Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

I finally purchased the book and read it. To catch people up, author Denver Snuffer, who claims to have had the Second Comforter and seen Jesus Christ, in his book "The Second Comforter," was excommunicated for his book, "Passing the Heavenly Gift."

I have been fascinated by Snuffer, although I don't always agree with him. I have read some of his books but not all. I generally to find him an uplifting read and he has helped me recenter my worship and attention to Christ. He has helped me want to me more righteous. All good things.

Here are my takeaway from PTHG:

His premise for the condemnation of the Saints being the failure to construct the Nauvoo temple was sound, but focused on the wrong concept. While the Saints technically finished the temple in the nick of time, (or almost finished it), the blessing promised did not materialize. It seem pretty clear the Lord was unhappy with the progress and outcome, otherwise the Saints wouldn't have been driven west and the temple wouldn't have been burned. As a side note, the architecture was always doomed. The St. George temple has the same architecture inside and it has settling on the second floor so they can't even use it. However, I would have focused on the condemnation outlined by the Lord in Section 84. That has never been lifted and was the premise of the original "fullness of the Priesthood" being taken away. It is not argued, and Ezra Taft Benson reiterated the condemnation in 1986. I would go back to that time as being the starting point for the Lord not being pleased with the Church, not the expulsion from Nauvoo.

His outlining of post Joseph Smith prophetic visionary lack was unbalanced He focused heavily on statements made by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and J. Reuben Clark as prophets who denied, even eschewed divine experiences. He completely neglects Joseph F. Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Matthew Cowley, and others, who have claimed to see Jesus, who have had divine and miraculous experiences attend them. His argument about the lack of visionary experiences was not fully fleshed out. Lack of evidence of divine experiences among our more recent apostles does not mean they DON'T have them - they may be pressed not to share - and that may be precisely because we are under condemnation!

His argument on correlation cuts both ways and is a mixed bag Correlation was pointed at as a substitute for divine intervention in phase 4. While it may be true that paid committee members seem to have more influence of doctrine and policy than in the past - and I do believe that happens too often - often those committee are just librarians, ensuring that new policies, procedures, doctrine and teaching are IN LINE with revealed and inspired doctrine and teachings. Policy and procedures change but must reflect revealed truth. In essence, they can keep the Church balanced and focused as a help to the Brethren.

His argument about the gentile prophecies is overly focused on the Church It's true the Church is a gentile church and it will have its reckoning and cleansing, but the prophecies in the Book of Mormon do NOT just have to be focused on those that read it as the primary target of the prophecy. The gentile prophecies in the book of Mormon most likely encompass a wider group, including America, the West, and Europe, if you compare them to Isaiah or Avahim Gileadi's concepts of Israel and Jerusalem. The fact that he thinks it's only targeted to the church because "Why would Moroni say this to people that aren't reading it?" ignores the fact that those that are reading it would recognize calamities coming upon America and West as prophetic when they happen to others as well as themselves. It doesn't just need to happen to the LDS Church, although part of the Church will likely be affected.

His argument that the Church is getting less and less like Joseph's Church was hollow - If anything, when judging the Church by it's Apostolic leadership, there is more spirit, less contention, and more unanimity in decisions now than in the past. As phases go, his best argument was Phase 2. He over-idealizes Phase 1, and Phase 3 he ignored contrary evidence of divine manifestations, while phase 4, correlation and business endeavors are used as evidence of a total drift. I just didn't buy it. I tried. I wanted to believe him. But I tend to see Mark Skousen's understanding in Missing the Mark as a better premise for where the Church is. It is under condemnation, but it's moving to the higher branches of the Tree of Knowledge getting prepared to come out from under condemnation and go toward the Tree of Life. That doesn't mean that there won't be widespread cleansing and apostasy. The Church culture is adrift and focused on riches, but it's always been that way - that's why they didn't finish the Nauvoo Temple in the first place. This is more of a problem of the masses, not the leadership, although the two are tied together much more than we realize. In many ways, Brigham may not have been the best for prophecy, priesthood, and revelation, but his role was to hold the Church together during some touch years of scourging in Utah, which included some unpleasant and sometimes violent side affects. In this way he's more like Joshua than Moses. So, God is in control and He gives us the leaders we need at the time.

