, cease to be God and ALL THIS would vanish.

Father knows by experience it is not good for man to be alone, cannot be left alone, too much depends on Him.

He knows our pain and he is all smiles, we fight at that line, against great odds, he wants us to fight, then he gives us a wife and we fight more.
Wow!

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jbalm
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by jbalm »

dauser wrote:The Gospel draws a line in the sand.

We fight our personal chastity battles at "the self abuse" line in the sand.

We men fight a bloody, brutal, endless war day and night against our natural man.

If the line were drawn farther away we would fight it there.

Most churches draw the line at the pornography line or the fornication line or the adultery line, or the gay line, or the transgender line, or the rape line.

The man that can control his physical appetites can control his thoughts, his checkbook, his schedule, his entertainment, his diet, his surroundings, his career, his destiny as an heir of eternal life, his worlds without number.

Heavenly Father is male and vulnerable and fights his natural man. Heavenly Father NEEDS his sexxxxy wife! She needs to be needed.

Without Her He would fall, cease to be God and ALL THIS would vanish.

Father knows by experience it is not good for man to be alone, cannot be left alone, too much depends on Him.

He knows our pain and he is all smiles, we fight at that line, against great odds, he wants us to fight, then he gives us a wife and we fight more.
It's this kind of hyperbole that torments the young men. There have even been young men who have killed themselves because they were shamed so intensely for engaging in "self-abuse."

Sometimes it seems as if people don't have enough to worry about, so they create new sins to rail against.

It's like the hyper-modesty thing that seems to be all the rage in Utah lately.

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stillwater
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by stillwater »

dauser wrote:The Gospel draws a line in the sand.
We fight our personal chastity battles at "the self abuse" line in the sand.
Isn't it nice that we can create all kinds of interesting doctrines and put the label "The Gospel" on them? It makes testimony meeting so much easier, because people can talk for an hour without actually having to say anything. The content doesn't matter as long as we leave the meeting knowing that everyone knows "the gospel" or "this gospel" is "true."

In LDS discourse "the Gospel' is shorthand for "this bundle of thousands of ideas that I'm not bothering to unpack". It's so vague as to be meaningless.

In the scriptures, "the gospel" actually means something. And it has nothing to do with drawing a line at self-abuse.

Who is drawing lines? Why are they doing so? Can you refer me to where they drew lines? Do they have authority to do so? An attempt to blame "the gospel" for drawing lines, as though such an idea makes sense at all, is offensive. It's how God's religion turns into man's religion.

I don't intend any offense at pointing this out. I appreciate you being willing to express your feelings. But seriously, we can't settle for vague references to "the gospel" as though it is an entity making rules for us. It's how culture takes over for doctrine.

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Obrien
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by Obrien »

^^^^^^ awesome post Bob. a thank didn't do it justice.

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jbalm
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by jbalm »

In mormonism, all too often "drawing a line" is a euphemism for "building a wall around the law" or "aiming beyond the mark."

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ajax
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Re: Self-Abuse: Victory by age rather than repentance?

Post by ajax »

stillwater wrote:Who is drawing lines? Why are they doing so? Can you refer me to where they drew lines? Do they have authority to do so?
C'mon Bob, all these years and you still don't know?...it's the keys man, the Brethren, giving heed to all their words as if from His own mouth. When they speak the debate ends. Two-piece swimwear, shoulders, knee length whatever, earrings, masturbation, thee-thou's in prayer, what people eat or drink, hair cuts, facial hair, shirt color, passing trays, denying priesthood, building malls, girls camp, scout camp, dances etc..... it is ALL the gospel incorporated.

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