I do buy his premise that we are in a preparatory phase - I'm happy he still gives deference to the Church's authority to baptize, proselyte, spread the Book of Mormon, in a preparatory fashion. I am more cautious of prophetic utterances, making sure they are in line with the spirit before I accept them as truth. But even if I feel contrary, as he does on some things, he doesn't advocate bucking the authority, but submitted to it willingly. He advocated obedience. That is all good.

His book does not AT ALL seem like grounds for excommunication - It may have some poor arguments and have a bit of a bitter taste for the modern Church's direction, obey it even though we must, but in the end, he advocates for the church's leadership and authority, and his book has helped many stay in the church. He isn't as wedded to his ideas as it seems. He puts it forth as a possible theory. That should be understood. He admits he may be wrong! That's very big of him.

In the end, Denver Snuffer is for me, a mixed bag. He puts forth very good and enlightening ideas, but it's like there is an acerbic thorn for the leadership that festers in his comments and on his blog. It's neither meek nor lowly of heart. But he's also hurting because of what happened to him. I feel for him. I hope he can get his blessing back eventually like Avrahim Gileadi did.
Last edited by pjbrownie on January 13th, 2014, 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
lemuel
Operating Thetan
Posts: 993

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by lemuel »

Don't know if you're right, but you make a plausible case in an even-handed way.

User avatar
Hyrcanus
captain of 100
Posts: 716

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Hyrcanus »

pjbrownie wrote:I finally purchased the book and read it. To catch people up, author Denver Snuffer, who claims to have had the Second Comforter and seen Jesus Christ, in his book "The Second Comforter," was excommunicated for his book, "Passing the Heavenly Gift."

I have been fascinated by Snuffer, although I don't always agree with him. I have read some of his books but not all. I generally to find him an uplifting read and he has helped me recenter my worship and attention to Christ. He has helped me want to me more righteous. All good things.

Here are my takeaway from PTHG:

His premise for the condemnation of the Saints being the failure to construct the Nauvoo temple was sound, but focused on the wrong concept. While the Saints technically finished the temple in the nick of time, (or almost finished it), the blessing promised did not materialize. It seem pretty clear the Lord was unhappy with the progress and outcome, otherwise the Saints wouldn't have been driven west and the temple wouldn't have been burned. As a side note, the architecture was always doomed. The St. George temple has the same architecture inside and it has settling on the second floor so they can't even use it. However, I would have focused on the condemnation outlined by the Lord in Section 84. That has never been lifted and was the premise of the original "fullness of the Priesthood" being taken away. It is not argued, and Ezra Taft Benson reiterated the condemnation in 1986. I would go back to that time as being the starting point for the Lord not being pleased with the Church, not the expulsion from Nauvoo.

His outlining of post Joseph Smith prophetic visionary lack was unbalanced He focused heavily on statements made by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and J. Reuben Clark as prophets who denied, even eschewed divine experiences. He completely neglects Joseph F. Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Matthew Cowley, and others, who have claimed to see Jesus, who have had divine and miraculous experiences attend them. His argument about lack equally no was not fully fleshed out. Lack of evidence of divine experiences among our more recent apostles does not mean they DON'T have them - they may be pressed not to share - and that may be precisely because we are under condemnation!

His argument on correlation cuts both ways and is a mixed bag Correlation was pointed at as a substitute for divine intervention in phase 4. While it may be true that paid committee members seem to have more influence of doctrine and policy than in the past - and I do believe that happens too often - often those committee are just librarians, ensuring that new policies, procedures, doctrine and teaching are IN LINE with revealed and inspired doctrine and teachings. Policy and procedures change but must reflect revealed truth. In essence, they can keep the Church balanced and focused as a help to the Brethren.

His argument about the gentile prophecies is overly focused on the Church It's true the Church is a gentile church and it will have its reckoning and cleansing, but the prophecies in the Book of Mormon do NOT just have to be focused on those that read it as the primary target or the prophecy. The gentile prophecies in the book of Mormon most likely encompass a wider group, including America, the West, and Europe, if you compare them to Isaiah or Avahim Gileadi's concepts of Israel and Jerusalem. The fact that he thinks it's only targeted to the church because "Why would Moroni say this to people that aren't reading it?" ignores the fact that those that are reading it would recognize calamities coming upon America and West as prophetic when they happen to others as well as themselves. It doesn't just need to happen to the LDS Church, although part of the Church will likely be affected.

His argument that the Church is getting less and less like Joseph's Church was hollow - If anything, when judging the Church by it's Apostolic leadership, there is more spirit, less contention, and more unanimity in decisions now than in the past. As phases go, his best argument was Phase 2. He over-idealizes Phase 1, and Phase 3 he ignored contrary evidence of divine manifestations, while phase 4, correlation and business endeavors are used as evidence of a total drift. I just didn't buy it. I tried. I wanted to believe him. But I tend to see Mark Skousen's understanding in Missing the Mark as a better premise for where the Church is. It is under condemnation, but it's moving to the higher branches of the Tree of Knowledge getting prepared to come out from under condemnation and go toward the Tree of Life. That doesn't mean that there won't be widespread cleansing and apostasy. The Church culture is adrift and focused on riches, but it's always been that way - that's why they didn't finish the Nauvoo Temple in the first place. This is more of a problem of the masses, not the leadership. In many ways, Brigham may not have been the best for prophecy, priesthood, and revelation, but his role was to hold the Church together during some touch years of scourging in Utah, which included some unpleasant and sometimes violent side affects. In this way he's more like Joshua than Moses.

I do buy his premise that we are in a preparatory phase - I'm happy he still gives deference to the Church's authority to baptize, proselyte, spread the Book of Mormon, in a preparatory fashion. I am more cautious of utterances, making sure they are in line with the spirit before I accept them as truth. But even if I feel contrary, as he does on some things, he doesn't advocate bucking the authority, but submitted to it willingly. He advocated obedience. That is all good.

His book does not AT ALL seem like grounds for excommunication - It may have some poor arguments and have a bit of a bitter taste for the modern Church's direction, obey it even though we must, but in the end, he advocates for the church's leadership and authority, and his book has helped many stay in the church. He isn't as wedded to his ideas as it seems. He puts it forth as a possible theory. That should be understood. He admits he may be wrong! That's very big of him.

In the end, Denver Snuffer is for me, a mixed bag. He puts forth very good and enlightening ideas, but it's like there is an acerbic thorn for the leadership that festers in his comments. It's neither meek nor lowly of heart. But he's also hurting because of what happened to him. I feel for him. I hope he can get his blessing back eventually like Avrahim Gileadi did.
Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Just by way of personal experiences, I personally heard James E. Faust relate a personal visitation by the Savior he had in a leadership meeting he had in our stake. I know he related the same in other meetings, as I've seen other references to this floated around online.

User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

Good to know. I was puzzled how he ignored recent evidence of divine manifestations. They aren't necessarily public record, but Joseph F. Smith's vision of the spirit world as well as Lorenzo Snow's vision of the Savior on the spiral staircase in the SL Temple are pretty well documented. There's also the rumored George Albert Smith prophecy of the calamities before the Second Coming.

Oh, I had one other complaint - his dismissal of the sealing changes - People used to seal themselves to prophets, and now they do it for their families - since Wilford Woodruff. His interpretation of the sealing power, Malachi 4:5-6, "the sealing of the hearts of the children to the fathers . . . and the hearts of the fathers to the children," has an interesting description, but in the end, both interpretations will get us there. If people are sealed to their ancestors, who are in turned sealed back to father Adam, who had the fullness of the Priesthood, the sealing situation works that way just as it would if we were sealed to Joseph Smith, who also had the sealing power and the fulness of the Priesthood. In fact, under Woodruff's way, all people have the ordinance done for them, just as they do with baptisms. Furthermore, if one only qualifies for the sealing power and the fullness of the Priesthood by God anyway, as he contends, then the ordinance is merely an invitation anyway, as he also contends. So . . . why does it matter . . . and that includes why some of the endowment ordinances were changed to be more palatable. It is merely an invitation all must receive, and symbols and signs can adapt to the culture, as long as the fruits of men's labors qualify them for the real deal, the real deal will give them the full enchilada anyway.

Again, I really think his strongest message was the awful state of affairs the Church was in during Stage 2. It has literally had to compensate since then, and the contradictions and changes that came our of Stage 2 have been a stumbling block for the Church, ie. blacks and the priesthood, Adam God, blood atonement, polygamy as requisite for exaltation. Rolling back the clock on much of that has been a difficult chore. It's evident the Lord can allow the Church to be led astray to SOME extent, particularly if it's under condemnation. But we have no one to blame but ourselves.

User avatar
lemuel
Operating Thetan
Posts: 993

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by lemuel »

Hyrcanus wrote: Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Just by way of personal experiences, I personally heard James E. Faust relate a personal visitation by the Savior he had in a leadership meeting he had in our stake. I know he related the same in other meetings, as I've seen other references to this floated around online.
Good to hear from Faust. He was a good man. I believe it. I wish we heard more of that type of thing. To me, that's the concern, that these kinds of testimonies are hid under a bushel. It's hard to believe a testimony we've never heard.

User avatar
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13008

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Original_Intent »

lemuel wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Just by way of personal experiences, I personally heard James E. Faust relate a personal visitation by the Savior he had in a leadership meeting he had in our stake. I know he related the same in other meetings, as I've seen other references to this floated around online.
Good to hear from Faust. He was a good man. I believe it. I wish we heard more of that type of thing. To me, that's the concern, that these kinds of testimonies are hid under a bushel. It's hard to believe a testimony we've never heard.
I don't believe that every general authority has the experiences to bear testimony of, but I do believe that there are those that can.

My personal take on it is that if they speak openly of it that it would just place the church membership under further condemnation, because I don't think most people would do anything different even with those testimonies. There have been cases where I have heard an authority give a very carefully worded testimony, and the spirit has testified to me that they were bearing witness of a personal visitation from the Savior. There are less than a handful that I have felt that.

Although I believe mistakes are made, I still support the hierarchy. I try not to judge what I consider to be their failings. I try to follow the Savior and not men.

User avatar
TZONE
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1724

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by TZONE »

I will add two comments here. It seemed like a fair review to me. i have not read it yet, but broke down to see what the fuss was about in the book itself.

The first comment in the OP was this
Policy and procedures change
Depends who you ask,
"And, unlike other organizations that can change their policies and even their doctrines, our policies are determined by the truths God has identified as unchangeable.(Elder Oaks, 2013, GC)" http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the second is, he point about the fulness and the experiences of the divine was not to disprove (my opinion) that all did not have them but the fact was most did not. And the few who have seen teh savior that does not mean they have received the fulness of hte priesthood. you must be received by the son and the Father to have that priesthood. Thus they are operating the church, collectively, maybe not individually, without the Father.

D&C 101, the parable of the watchtower in my opinion is a parable of that temple not being completed and what happened because it was not built.

I touched on those two points here already so I won't go into more depth on those two points.

viewtopic.php?f=14&p=439209" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Hyrcanus
captain of 100
Posts: 716

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Hyrcanus »

Original_Intent wrote:I don't believe that every general authority has the experiences to bear testimony of, but I do believe that there are those that can.

My personal take on it is that if they speak openly of it that it would just place the church membership under further condemnation, because I don't think most people would do anything different even with those testimonies. There have been cases where I have heard an authority give a very carefully worded testimony, and the spirit has testified to me that they were bearing witness of a personal visitation from the Savior. There are less than a handful that I have felt that.

Although I believe mistakes are made, I still support the hierarchy. I try not to judge what I consider to be their failings. I try to follow the Savior and not men.
Agree that not every GA has the experience, I've heard at least one member of the Seventy explicitly say he has not had the experience.

I don't want to misrepresent President Faust, but he said something to the effect of larger gatherings not always being appropriate for sharing, due to the exposure the comments may receive.

I think your last comment is pretty well spot on what the leader of any church would ask of it's followers and certainly lines up with the council of the current leadership.

Facing East
captain of 50
Posts: 58

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Facing East »

.
Last edited by Facing East on November 4th, 2016, 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thomas
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4622

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Thomas »

pjbrownie wrote: His outlining of post Joseph Smith prophetic visionary lack was unbalanced He focused heavily on statements made by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and J. Reuben Clark as prophets who denied, even eschewed divine experiences. He completely neglects Joseph F. Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Matthew Cowley, and others, who have claimed to see Jesus, who have had divine and miraculous experiences attend them. His argument about the lack of visionary experiences was not fully fleshed out. Lack of evidence of divine experiences among our more recent apostles does not mean they DON'T have them - they may be pressed not to share - and that may be precisely because we are under condemnation!
When did Joseph F Smith and Lorenzo Snow claim to see Christ? Joseph F Smith testified he had never received revelation. Of course he did give revelation two months before he died, but previous to that he did not.

Lorenzo Snow never claimed to see Christ. His granddaughter claimed he did, many years after his death.

User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

When did Joseph F Smith and Lorenzo Snow claim to see Christ? Joseph F Smith testified he had never received revelation. Of course he did give revelation two months before he died, but previous to that he did not.

Lorenzo Snow never claimed to see Christ. His granddaughter claimed he did, many years after his death.

Joseph F. had a vision of the redemption of the dead. Snow's granddaughter gives that history as does his son, LeRoi. Here is the account: "In 1933, LeRoi C. Snow wrote about the Savior’s appearance to his father, Lorenzo Snow, within the confines of the Salt Lake Temple in 1898. At this time, Lorenzo Snow was the President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles and next in line to succeed Wilford Woodruff as Prophet, Seer and Revelator and President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He relates:

Salt Lake Temple Corridor For some time President Woodruff’s health had been failing. Nearly every evening President Lorenzo Snow visited him at his home. This particular evening the doctors said that President Woodruff could not live much longer, that he was becoming weaker every day. President Snow was greatly worried. We cannot realize today what a terrible financial condition the Church was in at that time—owing millions of dollars and not being able to pay even the interest on its indebtedness.

LeRoi went on to relate that his father repaired to the Salt Lake Temple and,

. . . there plead to the Lord to spare President Woodruff’s life, that President Woodruff might outlive him and that the great responsibility of Church leadership would not fall upon his shoulders. Yet he promised the Lord that he would devotedly perform any duty required at his hands. . . .

. . . [On 2 September 1898, after receiving word of the death of Wilford Woodruff, President Snow] went to his private room in the Salt Lake Temple.


While in the temple, President Snow

. . . poured out his heart to the Lord. He reminded the Lord how he plead for President Woodruff’s life to be spared, that President Woodruff’s days would be lengthened beyond his own; that he might never be called upon to bear the heavy burdens and responsibilities of the Church. “Nevertheless,” he said, “Thy will be done. I have not sought this responsibility but if it be Thy will, I now present myself before Thee for Thy guidance and instruction. I ask that Thou show me what Thou wouldst have me do.”

After finishing his prayer he expected a reply, some special manifestation from the Lord. So he waited,—and waited—and waited. There was no reply, no voice, no visitation, no manifestation. He left the . . . room in great disappointment. Passing through the Celestial room and out into the large corridor a glorious manifestation was given President Snow which I relate in the words of his grand-daughter, Allie Young Pond. . . .

According to President Lorenzo Snow’s granddaughter:

"Alice Armeda Snow Young Pond One evening while I was visiting grandpa Snow in his room in the Salt Lake Temple, I remained until the door keepers had gone and the night-watchmen had not yet come in, so grand-pa said he would take me to the main front entrance and let me out that way. He got his bunch of keys from his dresser. After we left his room and while we were still in the large corridor leading into the celestial room, I was walking several steps ahead of grand-pa when he stopped me and said: “Wait a moment, Allie, I want to tell you something. It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff.”

Then grandpa came a step nearer and held out his left hand and said: “He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though He stood on a plate of solid gold.” Grand-pa told me what a glorious personage the Savior is and described His hands, feet, countenance and beautiful white robes, all of which were of such a glory of whiteness and brightness that he could hardly gaze upon Him.

Then he came another step nearer and put his right hand on my head and said: “Now, grand-daughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grand-father, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the Temple, and talked with Him face to face.”

User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

"There is no scriptural basis for the idea that witnesses are prevented from witnessing. If President Faust did indeed receive or have a vision of the Lord, he couldn't have based his refusal to testify on scripture. There are limits to what a person could reveal, but there is much that can be said working within those bounds."

Really, how many times have you seen in scripture that to paraphrase, "the spirit stoppeth mine utterance" because the people are too wicked to hear more? When Christ performed miracles, he commanded that they tell no one.

Those that have the spirit can determine the testimony of our modern apostles. I have had it witness to me a couple of times that a couple of them have seen the Lord.

User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

I just read Snuffer's post here: http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/ ... itics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think with that post, he just lost most of the support I gave him. Why? I feel the spirit when I hear the apostles and prophets speak, for the most part. I felt no spirit in that blog post. What I saw was anger at the Brethren for the position he is in. Perhaps he's having his Oliver Cowdery moment. Too bad.

a_member
captain of 100
Posts: 252

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by a_member »

I quoted it in another thread but I think it's relevant here too:

Jacob 5:65-66

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.
This process is happening in the Church, and has been practically since the beginning. The "pruning" is taking place as the Church itself becomes a better institution, as its members become stronger, and as the good within the Church and its membership improve to the point where issues in the past can be dealt with in a forthright manner without destroying people's testimonies. The Lord wants to preserve the trees, He doesn't want to burn anything that doesn't absolutely need to be burned, so I think He's fairly conservative with change in order to keep as many people on the path as possible, even when that means not immediately correcting mistakes made by leadership or anyone else. To me, this makes a lot of sense as it's a far more compassionate view of the Church and its members (and its leadership, and the rest of the world for that matter) than we may otherwise be inclined to hold.

Thomas
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4622

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Thomas »

pjbrownie wrote: His outlining of post Joseph Smith prophetic visionary lack was unbalanced He focused heavily on statements made by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and J. Reuben Clark as prophets who denied, even eschewed divine experiences. He completely neglects Joseph F. Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Matthew Cowley, and others, who have claimed to see Jesus, who have had divine and miraculous experiences attend them. His argument about the lack of visionary experiences was not fully fleshed out. Lack of evidence of divine experiences among our more recent apostles does not mean they DON'T have them - they may be pressed not to share - and that may be precisely because we are under condemnation!
In the OP you stated Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith had claimed to see Christ.


LeRoi went on to relate that his father repaired to the Salt Lake Temple and,

. . . there plead to the Lord to spare President Woodruff’s life, that President Woodruff might outlive him and that the great responsibility of Church leadership would not fall upon his shoulders. Yet he promised the Lord that he would devotedly perform any duty required at his hands. . .

. . . [On 2 September 1898, after receiving word of the death of Wilford Woodruff, President Snow] went to his private room in the Salt Lake Temple While in the temple, President Snow

. . . poured out his heart to the Lord. He reminded the Lord how he plead for President Woodruff’s life to be spared, that President Woodruff’s days would be lengthened beyond his own; that he might never be called upon to bear the heavy burdens and responsibilities of the Church. “Nevertheless,” he said, “Thy will be done. I have not sought this responsibility but if it be Thy will, I now present myself before Thee for Thy guidance and instruction. I ask that Thou show me what Thou wouldst have me do.”

After finishing his prayer he expected a reply, some special manifestation from the Lord. So he waited,—and waited—and waited. There was no reply, no voice, no visitation, no manifestation. He left the . . . room in great disappointment. Passing through the Celestial room and out into the large corridor a glorious manifestation was given President Snow which I relate in the words of his grand-daughter, Allie Young Pond.
This was not Snow making the claim. It is was his grandchildren making the claim, after he was dead.

There is no claim made By Joseph F Smith of seeing the Savior.

User avatar
TZONE
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1724

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by TZONE »

pjbrownie wrote:I just read Snuffer's post here: http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/ ... itics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think with that post, he just lost most of the support I gave him. Why? I feel the spirit when I hear the apostles and prophets speak, for the most part. I felt no spirit in that blog post. What I saw was anger at the Brethren for the position he is in. Perhaps he's having his Oliver Cowdery moment. Too bad.
I also hear the spirit when a methodist preacher preaches about jesus Christ. Just sayin. happened many times as missonary that I would feel the spirit at non-denominational activities.
But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.
What does it even mean if someone has seen Christ?

There are tons of non members who have seen christ.

Here you go.

http://stevesimms.wordpress.com/2011/03 ... our-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know two people in Nashville who have literally seen Jesus. One woman grew up a Muslim in Baghdad. She was arrested under Saddam, imprisoned, and tortured and raped daily for months. Finally, in desperation she cried out, “God, whoever you are, please help me!” When she opened her eyes she saw Jesus literally standing in front of her. The next day a guard sneaked her out of prison and released her at the Jordanian border.

Another woman I know in Nashville grew up Jewish living in Jerusalem. She was taught that Jesus caused the Holocaust and she didn’t want anything to do with Him. However, as a young adult Jesus appeared to her several times. She finally accepted Him as her Messiah and passionately loves and serves Him today.
Apparently there is something missing.

User avatar
TZONE
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1724

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by TZONE »

Another review of DS.

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/11/ ... t-in-town/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
AnthonyR
captain of 100
Posts: 212

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by AnthonyR »

TZONE wrote: http://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/11/ ... t-in-town/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After reading this, there is so much I could mimick with what he has expressed. I have chosen a paragraph to quote which explains my own feelings.
I feel like Joseph Smith when he said, “I had seen a vision, I knew it and God knew it. How could I deny it?” (paraphrasing) You can tell me I’m deluded, that I’ve been deceived – join the crowd – but that will not change the fact that the Lord has told me over and over that the man cut off by our church for apostasy was simply doing what he was asked to do by a kind and loving Savior. I am like Brigham Young. I studied this for nearly two years. The witness only grows stronger.
I have been witnessed to multiple times what part of Denver's calling is. If a man refuses to accept what is being offered, he is rejecting a prophets voice. I, like Tim Malone agree that God has chosen a messenger with no church authority to deliver a message. He is a man whom God has called and ordained Himself.

At the recent Logan talk on repentance, my heart was on fire. There was so much power in his words that what was being said was written in my heart. The spirit of God bore witness to me that evening that this is a prophet of God sent to help prepare some for Zion. At one point in n his talk I was in the act of worshipping my God in my heart, and at that moment Denver looked into my eyes as he was delivering the message. I have never felt anyone's piercing glance sear into my soul as his did. I cannot put any of this into words sufficient to deliver what was experienced.

Joseph Smith has flaws, Denver Snuffer has flaws. But with what God has revealed to me about Snuffer, I cannot offer any criticism to any of his works. The same way i cannot criticize Joseph. PTHG is an extremely uplifting book which helps a man draw close to God. PTHG will help point a man in the right direction.

I will be ridiculed for what I have shared. But...fools mock, but they shall mourne when these truths are unfolded unto their understanding.

My own revelation is that Denver is a modern day Enoch, Abinadi, & Nephi. If this is true, then PTHG deserves a thorough, prayerful, heartfelt study of its pages and not just a glancing read with criticism. Of course one would NEED this revelation as I have received to come to these conclusions.

The man has not just come into contact with God, he has covenanted face to face with Him. He is as Nephi in 3rd Nephi who posesses the sealing power only given by the hand of God.

These are some of my experiences and thoughts. Do with them as you please.

Anthony Richmond

User avatar
Hyrcanus
captain of 100
Posts: 716

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Hyrcanus »

Facing East wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote:I don't want to misrepresent President Faust, but he said something to the effect of larger gatherings not always being appropriate for sharing, due to the exposure the comments may receive.
There is no scriptural basis for the idea that witnesses are prevented from witnessing. If President Faust did indeed receive or have a vision of the Lord, he couldn't have based his refusal to testify on scripture. There are limits to what a person could reveal, but there is much that can be said working within those bounds.
President Faust never claimed any scriptural basis for this particular view. The way I personally understood what he was saying, although he didn't say this explicitly, was that relating a personal appearance of the Savior in events that had wide media coverage (like General Conference) may not have the desired effect. When he said that, I recall thinking of a line in Elder Maxwell's biography where he was lamenting that an Apostle could barely say anything without it being picked up in the newspapers and broadcasted much more broadly then intended, often out of context and absent the spirit. Anyway, all of that is my personal take, so take it with a healthy dose of salt.

User avatar
Matthew.B
captain of 100
Posts: 877
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Matthew.B »

pjbrownie-

Thank you for taking the time to review PTHG. After my own reading, I have come to the conclusion that the book was aimed at a very specific demographic of people and addresses some very prevalent "traditions of our fathers" that are not correct, and that need to be abandoned for a Mormon to move forward and learn of the doctrine and religion that Jospeh Smith returned.

Because of that, it's understandable if he brushed over the reasons for the original condemnation for disregarding the Book of Mormon and focused on the Nauvoo events-- the 1832 condemnation is widespread knowledge among those who are earnestly seeking the Lord, but the idea that the Saints failed in building the Nauvoo temple and are cursed because of it flies in the face of our traditions.

It also make sense that he focuses on comments from early leaders about not receiving revelation. Again, revelatory experiences are assumed the norm among Church leaders, with common beliefs on the subject ranging from "every GA has heard the voice of God at least once" to "Pres. Monson dines with Christ every Thursday at lunch". Information presented on presidents and apostles regarding the relative lack of revelation in leading the Church serves as a counterbalance, and food for thought. The serious seeker will find the examples of revelation guiding the Church; those examples are much easier to find in our current Church culture.

What Denver has done with everything he's written and said, is to "jump-start" the awakening process that is required in the lives of many of the members who want it. That process can be long and drawn out without a concentrated source of guidance. That awakening process is also absolutely vital. The rising generation (and, arguably, the one before it) is so enmeshed in the philosophies and sorceries (read: pharmaceuticals) of Babylon that the Church has become infected with those things as well. There is a danger of falling away from the Truth, and a belief in our own Church's inerrancy or the inerrancy of our leaders only heightens that danger.

I agree with Denver's belief about the danger of correlation. Originally, it was only meant to "correlate" the study topics for the various Church auxiliaries, but it has grown to encompass virtually every aspect of the Church, and it is far too easy for "the Correlated [handbook/manual]" to trump the Spirit in guiding decisions on a local level. The Church culture is moving towards a belief that any topic or study outside of the "approved" materials is treading on dangerous ground. Combine that with an ever-narrowing field of what topics are "approved", and you have a recipe for creeping apostasy.

I agree with you that we are in a "preparatory" phase. I think what happens with the Church will be largely decided by the aggregate faithfulness of the members. As in all phases of change, there's a possibility of things getting better or worse. Both the wheat and the tares are maturing, and it feels like there's a battle raging for the destiny of the LDS Church. Some recent developments are ominous, like the articles on controversial topics being released on the LDS.org website. Some recent developments are hopeful, like the initiative to encourage Sunday School teachers to teach as the Savior did, more by the spirit and less by the book.

At the end of the day, I think Denver is providing a very useful service from the Lord, and the target audience will be very, very blessed because of it.

eyes2see
captain of 10
Posts: 16

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by eyes2see »

Another review for your consideration:

http://rationalfaiths.com/requiem-apostate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the interest of full disclosure, I have not read Passing the Heavenly Gift and simply thought the review, which was sent to me by a friend, might be of interest to members of the forum.

User avatar
pjbrownie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3070
Location: Mount Pleasant, Utah

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by pjbrownie »

I would be much happier with Snuffer if he offered his writings for free. Just saying.

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by boo »

lemuel wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Just by way of personal experiences, I personally heard James E. Faust relate a personal visitation by the Savior he had in a leadership meeting he had in our stake. I know he related the same in other meetings, as I've seen other references to this floated around online.
Good to hear from Faust. He was a good man. I believe it. I wish we heard more of that type of thing. To me, that's the concern, that these kinds of testimonies are hid under a bushel. It's hard to believe a testimony we've never heard.
I have searched for this but have been unable to find anything about it. Any help would be appreciated

User avatar
Matthew.B
captain of 100
Posts: 877
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Matthew.B »

pjbrownie wrote:I would be much happier with Snuffer if he offered his writings for free. Just saying.
I've wondered about this, and I wonder if actually paying for something increases its value to you. Everything comes with some kind of price-- whether it be money, or labor, or just your time. I wonder if paying a slightly higher price for a book will increase its intrinsic worth to you.

Much of his stuff can be found free, and you can find every book of his under $10 on Kindle (except PTHG, which isn't on Kindle). Can the same be said for the plethora of writings from other GA's? Not to say Denver is better than the GA's, but it's a common practice to put a price on scriptural commentary from people. And he does offer everything except the books for free, and claims he makes no money from the proceeds of the books.

One final thought: if things do get really bad soon, if we lose electricity than electronics will be the first thing to go. A paper copy of a book will outlast an electronic (free) copy any day of the week.

User avatar
Hyrcanus
captain of 100
Posts: 716

Re: Review of Passing the Heavenly Gift

Post by Hyrcanus »

boo wrote:
lemuel wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Just by way of personal experiences, I personally heard James E. Faust relate a personal visitation by the Savior he had in a leadership meeting he had in our stake. I know he related the same in other meetings, as I've seen other references to this floated around online.
Good to hear from Faust. He was a good man. I believe it. I wish we heard more of that type of thing. To me, that's the concern, that these kinds of testimonies are hid under a bushel. It's hard to believe a testimony we've never heard.
I have searched for this but have been unable to find anything about it. Any help would be appreciated
I just saw one the other day actually, I don't recall where. I haven't documented the other references. I think I already said this, but take any anecdote from me or anyone else with a heavy dose of salt.

Post Reply